Which race were the Ancient Egypts - EGYPT EXPERTS COME IN

[Som]

This is an Afrocentric meme I heard before. It makes no sense as there is no evidence of mass population replacement in Egypt. Egyptians were farmers with an already huge population. The few nomadic Bedouin Arabs could not demographically replace them. As for the Romans/Greeks they were colonizing areas like how Europeans colonized Africa in the late 1800s/early 1900s - not much population replacement.. Just elite rule.

It is like Afars replacing Amharas or Oromos. They can't do it.

Bro it's not replacement. I never said they were black and then turned coptic. I'm saying that it's likely they were more african( cushitic like probably) in more ancient times especially in the southern Egypt areas.
This study goes in detail . It basically says that they analised 151 Egyptian mummies mainly located in northern egypt and they found that they were even less african than modern egyptian. Not surprising.But it's just 151 mummies. The same article admits that more research is needed and that southern egypt may have been more nubian influenced and thus more african QUOTE:
It is possible that populations in the south of Egypt were more closely related to those of Nubia and had a higher sub-Saharan genetic component, in which case the argument for an influx of sub-Saharan ancestries after the Roman Period might only be partially valid and have to be nuanced. Throughout Pharaonic history there was intense interaction between Egypt and Nubia, ranging from trade to conquest and colonialism, and there is compelling evidence for ethnic complexity within households with Egyptian men marrying Nubian women and vice versa. Clearly, more genetic studies on ancient human remains from southern Egypt and Sudan are needed before apodictic statements can be made.

Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods - Nature Communications

Archaeological and historical records had shown ancient Egypt before and after Ptolemaic and Roman periods to be a hub of human migration and exchange. Here, Schuenemann and colleagues analyse ancient mitochondrial and nuclear DNA to investigate the genetic history of Egypt.

www.nature.com

 

[Juliet]

they depicted themselves like modern egyptians lol :

View attachment 169024

Lol they used adaman island people to depict Africans how stupid. Sorry not buying your biased meme.

 

[Tewahedo]

Lol they used adaman island people to depict Africans how stupid. Sorry not buying your biased meme.

Alright, let's go check what science have to say about it :

The measurements were principally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similarities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World.We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations

Brace, C. L., D. P. Tracer, L. A. Yaroch, J. Robb, K. Brandt, and A. R. Nelson. 1993. Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31

All of these features are also present in Europeans and West Asians to some degree but are uncommon in Sub-saharan peoples. Craniometric indicators appear to support these results, and European-like discrete traits, such as alveolar orthognathism, dolichocephaly, rhomboid orbits, narrow nasal aperture, and nasal sill, are prevalent" "...they appear distinct from post-Pleistocene sub-saharan Africans.

(J.D. Irish; 2000)

"[...]the predynastic sample from Upper Egypt lies very close to the West Eurasian group...their closest relatives appear to be western Eurasians and coastal North Africans. [...]Notice that the pooled group of Sub-Saharan Africans from the southern ,central, and western regions of the continent does not resemble Egyptians at all : this group is plotted very distant from both ancient egyptian samples.

Similar conclusions are reached by Howells (1989, 1995) and Froment (1992, 1994)." (Brace; 1993)

The mtGenome profile independently obtained from the tooth by the FBI and HMS laboratorieswere identical and can be found in Table S2. The haplotype (deposited in GenBank under accession number MG736653) belongs to mitochondrial DNA lineage U5b2b5, but the specific sequence has not been previously reported in the 35,942 mtGenomes stored in the NCBI GenBank database (as of October 2017). The sequence closest to the mummy’s belongs to a contemporary individual from Lebanon (KT779192 [67]); however, the two haplotypes still differ at five positions, three of them in the control region (CR).The Djehutynakht sequence was also compared to available ancient human DNA sequences (Table S4). Not surprisingly, no direct matches to the Djehutynakht sequence have been reported. However, related U5b2b sequences have been observed in ancient human remains from Europe, and a haplogroup U5b2c1 haplotype was recently discovered in 2000-year-old remains from Phoenicia [67]. When only the mtDNA sequences recovered from ancient Egyptian human remains are considered, the Djehutynakht sequence most closely resembles a U5a lineage from sample JK2903, a 2000-year-old skeleton from Abusir el-Meleq

