Who were the Harla People and what is their relation to Somalis? Did they contribute to the modern Somali ethnogenesis?

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I have that same book it's written by some untrustworthy Harari guy Enrico and Pankhurst translation is straight from Tarikh al-Mujahidin & Taʾrīkh al-mulūk manuscripts

Ahmed Sami can’t be untrust worthy. He is the goat that provided several important documents to various different European institutions

like I said show me where it says that prior to 1647 there were non Karanle leaders at awssa. I will wait.

 

[Ugas.Wacays]

Ahmed Sami can't be untrust worthy. He is the goat that provided several important documents to various different European institutions

View attachment 322147

like I said show me where it says that prior to 1647 there were non Karanle leaders at awssa. I will wait.

What? Karanle was never mentioned and issa garad took over 1628.

Here is a page of Taʾrīkh al-mulūk: The day of Monday, the month of Dhu al-Hijjah, was twenty-two in the aforementioned year, and the fighting took place between them on the day of the quarter, one in the holy month of Muharram. In the year thirty-six after the thousand, they killed Imam Idrah and Al-Jarad Muhammad on that day, and after them Imam Omar Din, son of Prince Ahmad Din, took office on the day of Thursday, the 2nd of the month of Muharram, in the year thirty-six after the thousand, and the locusts disobeyed Muhammad bin Al-Jarad Issa in Bandar Zaila on the 22nd day of the month of Ramadan, and he took office on the day of Eid. Al-Fitr in Zaila, and he headed to Awsa in the aforementioned year, and he and Imam Omardin faced each other on the day of Thursday, the 7th of the month of Dhul-Hijjah, the year thirty-seven after the millennium, and Imam Omardin was deposed on that day, and the mandate of Imam Muhammad bin Al-Jarad Isa was valid, and Imam Muhammad bin Al-Jarad Isa invaded the Aromo and Wardaya on Monday, the 23rd of the month. Rabi’ al-Awwal in the year forty after the thousand, and he arrived with aid and victory on Monday, the month of Rabi’ al-Awwal in the aforementioned year, and Imam Muhammad bin al-Jarad Isa moved on the day of the third month of Muharram 6 in the holy month of Muharram in the year forty-three after the thousand. His term of office was five years, and after him his brother Imam Adam bin al-Jarad Isa took over in that position. Today and also, Imam Adam was killed on the day of the third month of Dhul-Hijjah, the sacred month of Dhu al-Hijjah, in the year fifty-seven after the millennium, at the time of the forenoon. The Oromo had invaded Al-Adha’il, plundered, and returned. After that, Al-Adha’il arrived and sought help from Imam Adam, and he went out, following them with Al-Makhad and his brothers into their land, and after that, he, his sons, and his servants entered upon them.... As for the horses, they all surrendered, and Vizier Ibrahim and left... and Al-Jarad Suleiman bin Imam Muhammad arrived on the first night of Al-Rabu’ 12 in the aforementioned month, and after him in the morning of Al-Rabu’ in the month of Dhul-Hijjah fifty-seven after the thousand, Imam Ibrahim bin Al-Jarad Issa, and God Almighty inspires him with justice in the subjects and calms strife. Also, Imam Ibrahim bin Al-Jarad Issa moved in the month of Safar on the day, oh for two, and the nephew of Imam Suleiman took office after him in the aforementioned month in the year sixty-seven after the thousand. He had a good biography and a complete relationship with the Sayyids, meaning the nobles from the Ba’alawi family and the sheikhs, and he married three of the Sayyids’ daughters, and he did so every year. Four birthdays of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, so much so that he clothed everyone who attended his birthdays.

 

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What? Karanle was never mentioned and issa garad took over 1628.

