When did Somalis adopt the Indonesian sarong?

[Riftvalley]

Bruh if you guys haven’t been to Malaysia or Indonesia fadlan just do some research.

There has been exhaustive research done on the impact of Yemeni traders in that area.

Not everything is “bootyclapping”.

Impact is different from saying “many Indonesians have Yemeni heritage”. I doubt genetic testing shows that. It’s no different to Somalis claiming Yemeni heritage to link themselves to Quraish.

 

[Lightshow]

It probably originated with us. We are a people with amnesia.

Land of Punt circa 2500BC!

 

[Periplus]

Impact is different from saying “many Indonesians have Yemeni heritage”. I doubt genetic testing shows that. It’s no different to Somalis claiming Yemeni heritage to link themselves to Quraish.

I said many, not most.

There’s tens of thousands of Indonesians, Singaporeans and Malaysians that are of Hadrami ancestry.

That’s nothing compared their combined population of 300 million across the three countries.

You shouldn’t get butthurt over a simple comment.

 

[Periplus]

It probably originated with us. We are a people with amnesia.

Land of Punt circa 2500BC!

I think Somalis didn’t get the macawis from anyone. But I think Indonesian/Malays got it from Yemen.

It’s very simple.

 

[World]

I think Somalis didn’t get the macawis from anyone. But I think Indonesian/Malays got it from Yemen.

It’s very simple.

Yemen cotton production: 5000 ton annually

India is the largest cotton producer in the world, at 6 million tons. Guess which Indian state has the largest cotton production? Gujurat, at 2.75 million tonnes.

Why on earth would Indonesia, Somalia, or Malaysia go to Yemen which barely produces cotton for macawiis, when Gujurat is right there? Adjusted for population, it produces 275x more cotton per capita than Yemen.

 

[Periplus]

Yemen cotton production: 5000 ton annually

India is the largest cotton producer in the world, at 6 million tons. Guess which Indian state has the largest cotton production? Gujurat, at 2.75 million tonnes.

View attachment 339527

Why on earth would Indonesia, Somalia, or Malaysia go to Yemen which barely produces cotton for macawiis, when Gujurat is right there? Adjusted for population, it produces 275x more cotton per capita than Yemen.

When did I say that they bought the cotton from India?

All I said was the original clothing was introduced to them by Yemeni traders who had a presence in each major island in Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore.

There is quite literally a difference between the Indian inspired Balinese Sarong (which is worn by Hindus in Malaysia/Indonesia) and the Muslim Sarong (worn by Muslims).

If my memory serves correct, the Hadramawtis were one of the first set up shop in Malaysia/Indonesia.

Also Indians in Malaysia/Singapore/Indonesia generally hail from Tamil Nadu, which is Hindu but very culturally different to Gujurat.

This is why Tamil is an official language in Singapore.

 

[World]

When did I say that they bought the cotton from India?

All I said was the original clothing was introduced to them by Yemeni traders who had a presence in each major island in Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore.

There is quite literally a difference between the Indian inspired Balinese Sarong (which is worn by Hindus in Malaysia/Indonesia) and the Muslim Sarong (worn by Muslims).

If my memory serves correct, the Hadramawtis were one of the first set up shop in Malaysia/Indonesia.

Also Indians in Malaysia/Singapore/Indonesia generally hail from Tamil Nadu, which is Hindu but very culturally different to Gujurat.

This is why Tamil is an official language in Singapore.

Well the macawiis/sarong is made from cotton, so how exactly did a small region in Yemen that doesn’t produce cotton, introduce it to 300 million people? Where did Southern Yemenis get the supply from? Bear in mind, both Malaysia and Indonesia have thousands of years old trade links with Gujurat, that produces nearly half of India’s cotton.

So are you saying that Yemenis were the middle man between Indonesia and Gujurat textile industry?

 

[World]

When did I say that they bought the cotton from India?

All I said was the original clothing was introduced to them by Yemeni traders who had a presence in each major island in Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore.

There is quite literally a difference between the Indian inspired Balinese Sarong (which is worn by Hindus in Malaysia/Indonesia) and the Muslim Sarong (worn by Muslims).

If my memory serves correct, the Hadramawtis were one of the first set up shop in Malaysia/Indonesia.

Also Indians in Malaysia/Singapore/Indonesia generally hail from Tamil Nadu, which is Hindu but very culturally different to Gujurat.

This is why Tamil is an official language in Singapore.

Genetically, Indonesians and Malaysians have substantial Indian influence on average, but they don’t have any Arab ancestry.

 

[Periplus]

So are you saying that Yemenis were the middle man between Indonesia and Gujurat textile industry?

No I am saying the Yemeni traders that propagated Islam in Indonesia were wearing macawis and koofiyad. The locals saw it, copied it and bought it from India.

Genetically, Indonesians and Malaysians have substantial Indian influence on average, but they don’t have any Arab ancestry

Yes, true, I am not arguing with you there.

I never said that Hadramawtis in Malaysia and Indonesia are so numerous. I just said that they made Islam dominant (not introduce as that is debated) and introduced the Shafici madhab, coffee and Islamic dress.

 

[World]

No I am saying the Yemeni traders that propagated Islam in Indonesia were wearing macawis and koofiyad. The locals saw it, copied it and bought it from India.




Yes, true, I am not arguing with you there.

I never said that Hadramawtis in Malaysia and Indonesia are so numerous. I just said that they made Islam dominant (not introduce as that is debated) and introduced the Shafici madhab, coffee and Islamic dress.

So… the Indonesians who were trading with India the entire time didn’t feel the need to copy the macawis from them, but when the chad yemenis came they copied them? And these chad yemenis, didn’t bring islam to them which is credited to Persians/Gujurati Indian muslims, but these chad yemenis when they arrived made islam dominant?