Biological Sexing of a 4000-Year-Old Egyptian Mummy Head to Assess the Potential of Nuclear DNA Recovery from the Most Damaged and Limited Forensic Specimens

High throughput sequencing (HTS) has been used for a number of years in the field of paleogenomics to facilitate the recovery of small DNA fragments from ancient specimens. Recently, these techniques have also been applied in forensics, where they have been used for the recovery of mitochondrial...

www.mdpi.com

On top of this historical information offering an explanation for the observed mtDNA data are now additional, recently published, mtGenomes from Africa, and Egypt in particular. MtDNA haplotypes recently obtained from ancient human remains from sub-Saharan Africa belong only to haplogroup L subgroups [65,88]. However, nearly all of the remains excavated in the Northern part of the continent belong to Eurasian mtDNA lineages [63,67,74,89,90]. In fact, of the 114 mtDNA genomes now available from northern African ancient human remains, only one belongs to an African lineage (L3 observed in a skeleton from Abusir el-Meleq [74]). The deep presence of Eurasian mtDNA lineages
in Northern Africa has, therefore, been clearly established with these recent reports and offers further support for the authenticity of the Eurasian mtDNA sequence observed in the Djehutynakht mummy

https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4425/9/3/135/htm

Our genetic time transect suggests genetic continuity between the Pre-Ptolemaic, Ptolemaic and Roman populations of Abusir el-Meleq, indicating that foreign rule impacted the town’s population only to a very limited degree at the genetic level. It is possible that the genetic impact of Greek and Roman immigration was more pronounced in the north-western Delta and the Fayum, where most Greek and Roman settlement concentrated43,55, or among the higher classes of Egyptian society55. Under Ptolemaic and Roman rule, ethnic descent was crucial to belonging to an elite group and afforded a privileged position in society55.

(PDF) Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods

PDF | Egypt, located on the isthmus of Africa, is an ideal region to study historical population dynamics due to its geographic location and documented... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

The vast majority of hair samples discovered at the Predynastic cemetery site HK43 (Hierakonpolis, Upper Egypt, c.3500 BC) were cymotrichous (Caucasian) in type as opposed to heliotrichous (Negroid), a feature which is standard throughout dynastic times. (…) Although most of the hair found is the natural dark brown color, natural red hair was also discovered ... samples were examined microscopically

https://www.hierakonpolis-online.org/nekhennews/nn-10-1998.pdf

the race (of the mummy), by diameters, indices, angles and cranial or facial profiles: is an a priori Berber type. [...] the hairs, of exceptional interest because of their state of conservation, are fine, supple, slightly wavy by place, of a reddish-blond colour pulling hard towards yellowish. Of oval cross-section, and cross-referencing all other anthropometric observations, they are characteristic of the hair of a “cymotrichous leucoderm", close to the Mediterraneans of Prehistory, like a Berber, of white skin - and not of a Nubian, of black skin.... Microscopic examinations revealed a practically intact morphology and natural red pigments: he was therefore a real redhead.