Here is a page of Taʾrīkh al-mulūk: The day of Monday, the month of Dhu al-Hijjah, was twenty-two in the aforementioned year, and the fighting took place between them on the day of the quarter, one in the holy month of Muharram. In the year thirty-six after the thousand, they killed Imam Idrah and Al-Jarad Muhammad on that day, and after them Imam Omar Din, son of Prince Ahmad Din, took office on the day of Thursday, the 2nd of the month of Muharram, in the year thirty-six after the thousand, and the locusts disobeyed Muhammad bin Al-Jarad Issa in Bandar Zaila on the 22nd day of the month of Ramadan, and he took office on the day of Eid. Al-Fitr in Zaila, and he headed to Awsa in the aforementioned year, and he and Imam Omardin faced each other on the day of Thursday, the 7th of the month of Dhul-Hijjah, the year thirty-seven after the millennium, and Imam Omardin was deposed on that day, and the mandate of Imam Muhammad bin Al-Jarad Isa was valid, and Imam Muhammad bin Al-Jarad Isa invaded the Aromo and Wardaya on Monday, the 23rd of the month. Rabi’ al-Awwal in the year forty after the thousand, and he arrived with aid and victory on Monday, the month of Rabi’ al-Awwal in the aforementioned year, and Imam Muhammad bin al-Jarad Isa moved on the day of the third month of Muharram 6 in the holy month of Muharram in the year forty-three after the thousand. His term of office was five years, and after him his brother Imam Adam bin al-Jarad Isa took over in that position. Today and also, Imam Adam was killed on the day of the third month of Dhul-Hijjah, the sacred month of Dhu al-Hijjah, in the year fifty-seven after the millennium, at the time of the forenoon. The Oromo had invaded Al-Adha’il, plundered, and returned. After that, Al-Adha’il arrived and sought help from Imam Adam, and he went out, following them with Al-Makhad and his brothers into their land, and after that, he, his sons, and his servants entered upon them.... As for the horses, they all surrendered, and Vizier Ibrahim and left... and Al-Jarad Suleiman bin Imam Muhammad arrived on the first night of Al-Rabu’ 12 in the aforementioned month, and after him in the morning of Al-Rabu’ in the month of Dhul-Hijjah fifty-seven after the thousand, Imam Ibrahim bin Al-Jarad Issa, and God Almighty inspires him with justice in the subjects and calms strife. Also, Imam Ibrahim bin Al-Jarad Issa moved in the month of Safar on the day, oh for two, and the nephew of Imam Suleiman took office after him in the aforementioned month in the year sixty-seven after the thousand. He had a good biography and a complete relationship with the Sayyids, meaning the nobles from the Ba’alawi family and the sheikhs, and he married three of the Sayyids’ daughters, and he did so every year. Four birthdays of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, so much so that he clothed everyone who attended his birthdays.

What I meant about Karanle was Gurey’s family. The Ciise took over from the Karanle which I knew way back in time.

My argument is that Gurey’s family held the Imamate till 1647 while you state that Ciise took over 1600. You went on further to say that my statement is false. I’m waiting for what you have to show. I’m all about reasoning.

 

[Idilinaa]

Didn't Harla have kingdoms fomr the 6th century?
Why did Futuh specifically claim Harla as a separate tribe from somalis ?
I never seen an ciise harla ever claim darood

There is no Harla Kingdom. They don't appear as a documented clan until Ibn Said mentions them and after that they are mention as clan group among other ones. No specific prominence is given to them.

The region of Hoobad had an organized town as early as the 6th century based on archeology.

I gave you 3 interviews and genealogy collection where they claim to descend from Darood.

As explained on page 2:

Copied posts with some information about Harla shared from the other thread:

Anyone who wants clarity on the matter can read this:

 

[Ugas.Wacays]

What I meant about Karanle was Gurey’s family. The Ciise took over from the Karanle which I knew way back in time.

My argument is that Gurey’s family held the Imamate till 1647 while you state that Ciise took over 1600. You went on further to say that my statement is false. I’m waiting for what you have to show. I’m all about reasoning.

Whats? Karanle are not even mentioned in the manuscript.

