Zayli grave in mecca from the 9th century

[Shimbiris]

Becuase when you hear the word empire I imagined they controlled a large portion of Ethiopia then invaded yemen. Bu if you look at thr map it becomes clear how close the section of yemem they invaded and controlled is.

The thing that misled and confused me was Mani supposedly touting Aksum as one of the powers of the world. Back then I instantly assumed it must have been big and comparable to something like the Iranic Empires and the Greco-Roman Empires.

In reality, it was probably just notable given it was in control of a chokepoint of trade along the Red Sea and could influence global commerce that way but otherwise it doesn't seem to me that they controlled much beyond Northern Eritrea, the Tigray region, maybe a bit of eastern Amhara and then parts of western Yemen and Sudan during conquest periods like Aezana's which didn't exactly last as generational holdings.

 

[Midas]

The thing that misled and confused me was Mani supposedly touting Aksum as one of the powers of the world. Back then I instantly assumed it must have been big and comparable to something like the Iranic Empires and the Greco-Roman Empires.

In reality, it was probably just notable given it was in control of a chokepoint of trade along the Red Sea and could influence global commerce that way but otherwise it doesn't seem to me that they controlled much beyond Northern Eritrea, the Tigray region, maybe a bit of eastern Amhara and then parts of western Yemen and Sudan during conquest periods like Aezana's which didn't exactly last as generational holdings.

The actual fourth great empire in man'is time was the kushan empire which ruled a huge part of northern India. They also massively influenced Asia and played a huge role in spreading buddhism to central and east asia

This is what a real empire and major world power sounds like

 

[Idilinaa]

The discovery of a Zayla’i/Jabarti grave inscription in Mecca from the 9th century aligns with what we already know about Somali presence in early Islamic history. For instance, Ibrahim ibn Abdullah Al-Zayla’i Al-Askari, a Somali Hadith narrator, studied under the same Sheikh as Al-Daraqutni and Al-Tabari in the 9th century.

Somali Hadith Narrator in the 9th Century

Ibrahim ibn Abdullah ibn Muhammad Al Zayla’i Al Askari. Since his Sheikh died in 856 A.D. (245 A.H.) I’m Assuming he would have to have been born by 830. He, Al Daraqutni, and Al Tabari (RA) studied under the same Sheikh.

www.somalispot.com

I'll share more of my own thoughts to this thread in a of couple days and clarify some misconceptions

 

[Idilinaa]

Interesting discussion between @Midas,@Shimbiris, @NidarNidar, @Abdirazaq . I'll add my 2 cents to this, tried to structure it a bit to make it more coherent.

Somalis have always recorded their history. They kept written records of important events, and we still have many surviving chronicles and manuscripts documenting this.

Medieval Sources

Several written sources from the medieval period provide valuable insight into Somali history:

• Tarikh Al Wali Asma (The History of the Supreme Rulers) – Also known as Hikaya fi qissat tarikh Umar Walasma wa-ansabihi wa muddat wilayatihi and Wa Kana Wafat (13th-15th century), documenting the consolidation of the Sultanates.
• Futuh Al-Habasha (Tuhfat al-Zaman in local variation) – Chronicles the wars against Abyssinia.
• Tarikh Al-Mulukh (The History of Kings) & Tarikh Al-Mujahideen (The History of the Holy War) – Document the later stages of conquest and the later years of the Bar Sa’adin Sultanate.
• Awsa Chronicles – Record the Harla-Issa dynasty-led Awsa State (16th-17th century).
• Gadabursi Chronicle – Details Imam Ali Sai’d’s role alongside the Sultan of Awdal and Ugas Malik’s resistance to Oromo invasions (14th-16th century).
• Harar Chronicles – Document the Dawud Dynasty and their successful resistance against the Oromo (16th-18th century).

Even abroad, Somali history was recorded in sources found in Yemen, mentioning the Northern Sultanates. Some texts reference Somali authors like Ibrahim al-Jabarti, proving Somalis actively engaged in recording and sharing history.

For example, one source states: "It was stated in what I have seen of the handwriting of Faqih Ibrahim bin Abi Bakr bin Ibrahim bin Omar bin Ahnbar al-Jabarti al-Wadi."

There's also reference to a manuscript chronicling Darood's arrival from 1413, found in possession of a Warsangeli Abaan. However, colonial interpretations (like Richard Burton's claims about Christian chiefs) should be taken with a grain of salt. Burton, for instance, pushed false theories about Somalis being Arab-mixed immigrants who displaced native "pagan or Christian" inhabitants, claims that lack evidence. No Christian is going to wear the Islamic administrative title “Wazir”

The existence of Abdurrahman bin Ismail al-Jabarti is confirmed in Rasulid documents about his father Ismail Jabarti, reinforcing the deep-rooted historical record-keeping among Somalis.

