what was being somali in the early 2010s in uk or Europe like for you?

[Leonardo7373]

particularly for genz folks

 

[yeawhynot]

well here in scandinavia the early 2010s was when the older gen z started to become teenagers and that coincided with rise in somalis in gangs and overrepresentation in crime.

 

[wonyluvr]

particularly for genz folks

I was a baby

 

[Sigmundd]

I never grew up with Somalis in the 2010s but if we are talking the 00s then I would say we were more united little to no ajanabis butting in or knowing our business. It was a much better time compared to now where younger generation of Somalis are much more divided, there's little unity and ajanabis are everywhere in our business. Oh how the mighty has fallen.

 

[yeawhynot]

I never grew up with Somalis in the 2010s but if we are talking the 00s then I would say we were more united little to no ajanabis butting in or knowing our business. It was a much better time compared to now where younger generation of Somalis are much more divided, there's little unity and ajanabis are everywhere in our business. Oh how the mighty has fallen.

yea thats another thing. back then no one even heard of somalis other than on the newschannelonce in a while

 

[Sigmundd]

yea thats another thing. back then no one even heard of somalis other than on the newschannelonce in a while

Yeah our community was not known. Even our dugsi only had somalis. somali boys and girls weren't awkward together like they are now. Our conversations flowed well. I really miss those days.

 

[Idilinaa]

well here in scandinavia the early 2010s was when the older gen z started to become teenagers and that coincided with rise in somalis in gangs and overrepresentation in crime.

Sweden does not equal the whole of Scandinavia. They are not operational monolith countries. So gangs are mostly an issue concentrated there for policy reasons.

Norway doesn't really have Swedish gang culture or struggles with rampant gang crime, high rates of crime or gun crime, knifing etc similarly with Denmark although they fear the Swedish exportation of it.

The only real organized gangs you will see in Norway is mostly norwegian Biker gangs that move cross nationally that have existed for decades.

https://ocindex.net/assets/downloads/2023/english/ocindex_profile_norway_2023.pdf

From papers i have read online and on reddit, Norway has had a seperate immigration policy than Sweden and a different housing market than them. Sweden lump assylum seekers/low income immigrants into the same areas that eventually form into ghettos, whereas norway seperate asysylum/refugees that arrive into different muncipalities and cities and they are assigned to and have no say on choosing where to live.

The housing markets are also different . Sweden has housing for the poor but Norway doesn't. So there is no real segregated concentration of poor ethnic people living in the same areas which is what creates the hotbed of gang and crime activity.

More is explained under this reddit thread:

I also think the question @Leonardo7373 is posing is too broad and given to generalizations. As Somalis lived experiences might differ from country to country and even differ within the same country depending on where you live within it, but also the same goes for crime and employment rates its not constant through out.. A Somali who lives in a different city, neighborhood, urban V countryside is going to have different outcomes and experiences.

Lets continue with Norway as an example to demonstrate this. A Somali that lives outside the bad and crowded urban areas of Oslo is underrepresented in crime and in municipalities like Hammerfest for example they have very high employment rates

Whats the difference? the policies, neighborhood quality, urbanism and labour market etc . It probably is the same for the UK, Sweden or other European countries

 

[Spongebob]

particularly for genz folks

Honestly in the UK I can't say people knew Somalis at all, so we were just put in the same basket with Madhows.

 

[yeawhynot]

Sweden does not equal the whole of Scandinavia. They are not operational monolith countries. So gangs are mostly an issue concentrated there for policy reasons.


I also think the question @Leonardo7373 is posing is too broad and given to generalizations. As Somalis lived experiences might differ from country to country and even differ within the same country depending on where you live within it, but also the same goes for crime and employment rates its not constant through out.. A Somali who lives in a different city, neighborhood, urban V countryside is going to have different outcomes and experiences.

Lets continue with Norway as an example to demonstrate this. A Somali that lives outside the bad and crowded urban areas of Oslo is underrepresented in crime and in municipalities like Hammerfest for example they have very high employment rates
View attachment 351396
View attachment 351397

Whats the difference? the policies, neighborhood quality, urbanism and labour market etc . It probably is the same for the UK, Sweden or other European countries

im from denmark and i can tell you over here were unanimously the most hated on ethnicity by the media in regards to crime and employment rates. we might not be having gunblazing gangbangers in norway and denmark but our crimerates are still top of the list alongside other muslim immigrant groups.

 

[wheel]

im from denmark and i can tell you over here were unanimously the most hated on ethnicity by the media in regards to crime and employment rates. we might not be having gunblazing gangbangers in norway and denmark but our crimerates are still top of the list alongside other muslim immigrant groups.

Makes no sense importing hundreds of thousands of foreigners whom they share little with and then demonizing them.