Here is another page from that manuscript :

Then came the reign of Imam 198 'Umar-Din al-Madayti, the Shafi'ite, in the city of Aussa in the month of the solemn Sha'ban of the year 1008 (1600) .199 And then after Imam 'Umar the son of Ziyad came to reign in the month of Jumad al-Awwal

Enrico notes tell us that al Madayti is not related to Ahmed guray

This new monarch of Aussa has, therefore, the title of Imam afresh, without being though as it seems to be a member of Imam Ahmed ibn Ibrahim's family (see p. 180 note 166). But with the lapse of time and owing to the isolation of other Muslim centres, the title of Imam met its end in Aussa

 

[Ugas.Wacays]

There is no Harla Kingdom. They don't appear as a documented clan until Ibn Said mentions them and after that they are mention as clan group among other ones. No specific prominence is given to them.

The region of Hoobad had an organized town as early as the 6th century based on archeology.

I gave you 3 interviews and genealogy collection where they claim to descend from Darood.

As explained on page 2:

Harlas already had well established cities in 6th- 10th century they were trading with Ayyubid and Tang states based on archeological studies. Harlas are older than Daroods

Archaeologists in Ethiopia uncover ancient city in Harlaa

Artefacts from as far as Egypt, India and China were found in the city in the Harlaa region.

www.bbc.com

 

[Idilinaa]

Harlas already had well established cities in 6th- 10th century they were trading with Ayyubid and Tang states based on archeological studies. Harlas are older than Daroods
View attachment 322268

Archaeologists in Ethiopia uncover ancient city in Harlaa

Artefacts from as far as Egypt, India and China were found in the city in the Harlaa region.

www.bbc.com

That's a news article. If you going to post something , you should post an actual academic study on the place.

Material cosmopolitanism: the entrepot of Harlaa as an Islamic gateway to eastern Ethiopia​

Material cosmopolitanism: the entrepot of Harlaa as an Islamic gateway to eastern Ethiopia | Antiquity | Cambridge Core

Material cosmopolitanism: the entrepot of Harlaa as an Islamic gateway to eastern Ethiopia - Volume 95 Issue 380

www.cambridge.org

It's now called Harlaa by Oromos who migrated into the area . But it was actually called Hobaad which is what Somalis and Arabic sources from that period call it still.

Harla is just a clan among other clans and Hobaad was just a large town among other towns in the same region. The town was affiliated to the Awdal/Awfat sultanates.

 

[Ugas.Wacays]

That's a news article. If you going to post something , you should post an actual academic study on the place.

Material cosmopolitanism: the entrepot of Harlaa as an Islamic gateway to eastern Ethiopia​

Material cosmopolitanism: the entrepot of Harlaa as an Islamic gateway to eastern Ethiopia | Antiquity | Cambridge Core

Material cosmopolitanism: the entrepot of Harlaa as an Islamic gateway to eastern Ethiopia - Volume 95 Issue 380

www.cambridge.org

It's now called Harlaa by Oromos who migrated into the area . But it was actually called Hobaad which is what Somalis and Arabic sources from that period call it still.

Harla is just a clan among other clans and Hobaad was just a large town among other towns in the same region. The town was affiliated to the Awdal/Awfat sultanates.

Nothing you posted states harla ìs somali but if you do find a study that ,does let me know

 

[Idilinaa]

Nothing you posted states harla ìs somali but if you do find a study that ,does let me know

That study i linked doesn't make a judgement on their identity. What it shows is there is no Harla Kingdom but there was a large town called Hoobad.

I and some others believe Harla was just regular agro-pastoral Somali clan based on the written ethnographical, genealogical and archeological sources which i have shown on page 2 and throughout this thread.

You are welcome disagree if you want. I am not gonna stick around and argue for the sake of it

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

Harlas already had well established cities in 6th- 10th century they were trading with Ayyubid and Tang states based on archeological studies. Harlas are older than Daroods
View attachment 322268

Archaeologists in Ethiopia uncover ancient city in Harlaa

Artefacts from as far as Egypt, India and China were found in the city in the Harlaa region.

www.bbc.com

The Darood point is minor and not particularly relevant. What specific clans were in them or they descended from is not vitally important.