(Note: In medieval Arabic sources, "Al-Habash" did not exclusively mean Abyssinia—it referred to the entire Horn of Africa.)

There is also a manuscripts about Ismail Jabarti genealogy in the Harar collection that Ed Wagnar found authored by a Majerteen scholar Abu Bakr Al Jaberti dated to 1732 (1145 hijriah)

Somali Written Traditions

It’s clear that most Somali historical traditions stemmed from textual sources. When European explorers in the 19th century asked Somalis about history, they often had to consult private Arabic texts before answering.

Tradition to Text: Writing Local Somali History in the Travel Narrative of Charles Guillain (1846-48)

Tradition to Text: Writing Local Somali History in the Travel Narrative of Charles Guillain (1846-48) on JSTOR

Lee Cassanelli, Tradition to Text: Writing Local Somali History in the Travel Narrative of Charles Guillain (1846-48), Journal of African Cultural Studies, Vol. 18, No. 1, Language, Power and Society: Orality and Literacy in the Horn of Africa (Jun., 2006), pp. 57-71

www.jstor.org

For example, Charles Guillain's travel narratives show that Somalis referenced written agreements, diplomatic alliances, and foundation dates.

One specific case involved a Darood genealogy collection from a text held by a Qadi in Hafun. Qadis are tasked with legal record keeping btw. Each town had a Qadi.

Furthermore, we now have evidence of fully written Xeer (customary law) texts dating back to 1814, a full Ajami text (Somali written in Arabic script) that show that even Xeer (customary law) was documented.

A manuscripts of xeer cisse from 1814

It's amazing what you can find my crawling through somali social media. This guy apparently found a somali ajami manuscript of xeer cisse from 1814. That's 211 years ago.

www.somalispot.com

Court documents from Harar (19th century) and Qadi record books from various cities further confirm this.

When Richard Burton visited Zeila, he noted that the local Hawiye Qadi maintained written legal records.

Modern Somali Historiography

Somali scholars in the early-modern and contemporary period continued documenting history in Somali and Arabic, often through newspapers and publishing houses.

Made a thread on this:

A Thread on Somali historians who wrote in Arabic and their works

-The great historian Ahmed Abdallah Rirash: Author of the book ''Uncovering the History of Somalia and Their Seven Kingdoms'' - Dr Ahmed Abdo Mohammed : Author of two books ''Sheikh Rashid Rida: His life and literature'' and ''Al-Tha'alibi and his book ''The Orphan of the Age'' - Sheikh...

www.somalispot.com

This language barrier shielded them from European misinformation and colonial distortions, but it also meant that much of their work was inaccessible to the wider world. When they eventually became aware of these distortions, they lacked the means to challenge them in Western languages.

For example, Said Shidaad, one of the most dedicated Somali historians and one of the few remaining experts in Somali medieval history, writes and publishes primarily in Somali and Arabic. Many of his works are found in Somali newspapers and books. . His publications and lectures document lost Somali histories, yet his work remains largely inaccessible to non-Somali speakers

Likewise, early 2000s Somali-language newspapers featured historians such as Caali Nuuri, who wrote extensively on medieval Somali history in relation to modern political developments. However, their works remain obscure due to language barriers and lack of translation.

For reference:

• SOOMAALIYA: TAARIIKH
• SOMAALIYA: AWFAAT iyo OGAADEENIYA KA BACDI
  (Source: https://www.somaliatalk.com/geedi/geedi24.html)

Researchers like Walaalwhoops on Twitter have collected books by Somali scholars that are nearly impossible to find online. These works show that Somali intellectuals still document contemporary histories, just not in European languages.

As a result instead of these authentic scholars, Western-educated Somali elites have taken over the historical discourse. Many prioritize appeasement of Western academic institutions over correcting misinformation. Their focus on gaining validation rather than preserving historical integrity has done a great disservice to Somali history.

The Colonial Myth of an "Oral Society"

The idea that Somalis were purely an oral society originates from colonialists who were denied access to Somali historical sources. European travelers frequently complained about this, resorting to underhanded tactics and deception to gain even partial access.

The Abaan system (which regulated entry into Somali territories) further frustrated them, leading them to wrongly conclude that Somalia was isolated from the world. This, despite Somalis being deeply engaged in trade and global networks for centuries.

This is why Richard Burton’s book is titled "First Footsteps in East Africa" because previous European explorers failed to enter Somali lands. They sent letters to various sultans, including the Emir of Harar, but were consistently rejected. Burton and Speke only succeeded by disguising themselves as Arab merchants and learning fluent Arabic, they used it enter illegally.

