Which schools of Aqeedah do you subscribe too?

[Keep it a boqol]

You have entered dubious ground by declaring kufr so easily especially when there is a lot of discussion about tawassul. Tawassul is merely a means absolutely no body worships a shaykh or anyone other than allah

You really shouldn't make takfir so easily especially when you can be shown to be wrong

These 'grave worshippers' really only exist as ghost stories I've never come across or heard of one.

why do you guys conflate Tawassul which is halal to asking dead saints for help? why are you guys so keen and defensive about asking the dead ? I don’t get it.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

La ilaha illa Allah.




1- so the problem is believing Isa is alrabb- supposedly. so- a Catholic saying, as they do in one of their most common prayers- "pray for us sinners"- directed at "Mother Mary"- this is okay? this is not shirk for someone to say "Mary, pray for us sinners?" that would not be shirk? the one who makes that dua would not be a kaffir mushrik?



2- this is incorrect. who prays to the dead is a kaffir. you make dua to some sufi saint, you say "mother mary pray for me", you say "ya Ali"..... all of this is major kufr. La ilaha illa Allah. the shahadah is the first pillar of Islam. it comes even before salah, which is the second. if you're worshipping other than Allah- and praying to a Sufi saint, a Catholic "saint" or one of the many created beings the Shia pray to- all of this is worship, it invalidates the shahadah.

الدُّعَاءُ هُوَ الْعِبَادَةُ

Al-Nu’man ibn Bashir reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Supplication is worship itself.” Then, the Prophet recited the verse, “Your Lord said: Call upon Me and I will respond to you. Verily, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell in humiliation.” (40:60)

Source: Sunan al-Tirmidhī 3247

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani

Hadith on Dua: Supplication is worship itself, for Allah alone

www.abuaminaelias.com

And ˹on Judgment Day˺ Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you ever ask the people to worship you and your mother as gods besides Allah?” 5:116

Both Jesus and Mary were worshipped as gods as the ayah states


2. Again being dead or alive has no bearing on whether an action is classified as shirk, according to your understanding it's shirk to pray to the dead what about praying to the living ? where did you get this from ?


In the Quran the word dua is used in different contexts, some for asking, worship and others just a simple call. For example

Do not make your calling on (dua )the Messenger in the same manner you call on one another (24:63)

And if you call them to guidance, they follow you not. It is the same for you whether you call them or you keep silent ( 7:193)

If all dua is worship then why would Allah tell us to make dua to the Prophet etc , does Allah command shirk here ? The answer is no and no one believes the meaning of dua here refers to worship. So the question is when is dua considered worship such that when it's done for other than Allah it becomes major shirk.

When the mushriks, call upon on their gods, idoles etc they do so with the belief that their gods are their rabbs. Just like when we make dua to Allah with the belief that He is Our Rabb none deservers to be worshipped except Him as He is the Only True Ilah & Rabb.

The reason why the calling/invoking, supplications of the mushriks is considered worship is because they've ascribed divinity to their gods making them partners to Allah in His Rububiyyah.

 

[Omar del Sur]

And ˹on Judgment Day˺ Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you ever ask the people to worship you and your mother as gods besides Allah?” 5:116

Both Jesus and Mary were worshipped as gods as the ayah states


2. Again being dead or alive has no bearing on whether an action is classified as shirk, according to your understanding it's shirk to pray to the dead what about praying to the living ? where did you get this from ?


In the Quran the word dua is used in different contexts, some for asking, worship and others just a simple call. For example

Do not make your calling on (dua )the Messenger in the same manner you call on one another (24:63)

And if you call them to guidance, they follow you not. It is the same for you whether you call them or you keep silent ( 7:193)

If all dua is worship then why would Allah tell us to make dua to the Prophet etc , does Allah command shirk here ? The answer is no and no one believes the meaning of dua here refers to worship. So the question is when is dua considered worship such that when it's done for other than Allah it becomes major shirk.

When the mushriks, call upon on their gods, idoles etc they do so with the belief that their gods are their rabbs. Just like when we make dua to Allah with the belief that He is Our Rabb none deservers to be worshipped except Him as He is the Only True Ilah & Rabb.

The reason why the calling/invoking, supplications of the mushriks is considered worship is because they've ascribed divinity to their gods making them partners to Allah in His Rububiyyah.

I don't see how Sufis continue making it seem as though there is no difference between asking someone in the room with you to hand you something and praying to a dead person for help.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

i don’t think its only shirk asking making dua but it falls under it. asking a dead person for help creates the assumption that they have supernatural power and can help you in the worldly affairs. This negates tawheed Rububiyyah and tawheed uluhiyyah. only allah can control affairs alone and iyyaka nabudu wa iyyaka nastaeen

Some of The quraysh pagens didn’t disbelieve in allah but they didn’t want to give up their idols and saints as intercessors to get closer. Do you see the similarities between extreme sufi sects and mushrikeen?