The point of this and the other thread is that it was an old Somali entity!

I don't believe it was one single clan or sub clan but a agro-pastoralist confederacy akin to the modern Rahanweyne that were Somalis. This definition has no issue with the age of the old town of Hobaad.

The craftsmanship at Hobaad is identical to that found inside Somalia itself. The people of Hobaad also ate seafood from the Red Sea. The simplest and most elegant solution is that Harla were simply settled Somali- all evidence points that way.

Otherwise we will have to look for ghosts that despite inhabiting such a vast area disappeared without trace and a complete lack of any genetic signature amongst Somalis today that would suggest their absorption.

 

[Step a side]

Whats? Karanle are not even mentioned in the manuscript.

Here is another page from that manuscript :

Then came the reign of Imam 198 'Umar-Din al-Madayti, the Shafi'ite, in the city of Aussa in the month of the solemn Sha'ban of the year 1008 (1600) .199 And then after Imam 'Umar the son of Ziyad came to reign in the month of Jumad al-Awwal

Enrico notes tell us that al Madayti is not related to Ahmed guray

This new monarch of Aussa has, therefore, the title of Imam afresh, without being though as it seems to be a member of Imam Ahmed ibn Ibrahim's family (see p. 180 note 166). But with the lapse of time and owing to the isolation of other Muslim centres, the title of Imam met its end in Aussa

Did some extra reading this morning. I was right all along. Gurey’s family member was the last imam at 1672. The guy on the bottom of that list you showed is Imam Umar Diin ibn Imam Adam who is Son of Malaq Adan Sadiq who was son of Imam Sadiq Sabraddiin who was the great grandson of Gasa who’s members were the governors of Bale during the Adal empire.

You understand French? Read this. It agrees with everything you and I posted so far. You just didn’t examine it carefully. 1600 an Arab dynasty comes into power only for a son of Ahmed Diin (Gurey’s family) to come back in 1626. 1628 Ciise Garaads took over as imam only for Gurey’s family to take it again at the very end.

Last few lines translated below

Mahammad Il b. Ibrähim-Gäsa took the Áwsa into his hands and executed 'Abbas. The Afars ("Adã'il" in Cerulli's chronicle) enter into rebellion, Emir Zahl and heganó Häsim are killed. These disorders favour new oromos raids. In 1589, after the death of Mahammad II b. Ibrähim- Gasa, the new Emir Ahmad-Din fights effectively against the Oromos, but he died in battle in 1590. The new succession quarrels (1590-1600)

Are completed by the enthronement of the Arab imam 'Umar-Din al-Madayti as-Safi'1 (1600-1611), who do not belong to the family of "Grañ". In 1607, at the advent of Susonyos, as a sign of allegiance or will for peace, he

Sends the traditional gifts to the King of Ethiopia. Under his successors, 'Umar b. Ziyad (1611-1620), Adrüh b. Tadrüs (1620-1626), the dissensions

Take back and bring back to power a son of the Emir Ahmad-Din, 'Umar-Din (1626-1628). If the pressure of the Oromos on the oasis decreases, internal conflicts lead to the irreversible decline of the power of imams, unable to

Maintain links with the two historical poles of the Adal. Zeyla

 

[Step a side]

That's a news article. If you going to post something , you should post an actual academic study on the place.

Material cosmopolitanism: the entrepot of Harlaa as an Islamic gateway to eastern Ethiopia​

Material cosmopolitanism: the entrepot of Harlaa as an Islamic gateway to eastern Ethiopia | Antiquity | Cambridge Core

Material cosmopolitanism: the entrepot of Harlaa as an Islamic gateway to eastern Ethiopia - Volume 95 Issue 380

www.cambridge.org

It's now called Harlaa by Oromos who migrated into the area . But it was actually called Hobaad which is what Somalis and Arabic sources from that period call it still.

