Which is more corrupt?

[Duchess]

You said:

Alshabab wouldnt Even exist if it wasnt for abdullahi yusuf.

I replied:

But Al-Shabaab was the military wing of the Islamic Courts Union.

To which you replied:

No They werent They had nothing to do with islamic courts union. That is incorrect with zero evidence. False allegations.

The evidence you presented contradicts what you've stated and shows that I was right. Al-Shabaab existed before any Ethiopian invasion into Somalia and were military wing under the Islamic Courts Union.

The Ethiopian invasion marked the true emergence of Al-Shabaab and I have not at any point denied this. Al-Shabaab went from fighting warlords to fighting the Ethiopian military, those are just the facts.

You said:

most experts agree that the extremism and radicalization of Alshabab happened after the Ethiopias invasion and the fall of ICU.

Again, the evidence you presented contradicts this. Al-Shabaab was always violent and extreme.

Under the Courts, Al-Shabaab practiced controlled violence, but they became an insurgency leading to the absolute chaos we witness to this day. Once the ICU started to negotiate with the government and International Community, a power vacuum was left in the opposition and Al-Shabaab took advantage of this. They became the largest resistance to the government, hence how/why they emerged "from the ICU's shadow".

You said:

All experts agree on is that they ousted the ICU leaders and Became radical extreme and powerful simply due to the Ethiopias invasion of somalia.

What experts? Where? Bring me proof that the Al-Shabaab ousted the ICU leaders. It's an established fact that the Ethiopians ousted the ICU from power, causing them to flee south of Mogadishu and towards the Jubbas.

The split between Al-Shabaab and the Courts occurred once the Courts began negotiating with the Somali government in 2007. The conference concluded in late 2008 and Sheikh Sharif was elected as President in Jan 2009.

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=5-ariOvo_GwC&pg=PT132

Al-Shabaab refused to negotiate with the Somali government and used the Ethiopian invasion as an excuse not to do so even those most of the ICU ( including its former leader, Sh. Sharif) had no issue joining the government, proving that Al-Shabaab were always 'radical' and 'extreme'. Nothing you've provided shows that Abdullahi Yusuf or even the TFG for that matter were responsible for Al-Shabaab. They existed years before any Ethiopian invasion and were an armed militia group who were responsible for carrying out violence on behalf of the Courts.

Btw, to call the ICU 'moderate' is a stretch. Both the ICU and Al-Shabaab have the same ideology ( Salafi Islam) and differed on very little issues ( Salafi Jihadi vs Salafi Jadiidi).

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=HtxCb3MueY8C&pg=PT208

After the January 2009 election of the Islamist Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed as president of Somalia’s Transitional Federal Government (he committed to codify and implement Sharia), Salafi clerics in al-Ictisaam (non-armed successor to AIAI) and Salafi Jadid (new Salafis) groups denounced waging jihad against the government, while Salafi-jihadi sheikhs called Sharif a collaborator

http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/...enya/b102-kenya-al-shabaab-closer-to-home.pdf

As you can see, Al-Shabaab were always Salafi Jihadists. Ethiopia, the TFG, Abdullahi Yusuf, the International Community, Sheikh Sharif and other Salafi Jadidis turning their back on Shabaab etc did not radicalize them. They were already jihadist radicals. Regardless of any Ethiopian involvement in Somalia, Shabaab would have been a thorn in the side of any Somali government that did not implement their version of Sharia.

 

[Geeljire]

You said:

To which you replied:



The evidence you presented contradicts what you've stated and shows that I was right. Al-Shabaab existed before any Ethiopian invasion into Somalia and were military wing under the Islamic Courts Union.

Yeah and i stand corrected alshabab wouldnt exist as a Radical extreme terrorist entity, nothing wrong with it.

The Ethiopian invasion marked the true emergence of Al-Shabaab and I have not at any point denied this. Al-Shabaab went from fighting warlords to fighting the Ethiopian military, those are just the facts.

You said:



Again, the evidence you presented contradicts this. Al-Shabaab was always violent and extreme.

Again i was speaking of Alshabaab being part of the ICU as radical extreme terrorist group. Which ICU was harboring terrorists. Hence the false allegations. You can qoute me out of context all day if you want. Wont change the fact that Alshabab emergance and transformations was simply due to the Ethiopias invasion.

Under the Courts, Al-Shabaab practiced controlled violence, but they became an insurgency leading to the absolute chaos we witness to this day. Once the ICU started to negotiate with the government and International Community, a power vacuum was left in the opposition and Al-Shabaab took advantage of this. They became the largest resistance to the government, hence how/why they emerged "from the ICU's shadow".

You said:

I said not out of context. While certaintly violent,the group, with only a few hundred members and little independen power or support was in fact kept in check by the courts.

What experts? Where? Bring me proof that the Al-Shabaab ousted the ICU leaders. It's an established fact that the Ethiopians ousted the ICU from power, causing them to flee south of Mogadishu and towards the Jubbas.

Alshabab did not outs the ICU, The ethiopian army did it and many leaders fled. never said anything different. All i said was they were outsted never even bother mention who did.

What i said.

The ICU leadership fled! and was outsted. As a result of the Ethiopian invasion. It became independent from ICU moderate control.

The split between Al-Shabaab and the Courts occurred once the Courts began negotiating with the Somali government in 2007. The conference concluded in late 2008 and Sheikh Sharif was elected as President in Jan 2009.


https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=5-ariOvo_GwC&pg=PT132

Many of the ICU leadership fled , alshabab retreated. Alshabaab became independent of ICU control.