And Speaking of yasir qadhi he slanders the shaykh mohammed ibn wahhab may allah have mercy on him and his dawah. All the shaykh did was make a book on tawheed and the slander is inaccurate and baseless. I don’t see how people can have a problem with his books when he’s calling people to tawheed

Merely asking someone whether dead or alive doesn't constitute as shirk unless accompanied with shirk beliefs. The same shirk that you believe that can occur with the dead is equally applicable with living yet you focus on the dead due to a misunderstanding on your part.

Let's assume that one asks the deceased with the belief that everything occurs by the Will of Allah how is this shirk ? If you ask a righteous person while he's alive to make dua for you that Allah grants you a child and after his passing you go to his grave and ask him in the same manner why is it suddenly shirk ? if the belief in both cases is free from shirk then it can't be considered shirk.

You simply assume worst case scenario when it pertains to the deceased and don't apply the same standard to the living due to your theological bias. Whether living or deceased no one has the benefit to help you without the Will & Power of Allah. Believing that they can help you independently is shirk it doesn’t matter if the person is living or deceased.

sxb the qurash disbelieved in Allah if they didn't they wouldn't beconsidered as kuffar. I think perhaps you were referring to the existence of Allah, some of them were atheist. No i don't think similarities can be established between them as pagans of quraysh believed and worshipped mulitple gods while the same can't be said about the extreme sufis. Would you mind giving me examples of such sufis who believe and worship other gods ?

Yasir qadhi's refutation of miaw & his dawah isn't slander but valid critique as everything he says about miaw is easily verified. Have a read of my reply to you on your previous thread about wahabism

What really is Wahhabism?

I was at a Islamic lecture at a university and the imam at one point was going off on “Wahhabis” and how some local imams at mosques around my city are following Wahhabism and it isn’t real Islam. I understand that there is a salafiyyah group of people who are quick to takfir everyone call...

www.somalispot.com

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I don't see how Sufis continue making it seem as though there is no difference between asking someone in the room with you to hand you something and praying to a dead person for help.

You're being very disingenuous as the issue of contention is about asking the living versus the deceased and not asking the living vs praying to the dead. It's not a coincidence why you're referring to asking the deceased as praying to them and not when it comes to living. What makes asking of the deceased to be worship but not that of the living ?

If you ask a righteous person while he's alive to make dua for you that Allah grants you a child and after his passing you go to his grave and ask him in the same manner why is it suddenly shirk ? had you said it was haram then i would've understood you but the fact that you believe it's shirk is the issue here.

 

[Omar del Sur]

If you ask a righteous person while he's alive to make dua for you that Allah grants you a child and after his passing you go to his grave and ask him in the same manner why is it suddenly shirk ? had you said it was haram then i would've understood you but the fact that you believe it's shirk is the issue here.

It would be an issue if I thought it was just haraam. shirk is shirk. we don't need to ask dead people for things, we can ask Allah.

 

[reer]

Even in that scenario do they believe that he can help them independently without Allah ? This is the mistake salafis make when they make similarities between haram actions some Muslims make to the actions of mushrikeen who worshipped gods besides Allah who they believed could help, protect give benefit etc ie they ascribed qualities of Rububiyyah to their gods and worshipped them on this basis.

When chrisitians make dua to Jesus or pagan Arabs call upon their gods they do so with the belief that those whom they make dua to, worship etc is their rabb. Do these sufis believe that about their saints ?


There may well be a possibility that such individuals exist among Muslims outwardly laakin they’re most definitely are a tiny minority & most importantly unless you examine their beliefs you wouldn’t know it. Hence the need to make a distinction between those who fall into haram versus those who commit shirk in this issue.

Unfortunately what many people end up doing is grouping them together due to their misunderstanding when it relates to tawheed & shirk.

As long as one believes in a god besides Allah they’re considered a mushrik even when they don’t make dua to their god simply because of their shirki beliefs. Similarly one is considered to be a muslim as long as they retain their belief of Allah, I mean we don’t stop being Muslims when we’re not in prayer do we now ?

So in short if one has shirk beliefs they’re guilty of shirk even if they don’t make a single act of worship to their god etc. Being dead or alive has no bearing on whether an action is classified as shirk

the aqeedah of the qadiriyya order in somalia unfiltered. here is macalin maxamuud one of their biggest sheikhs and hes also like 2nd in command of the ASWJ militias. hes literally telling people his sheikh gives life. he has no excuse of ignorance since he is a sheikh. their book is disgusting and has so much kufr.
@Keep it a boqol @World @daljirkadahsoon

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

It would be an issue if I thought it was just haraam. shirk is shirk. we don't need to ask dead people for things, we can ask Allah.

Why is it shirk ? is there an ayah or hadith that states asking of the deceased is shirk ? the fact that you can't even be able to give an explanation why it's shirk but have no qualms in believing it's shirk only highlights your ignorance. This is not how the deen works

the aqeedah of the qadiriyya order in somalia unfiltered. here is macalin maxamuud one of their biggest sheikhs and hes also like 2nd in command of the ASWJ militias. hes literally telling people his sheikh gives life. he has no excuse of ignorance since he is a sheikh. their book is disgusting and has so much kufr.
@Keep it a boqol @World @daljirkadahsoon

sxb come on now at least give him benefit of the doubt as your explanation isn't consistent with the audio. at first he states he performed miracles like isa ie meaning that it occurred with Allah's Will then later on says raatiga came back to life without him saying bi ithnillah. Had he truly believed it occurred independently without Allah then there wouldn't be need a reason to compare it to the miracles performed by nabi Isa.