Harla is just a clan among other clans and Hobaad was just a large town among other towns in the same region. The town was affiliated to the Awdal/Awfat sultanates.

Hobat is still known by the locals. Hobat is basically the strip of green between Kondudo to Babile and the green slightly below it. They are valleys with greenery, hills and mountains. The brown area is the pasture land for nomadic livestock.

Erer and Dakhato are valleys that break off from the southeastern shabelle river and ends in Kondura. Dakhato Valley is at the low pits of the mountain region. Hobat gets its name from the steep mountains that trail towards the end valley.

Here is 11th grade Ethiopian history lesson they teach in schools .

Qundhura aka Kundudo is the heart of it. It is where the old Hawiye use to crown their Garads that later produced the line of Ahmed Gurey and other Hawiye lineages.

I touched on it a bit more on here

Post in thread 'Futuh al-Habasha: Somalis As Bedouins'
https://www.somalispot.com/threads/futuh-al-habasha-somalis-as-bedouins.163690/post-3970187

 

[Idilinaa]

Hobat is still known by the locals. Hobat is basically the strip of green between Kondudo to Babile and the green slightly below it. They are valleys with greenery, hills and mountains. The brown area is the pasture land for nomadic livestock.


View attachment 322323


Erer and Dakhato are valleys that break off from the southeastern shabelle river and ends in Kondura. Dakhato Valley is at the low pits of the mountain region. Hobat gets its name from the steep mountains that trail towards the end valley.

Here is 11th grade Ethiopian history lesson they teach in schools .

View attachment 322324

Qundhura aka Kundudo is the heart of it. It is where the old Hawiye use to crown their Garads that later produced the line of Ahmed Gurey and other Hawiye lineages.

I touched on it a bit more on here

Post in thread 'Futuh al-Habasha: Somalis As Bedouins'
https://www.somalispot.com/threads/futuh-al-habasha-somalis-as-bedouins.163690/post-3970187

As for Imam Ahmed, Futuh or any other sources don't mention where he is born or what his clan is. So they are making associations out of thin air. Like most of their claims. I

Hoobaad exists on a slope thats a midway point between the highlands and the lowlands thats what the name means . ''Descended on a slope''.

 

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Again Hobat is slightly north east of Harar

You will find old medieval Hawiye towns all over the region east of Harar. In fact one of the Kebele of Harar district is called Irir Hawiye Kebele.

Few examples of those towns within Harar district. Even Aw Cumar and Ali Keno are Karanle towns named after old figures buried near Harar.

Qundhura was the centre of Hobat. The imam or his soldiers did use it lakin as a military outpost. The oldest feral horses in SSA Africa are found here. They are known as the Kundudo pack. Must have been a military out

 

[Idilinaa]

Researchers and archeologist have already determined it's location you are welcome to read what i shared. It's in a specific point in that general area called ''Ganda Harlaa''

 

[Step a side]

As for Imam Ahmed, Futuh or any other sources don't mention where he is born or what his clan is. So they are making associations out of thin air. Like most of their claims. I

Hoobaad exists on a slope thats a midway point between the highlands and the lowlands thats what the name means . ''Descended on a slope''.

Nah you flopped. Imam’s lineage is set in stone by reer hararge. His lineage is more known than the Harla you are referring to as Darood. His entire abtirsi including the hordes of cousins and nephews he had were known passed on generations to generations even amongst the culema of Harar. Furthermore this family had so much influence in shaping the Horn that even as late as the 19th century Paulitschke’s described Reer Ibrahim (Gurey’s father) formed the most important Fakids, Tariqa or sect in Harar, referring to the Salahiya of whom Sayyid Mohamed Khalifa, Sheikh Hassan Barsane and Sayid Abdulle Hassan and many more were part off

In Mekuria’s book in the text below, when studying Karanle’s lineage he quotes Burton who affirms the Rer Ibrahim of Karanle skip several names in their lineage/ multiply the number of branches as is customary of the Somali clan system

This text above also proofs that Harla kingdom was separate from Hobat so the lines are still blurry on how Harla and Hobat connect.