Ramesses II mummy analysis.pdf

View and download Ramesses II mummy analysis.pdf on DocDroid

www.docdroid.net

The proposed haplogroup for three of the investigated mummies, namely Tutankhamun, KV55 (Akhenaten) and Amenhotep III, was R1b. The R1b haplogroup is defined by the mutation M343 and thought to originate in the western Asian region (Wood et al. 2005, 867–876; Cruciani et al. 2010, 800–807; Myres et al. 2011, 95–101; Klyosov 2012, 87–105). R1b is not abundant in contemporary Fig. 2. Family pedigree depicting mitochondrial and Y chromosome haplogroups Africa (Cruciani et al. 2010, 800–807), yet it is geographically widespread among the European populations making up to 50–60% of the genetic pool of the modern Europeans (Arredi et al. 2004, 338–345; Cinnioǧlu et al. 2004, 127–148; Karafet et al. 2008, 830–838; Myres et al. 2011, 95–101; Klyosov 2012, 87–105). The introduction of this Y-chromosomal signature may be due to old introgression of lineages to the European gene pool from the Near East during the Neolithic spread of farming (Myres et al. 2011, 95–101). The phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup distribution provided strong support to the back-migration theory from Asia to Africa (Cruciani et al. 2010, 800–807). The R1b group was estimated to have an age of ca. 16,000 years before present (YBP) (Klyosov 2012, 87–105), and its suggested expansion time nearly approximates that of the G2a haplogroup (Cinnioǧlu et al. 2004, 127–148). Less than 7% of the contemporary Egyptians share the R1b Y-chromosomal fingerprint (Cruciani et al. 2010, 800–807; el-Sibai et al. 2009, 568–581).

Gad et al_Hawass FS Final-2020.pdf

Guardian of Ancient Egypt Studies in Honor of Zahi Hawass Volume I. edited by Janice Kamrin Miroslav Bárta Salima Ikram Mark Lehner Mohamed Megahed. Prague Charles University, Faculty of Arts 2020. This book was published with support of the research project within the Program of the Development...

www.docdroid.net

etc etc...

 

[Amirah]

This is an Afrocentric meme I heard before. It makes no sense as there is no evidence of mass population replacement in Egypt. Egyptians were farmers with an already huge population. The few nomadic Bedouin Arabs could not demographically replace them. As for the Romans/Greeks they were colonizing areas like how Europeans colonized Africa in the late 1800s/early 1900s - not much population replacement.. Just elite rule.

It is like laangaab Afars replacing laandheer Amharas or Oromos. They can't do it.

Not similar analogy at all, Europeans rule Africa and mined resources but didn’t physically move in. What’s more appropriate comparison is what happened in North America where they physically moved in and replaced the natives. That’s similar to what happened to ancient Egypt. I’m not sure why you’re deliberately trying to downplay just how much ancient Egyptians were displaced by comparing it to the 100 years of European colonization of Africa. Egypt was conquered multiple times that lasted few 1000s years until its final collapse. Most of the new kingdom and the entire ptolemaic era and after were completely under foreign rule. Most of pharaohs during this period were in fact not native Egyptians. At one point 200k Egyptians migrated south of the Nile. You don’t migrate in such magnitude unless you’ve been displaced.

I read all your comments and you are clearly promoting certain narrative deliberately. I find this very interesting

 

[reer]

This is an Afrocentric meme I heard before. It makes no sense as there is no evidence of mass population replacement in Egypt. Egyptians were farmers with an already huge population. The few nomadic Bedouin Arabs could not demographically replace them. As for the Romans/Greeks they were colonizing areas like how Europeans colonized Africa in the late 1800s/early 1900s - not much population replacement.. Just elite rule.

It is like laangaab Afars replacing laandheer Amharas or Oromos. They can't do it.

not necessarily population replacement but assimilation + intermarriage + arabic language becoming official under umayyads + migration of levantine and peninsula arabs = gradual arabization

 

[Netflix]

not necessarily population replacement but assimilation + intermarriage + arabic language becoming official under umayyads + migration of levantine and peninsula arabs = gradual arabization

Yes but most Egyptians only have roughly 17% peninsular Arab.

 

[reer]

Yes but most Egyptians only have roughly 17% peninsular Arab.

exactly my point. marriage with arabs 17% of their dna is significant and arabic being official language of the umayyads so people start to adopt arabic. more trade with the levantine arabs too under islamic empires. 17% is more peninsula dna than having a peninsular grandmother (12.5%).
arabs are people whose language is arabic regardless of dna

 

[Apollo]

Yes but most Egyptians only have roughly 17% peninsular Arab.