These one of those exaggerated stories about karamaat of their ascetics, scholars etc where some truths is mixed with, lies, haram, bidah and whatnot. I understand and do agree that people should be cautious and also be protected from such actions laakin it's important to be just and act accordingly and not make blanket accusations against the majority esp laypeople.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Why is it shirk ? is there an ayah or hadith that states asking of the deceased is shirk ? the fact that you can't even be able to give an explanation why it's shirk but have no qualms in believing it's shirk only highlights your ignorance. This is not how the deen works



sxb come on now at least give him benefit of the doubt as your explanation isn't consistent with the audio. at first he states he performed miracles like isa ie meaning that it occurred with Allah's Will then later on says raatiga came back to life without him saying bi ithnillah. Had he truly believed it occurred independently without Allah then there wouldn't be need a reason to compare it to the miracles performed by nabi Isa.

These one of those exaggerated stories about karamaat of their ascetics, scholars etc where some truths is mixed with, lies, haram, bidah and whatnot. I understand and do agree that people should be cautious and also be protected from such actions laakin it's important to be just and act accordingly and not make blanket accusations against the majority esp laypeople.

Are grave Worshippers Disbelievers Or not ? By Shāykh Salih Bin Fawzan Al-Fawzan حفظه الله*

x.com

x.com

x.com

x.com

 

[World]

the aqeedah of the qadiriyya order in somalia unfiltered. here is macalin maxamuud one of their biggest sheikhs and hes also like 2nd in command of the ASWJ militias. hes literally telling people his sheikh gives life. he has no excuse of ignorance since he is a sheikh. their book is disgusting and has so much kufr.
@Keep it a boqol @World @daljirkadahsoon

If you go to a grave and ask a request from them i.e "my child is sick, heal them", even if your intention is that this dead person can only grant you this request with the power of Allah, it doesn't matter it's still shirk.

However that doesn't mean i agree with miaw at all, and the massacres, killing and crimes he committed.

 

[World]

so you can do tabdiic on asharis and call them jahmi remnants and then study from abu ishaq al shirazi? are you serious?

Unfortunately, the real world doesn't work like that.

Zamakhshari is the author of Tafsir Al-Kasshaf, one of the most important Tafsir of the Qur'an in history, and the greatest linguistic commentary of the Quran, focusing on grammatical and rhetorical analysis. As he was founded the Arabic science of Al Balaghah, it is studied by everyone today including Salafis. Zamakhshari created his Tafsir because he wanted (his) Mu'tazilla to have their own Tafsir of the Qur'an based on their views.

And the Mu'tazila also founded the Usul ul Fiqh of the Hanbali, Shafi'i and Maliki madhab. These three schools are called usul al mutakalimin, because their founders used to introduce their books by first explaining the Mu'tazila aqeedah.

The very foundation of Salafis understanding of Arabic, Tafsir, and Usul ul Fiqh are from Mu'tazila, and you are talking about Ashari Lol.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Are grave Worshippers Disbelievers Or not ? By Shāykh Salih Bin Fawzan Al-Fawzan حفظه الله*

x.com

x.com

View attachment 329443

x.com

x.com

There's no disagreement that a person who worships other than Allah is a mushrik but the issue of contention is making the claim that by asking the deceased this is shirk. In other words it's your accusations of claiming a particular action is shirk that's what the disagreement is about.

If one is going to make a claim that something is shirk or kufr that takes one out of the fold of Islām, it should be proven by consensus or decisive evidence. Speculative arguments that fall short of this standard cannot be taken as grounds for accusations of kufr against a declared Muslim or against any person that has pronounced the shahadatayn

If you go to a grave and ask a request from them i.e "my child is sick, heal them", even if your intention is that this dead person can only grant you this request with the power of Allah, it doesn't matter it's still shirk.

However that doesn't mean i agree with miaw at all, and the massacres, killing and crimes he committed.

but why is it shirk though ? if the same person went to doctor and said to him my child is sick, heal them with the belief that the doctor is able to do just that by the Will of Allah is this action shirk or not ? If you agree that this isn't shirk then the same applies with the deceased as well

 

[World]

There's no disagreement that a person who worships other than Allah is a mushrik but the issue of contention is making the claim that by asking the deceased this is shirk. In other words it's your accusations of claiming a particular action is shirk that's what the disagreement is about.

