A Happy Coming-Out-Story for A Somali Ex-Muslim

[The_Cosmos]

ur reaching with this analogy. religion is a way of life and not a flippant opinion on a particular race. ur not being disowned for who u are, but for rejecting the very deity the parent worships and their way of life
of course, this is assuming that atheism is the mere disbelief in god/religion and not anything more than that as u maintain .

unless of course ur implying that atheism is as central to a person's identity as their race

Call religion what you like, it's still nothing more than an ideology and if an ideology forces a parent to kick out their child, then expect that ideology to be criticised and the parent dubbed 'a bad parent'. You talk about how "you cannot you cannot have your cake and eat it too" but then expect a parent to be relinquished of all possible bigotry or intolerance. Religion does not supersede the act of loving your child unconditionally. Every action has a reaction.

 

[Tramo]

I guess it's more the aspect of 'no longer being Muslim' rather than 'being Atheist/whatever else' which is at play in most exmuslims lives really. When your belief system is massively changed, you do change as a person, feeling pressured to not simply express that change smacks of subjugation. It might seem trivial, but when you're having a nice conversation with someone you've known your whole life, not just family but friends well, and the thought pops into your head saying 'Would this person even be speaking to me if they knew I wasn't Muslim anymore?', it does eventually weigh down on you, you do feel genuine misery. And it's not just happening once, it's happening all the time. Imagine if you became Muslim and you had a friend that you were hiding it from because you knew they really don't like it when people become Muslim, how would you feel around them? Yeah you can fake it, that's an option, you might want the person in your life, but how would it feel every time you saw them? I get what you're saying about religious identity vs atheist identity, but at its core it is the same. Not just for atheists but for those who convert to other religions as well. When you know expressing your authentic beliefs about the world you live in might cause you to become a social pariah, and being constantly aware of that, it is draining, many people will naturally take the option of not putting yourself through that. Being honest about your beliefs is the first option for everyone. And it's the option everyone would take if the environment was more accommodating. On the outside, they may look the same, but these are not the issues that non-practising Muslims face. Sorry for the longwinded paragraph but I think that probably answers your other question about why I found it uncomfortable. Also, I come from a family where we are open with each other, so the whole secrecy thing, which you fall into instinctively, was a massive culture shock.

i appreciate it

i just get a bit annoyed when some ppl on here say that their atheism isnt a belief, but an unbelief and nothing more, in other discussions involving religion. while technically true, it's obviously not being completely honest

 

[Tramo]

Call religion what you like, it's still nothing more than an ideology and if an ideology forces a parent to kick out their child, then expect that ideology to be criticised and the parent dubbed 'a bad parent'. You talk about how "you cannot you cannot have your cake and eat it too" but then expect a parent to be relinquished of all possible bigotry or intolerance. Religion does not supersede the act of loving your child unconditionally. Every action has a reaction.

it's not bigotry. atheism isn't who you are as a person...it's an opinion, which is subject to change at any moment

if i'm not fucking with ur opinion and i feel that it's an affront to everything i stand for, disowning u doesnt make me a bigot. if as my son u insult my mother calling her everything under the sun, would disowning u make me a bigot? f*ck outta here with this guilt tripping calaacal

 

[Dhabaal]

@Dhabaal acting like he wouldn't be thrown of the nearest bridge, like the rest of us, by some fundementalist

"I'm not like a regular gaal I'm a cool gaal"

Now that is just assumptions which you are projecting. Not every Muslim is a religious fundamentalist!

Just like not every Atheist is a secular fundamentalist trying to kill and exterminate religious people and consider them backward, immoral, etc.


No wonder how some of you are Atheists who worship ajanabi culture , and always lean on extreme views whether be it secular or religious due to your upbringing . Thats not a issue with religion or islam, that's a Family issue and media propaganda.

But i don't see how mere a ''Disbelief in God'' is worth alienating you from your fundamentalist family.

 

[Mercury]

Call religion what you like, it's still nothing more than an ideology and if an ideology forces a parent to kick out their child, then expect that ideology to be criticised and the parent dubbed 'a bad parent'. You talk about how "you cannot you cannot have your cake and eat it too" but then expect a parent to be relinquished of all possible bigotry or intolerance. Religion does not supersede the act of loving your child unconditionally. Every action has a reaction.

I dont Think they disown Children but if their kid is an Adult than its over

 

[The_Cosmos]

Humanism is just means you don't have to believe in God to have morality and adhere to ethical values. It's not a religious or cultural doctrine, you can be humanist and extract morals values from a set culture. Just don't believe these virtues comes from God, that's all.

I didn't commit any fallacies, i have been consistently discussing the topic that was raised by @Tramo , Which is Atheism is not an ideology religion or culture. It's not something central to someones identity nor does it prevent you from being culturally Somali for instance.