The Shafi’i madhab was dominant in Iran/Persians before the Safavid(who were originally shafi’i) forcefully converted them to shi’ism, so did the chad yemenis make them Shafi as well ?

Is that the gist of your argument ?

 

[Periplus]

So… the Indonesians who were trading with India the entire time didn’t feel the need to copy the macawis from them, but when the chad yemenis came they copied them? And these chad yemenis, didn’t bring islam to them which is credited to Persians/Gujurati Indian muslims, but these chad yemenis when they arrived made islam dominant?

The Shafi’i madhab was dominant in Iran/Persians before the Safavid(who were originally shafi’i) forcefully converted them to shi’ism, so did the chad yemenis make them Shafi as well ?

Is that the gist of your argument ?

The macawis that was introduced by Indians to Malaysia/Indonesia, which is predominantly worn in Bali, is completely different in design and texture to that worn by Muslim men.

The word “Sarong” is similar to the Hadramawti word for macawis “Sarun”.

Look, you don’t have to listen to me, just look up the Yemeni-Indonesian trade history or just visit these countries.

 

[Three Moons]

Do you have the source for this? Also Somalis under the Ottomans fought in Indonesia against the Portuguese, we have some interesting history together.

“By the sixteenth century, Mogadishu's golden age was in a slow decline as the dynamics of Indian Ocean trade shifted elsewhere. The city's population shrank, its income decreased, some older quarters of the city were abandoned, and key trading networks passed first through other cities. This does not mean that the city disappeared from the trade routes or life of the Indian Ocean: Ching dynasty (1644-1911) coins circulated in the city, Mogadishu was the only mint functioning along the East African coast, the city traded via Aden with Cambay, and Gujarati money funded the city's trade. Mogadishu traders still lived abroad in a entrepôt like Malacca to conduct trade. Specialized cotton textiles for the Egyptian market were produced in the city's factories. Exports of slaves, cattle, and ivory left the port for Zanzibar or the Red Sea, while slaves from Abyssinia were imported along the caravan routes for use in the textile factories. “ - Cities of the Middle East and North Africa - A Historical Encyclopedia. P. 254

 

[World]

The macawis that was introduced by Indians to Malaysia/Indonesia, which is predominantly worn in Bali, is completely different in design and texture to that worn by Muslim men.

The word “Sarong” is similar to the Hadramawti word for macawis “Sarun”.

Look, you don’t have to listen to me, just look up the Yemeni-Indonesian trade history or just visit these countries.

Sarong comes from the Malay/Indonesian word “sarung” which means to cover. Given it’s an indigenous word, it’s likely Yemenis got it from Indonesians.

As for the design, it’s constantly changing with fashion trends. In fact, the Chinese even dominated the Sarong market in Indonesia after the early 20th century as they were able to cut the costs.

 

[Periplus]

Sarong comes from the Malay/Indonesian word “sarung” which means to cover. Given it’s an indigenous word, it’s likely Yemenis got it from Indonesians.

That’s also plausible, there are many Malay words in Hadramawti Arabic as Yemeni-Malays/Indonesians/Singaporeans up until the 1960s used to send their kids to Yemen for dhaqancelis and they would take slang words back.

Also for that screenshot you shared, if you read a bit further down that website, it also explains that sarongs came from both Arab and Indian traders.

Which my point was. The Islamic sarong came from Yemen and the Hindu one, which is more popular for tourists, came from India.

 

[Yami]

??

Whatever it is its been aroind for awhile. There's a old painting depicting habeshas wearing macawiis in the 13th century & one of my macawiis has berberawi printed on it even though it's produced in Indonesia. Production is Indonesian but they don't wear the patterns we do.

 

[World]

That’s also plausible, there are many Malay words in Hadramawti Arabic as Yemeni-Malays/Indonesians/Singaporeans up until the 1960s used to send their kids to Yemen for dhaqancelis and they would take slang words back.

Also for that screenshot you shared, if you read a bit further down that website, it also explains that sarongs came from both Arab and Indian traders.

Which my point was. The Islamic sarong came from Yemen and the Hindu one, which is more popular for tourists, came from India.

The source says “indigenous textile industry” and that it was eventually dominated by the Chinese due to lower costs. This is because the dye, used for the different designs is ancient and native.

So the Sarong in Indonesia/Malaysia is indigenous, and Chinese. I can’t find any source that says the design patterns and dye is from Hadrami, other than your claims on Somalispot.

Nor any evidence that religious beliefs between Islam and Hinduism changes the design patterns, other than yourself.

Ancient Batik (design) dates back to Indonesia and Gujurat textile industry:

Tracing batik in Sumatra

 

[Riftvalley]

I said many, not most.

There’s tens of thousands of Indonesians, Singaporeans and Malaysians that are of Hadrami ancestry.

That’s nothing compared their combined population of 300 million across the three countries.

You shouldn’t get butthurt over a simple comment.

Butt hurt? We were just exchanging comments? Some of your brothers need to mature out of these defensive postures. It is healthy for people to query your claims.

And another user has pointed out, Yemeni macaws is different to the Sarong. Can you respond to that logically without being so defensive?

 

[NordicSomali]

We need new macawiis with more interesting designs and colors. Not a lot of innovation the past years

 

[Periplus]

And another user has pointed out, Yemeni macaws is different to the Sarong. Can you respond to that logically without being so defensive?

Yemeni macawis and the Malaysian Muslim sarong are almost identical. The person was referring to the sarong worn by Hindus in Bali.

I already highlighted the difference in two photos in an earlier post.

 

[The Oponian Guild]

I think people in the Indian Ocean region have always been wearing sarongs/macawis of one form or another always, I don’t think the Yemenis introduced it, because most of them don’t even wear it say except for those from Aden and the port cities.