If one is going to make a claim that something is shirk or kufr that takes one out of the fold of Islām, it should be proven by consensus or decisive evidence. Speculative arguments that fall short of this standard cannot be taken as grounds for accusations of kufr against a declared Muslim or against any person that has pronounced the shahadatayn



but why is it shirk though ? if the same person went to doctor and said to him my child is sick, heal them with the belief that the doctor is able to do just that by the Will of Allah is this action shirk or not ? If you agree that this isn't shirk then the same applies with the deceased as well

Can a person prostrate and call upon Isa alayhi salam, and ask him to lift him out of poverty, as long he doesn't believe Isa is independent from Allah? Can a person prostrate and call upon an idol, and ask for children, as long as he doesn't believe the idol is independent from Allah? If shirk is simply beliefs, then all of those should likewise not be shirk. The act of calling upon other than Allah, for things only Allah can provide, during times of need, to dead people, is very significant in the Quran and is contrary to tawheed: https://quran.com/27:62/tafsirs/en-tafisr-ibn-kathir

Imam Farukadin Razi said in his tafsir of the following verse:

And they worship without God what cannot harm them or benefit them, and they say, "These are our intercessors with God." Say, "Do you tell God what He does not know in the heavens or on earth?" {May He be glorified and exalted above those who engage in polytheism}

Know that we mentioned that the people sought from the Prophet (peace be upon him) a Qur'an other than this Qur'an or to change this Qur'an because it includes cursing the idols that they made as gods for themselves, so for this reason God Almighty mentioned in this verse what indicates the ugliness of idol worship, to show that despising and belittling them is right and a sure way. Know that the Almighty has narrated two things from them: One: That they used to worship idols. The second: They used to say: "These are our intercessors with Allah. As for the first, Allah has emphasised its corruption by saying: {What does not harm them or benefit them}: First: Al-Zajjaj said: He does not harm them if they do not worship him, nor does he benefit them if they worship him. Second: The one being worshipped must be more powerful than the worshipper, and these idols neither benefit nor harm at all, but these disbelievers are able to dispose of these idols sometimes by reforming and sometimes by corrupting them, and if the worshipper is more capable than the worshipped, the worship is invalid. Third: Worship(dua) is the greatest kind of glorification, and it is only befitting of the one who has produced the greatest kind of glorification, which is none other than life, reason, ability, and the interests of the living and the dead, so if all the benefits and harms are from Allah, it is only fitting that worship(dua) should be reserved for Allah. As for the second type: What Allah has narrated about them in this verse is that they said: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Know that some people have said that these disbelievers imagined that worshipping idols is more glorious than worshipping Allah. They said that we are not worthy to be occupied with the worship of Allah, but rather we are occupied with the worship of these idols, and that they will be intercessors for us with Allah Almighty. Then they differed as to how they said that the idols are our intercessors with Allah:

One of them: They believed that every region of the world is ruled by a certain spirit from the spirits of the world of the planets, so they appointed a certain idol for that spirit and engaged in the worship of that idol, with the purpose of worshipping that spirit, and then they believed that that spirit is a slave of the Supreme God and engaged in his worship.

Secondly: They used to worship the planets and claimed that the planets were the ones that were worthy of the worship of Allah, then when they saw that the planets rise and set, they put idols to them and engaged in worshiping them, with the intention of directing worship to the planets.

The third one: They placed certain talismans on those idols and idolatrous objects, and then worshipped them as the owners of talismans do.

Fourth: They placed these idols and fetishes on the images of their prophets and elders, and claimed that if they were busy venerating these statues, those elders would intercede for them with Allah, similar to the way many people today are busy venerating the graves of elders, believing that if they venerate their graves, they would intercede for them with Allah.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Can a person prostrate and call upon Isa alayhi salam, and ask him to lift him out of poverty, as long he doesn't believe Isa is independent from Allah? Can a person prostrate and call upon an idol, and ask for children, as long as he doesn't believe the idol is independent from Allah? If shirk is simply beliefs, then all of those should likewise not be shirk. The act of calling upon other than Allah, for things only Allah can provide, during times of need, to dead people, is very significant in the Quran and is contrary to tawheed: https://quran.com/27:62/tafsirs/en-tafisr-ibn-kathir

Imam Farukadin Razi said in his tafsir of the following verse:

And they worship without God what cannot harm them or benefit them, and they say, "These are our intercessors with God." Say, "Do you tell God what He does not know in the heavens or on earth?" {May He be glorified and exalted above those who engage in polytheism}

sxb let’s just stick to the example of a doctor healing the sick instead of shifting the discussion. For arguments sake I’ll answer your question above.

All those who call upon Jesus and idols do so with the belief that they’re gods meaning they worship them because they’ve ascribed divinity & attributes of lordship to them. This is why dua of mushriks is classified as worship, their action are based on beliefs they’ve about those they direct these acts of worship to. It doesn’t occur in a vacuum

The act of calling upon other than Allah, for things only Allah can provide, during times of need, to dead people, is very significant in the Quran and is contrary to tawheed

So if a muslim calls upon a doctor at the time of sickness is this shirk ?

And they worship without God what cannot harm them or benefit them, and they say, "These are our intercessors with God." Say, "Do you tell God what He does not know in the heavens or on earth?" {May He be glorified and exalted above those who engage in polytheism}

The ayah is refuting the belief of these mushriks who believed that their gods had the ability to harm and benefit them. These gods can never do what the idolaters had claimed about them.

Power to harm & benefit these are qualities of Rububiyyah and it’s on these basis they worshipped these gods. Ar razi states that the pagans worshipped their idols believing that they would intercede for them now does any muslim say that they're worshipping others beside Allah.