 

[Kisame]

Sweden does not equal the whole of Scandinavia. They are not operational monolith countries. So gangs are mostly an issue concentrated there for policy reasons.


I also think the question @Leonardo7373 is posing is too broad and given to generalizations. As Somalis lived experiences might differ from country to country and even differ within the same country depending on where you live within it, but also the same goes for crime and employment rates its not constant through out.. A Somali who lives in a different city, neighborhood, urban V countryside is going to have different outcomes and experiences.

Lets continue with Norway as an example to demonstrate this. A Somali that lives outside the bad and crowded urban areas of Oslo is underrepresented in crime and in municipalities like Hammerfest for example they have very high employment rates
View attachment 351396
View attachment 351397

Whats the difference? the policies, neighborhood quality, urbanism and labour market etc . It probably is the same for the UK, Sweden or other European countries

Would most of our criminals be somalis raised in the inner cities???

 

[Kisame]

im from denmark and i can tell you over here were unanimously the most hated on ethnicity by the media in regards to crime and employment rates. we might not be having gunblazing gangbangers in norway and denmark but our crimerates are still top of the list alongside other muslim immigrant groups.

Makes no sense importing hundreds of thousands of foreigners whom they share little with and then demonizing them.

Scandinavia seems like a paradise for poor refugees. They have the best welfare programs in the west. Free college, free healthcare and etc. I'm honestly surprised we don't hear about Scandinavian Somali success stories that often. Everyone talks about Minnesota but what about Sweden, Denmark, or Norway???

By default they should be the most educated somalis in the diaspora.

 

[Aseer]

I dont think I was sentient back then during those times.

 

[gasara]

You need to ask the Millennials. Cuz the kids born in 2000 were just 10.

 

[wheel]

Scandinavia seems like a paradise for poor refugees. They have the best welfare programs in the west. Free college, free healthcare and etc. I'm honestly surprised we don't hear about Scandinavian Somali success stories that often. Everyone talks about Minnesota but what about Sweden, Denmark, or Norway???

By default they should be the most educated somalis in the diaspora.

Many get raised in ghettoes like in sweden, also somalis dont do well in environments where everything gets handed to them on a silver platter; they grow lazy and complacent.

 

[LilBang]

You need to ask the Millennials. Cuz the kids born in 2000 were just 10.

They were talking about the early 10s fyi (2010-2013)

 

[Idilinaa]

im from denmark and i can tell you over here were unanimously the most hated on ethnicity by the media in regards to crime and employment rates. we might not be having gunblazing gangbangers in norway and denmark but our crimerates are still top of the list alongside other muslim immigrant groups.

I doubt you are from Denmark or even Scandinavia seeing that you speak of it as some united monolith block of countries.

Certain individuals on this forum really have a grudge against Somalis to the point they start cosplaying to dove tail to far neo-nazi talking points. Don't even fact check them, just come to the forum to report and reiterate them

Far right media attacks immigrants in general with fake or misleading stats but it doesn't mean a single group is unanimously hated or inherently problematic.

 

[Idilinaa]

Would most of our criminals be somalis raised in the inner cities???

@The alchemist broke it down

Crime amongst Somalis is not a general ethnic trend but an urban-specific phenomenon that is highly disproportional within the same ethnic group when one checks for geographic placement. Somalis have a relatively low crime rate outside sub-sections of larger urbanized cities.

Strange sociological factors warp crime-related behavior in specific clusters of highly dense places beyond what can be explained as a "Somali" (ethnocentric) problem. It is a local issue, that when one inspects other immigrant groups of the same place that partakes in the same realm of socio-economi-spatialcultural dimensions, the rates of crime follow a similar uneven spike.

I grew up in a city where Somalis were never known for crime, but then you had other inner city regions that had such a reputation and a few Somalis lived there. The issue has nothing to do with Somali culture or upbringing. It has more to do with the street culture that is adopted by these kids which is in fact extremely foreign to our mores, a completely Western phenomenon (this is what racists will never admit, some of them are so desperate they want to associate everything with Islam it is ridiculous), in specific places in the largest cities (mainly Oslo).

These people misuse statistics by checking those unusually high crime areas and then saying, "4 out of 10 Somalis are criminals" (more like closer to 50%) to sensationalize and then generalize all Somalis to these false numbers (as I will go deeper into) as a general reflection of the average Somali citizen. It's fraudulent.

From a previous, larger undertaking, SSB showed how they did exactly what I said:

"Med utgangspunkt i denne informasjonen lager vi variabler som fanger opp de seks største byene og landsdeler for øvrig."

On the source itself, they admit they have not calibrated the data because the points are overrepresented by kids and extremely underrepresented data for adults for the section that was born in the country. They deliberately did not control for these factors for a very good reason. FRP, a right-wing anti-immigrant political group specifically requested these numbers from the SSB.