Where did you get that number from?

It is very difficult to tell the difference between Ancient Egyptian and Arabian DNA.

23andMe even groups Egyptians, Arabians, and Levantines in the same subcategory:

https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/212169298-23andMe-Reference-Populations-Regions

This is who they group Somalis with:

Egyptians are genetically quite different from Maghrebis. 23andMe realizes this and thus split them:

 

[Netflix]

Where did you get that number from?

It is very difficult to tell the difference between Ancient Egyptian and Arabian DNA.

23andMe even groups Egyptians, Arabians, and Levantines in the same subcategory:

https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/212169298-23andMe-Reference-Populations-Regions

This is who they group Somalis with:

Egyptians are genetically quite different from Maghrebis. 23andMe realizes this and thus split them:

I meant modern day Egyptians. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/stepfeed.com/amp/dna-analysis-proves-arabs-aren-t-entirely-arab-4864

 

[Apollo]

I meant modern day Egyptians. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/stepfeed.com/amp/dna-analysis-proves-arabs-aren-t-entirely-arab-4864

That statistic is not accurate. It is based on Maghrebis as the North African standard. Maghrebis and Egyptians have always been genetically different.

See above how 23andme does not group Egyptians with Maghrebis but with Southwest Middle Easterners.

 

[Tewahedo]

Not similar analogy at all, Europeans rule Africa and mined resources but didn’t physically move in. What’s more appropriate comparison is what happened in North America where they physically moved in and replaced the natives. That’s similar to what happened to ancient Egypt. I’m not sure why you’re deliberately trying to downplay just how much ancient Egyptians were displaced by comparing it to the 100 years of European colonization of Africa. Egypt was conquered multiple times that lasted few 1000s years until its final collapse. Most of the new kingdom and the entire ptolemaic era and after were completely under foreign rule. Most of pharaohs during this period were in fact not native Egyptians. At one point 200k Egyptians migrated south of the Nile. You don’t migrate in such magnitude unless you’ve been displaced.

I read all your comments and you are clearly promoting certain narrative deliberately. I find this very interesting

You can't compare the american situation to what happened in ancient egypt simply because 90% of native americans died because of european viruses.

 

[The alchemist]

Egyptians were most likely majority Western Asian and had a clinal rise of SSA the further down in upper Egypt. I don't even think the earlier and later dynasties had the same type of composite structure. It changed as people came from the Levant, no doubt.

What's interesting is Epipaelolithic Egypt, when people were hunter-gatherers also semi-sedentary. Were they mostly Natufian-like who adopted culture and technology and maybe developed some of the agricultural techniques locally and then influenced by the Levantine migrants to some degree in the agricultural revolution, or was there a big population replacement in the Neolithic like you had in Southern Europe when the WHG got their genetics diluted?

Prehistoric Nubia, Neolithic, and later is equally if not even more interesting to me. Their demographic processes were more complex, and I think the Mesolithic times has a lot to teach us. My guess is Nubia was more important and the place to be at the earlier times, and later more emphasis and shift in focus on the more northern areas due to civilizational development that took the attention.

You know, it could be that the Cushites never trace a direct lineage to Levantines - we clearly lack their specific signatures - we mostly resemble a Natufian-like group as it appears more pristine to me. Maybe one theory is that the Eurasian part was the epi-Northeast African natives who got pushed down by the movement of people from the Levant in the agricultural revolution and mixed with more SSA groups in northeast Africa in the process?

 

[Username]

This is who they group Somalis with:

Why are we grouped with South Sudanese?

 

[inflorescence]

Idk I think we are approaching “We Wuz Kangs” territory

 

[Juliet]

Where did you get that number from?

It is very difficult to tell the difference between Ancient Egyptian and Arabian DNA.