 

[Mudug_gyal]

Stop whining to others and learn to defend your beliefs on your own kiddo

Bleach Blond Bad build Butch body.

 

[World]

sxb let’s just stick to the example of a doctor healing the sick instead of shifting the discussion. For arguments sake I’ll answer your question above.

All those who call upon Jesus and idols do so with the belief that they’re gods meaning they worship them because they’ve ascribed divinity & attributes of lordship to them. This is why dua of mushriks is classified as worship, their action are based on beliefs they’ve about those they direct these acts of worship to. It doesn’t occur in a vacuum


So if a muslim calls upon a doctor at the time of sickness is this shirk ?



The ayah is refuting the belief of these mushriks who believed that their gods had the ability to harm and benefit them. These gods can never do what the idolaters had claimed about them.

Power to harm & benefit these are qualities of Rububiyyah and it’s on these basis they worshipped these gods. Ar razi states that the pagans worshipped their idols believing that they would intercede for them now does any muslim say that they're worshipping others beside Allah.

Then why did al-Razi say this:

Fourth: They placed these idols and fetishes on the images of their prophets and elders, and claimed that if they were busy venerating these statues, those elders would intercede for them with Allah, similar to the way many people today are busy venerating the graves of elders, believing that if they venerate their graves, they would intercede for them with Allah.

You said now does any muslim say that? Yet he clearly believed many people of his time were commiting grave worship, there is nothing about their intentions mentioned. Rather they were engaged in ta’zeem of graves. Going to graves, prostrating to them, supplicating dead men to "please gift me a son" is ta’zeem of graves, and why would they engage in this if they believe that it's useless and of no benefit?

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Then why did al-Razi say this:



You said now does any muslim say that? Yet he clearly believed many people of his time were commiting grave worship, there is nothing about their intentions mentioned. Rather they were engaged in ta’zeem of graves. Going to graves, prostrating to them, supplicating dead men to "please gift me a son" is ta’zeem of graves, and why would they engage in this if they believe that it's useless and of no benefit?

sxb i believe that you're projecting your own understanding on ar razi's explanation. He starts off by saying

Know that we mentioned that the people sought from the Prophet (peace be upon him) a Qur'an other than this Qur'an or to change this Qur'an because it includes cursing the idols that they made as gods for themselves, so for this reason God Almighty mentioned in this verse what indicates the ugliness of idol worship, to show that despising and belittling them is right and a sure way. Know that the Almighty has narrated two things from them: One: That they used to worship idols. The second: They used to say: "These are our intercessors with Allah.

In that explanation ar razi states that these people believed that their idols were the their gods and that they worshipped them believing that they would intercede for them. He goes on to explain the ridiculousness of worshipping idols that these people are able to reform and corrupt as they please.

Meaning these idols aren't worthy of their worship since they are able to change them with their own hands and he concludes by saying if the worshipper is more capable than the worshipped, the worship is invalid. If the idols are so weak that they're not able to protect themselves from their worshippers how are they then able to benefit the worshippers ?

yet despite this common sense it didn't stop them believing that these gods are able to benefit and harm them . Allah is using their own common sense to refute their foolishness of worshipping them.

. As for the first, Allah has emphasised its corruption by saying: {What does not harm them or benefit them}: First: Al-Zajjaj said: He does not harm them if they do not worship him, nor does he benefit them if they worship him. Second: The one being worshipped must be more powerful than the worshipper, and these idols neither benefit nor harm at all, but these disbelievers are able to dispose of these idols sometimes by reforming and sometimes by corrupting them, and if the worshipper is more capable than the worshipped, the worship is invalid.

As for the second type: What Allah has narrated about them in this verse is that they said: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Know that some people have said that these disbelievers imagined that worshipping idols is more glorious than worshipping Allah. They said that we are not worthy to be occupied with the worship of Allah, but rather we are occupied with the worship of these idols, and that they will be intercessors for us with Allah Almighty. Then they differed as to how they said that the idols are our intercessors with Allah:

Ar razi then explains how they differed when it came to seeking intercession from these idols and it's here in the fourth type of intercession that he makes a reference to people in his time. Now the question i ask is who're the people he's referring to is it muslims, christians, etc ? You just assumed they were muslims .

Also a point of note is that the comparison is with regards to veneration not grave worship, had he meant it he would've stated so. There's a big difference between venerating and worshipping a grave.

Furthermore my point stands that is do muslims believe that those they seek intercession from the deceased (at their graves) are their gods and they worship them so that they can intercede for them with Allah ? The idolators believed that their idols were their gods so they worshipped them so as to get their intercession as per razi's explanation

Yes many muslims commit alot of haram and bidah practises such as kissing, prostrating to the graves etc but this actions in and of themselves don't constitute shirk

You also refuse to accept that it is even possible for someone to call upon Jesus and idols, without believing they have divinity and attributes of lordship. This isn't a refutation of Salafis who believe that the Pagans of Arabia totally accepted the divinity and attributes of lordship of Allah, you're just going to the other extreme.