Here they claimed they tried to control for them in a previous data representation, but certainly can't because of the constraints in the data. You cannot force calibrations. It makes the data un-recognizable since the parameters have to be brute forced, hypothesized:

"Særlig norskfødte med innvandrerforeldre har en spesiell demografisk struktur, med mange veldig unge og nesten ingen veldig gamle. De samlede ratene uten noen kontroll for kjønn og alder gir derfor et lite relevant sammenligningsgrunnlag hvis man ønsker å si noe om hva innvandrerbakgrunn i seg selv har å si for registrert kriminalitet. I tabellene publisert her er det ikke gjort en fullstendig justering for kjønn og alder, men egne rater er oppgitt for menn i alderen 15–24 år, som gir mer sammenlignbare tall."

Everything I said is admitted by SSB. Namely, certain communities in certain cities represent many of the offenses:

"Det betyr at enkelte miljøer og personer kan stå for mange av lovbruddene."

When these people write "Somali," they are obscuring the truth of the cause of these issues (because they don't want to fix the problems), so they can reinforce anti-immigration propaganda. That is all the latest numbers are about. They are purposely misleading.

The issue with Somalis is that the statistics are taken from urban cities, and we generally live in the worst places in those cities. So more often than not, you're not getting rich data variability. But if you take data from regions that are less urban-dense, you'll see a drastic decrease in crime-related activities amongst the youth.

They clearly display knowledge about the fundamental weaknesses:

"En opplagt årsak til forskjeller i andelen gjerningspersoner både blant innvandrere og øvrig befolkning, på tvers av landbakgrunn og innvandringsgrunn, er at befolkningsgruppene er ulikt sammensatt både med hensyn til kjønn, alder og sosioøkonomiske kjennetegn (se kapittel 1 og 2). Helt sentralt her er at unge menn vesentlig oftere begår lovbrudd enn andre grupper. Det er følgelig rimelig å forvente at befolkningsgrupper med en stor andel unge menn er overrepresentert i kriminalstatistikken nettopp fordi de består av en større andel unge menn."

Here, instead of getting relevant data or actually just admitting the right data metrics could not give adequate explanatory dimensions, this separate report used some regression model to falsely portray a hypothetical instead of measuring the correct values for other conditions:

"De justerte andelene kan tolkes som hva andelen gjerningspersoner i hver befolkningsgruppe hadde vært dersom gruppene hadde hatt samme sosiodemografiske fordeling som øvrig befolkning på noen gitte variabler."

It shows how these data reports are very limited and cannot be trusted as being representative values.

However, SSB is making a very bizarre claim, namely that where most crime concentration occurs among immigrants is marginally different from other places in the country, so not worthy of presenting the data. This is a pure lie for Somalis, something that is admitted by their worker too.

Studies have shown that these conditional elements are a huge factor:

"In particular, we find that all three strategies for distinguishing between immigrant groups—by similar racial/ethnic categories, by areas or regions of the world that immigrants emigrate from, and by where immigrants co-locate once they settle in the US—explained levels of neighborhood crime better than the traditional approach of including only a measure of the percent foreign-born in the neighborhood. These findings underscore the necessity of disaggregating immigrant groups when exploring the immigration–crime relationship."

These people are really out here thinking people are so stupid believing a city with a 30,000 population size presents the same crime rate as dense immigrant sections, of let's say, Oslo... That might be correct for certain demographics. Not for Somalis.

And that is why I know these actors have a bias in portraying us in certain light, instead of giving an accurate picture.

The thing is, immigrants who are searching for asylum or illegal immigrants who are undocumented make up for a very low crime rate:

"Det foreligger to rapporter som omhandler asylsøkeres, utlendinger uten lovlig opphold og andre utlendingers kriminalitet (Mohn og Ellingsen, 2016; Politidirektoratet, 2004; Stene, 2004), og hovedkonklusjonen er at asylsøkere og utlendinger med ulovlig opphold står for en veldig liten del av kriminalitetsbildet, men det er rimelig å anslå at det er noe overrepresentasjon sammenlignet med den bosatte befolkningen (Mohn og Ellingsen, 2016)."

This number is consistent with statistics I have seen of the American illegal immigrant population that have a lower crime rate than the national average. So I don't think the notion that people larping as Somalis spike the numbers. They could do so after they settle but to be honest, how much of those are relevant to the values we see?