 

[Step a side]

Researchers and archeologist have already determined it's location you are welcome to read what i shared. It's in a specific point in that general area called ''Ganda Harlaa''

Hobat is my dhul bro. I can take you on a tour. It’s not a mystical place. It’s similar to your Garoowe. Your research doesn’t disagree with me. Even the Oromo speaking Somalis who live there will tell you where it is.

 

[Idilinaa]

Nah you flopped. Imam’s lineage is set in stone by reer hararge. His lineage is more known than the Harla you are referring to as Darood. His entire abtirsi including the hordes of cousins and nephews he had were known passed on generations to generations even amongst the culema of Harar. Furthermore this family had so much influence in shaping the Horn that even as late as the 19th century Paulitschke’s described Reer Ibrahim (Gurey’s father) formed the most important Fakids, Tariqa or sect in Harar, referring to the Salahiya of whom Sayyid Mohamed Khalifa, Sheikh Hassan Barsane and Sayid Abdulle Hassan and many more were part off

In Mekuria’s book in the text below, when studying Karanle’s lineage he quotes Burton who affirms the Rer Ibrahim of Karanle skip several names in their lineage/ multiply the number of branches as is customary of the Somali clan system

This text above also proofs that Harla kingdom was separated from Hobat so the lines are still blurry on how they all connect.

I've read this before about the research to determine his clan. Could very well be a possibility that he is connected to a Bah of some sort as there was a lot political marriage alliances. So i am not disputing it but with holding my judgment on the specifics.

Futuh does not say where he was born or where Hoobat is or draws any connections.

 

[Ugas.Wacays]

Did some extra reading this morning. I was right all along. Gurey’s family member was the last imam at 1672. The guy on the bottom of that list you showed is Imam Umar Diin ibn Imam Adam who is Son of Malaq Adan Sadiq who was son of Imam Sadiq Sabraddiin who was the great grandson of Gasa who’s members were the governors of Bale during the Adal empire.

View attachment 322315

You understand French? Read this. It agrees with everything you and I posted so far. You just didn’t examine it carefully. 1600 an Arab dynasty comes into power only for a son of Ahmed Diin (Gurey’s family) to come back in 1626. 1628 Ciise Garaads took over as imam only for Gurey’s family to take it again at the very end.


View attachment 322314

Last few lines translated below

You proved my point Imam Umar-Din al-Madayti wasn't from his line, Issa Garad dynasty fought Umar-Din bin Ahmed -Din and took the throne, Afars weren't mentioned until Imam Adams time 1638, Ahmed Gurey is not Harla nothing supports this claim and Imam Umar-Din bin Adam was Imam 'Adb ar-rahman brother both were ciise

 

[Step a side]

I've read this before about the research to determine his clan. Could very well be a possibility that he is connected to a Bah of some sort as there was a lot political marriage alliances. So i am not disputing it but with holding my judgment on the specifics.

Futuh does not say where he was born or where Hoobat is or draws any connections.

Kkk Gurey, his ancestors before him, his descendants after him (whom also formed their own principalities) were all known. Karanle dominated the religion, fighting and trade of Hararge since the days of Ifat up to colonial times when their descendants formed some of the most prominent tariqa that shaped the Horn as we know today. Oromo know this. Ethiopia as a whole knows this. Western orientalist scholars know this. Hawiye and the non Hawiye educated Somalis know this. To them, a Karanle win is a Somali win.

Gurey’s father aka Al Ghazi was chief of all Karanle and Hawiye tribes of Hobat which was the Mogadishu of Western Somalia. Emir Abu Bakr al Hawiye eplaced him in Hobat. Gragn and his father have ruled Adal but the majority Karanle line who ruled Adal was the Adash and Mahfuz family. Mohamed Ibrahim Gasa's line were the majority Awsa line. They are all connected as outlined by Ahmed Sami the foremost Harari historian whose works are kept under the institute of Ethiopian studies.