Since they couldn't access real historical records, they relied on gossip and hearsay from uninformed or random locals. This resulted in misinterpretations, hearsay, and outright fabrications in their writings, which later became the foundation of flawed Western/colonial narratives about Somalia that many scholars unknowingly built upon.

What Led to the Loss of Somali Historical Narratives?

Several factors contributed to the gap in publicly available Somali history and the spread of misinformation and pseudo-history:

1. The dominance of European languages – English and other Western languages became the gatekeepers of historical narratives, sidelining Somali and Arabic sources.
2. Colonial distortions and Political agendas – Europeans had political and ideological motives to misrepresent Somali history. Many historical accounts are shaped by political agendas and identity that seek to distort Somalia’s past to conform to contemporary politics. Other times they seek to distort it conform to Ethiopian expanionist narratives.
3. Displacement and dispossession – Many Somali scholars lost institutional backing due to war and instability. Some were forced into exile, while others had to abandon their historical work for survival and had to take up new career paths.
4. Western-educated Somali elites – Many do a disservice to Somali historical scholarship. Instead of correcting distortions, they either push political agendas or seek Western validation, avoiding confrontations with false narratives.

Even Said Shidad has spoken about this in his lectures, specifically during his presentation on the Nugaal ruins.

At the end of the day, Somalis have always written their own history. The challenge now is bridging the language gap and pushing back against misinformation to ensure that Somali historical narratives are properly represented in discourse.

 

[Idilinaa]

Maxed out the cap space for words to include these

Court documents from Harar (19th century) and Qadi record books from various cities further confirm this.

And this book doesn't show oral tradition or opinions but actually takes the details and information from the various Qadi records of Barawa, that was kept by the inhabitants. And it's a very important primary source on the Town.

When Richard Burton visited Zeila, he noted that the local Hawiye Qadi maintained written legal records.

 

[Idilinaa]

I respectfully disagree with @Shimbiris on prioritizing PR maintenance. Frankly, we should care less about what outsiders think of us. What truly matters is our control over internal narratives and our educational system.


Sada Mire exemplifies the Western academic elite I previously criticized. Much of her work is biographical rather than scholarly expansion of Somali knowledge. Instead of challenging misinformation, she sometimes reinforces it. Her focus appears to be self-promotion rather than producing critical research for Somalis. For example, her role in allowing biased orientalist Spanish scholars to dominate Somaliland’s archaeology shows a failure to advance local research.

Somalis have historically been self-reliant and protective of their knowledge. Our ancestors documented, preserved, and controlled their intellectual resources without seeking outside validation. We should follow their example researching and documenting for internal benefit, not global recognition.

This doesn’t mean we should ignore external narratives entirely, as they do influence policy and international relations. However, our primary focus should be on strengthening internal knowledge and narratives first. Leading from within should always take precedence.

 

[Midas]

Interesting discussion between @Midas,@Shimbiris, @NidarNidar, @Abdirazaq . I'll add my 2 cents to this, tried to structure it a bit to make it more coherent.

Somalis have always recorded their history. They kept written records of important events, and we still have many surviving chronicles and manuscripts documenting this.

Medieval Sources

Several written sources from the medieval period provide valuable insight into Somali history:

• Tarikh Al Wali Asma (The History of the Supreme Rulers) – Also known as Hikaya fi qissat tarikh Umar Walasma wa-ansabihi wa muddat wilayatihi and Wa Kana Wafat (13th-15th century), documenting the consolidation of the Sultanates.
• Futuh Al-Habasha (Tuhfat al-Zaman in local variation) – Chronicles the wars against Abyssinia.
• Tarikh Al-Mulukh (The History of Kings) & Tarikh Al-Mujahideen (The History of the Holy War) – Document the later stages of conquest and the later years of the Bar Sa’adin Sultanate.
• Awsa Chronicles – Record the Harla-Issa dynasty-led Awsa State (16th-17th century).
• Gadabursi Chronicle – Details Imam Ali Sai’d’s role alongside the Sultan of Awdal and Ugas Malik’s resistance to Oromo invasions (14th-16th century).
• Harar Chronicles – Document the Dawud Dynasty and their successful resistance against the Oromo (16th-18th century).

Even abroad, Somali history was recorded in sources found in Yemen, mentioning the Northern Sultanates. Some texts reference Somali authors like Ibrahim al-Jabarti, proving Somalis actively engaged in recording and sharing history.