By the way, what these people did on top of that was misrepresent the data by making it seem like 1000 people when in reality they shot up the values based on repeat offenders. This means that if one person commits several crimes, those numbers are included -- all of them -- yet on the numbers, and how the data is presented to the public, it seems like actually 40% of Somalis do crime (nearly 50% of Somalis are criminals!). On top of the variable I showed above of honing on unrepresentative places, they could easily have spiked the values by more than 200% on average (even within the places that are un-representative), making it seem that it is out of 1000 people when in reality it is crimes committed in certain high crime areas where each offender are registered for their recurring crime history. It could theoretically be over 2000/1000. This is pure garbage propaganda by FRP.

We have SSB making a commentary on this:

"Blant annet at de ikke viser til en andel av personer i ulike befolkningsgrupper som har blitt siktet, men antallet straffbare forhold knyttet til personer i de ulike befolkningsgruppene."

It is about how many crimes one person commits... You see the problem when they later say "400/1000" Somalis do crime, presenting it as 400 people out of 1000. In truth it is, likely an extremely high crime area, that has an extreme disproportion of youth since most of these are kids (remember, the national average has mostly adults being the bulk of the population - that is not the case for us. Our parental-age adults probably do not differ, or even maybe commit less crime than the average Norwegian, without conditioning the multivariate factors how, other cities outside the biggest ones, have way less crime. Then they erroneously put the name "Somali" beside the unrepresentative, highly skewed number that is present as if 1 out of 1000 represents one person.

SSB admits this:

"Tabellene over antallet siktelser knyttet til personer med innvandrerbakgrunn angir vel å merke ikke andelen personer i ulike befolkningsgrupper som har blitt siktet i årene 2020–2023, men antallet straffbare forhold knyttet til personer i de ulike befolkningsgruppene. Det er derfor mulig med flere siktelser enn det er personer i en angitt befolkningsgruppe. Få personer kan også stå for majoriteten av lovbruddene (se tekstboks over). Det er også oppdaterte tall for antall lovbrudd per siktede i løpet av ett år (gjennomsnitt for 2021–2023)."

They litterely say "få personer kan også stå for majoriteten av lovbruddene" - litterally telling it how it

 

[Idilinaa]

More on this.

You guys need to stop posting things without fact-checking. If you cannot do that then I don't think you should have the right to do so because you don't have the basic knowledge or motivation to qualify what is being said. You look like a fool who serves as a tool to spread misinformation, bringing false notions by racists that make it their sole mission (I'm not exaggerating) to bring Somalis down.

It is a fact that some places in Oslo are the bulk of this. Instead of treating that place as what it is, a unique section, they rather demonize Somalis, because this fits into the anti-immigration project of FRP. No one can deny those places are rife with crime among the youth. It has to be fixed and taken seriously. Still, that is not representative, and neither is it what these racists want. They are motivated by xenophobic objectives. They clearly don't care if they use data like this, trying to tarnish a people's reputation, trying to invoke an immigration scare among the population.

And to underscore my point again, one SSB worker named Oslo itself, again showed how I am right in how they hyperfocused on specific values from there, urban-dense areas with different socioeconomic issues:

"– Dette sier ikke noe om hvor mange lovbrudd hver unge somaliske mann i Oslo begår. Det er noen få personer som kan stå bak mange siktelser, sier hun til NRK."

The person also, says it is not a scaled average number of the average Somali, even within Oslo. The data represents how many crimes one person does, which skews the values extremely.

They also point out that crime and drug-related crime are represented among those overrepresented people, but Somalis even in those areas are underrepresented when it comes to sexual crimes:

"Der unge somaliske menn i Oslo får flere siktelser på seg for blant annet vold, rus og ordensforstyrrelser, er de underrepresentert når det for eksempel gjelder seksuallovbrudd."

This is noteworthy because Muslim immigrant men raping white blonde women were a big stereotype for the anti-immigrant crowd. For what it is worth, we're not presented highly there, even in the disproportional places where such crime should be higher than normal.

These people went to the place with the uniquely high-risk factors, tweaked the conditions fundamentally to skew the numbers further, did not adequately control for the demographics within that, and then had the audacity to say, "This is the average Somali."

And for those idiots who want to come here with their self-hate garbage, it's not about excusing crime. It's about lies peddled and how we cannot stand for propaganda that tries to mess up our reputation in general, which will reflect upon the well-being of the people going into the future. One crime done is one too many. Those places need to be fixed, but you can stop the crap if you want to internalize that nearly 1/2 of Somalis are criminals. You're an idiot at that point.

There are issues with the nitty-gritty of how the numbers are registered, though I think that is much more marginal with regards to police work and the judges with how the numbers are represented relative to what I mentioned above which is the main problem in the data representation. Certainly, there are issues in how certain areas are policed and how quickly people are willing to write up crimes, nevertheless, those places are under the reinforcement cycle habits because they are higher crime rate areas. No matter, it is local. The data is not represented as such. They changed rules and spiked them further. Then put a whole ethnic name beside it as if was a country-wide trend. That is the issue.