You came in here quoting my post about it, talking politics and stuff irrelevant to topic like ''Muslims are doing this or doing that''. Or something about discrimination in Italy. What does that have to do with what we are talking about?

Thats like me hijacking/interrupting a convo about Football and start talking about Basketball and making Basketball arguments against Football.

Totally unrelated.

So it is Straw man fallacies you are committing by acting like you are refuting my argument by replacing it with a different proposition and obfuscating it dragging stuff unrelated to it.


Saying God or Allah does not exist is Logical positivism. Which is highly paradoxical.

Falsifiability is a basic principle of the scientific method. Not verification, Thus saying you have no evidence is ultimately meaningless because you cannot falsify it nor can you prove that claim , is not a scientific question.

So the existence of a God is relegated to a ''Personal truth'' and if you wish to debate it , it is with the use of metaphysics.

Let's put the argument of culture to bed. It's highly meaningless to have a discussion that will only tire both respondents. Let us agree to disagree.

As for the God. I never claimed God doesn't exist, I said that he mostly likely doesn't exist.

 

[The_Cosmos]

it's not bigotry. atheism isn't who you are as a person...it's an opinion, which is subject to change at any moment

if i'm not fucking with ur opinion and i feel that it's an affront to everything i stand for, disowning u doesnt make me a bigot. if as my son u insult my mother calling her everything under the sun, would disowning u make me a bigot? f*ck outta here with this guilt tripping calaacal

That is one hell of a dubious analogy. Are you equating a mere disbelief with insulting your mum?

Some crazy comparison

 

[The_Cosmos]

I dont Think they disown Children but if their kid is an Adult than its over

There are stories of underage children being disowned.

 

[Mercury]

There are stories of underage children being disowned.

ok thats extreme I Think they should wait til they reach a mature age ask em what lead to their disbeliefs kick the atheist Child outta the house and he/she is not allowed to Contact anyone else in the family except the dad

 

[Tramo]

That is one hell of a dubious analogy. Are you equating a mere disbelief with insulting your mum?

Some crazy comparison

mere disbelief™

i dont think ur in a position to criticize dubious analogies considering u just equated atheism to race

and yes i'm comparing them, and if u were more discerning you'd see why. they're both opinions ie: "ayeeyo is lying c*nt", "your god is not real", that are offensive. what's so hard to understand?

if i disown my son for even something as trivial as listening to Nickelback, i might be ridiculously harsh, but i'm not a bigot. either atheism is a central part of ur identity a la race, sexuality, religion, gender or it's not and it's 'mere unbelief'. pick one

 

[Dhabaal]

The bottom line is, once you disbelieve, the religion and it's tenets lose their divine ordainment, which is what drives the religious to tedious, ritualistic practice in the first place, belief in the divine. You can choose to follow the tenets of a religion without belief, but u don't have to, and thus you likely will not, and I personally cannot fathom why.

Yup like i said you just don't believe in the spiritual aspect of it, because it does not prevent your from extracting morals, values from it and practicing the rituals and traditions.

Well yes you do have a choice as an independent thinking human, just saying rejecting your culture in totality is almost akin to rejecting heritage , (i.e Somali identity).

Because an identity does not live outside the culture that cradles it. Culture is what characterizes a community, no community exists without it.

Culturally, I'm Somali. Are there parts of that culture that defer to religion? Yes. Do I follow those parts? No. While we're at it, there are cultural practices I and many of us in the West don't follow either! And so?

You're being facetious and reject fluidity even as you attempt to argue for it.

What do you mean by rejecting fluidity? I am not here to judge whether you are Culturally Somali or not frankly i have no interest in it. Nor am i saying everything in Somali culture is good or to be agreed upon nor am i saying it static, except for its principle values. Culture evolves and cultivates.

Islam is far more flexible than both Fundamentalist and Western Orientalist like to believe. Outside of the basic Tenants a whole world of cultures have been imposed on Islam and pass-off as part and parcel of the faith. Some is political, other cultural and lastly some is driven by Gender 'Ego's'.

Many things associated with Islam are only non-religious cultural elements, some are non-harmful such as the accepted symbol of Islam (crescent moon and star). This is not part of the Islamic faith and therefore is not a necessity. The notion to call everyone Muhammad and wear Arabic names, is not part of Islam. Wearing specific cultural clothes such as a certain type of scarf is not part of Islam.

 

[Dhabaal]

Horte i don't understand what these atheists hope to gain by trying to re-divide up the Somali community by being Anti-Islamic.

It would be more sincere to unite the Somali people around a common moral core. Such as the one provided by Islam.