Al-Shabaab refused to negotiate with the Somali government and used the Ethiopian invasion as an excuse not to do so even those most of the ICU ( including its former leader, Sh. Sharif) had no issue joining the government, proving that Al-Shabaab were always 'radical' and 'extreme'. Nothing you've provided shows that Abdullahi Yusuf or even the TFG for that matter were responsible for Al-Shabaab. They existed years before any Ethiopian invasion and were an armed militia group who were responsible for carrying out violence on behalf of the Courts.

What does this prove? my argument from the gecko was they did not exist as a radical extreme powerfull independent terrorist organization.

hence why equate the modern day alshabaab to the pre invasion alshabaab that emerged from as fraction of the ICU after its fall.

The current day alshabab had little do with ICU as they are completly different group emerged from as Fraction of the organization after The fall ICU.

Btw, to call the ICU 'moderate' is a stretch. Both the ICU and Al-Shabaab have the same ideology ( Salafi Islam) and differed on very little issues ( Salafi Jihadi vs Salafi Jadiidi).

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=HtxCb3MueY8C&pg=PT208

Salafi does that mean automatically extreme radical.

The Ethiopian invasion was directly responsible for the ideological transformation Al shabaab underwent.
Their extreme ideology was largely tempered by the moderate beliefs of many of its ICU leaders and nature of its popular supporrt.
As part of the ICU Al shabaab was at least somewhat restrained by this moderating infuluence.. .

However as the ethiopians destroyed the ICU military, the moderate leadership including Sheikh Sharis Ahmed largely fled acroos border into neighboring countries

http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/...enya/b102-kenya-al-shabaab-closer-to-home.pdf

As you can see, Al-Shabaab were always Salafi Jihadists. Ethiopia, the TFG, Abdullahi Yusuf, the International Community, Sheikh Sharif and other Salafi Jadidis turning their back on Shabaab etc did not radicalize them. They were already jihadist radicals. Regardless of any Ethiopian involvement in Somalia, Shabaab would have been a thorn in the side of any Somali government that did not implement their version of Sharia.

Without moderate voices to keep them in check these extremists were given free reign over al shabaab, hardening the religious ideology of the grou significantly. The group became intent on enforcing a much stricter version of shari'a than that practiced by many members of the ICU, under which music, videos and shaving were banned and perceived crimes were brutally punished by public stoning, amputations and beheadings.

CSIS Homeland Security & Counterterrorism Program Tansnational Threats Project

Wise Alshabaab Case study
http://csis.org/files/publication/110715_Wise_AlShabaab_AQAM Futures Case Study_WEB.pdf

 

[Geeljire]

What is your argument? Are you trying to argue That alshabab was a powerful radical extreme terrorist group before the ethiopian invasion?
That the ethiopian invasion had zero impact on alshababs rise and transformation and was not directly responsible for the alshabaab we see today?

 

[Duchess]

What is your argument? Are you trying to argue That alshabab was a powerful radical extreme terrorist group before the ethiopian invasion?
That the ethiopian invasion had zero impact on alshababs rise and transformation and was not directly responsible for the alshabaab we see today?

No, I'm trying to argue that Al-Shabaab's existence and radicalization can not be blamed on any person or entity. Al-Shabaab existed years before any Ethiopian invasion, were violent and always adhered to the radical Salafi Jihadi ideology. We both agree that Al-Shabaab became more powerful after the Ethiopian invasion, but we don't agree on how/why. I believe it was the split with most of ICU in 2007 ( following their negotiations with the IC and Somali government) that led to this increase in power. If the ICU had stayed the course instead of turning their backs on Al-Shabaab, then Al-Shabaab would still be part of that organization but they would also still be as radical and as violent as they are today.

 

[nambarA]

So you're saying it's because the international community intervened that hundreds of thousands of Somalis are not being killed anymore? I guess southern Somalia should become a permanent UN territory then.

No, I'm saying, the international community intervened due to al-Shabaab's existence, not due to the suffering of Somalis.

Who are the majority?

Those who voted: Somali government 10 vote(s) 100.0%

 

[KXNG]

the Somali government is corrupt to the core and everyone in the government is there to line their pockets while they can
but al shabab on the other hand are a bigger problem then the government because the government is robbing people and al shabab are killing them is a bad time to be a civilian in Somalia

 

[nambarA]

the Somali government is corrupt to the core and everyone in the government is there to line their pockets while they can
but al shabab on the other hand are a bigger problem then the government because the government is robbing people and al shabab are killing them is a bad time to be a civilian in Somalia

The poll is about which is more corrupt, not who kills more. FYI, far few have died at the hands of al shabab than the government, amisom, xabashis and others.

 

[KXNG]

The poll is about which is more corrupt, not who kills more. FYI, far few have died at the hands of al shabab than the government, amisom, xabashis and others.

thats proabably true but shabaab are not a governing body how can they be corrupt the question doesn't make sense

 

[nambarA]

thats proabably true but shabaab are not a governing body how can they be corrupt the question doesn't make sense

They govern areas they control. Whether they're recognized by the UN, EU, USA, etc isn't a critical factor.

 

[KXNG]

They govern areas they control. Whether they're recognized by the UN, EU, USA, etc isn't a critical factor.

ok if thats the case i would say al shabaab are more corrupt just on the fact that they hide their motives under deen but i would say 90% of the people in power are corrupt that includes the goverment and shabaab money talks