For example, one source states: "It was stated in what I have seen of the handwriting of Faqih Ibrahim bin Abi Bakr bin Ibrahim bin Omar bin Ahnbar al-Jabarti al-Wadi."

There's also reference to a manuscript chronicling Darood's arrival from 1413, found in possession of a Warsangeli Abaan. However, colonial interpretations (like Richard Burton's claims about Christian chiefs) should be taken with a grain of salt. Burton, for instance, pushed false theories about Somalis being Arab-mixed immigrants who displaced native "pagan or Christian" inhabitants, claims that lack evidence. No Christian is going to wear the Islamic administrative title “Wazir”
View attachment 357946

The existence of Abdurrahman bin Ismail al-Jabarti is confirmed in Rasulid documents about his father Ismail Jabarti, reinforcing the deep-rooted historical record-keeping among Somalis.

(Note: In medieval Arabic sources, "Al-Habash" did not exclusively mean Abyssinia—it referred to the entire Horn of Africa.)

There is also a manuscripts about Ismail Jabarti genealogy in the Harar collection that Ed Wagnar found authored by a Majerteen scholar Abu Bakr Al Jaberti dated to 1732 (1145 hijriah)
View attachment 357947

Somali Written Traditions

It’s clear that most Somali historical traditions stemmed from textual sources. When European explorers in the 19th century asked Somalis about history, they often had to consult private Arabic texts before answering.

Tradition to Text: Writing Local Somali History in the Travel Narrative of Charles Guillain (1846-48)

Tradition to Text: Writing Local Somali History in the Travel Narrative of Charles Guillain (1846-48) on JSTOR

Lee Cassanelli, Tradition to Text: Writing Local Somali History in the Travel Narrative of Charles Guillain (1846-48), Journal of African Cultural Studies, Vol. 18, No. 1, Language, Power and Society: Orality and Literacy in the Horn of Africa (Jun., 2006), pp. 57-71

www.jstor.org

For example, Charles Guillain's travel narratives show that Somalis referenced written agreements, diplomatic alliances, and foundation dates.

One specific case involved a Darood genealogy collection from a text held by a Qadi in Hafun. Qadis are tasked with legal record keeping btw. Each town had a Qadi.
View attachment 357949
View attachment 357948


Furthermore, we now have evidence of fully written Xeer (customary law) texts dating back to 1814, a full Ajami text (Somali written in Arabic script) that show that even Xeer (customary law) was documented.

A manuscripts of xeer cisse from 1814

It's amazing what you can find my crawling through somali social media. This guy apparently found a somali ajami manuscript of xeer cisse from 1814. That's 211 years ago.

www.somalispot.com

Court documents from Harar (19th century) and Qadi record books from various cities further confirm this.

When Richard Burton visited Zeila, he noted that the local Hawiye Qadi maintained written legal records.

Modern Somali Historiography

Somali scholars in the early-modern and contemporary period continued documenting history in Somali and Arabic, often through newspapers and publishing houses.

Made a thread on this:

A Thread on Somali historians who wrote in Arabic and their works

-The great historian Ahmed Abdallah Rirash: Author of the book ''Uncovering the History of Somalia and Their Seven Kingdoms'' - Dr Ahmed Abdo Mohammed : Author of two books ''Sheikh Rashid Rida: His life and literature'' and ''Al-Tha'alibi and his book ''The Orphan of the Age'' - Sheikh...

www.somalispot.com

This language barrier shielded them from European misinformation and colonial distortions, but it also meant that much of their work was inaccessible to the wider world. When they eventually became aware of these distortions, they lacked the means to challenge them in Western languages.

For example, Said Shidaad, one of the most dedicated Somali historians and one of the few remaining experts in Somali medieval history, writes and publishes primarily in Somali and Arabic. Many of his works are found in Somali newspapers and books. . His publications and lectures document lost Somali histories, yet his work remains largely inaccessible to non-Somali speakers

Likewise, early 2000s Somali-language newspapers featured historians such as Caali Nuuri, who wrote extensively on medieval Somali history in relation to modern political developments. However, their works remain obscure due to language barriers and lack of translation.

For reference:

• SOOMAALIYA: TAARIIKH
• SOMAALIYA: AWFAAT iyo OGAADEENIYA KA BACDI
  (Source: https://www.somaliatalk.com/geedi/geedi24.html)

Researchers like Walaalwhoops on Twitter have collected books by Somali scholars that are nearly impossible to find online. These works show that Somali intellectuals still document contemporary histories, just not in European languages.

As a result instead of these authentic scholars, Western-educated Somali elites have taken over the historical discourse. Many prioritize appeasement of Western academic institutions over correcting misinformation. Their focus on gaining validation rather than preserving historical integrity has done a great disservice to Somali history.