 

[McLovin]

mere disbelief™

i dont think ur in a position to criticize dubious analogies considering u just equated atheism to race

and yes i'm comparing them, and if u were more discerning you'd see why. they're both opinions ie: "ayeeyo is lying c*nt", "your god is not real", that are offensive. what's so hard to understand?

if i disown my son for even something as trivial as listening to Nickelback, i might be ridiculously harsh, but i'm not a bigot. either atheism is a central part of ur identity a la race, sexuality, religion, gender or it's not and it's 'mere unbelief'. pick one

 

[Dhabaal]

As for the God. I never claimed God doesn't exist, I said that he mostly likely doesn't exist.

You are free to believe that if you want. It is just not a ''Universal Truth''. but rather a ''Personal'' one.

You can't just shove your personal truth at people . Because the question of God is unfalsifiable.

Because metaphysical questions such as "Who am I?", "Are properties accidental or essential?", "How does mind relate to matter?", "Do universals exist?", "How can we justify using induction itself?", "Is there an objective moral normativity?", "Do numbers and ideas have an independent existence?", "What distinguishes alive and dead matter?", "What does it mean to know?", and whatever... are not falsifiable and therefore not entirely in the domain of empirical science.

For example i know for a fact that the Hard Problem of ''Consciousness' is unfalsifiable.

 

[Tramo]

not my position

 

[McLovin]

A long post complaining about lifestyle and culture.

What i say is true, It has very little to do with disbelief in God which for me is a philosophical issue , not an ideological one nor is it a theological. Not even scientific as some of try to make it.

Strictly metaphysical thing, it has no identity built innit.

You guys speak as if the mere act of disbelieving has culture,ethics , lifestyle and ideology behind it. You suddenly convert out of a lifestyle & culture and become a nihilistic European cuck in your attitude , manners & thinking? Just because you doubt the existence of God?.

Who is this undercover muslim to tell us what is the right pathway to disprove god. Philosophical issue kulahaa. All you need is two brain cells to rub together to find out there is no sky daddy who watches you masturbate and gets super salty when you pray to other gods.

Geeljire stahp :siilaanyolaugh:

 

[The_Cosmos]

You are free to believe that if you want. It is just not a ''Universal Truth''. but rather a ''Personal'' one.

You can't just shove your personal truth at people . Because the question of God is unfalsifiable.

Because metaphysical questions such as "Who am I?", "Are properties accidental or essential?", "How does mind relate to matter?", "Do universals exist?", "How can we justify using induction itself?", "Is there an objective moral normativity?", "Do numbers and ideas have an independent existence?", "What distinguishes alive and dead matter?", "What does it mean to know?", and whatever... are not falsifiable and therefore not entirely in the domain of empirical science.

For example i know for a fact that the Hard Problem of ''Consciousness' is unfalsifiable.

Ok, by your logic nobody can assert the non existence of unicorns or leprechauns or even dragons because you cannot falsify such claims. An even better example is the gods of other religions. What about them? You reject 99% of all Gods but I just went one step further and rejected them all without exception.

 

[Dhabaal]

Ok, by your logic nobody can assert the non existence of unicorns or leprechauns or even dragons because you cannot falsify such claims. An even better example is the gods of other religions. What about them? You reject 99% of all Gods but I just went one step further and rejected them all without exception.

That is a fallacy, did you take that out of Dawkin's hand book?

Notice that Dawkins HAS to use "reductio ad adserdum " to make his points.

It's always something absurd like unicorns, fairies, "the flying teapot" or the "flying spaghetti monster" , something any idiot knows doesn't exist. He wouldn't dare use an example like who's going to win the superbowl or the world cup. This would throw a monkey wrench in his whole argument.

What part of ''Personal truth'' don't you understand Gods or existence of a God is a persons ''Personal Truth'' you dont have to believe in every God concept nor can it be falsefied.

 

[McLovin]

Geeljire be like, "The right way to disprove unicorns is through genetic analyzation of all the equine species and plotting the data on a graph"

 

[Dhabaal]

Geeljire be like, "The right way to not believe in unicorns is through genetic analyzation of all the equine species and plotting the data on a graph"

Firstly Sorry i am not Geeljire, but it seems like it is a running gag here. So whatever...

The whole unicorns iyo faries is a "reductio ad adserdum " Leaning on something absurd ''Unicorns'' to make a case builds for a weak argument

Why not ask yourself who is going to win the superbowl or the world cup? Or other metaphysical questions like does ''Conciousness'' exist? or ''How do you distinguish dead matter from living matter''?.

It is always the most militant Atheists that get their arguments from Dawkin's.

Dawkin's on a percentage scale he says he's only 85% atheist and 15% agnostic. But he thinks there is AN EQUAL 15% chance of flying tea pots, fairies, unicorns, or that it might literally rain cats and dogs. Now if these people think he really believes that there is the SLIGHTEST chance of it raining cats and dogs, then I question the intellect of the people he's addressing.