23andMe even groups Egyptians, Arabians, and Levantines in the same subcategory:

https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/212169298-23andMe-Reference-Populations-Regions

This is who they group Somalis with:

Egyptians are genetically quite different from Maghrebis. 23andMe realizes this and thus split them:

Lol 23 and me thinks Somalis descend from Arabia, they are certainly not a credible source

 

[Mckenzie]

The classical name was Mizraim which means the Two Egypts. Upper Egypt was more Cushitic/Nubian and Lower Egypt was more Semite/Coptic, some say Mizraim was a tribe closely related to Cush descendants of the Hamites.

 

[Apollo]

Lol 23 and me thinks Somalis descend from Arabia, they are certainly not a credible source

Nope, they had some intern or something write those descriptions of the subcategories. We at SomaliSpot got pissed off and forced them to remove that Arab and refugee stuff. Now they only mention Somalis being nomads and speaking Cushitic, a bit better.

The way they grouped people from around the world kind of is legit.

https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/212169298-23andMe-Reference-Populations-Regions

 

[Awbarre]

There is nothing conclusive as of yet. There has been no DNA samples from Upper Egypt, where the Ancient Egyptians originated. There has also never been any DNA samples anywhere between the Old Kingdom to Pre Dynastic Egypt. Every DNA test that was done was focused mainly from the New Kingdom to the Ptolemic (Greek) Dynasty and in the region of Lower Egypt to between Middle Egypt. Nothing has been determined as of yet.

Cranial and anthropological (physical) tests done in Upper Egypt of pre dynastic Egyptians show the Naqadan and Badarian samples cluster almost identically with Lower Nubians and populations even further south towards Kerma. Historically, there was never any distinction between Upper Egypt and Lower Nubia in racial terms, only political dynamics. So there aren't any surprises there.

Graph (source): An analysis of crania from Tell-Duweir using multiple discriminant functions. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1988;75(3):375‐390. doi:10.1002/ajpa.1330750309

Pre dynastic Egyptians and the Kermans in Upper Nubia were definitely two related populations.

A recent 2018 study showed that Kermans in Upper Nubia were almost identically related to Lisht (Upper Egypt) and Gizeh (Lower Egypt) even more so that the Naqada and Badarians:

Source: ---Godde, Kanya. (2018). An Application of a New Analysis to the Interpretation of Nilotic Relationships and Peopling of the Nile Valley. HOMO - Journal of Comparative Human Biology. 69. 10.1016/j.jchb.2018.07.002.

 

[Boogie]

Why are we grouped with South Sudanese?

Idk maybe horners proto nilotic genes

 

[Netflix]

There is nothing conclusive as of yet. There has been no DNA samples from Upper Egypt, where the Ancient Egyptians originated. There has also never been any DNA samples anywhere between the Old Kingdom to Pre Dynastic Egypt. Every DNA test that was done was focused mainly from the New Kingdom to the Ptolemic (Greek) Dynasty and in the region of Lower Egypt to between Middle Egypt. Nothing has been determined as of yet.

Cranial and anthropological (physical) tests done in Upper Egypt of pre dynastic Egyptians show the Naqadan and Badarian samples cluster almost identically with Lower Nubians and populations even further south towards Kerma. Historically, there was never any distinction between Upper Egypt and Lower Nubia in racial terms, only political dynamics. So there aren't any surprises there.

Graph (source): An analysis of crania from Tell-Duweir using multiple discriminant functions. Am J Phys Anthropol. 1988;75(3):375‐390. doi:10.1002/ajpa.1330750309

Pre dynastic Egyptians and the Kermans in Upper Nubia were definitely two related populations.

A recent 2018 study showed that Kermans in Upper Nubia were almost identically related to Lisht (Upper Egypt) and Gizeh (Lower Egypt) even more so that the Naqada and Badarians:

Source: ---Godde, Kanya. (2018). An Application of a New Analysis to the Interpretation of Nilotic Relationships and Peopling of the Nile Valley. HOMO - Journal of Comparative Human Biology. 69. 10.1016/j.jchb.2018.07.002.

have u ever considered the possibility lower nubia had a more caucasian cranium instead of upper egyptians craniums being more negroid.