The Colonial Myth of an "Oral Society"

The idea that Somalis were purely an oral society originates from colonialists who were denied access to Somali historical sources. European travelers frequently complained about this, resorting to underhanded tactics and deception to gain even partial access.

The Abaan system (which regulated entry into Somali territories) further frustrated them, leading them to wrongly conclude that Somalia was isolated from the world. This, despite Somalis being deeply engaged in trade and global networks for centuries.

This is why Richard Burton’s book is titled "First Footsteps in East Africa" because previous European explorers failed to enter Somali lands. They sent letters to various sultans, including the Emir of Harar, but were consistently rejected. Burton and Speke only succeeded by disguising themselves as Arab merchants and learning fluent Arabic, they used it enter illegally.

Since they couldn't access real historical records, they relied on gossip and hearsay from uninformed or random locals. This resulted in misinterpretations, hearsay, and outright fabrications in their writings, which later became the foundation of flawed Western/colonial narratives about Somalia that many scholars unknowingly built upon.

What Led to the Loss of Somali Historical Narratives?

Several factors contributed to the gap in publicly available Somali history and the spread of misinformation and pseudo-history:

1. The dominance of European languages – English and other Western languages became the gatekeepers of historical narratives, sidelining Somali and Arabic sources.
2. Colonial distortions and Political agendas – Europeans had political and ideological motives to misrepresent Somali history. Many historical accounts are shaped by political agendas and identity that seek to distort Somalia’s past to conform to contemporary politics. Other times they seek to distort it conform to Ethiopian expanionist narratives.
3. Displacement and dispossession – Many Somali scholars lost institutional backing due to war and instability. Some were forced into exile, while others had to abandon their historical work for survival and had to take up new career paths.
4. Western-educated Somali elites – Many do a disservice to Somali historical scholarship. Instead of correcting distortions, they either push political agendas or seek Western validation, avoiding confrontations with false narratives.

Even Said Shidad has spoken about this in his lectures, specifically during his presentation on the Nugaal ruins.

At the end of the day, Somalis have always written their own history. The challenge now is bridging the language gap and pushing back against misinformation to ensure that Somali historical narratives are properly represented in discourse.

If darod was actually a dude who lived in the 1300s. Then I'm so confused on how all these clans trace back to him. What caused so many of these groups to claim shared lineage.

 

[Idilinaa]

If darod was actually a dude who lived in the 1300s. Then I'm so confused on how all these clans trace back to him. What caused so many of these groups to claim shared lineage.

Probably expansion and incorporation that diverse group clans were incorporated into it. It shows you how fluid Somali clan dynamics are through intermarriage and alliances.

But that local manuscript and the rasulid documents, show 2 things. Somalis already had an organized sultanate in the north-east and they were claiming Aqili lineage before Darood's arrival.

The historical references also shows he was a real person that had deep influence in the local histories, they venerated him as a saint and adopted him as their ancestor and his offsprings inherited different portions of land and great territorial changes happened.

 

[Midas]

If darod was actually a dude who lived in the 1300s. Then I'm so confused on how all these clans trace back to him. What caused so many of these groups to claim shared lineage.

Im speculating here. But maybe the key is the connection with Dir. It's possible that just like how isaaq were said to use to be Dir. What we call the modern darod clans also switched their allegiance and nisba from Dir to this new one based around a religious scholar called darod.

 

[Midas]

Probably expansion and incorporation that diverse group clans were incorporated into it. It shows you how fluid Somali clan dynamics are through intermarriage and alliances.

But that local manuscript and the rasulid documents, show 2 things. Somalis already had an organized sultanate in the north-east and they were claiming Aqili lineage before Darood's arrival.

The historical references also shows he was a real person that had deep influence in the local histories, they venerated him as a saint and adopted him as their ancestor and the his offsprings inherited land and great territorial changes happened.

Finding out how and why this happened woukd completely change our understanding of somali history. It seems like relegion and leadership in somalia has always been fundamentally interconnected. The model of of clans connecting themselves with relegious figures and venerating them as ancestors seems to go back incredibly far in somali history.

 

[Idilinaa]

Finding out how and why this happened woukd completely change our understanding of somali history. It seems like relegion and leadership in somalia has always been fundamentally interconnected. The model of of clans connecting themselves with relegious figures and venerating them as ancestors seems to go back incredibly far in somali history.

You're absolutely right. This connects deeply to the Somali tradition of saintlyhood ('Awliyo') and the broader practice of ancestor veneration, which has historically played a significant role in Somali society.