Such a thing doesn't exist simply because their calling upon them isn't just a mere ask/request but defined as worship meaning divinity and attributes of lordship have already being ascribed to them. No christian calls upon Jesus without believing he is divine and their lord similar to idol worshippers like hindus who also have ascribed divinity and attributes of lordship to their gods

If you actually believe what you wrote to be true then according to you it's possible for a muslim to call upon Allah without believing that Allah is Divine and has any attributes of lordship.

It's evident that despite claiming to be ashari you still retain some aspects of salafi theology when it comes to this issue. Shirk and worship aren't just mere acts that people carry out they're a result of having a belief about those whom they direct these acts to, it doesn't occur in vacuum

 

[World]

It's evident that despite claiming to be ashari you still retain some aspects of salafi theology when it comes to this issue. Shirk and worship aren't just mere acts that people carry out they're a result of having a belief about those whom they direct these acts to, it doesn't occur in vacuum

Abu Mu’in Al-Nasaf(4th century AH), who is the second most authoritative Maturidi theologian writes in his commentary of al-Maturidi:

“Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills.” It is possible (that it is) Shirk in Uluhiyyah and Rububiyyah, as there are amongst the polytheists who ascribe partners to Allah in creation like Majus and Christians. It is possible (that it is) shirk in ibaadah (worship) as there are among them (polytheists) who ascribed partners in worship like the polytheists among Arabs, like how Allah informs about them:
“We do not worship them except in order to get closer to Allah in proximity”. And all of it is Kufr of Allah and Shirk in Uluhiyyah, because the Ilaah is the creator and it is the object of worship in reality. Thus Shirk in creation and worship is Shirk in Rububiyyah.

And he also says in his Tafsir of Al-Fatiha:

Tawhid that is related to Uluhiyyah is that Allah is one in his Dhaat (essence) and Siffaat (attributes), …, and Tawhid that is related to worship, it is that one worships Allah alone and does not make anyone a partner in worship, He singles out Allah as Allah says “and not associate in the worship of his Lord anyone.’“[18:110]And He(swt) says” And they were not commanded except to worship Allah, [being] sincere to Him in religion”[98:5]. And the Shirk of Arabian polytheists was in worship along with their singling out Allah in Uluhiyyah according to what Allah says “And if you asked them, “Who created the heavens and earth?” they would surely say, “Allah.” Say, “[All] praise is [due] to Allah “”[31:25]. And they associated their idols with Allah in worship, as Allah informs about them through their statement “We do not worship them except in order to get closer to Allah in proximity”[39:3]. And the Shirk of Majus and Wathaniyyah (as opposed to Arabs) was in the Rububiyyah itself, so they believed in two or more (Rabbs).

And another Maturidi theologian, Abu Shakur Al-Salimi(5th century AH):

(Arabian) Polytheists are of four types: a type said that angels are daughters of Allah, and a type said that idols are daughters of Allah, and a type said that idols are partners of Allah, and a type said: neither angels or idols are daughters of Allah nor partners of Allah, rather they said that idols are like (heavenly) beings, and they are intercessors with Allah, so if they are happy with us, the supreme God is also happy with us.

So it's possible to commit major shirk(in worship) according to the classical Maturidi scholars, without the condition of shirk in Rububiyyah. And this is what al-Razi was saying about those in his times, that they were engaged in shirk in worship, by being busy in venerating the graves of elders:

Fourth: They placed these idols and fetishes on the images of their prophets and elders, and claimed that if they were busy venerating these statues, those elders would intercede for them with Allah, similar to the way many people today are busy venerating the graves of elders, believing that if they venerate their graves, they would intercede for them with Allah.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Abu Mu’in Al-Nasaf(4th century AH), who is the second most authoritative Maturidi theologian writes in his commentary of al-Maturidi:



And he also says in his Tafsir of Al-Fatiha:


And another Maturidi theologian, Abu Shakur Al-Salimi(5th century AH):



So it's possible to commit major shirk(in worship) according to the classical Maturidi scholars, without the condition of shirk in Rububiyyah. And this is what al-Razi was saying about those in his times, that they were engaged in shirk in worship, by being busy in venerating the graves of elders:

sxb like i said previously what you're doing is just projecting your own understanding to those statements

“Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills.” It is possible (that it is) Shirk in Uluhiyyah and Rububiyyah, as there are amongst the polytheists who ascribe partners to Allah in creation like Majus and Christians. It is possible (that it is) shirk in ibaadah (worship) as there are among them (polytheists) who ascribed partners in worship like the polytheists among Arabs, like how Allah informs about them:
“We do not worship them except in order to get closer to Allah in proximity”. And all of it is Kufr of Allah and Shirk in Uluhiyyah, because the Ilaah is the creator and it is the object of worship in reality. Thus Shirk in creation and worship is Shirk in Rububiyyah.

I'll use the example of christians to emphasise the point here, we know that they're guilty of shirk in ibadah and not just rububiyyah so what's the connection here ? it's in the explanation itself where he says that the ilah is the creator and object of worship as such shirk in worship is shirk in rububiyyah. Meaning worship and rububiyyah are connected, they're not separate from each other and it's impossible to for one to have tawheed in one rububiyyah and be guilty of shirk in worship.

Now i ask you since al nasaf didn't include christians among those guilty of shirk in worship does it mean that he actually believed they weren't guilty of shirk in worship ?

Tawhid that is related to Uluhiyyah is that Allah is one in his Dhaat (essence) and Siffaat (attributes), …, and Tawhid that is related to worship, it is that one worships Allah alone and does not make anyone a partner in worship, He singles out Allah as Allah says “and not associate in the worship of his Lord anyone.’“[18:110]And He(swt) says” And they were not commanded except to worship Allah, [being] sincere to Him in religion”[98:5]. And the Shirk of Arabian polytheists was in worship along with their singling out Allah in Uluhiyyah according to what Allah says “And if you asked them, “Who created the heavens and earth?” they would surely say, “Allah.” Say, “[All] praise is [due] to Allah “”[31:25]. And they associated their idols with Allah in worship, as Allah informs about them through their statement “We do not worship them except in order to get closer to Allah in proximity”[39:3]. And the Shirk of Majus and Wathaniyyah (as opposed to Arabs) was in the Rububiyyah itself, so they believed in two or more (Rabbs).

In the previous explanation al nasaf concludes by saying that shirk in worship is shirk in rububiyyah since ilah is the creator and object of worship. In the above quote he states that shirk of arabian polytheists was in worship but they single out Allah in His Uluhiyyah, this can't be true as the pagan arabs believed Allah had daughters meaning they didn't single Him out in His Dhaat & Sifat

The pagans of arabia ascribed daughters to Allah and believed they were angels

“Has then your Lord distinguished/honoured you by (giving you) sons, and taken unto Himself daughters in the guise of angels? Verily, you are uttering a dreadful saying!” [17:40] “Have you seen Lat and Uzza? And another, the third Manat? What! for you the male child, and for Him, the female?” [53:19/21]


Allah tells us that they took these angels as Lords besides Him

And neither did he bid you to take the angels and the prophets for your lords: [for] would he bid you to deny the truth after you have surrendered yourselves unto God?” [3:80]


They also took their gods as protectors beside Allah

Unquestionably, for Allāh is the pure religion. And those who take protectors besides Him [say], "We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allāh in position." Indeed, Allāh will judge between them concerning that over which they differ. Indeed, Allāh does not guide he who is a liar and [confirmed] disbeliever. [39:3]

(Arabian) Polytheists are of four types: a type said that angels are daughters of Allah, and a type said that idols are daughters of Allah, and a type said that idols are partners of Allah, and a type said: neither angels or idols are daughters of Allah nor partners of Allah, rather they said that idols are like (heavenly) beings, and they are intercessors with Allah, so if they are happy with us, the
supreme God is also happy with us.

Did you know that the pagans of arabia believed that heavenly bodies were the causes of events on earth such as attributing rain to the stars.


Zaid bin Khalid (May Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) led the Fajr prayer at Al-Hudaibiyyah after a rainfall during the night. At the conclusion of prayer, he turned towards the people and said, "Do you know what your Rubb has said?'' They replied: "Allah and His Messenger know better.'' Upon this he remarked, "He has said: `Some of My slaves have entered the morning as My believers and some as unbelievers. He who said: We have had a rainfall due to the Grace and Mercy of Allah, believes in Me and disbelieves in the stars; and he who said: We have had a rainfall due to the rising of such and such star, disbelieves in Me and affirms his faith in the stars.'''

To summarize these pagans didn't just believe that their gods were just mere intercessors lacking any sort of ability or power to benefit their worshippers.


Look at what imam razi has to say about the intercession of the mushriks

Imam al-Razi, in his Quranic commentary for the verse 40:18, writes:

إن القوم كانوا يقولون في الأصنام إنها شفعاؤنا عند الله وكانوا يقولون إنها تشفع لنا عند الله من غير حاجة فيه إلى إذن الله، ولهذا السبب رد الله تعالى عليهم ذلك بقوله
{ مَن ذَا ٱلَّذِى يَشْفَعُ عِندَهُ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِهِ }[البقرة: 255]

He (rahimahullah) explains (roughly) that the polytheists say their idols are an intercessor to Allah and that they intercede with Allah without requiring the permission of Allah and it is for this reason that Allah says: “Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission?“[2:255]

Thereafter Imam al-Razi continues:

{فهذا يدل على أن القوم اعتقدوا أنه يجب على الله إجابة الأصنام في تلك الشفاعة، وهذا نوع طاعة، فالله تعالى نفى تلك الطاعة بقوله { مَا لِلظَّـٰلِمِينَ مِنْ حَمِيمٍ وَلاَ شَفِيعٍ يُطَاعُ

He says, this indicates that those people believed Allah must answer those idols intercession, and this is a kind of obedience. Allah Almighty has denied that obedience by saying {For the wrongdoers there will be no devoted friend and no intercessor [who is] obeyed.} [Quran 40:18]

So the following matters are addressed here with regards to the intercession as believed by the polytheists:

1) They took idols as an intercessor.