Saints and revered ancestors were not just religious figures but also symbols of moral authority, leadership, and societal guidance. They were upheld as role models due to their piety, wisdom, and contributions to their communities whether through political leadership, economic achievements, or military victories.


This tradition reflects the strong intertwining of religion, lineage, and governance in Somali history, where spiritual legitimacy often reinforced political and social structures.

 

[Idilinaa]

Abasa and the Fort of Queen Kola was visited by many European travellers, explorers and archaeologists. Amongst them Richard Francis Burton in 1854–1855, Alexander T. Curle in the 1930s, Neville Chittick in 19[/SPOILER]

Not only do they rely on orientalist writers like Burton, who misrepresented local histories, but they also fabricate claims themselves.


The wrongly claimed that the site had "lost its original name"

Alexander T. Curle visited the ruins, which by then had lost the original name, and called them Abasa, describing the site as one of the biggest medieval settlements together with Amud, Gogesa o Au Bare.

This is incorrect. The name Abasa was already recorded in the 1600s by a Portuguese missionary who mentioned:

"I might perhaps be to called from Abaxa, the Capital City of the Kingdom of Adel."

Similarly, the town of Sheikh is referenced in medieval Arabic sources, proving that neither of these are newly applied Somali names. The ruins of Doggor (or Dakar) in northwest Somaliland retain their original name, as confirmed by Tarikh Al-Mujahid.


These examples highlight a broader pattern where Somali historical narratives are distorted. Claims of lost names are unfounded on the contrary, the continuity of these names proves Somalis have kept track of their history.

 

[Shimbiris]

Im speculating here. But maybe the key is the connection with Dir. It's possible that just like how isaaq were said to use to be Dir. What we call the modern darod clans also switched their allegiance and nisba from Dir to this new one based around a religious scholar called darod.

I'm reminded of an old saying my grandmother used to impart to me about the peopling of the north, "Dadka waa Dir iyo Darood" (The People are Dir and Darood). Even as a kid I found that strange because there's a huge other tribe right in the middle of the two that isn't mentioned in this saying.

Then it began to maybe add up with all the myths around reer Isaaq being a Dir off-shoot and began to be even more trippy when it looked like Isaaqs are a little split down the middle be E-Z813 and T-L208 whereas Hartis look mostly E-Z813. Makes me suspect the deepest real historical "schism" in the north was between the local Z813 Cushites (Hartis and 1/2 Isaaq paternal line) and the South Arabian T-L208 pastoralists (Dir and 1/2 Isaaq paternal line) who maybe brought camel pastoralism and were assimilated over-time and that's what the saying is referring to.

 

[Midas]

I'm reminded of an old saying my grandmother used to impart to me about the peopling of the north, "Dadka waa Dir iyo Darood" (The People are Dir and Darood). Even as a kid I found that strange because there's a huge other tribe right in the middle of the two that isn't mentioned in this saying.

Then it began to maybe add up with all the myths around reer Isaaq being a Dir off-shoot and began to be even more trippy when it looked like Isaaqs are a little split down the middle be E-Z813 and T-L208 whereas Hartis look mostly E-Z813. Makes me suspect the deepest real historical "schism" in the north was between the local Z813 Cushites (Hartis and 1/2 Isaaq paternal line) and the South Arabian T-L208 pastoralists (Dir and 1/2 Isaaq paternal line) who maybe brought camel pastoralism and were assimilated over-time and that's what the saying is referring to.

Wow that would be insane if we're the case talk about deep historical memory.

Although I wonder if these south Arabian pastoralists who migrated over here might have been some remnanat cushitic group that was living in Arabia? Or else considering how recent the t-l208 pastoralists migrated over here wouldn't we see south arabian dna variance. Espciaally considering the t-l208 seems to be heavily concentrated among the dir and isaaq

 

[Midas]

You're absolutely right. This connects deeply to the Somali tradition of saintlyhood ('Awliyo') and the broader practice of ancestor veneration, which has historically played a significant role in Somali society.


Saints and revered ancestors were not just religious figures but also symbols of moral authority, leadership, and societal guidance. They were upheld as role models due to their piety, wisdom, and contributions to their communities whether through political leadership, economic achievements, or military victories.


This tradition reflects the strong intertwining of religion, lineage, and governance in Somali history, where spiritual legitimacy often reinforced political and social structures.

Yeah this model of holy warrior kings also seems to be a dominant theme in somali history. With the sayyid and ahmed gurye just being the most recent examples.

It does also make me wonder about the myth of an evil yibir king. Which seems to be a pan somali story like awarwelo and not some northern local story. Makes me think it represents some conflict between the older pre Islamic relegious leadership and the new Islamic one.

 

[Shimbiris]

Wow that would be insane if we're the case talk about deep historical memory.

Wilder things have been remembered:

Aboriginal Myth Inspired By 37,000-year-old Volcano Could Be The Oldest Story Ever Told

An Aboriginal tale may describe a volcanic eruption that happened 37,000 years ago.

www.forbes.com

You'd be shocked how far some global oral traditions probably go back and are morphing events from far into the past. The Vedas are another elaborate example. They were only written down after around 300 BCE and beyond despite being reconstructed as being composed as early as 1500 BCE given what they describe.

Although I wonder if these south Arabian pastoralists who migrated over here might have been some remnanat cushitic group that was living in Arabia? Or else considering how recent the t-l208 pastoralists migrated over here wouldn't we see south arabian dna variance. Espciaally considering the t-l208 seems to be heavily concentrated among the dir and isaaq

I take it as being akin to the Carab Saalax:

French Afars crying that Somalis nigga wants to unify Djibout and Somalia 😂

That can't be true, according to this map somalis expanded into galbeedka sitti in 1977 but i know of someone born in garbaciise in the 50s. This was probably made by an afar or an afar sympathiser.

www.somalispot.com

I've seen Carab Saalax results and they, as their looks imply, look like standard Somalis with the same old base admixture levels and therefore no true variation from the Somali norm for actual Arabian ancestry yet I wouldn't be shocked that if you ran some models—like the ones I discussed with Garaad Awal—they would suddenly begin showing elevated Arabian scores because they share a few extra individual segments with Arabians that other Somalis don't despite being the same as other Somalis auDNA wise in the big picture sense. They also, if I'm not mistaken, have shown J-P58 subclades tied to Mehris:

J-FGC90335 YTree

www.yfull.com

Essentially what I picture for the T-L208 people. Generations of marrying Somali women until the only thing remaining "Arabian" about them was the Y-DNA and the cultural package they brought which, eventually, just became the new Somali and coastal LE Cushitic cultural package anyway.

It does also make me wonder about the myth of an evil yibir king. Which seems to be a pan somali story like awarwelo and not some northern local story. Makes me think it represents some conflict between the older pre Islamic relegious leadership and the new Islamic one.

Caraweelo, to me, appears a pan-Horn myth. Even deep Highland peoples like the Sidamo or Gedeo have equivalent stories:

She's probably a reference to:

Gudit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Somalis aren't the only Horners with this mythical queen story. Even Sidamics and Southern Ethiosemites have similar myths as do the Beta Israel and Xabashis. We're all probably Chinese whispering this lady's story and we know that she did exist as we have Arab sources mentioning a woman ruling Abyssinia for a time around the period Aksum was collapsing, if I recall correctly.

Sidamo story:

Queen Fura

www.ethiopianfolktales.com

Furra - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Idilinaa]

Yeah this model of holy warrior kings also seems to be a dominant theme in somali history. With the sayyid and ahmed gurye just being the most recent examples.

It does also make me wonder about the myth of an evil yibir king. Which seems to be a pan somali story like awarwelo and not some northern local story. Makes me think it represents some conflict between the older pre Islamic relegious leadership and the new Islamic one.

The portuguese mention this "Holy Warrior" aspect in the 1500s btw in reference to the Sultans and the Emir's

"Of the Kingdom of Adel and how the King is esteemed as a saint amongst the Moors"

''Among the Moors(Muslims) they hold this King of Adel for a saint, because he always makes war upon the Christians"

We also know from Arabic documentation that the name Awdal loosely translates to Country/Homeland of Saints. Some have taken it mean Homeland of Sheikhs or Scholars depending on how you translate the title "Aw"

Aw (Saint) + Dal (Country) = Country of Saints.

Just to show how deeply embedded this tradition is in local histories.

 

[NidarNidar]

I'm reminded of an old saying my grandmother used to impart to me about the peopling of the north, "Dadka waa Dir iyo Darood" (The People are Dir and Darood). Even as a kid I found that strange because there's a huge other tribe right in the middle of the two that isn't mentioned in this saying.

Then it began to maybe add up with all the myths around reer Isaaq being a Dir off-shoot and began to be even more trippy when it looked like Isaaqs are a little split down the middle be E-Z813 and T-L208 whereas Hartis look mostly E-Z813. Makes me suspect the deepest real historical "schism" in the north was between the local Z813 Cushites (Hartis and 1/2 Isaaq paternal line) and the South Arabian T-L208 pastoralists (Dir and 1/2 Isaaq paternal line) who maybe brought camel pastoralism and were assimilated over-time and that's what the saying is referring to.