2) They believed these idols will intercede without requiring any permission of Allah.

3) They believed that Allah must obey and answer to the intercession of these idols.


How many muslims do you know of that have such beliefs as the above ?

 

[World]

sxb like i said previously what you're doing is just projecting your own understanding to those statements



I'll use the example of christians to emphasise the point here, we know that they're guilty of shirk in ibadah and not just rububiyyah so what's the connection here ? it's in the explanation itself where he says that the ilah is the creator and object of worship as such shirk in worship is shirk in rububiyyah. Meaning worship and rububiyyah are connected, they're not separate from each other and it's impossible to for one to have tawheed in one rububiyyah and be guilty of shirk in worship.

Now i ask you since al nasaf didn't include christians among those guilty of shirk in worship does it mean that he actually believed they weren't guilty of shirk in worship ?

Al Nasaf was just doing a commentary on al-Maturidi who said this:

Then His statement “Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills.” can mean Shirk in belief which is to make other than Allah partner to in His Rububiyyah and His Uluhiyyah, and second is to make other than Allah partner in His worship, and all of this is Shirk with Allah, so there is no difference if someone associates other than Allah in His Rububiyyah and His Uluhiyyah and if someone associates other than Him in His worship.. Do you not see that He says “your Ilaah (god) is one Ilaah (God).” then Allah says “and not associate in the worship of his Lord anyone.”, He made association in Rububiyyah, Uluhiyyah and association in worship same, all of it is Shirk with Allah

I'm pretty sure, this is clear for anyone who reads it and that I'm not projecting my understanding. He explicitly separates association with other than Allah in worship into it's own second category. The Christians did not worship Allah to begin with, as they believe in trinity, so they are worshiping 3 gods at the same time, not Allah alone.

In the previous explanation al nasaf concludes by saying that shirk in worship is shirk in rububiyyah since ilah is the creator and object of worship. In the above quote he states that shirk of arabian polytheists was in worship but they single out Allah in His Uluhiyyah, this can't be true as the pagan arabs believed Allah had daughters meaning they didn't single Him out in His Dhaat & Sifat

At least you can now admit the second most authoritative Maturidi figure is wrong. Let me show clearly you that al-Maturidi himself believed that the Arabian polytheists, Bani Israel, only committed shirk in worship:

al-Maturidi on Bani Israeli:

It appears as if their (Bani Israel’s) request for an Ilaah that they can worship was not to do kufr of their Rabb or reject their messenger, rather it was when they did not see themselves worthy enough to worship Allah and serve him, due to what they observed from the observable world that only specific chosen people close to a king serve him and those after serve the chosen people of king. Therefore in this manner, they asked Musa for an Ilaah that they can worship when they did not see themselves worthy to worship Allah and serve him, i.e., in order to get close to Allah via worship of these idols.
And likewise was the practice of Arabs that they used to worship idols so that they might get closer to Allah in proximity via worshiping of these idols, and likewise what is narrated about Fir’aun that he made idols for his nations which can be worshiped and bring them (people) closer to him in proximity, so on the same (pattern) was the request of these (Bani Israel) to Musa.

If that is not clear, al-Maturidi says in Tafsir of this verse:
And those who take protectors besides Him [say], "We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position.

Those who took protectors besides Allah and worshiped them, they said “We only worship them they they may bring us near to Allah in proximity”. They knew that what they worshiped from the idols and others were not Ilaah in reality and neither did they posses real Uloohiyyah (divinity), and that the real Uloohiyyah (divinity) belongs to Allah, still they named these idols Aalihah (plural of Ilaah) because they used to worship them and every thing that is worshiped was Ilaah according to the Arabs, because the Ilaah is something that is worshiped. And they used to to name every worshiped thing Ilaah, that is why they named these idols Aaliah even while knowing that these things do not possess actual/real Uloohiyyah (divinity) and that is for Allah.

Ibn Attiya(another Ashari Imam) regarding Bani Israel in his Tafsir:

And what is more closer/reasonable (than believing that they requested a separate creator/sustainer) is that they demanded for them images and representations to made, (such that) they get closer with their worship to Allah, and it is described about worship of Idols “We do not worship them except to get closer to Allah in proximity”. And all messengers have agreed by consensus that worship of anyone other than Allah is Kufr, whether it is with the prior belief of considering it the Ilaah of universe or whether the worship is to get closer to Allah

It's a complete bidah of Yasir Qadhi/hatim al awni, that it's impossible to commit shirk in worship as long as you don't believe they are independent of Allah, nobody has understood Islam like this before.

I can go on...

Imam al-Razi on why pagans are idol worshipers:

Rather what is worthy for the humans is to worship the servants of Allāh(swt) who are higher in rank, like celestial objects, like heavenly souls, thereafter, these (higher ranked beings) perform the worship of the supreme God, this is the meaning of their statement: ‘’ we do not worship them except to draw near to Allāh(swt) in proximity”. The gist of the matter regarding the idol-worshipers is that they said that the supreme God is too sublime to be worshiped by the human.

Where is this so called shirk in rububiyyah that was committed ?