I have quite a few Madhiban friends, and he told me they call Somalis in the north Aji, from my understanding, Aji had two sons, Dir and Digale, the latter had a daughter called Dombira who married Abdirahman bin Isma'il al-Jabarti around 10/11th centuries, he was a Somali who got educated across the red sea and returned, both Darod and Dir claim Aqil ibn Abi Talib, Walashma dynasty also claims this.

Another title that appeared after the fall of Adal was Ughaz, "ul" and "gaas," meaning "the stick of the warrior’s chief, shared amongst Dir(Gadabuursi, Isse), Darood(Ogaden), and Hawiye(Hawadle). This title seems to be connected to after the collapse of Adal and is usually carried by those who had a connection to Harar or inhabited the Sr around the 16th century.

This makes sense since tmcra of Dir Aji Irir is around 1000-800 years, linking T Isaaq, Gadabuursi and Cisse to one common ancestor, who split off from Surre around 1,600 ybp around Sanaag; some branches remained around the area.

There are many oral stories of Dir fighting Gallo(basically Somalis who didn't accept Islam) in northern Somalia and into the SR. Historically we have always inhabited the north, several historical towns across the region are named after Dir Saints, Awdal during the Adal sultanate were thriving, they found about fourteen sites in the vicinity of Borama alone be it the collapse of trade or raids those towns fell and never got revived.

 

[Shimbiris]

I have quite a few Madhiban friends, and he told me they call Somalis in the north Aji, from my understanding, Aji had two sons, Dir and Digale, the latter had a daughter called Dombira who married Abdirahman bin Isma'il al-Jabarti around 10/11th centuries, he was a Somali who got educated across the red sea and returned, both Darod and Dir claim Aqil ibn Abi Talib, Walashma dynasty also claims this.

Another title that appeared after the fall of Adal was Ughaz, "ul" and "gaas," meaning "the stick of the warrior’s chief, shared amongst Dir(Gadabuursi, Isse), Darood(Ogaden), and Hawiye(Hawadle). This title seems to be connected to after the collapse of Adal and is usually carried by those who had a connection to Harar or inhabited the Sr around the 16th century.

This makes sense since tmcra of Dir Aji Irir is around 1000-800 years, linking T Isaaq, Gadabuursi and Cisse to one common ancestor, who split off from Surre around 1,600 ybp around Sanaag; some branches remained around the area.

There are many oral stories of Dir fighting Gallo(basically Somalis who didn't accept Islam) in northern Somalia and into the SR. Historically we have always inhabited the north, several historical towns across the region are named after Dir Saints, Awdal during the Adal sultanate were thriving, they found about fourteen sites in the vicinity of Borama alone be it the collapse of trade or raids those towns fell and never got revived.

Wallahi, I think it's way too coincidental that Daroods and Dirs are so sharply contrasted in Y-DNA for our ancestors to not have been low-key aware of that possible ancient schism where Z813 marks the local Somaloid Cushites and T-L208 marks Semitic speaking migrants from Iron-Age Yemen. I wouldn't be shocked if Shaykh Darood was always just a Somali and actually a son of Digale they reframed or something like that and the mythology around Dir and Digale is basically recounting the deepest paternal line schism within the north marked by T-L208 and E-Z813?

 

[NidarNidar]

Wallahi, I think it's way too coincidental that Daroods and Dirs are so sharply contrasted in Y-DNA for our ancestors to not have been low-key aware of that possible ancient schism where Z813 marks the local Somaloid Cushites and T-L208 marks Semitic speaking migrants from Iron-Age Yemen. I wouldn't be shocked if Shaykh Darood was always just a Somali and actually a son of Digale they reframed or something like that and the mythology around Dir and Digale is basically recounting the deepest paternal line schism within the north marked by T-L208 and E-Z813?

Ali Seid, the founder of the Gadabuursi, is buried in Maydh, Sanaag, the same location where Sheikh Isaaq and several other Somali clan leaders are buried. The mountains near Maydh are well known for their frankincense. I believe the Harti people mentioned in the Futuh Al-Habasha as being from Mait were from this town.

The modern Somali identity appears to have taken shape in Northern Somalia and the Somali Region (SR), possibly as early as the 1st century BCE, becoming more defined by the 4th century AD and evolving further by the 10th–11th centuries AD as Islam fully took affect across all of Somali Wayne. The next five years will be fascinating, as DNA testing continues to gain popularity. We have established E-V32 among the Dir, T among the Darood and Hawiye, I wonder when we’ll see our first J lineage among the Dir and uncover the hidden southern Cushitic lineages within the Digil & Mirifle. This could provide valuable insight into historical migrations.