Af-Jiido: My first time hearing this Eastern Cushitic Language in Somalia with 100k Speakers.

[CanoGeel]

Yes, that is my theory and it is backed up by most data.

Somalis are 88-92% Northeast Sudanese from 3,000 BCE and the remainder is extinct types of various local Somali peninsula hunter-gatherers. Those hunter-gatherers split from Ethiopian ones between 20,000-15,000 years ago and were genetically distinct from them. They no longer exist today.

And that's the verdict.

 

[Grant]

First of all, the name Cushitic and the Kingdom of Kush have little to do with it each other. It was just some random name that was picked by early linguists. The Cushitic language family is much older than any Nubian civilization.

Secondly, there is no archeological nor genetic evidence of Cushites passing through Southern Sudan whatsoever. In fact, native populations in Southern Sudan are less Eurasian than even Nigerians and have less Neanderthal affinity than them. They were extremely separated from Cushites.

The consensus among geneticists is that Cushites passed through Northeastern Sudan, then Eritrea, then Northern Ethiopia. The Lowland East Cushitic branch likely first emerged around the Awash river or around Harar-Hargeisa-Hawd area.

The genetics of East African populations: a Nilo-Saharan component in the African genetic landscape - Scientific Reports

East Africa is a strategic region to study human genetic diversity due to the presence of ethnically, linguistically and geographically diverse populations. Here, we provide new insight into the genetic history of populations living in the Sudanese region of East Africa by analysing nine ethnic...

www.nature.com

"Nubians are the only Nilo-Saharan speaking group that does not cluster with groups of the same linguistic affiliation, but with Sudanese Afro-Asiatic speaking groups (Arabs and Cushitic Beja) and Afro-Asiatic Ethiopians.
Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA studies reported Nubians to be more similar to Egyptians and Ethiopians than to other Nilo-Saharan populations.
The genetics of East African populations: a Nilo-Saharan component in the African genetic landscape

"A random subset of 18 individuals from each population was selected to avoid sample size bias. Columns represent individuals, where the size of each colour segment represents the proportion of ancestry from each cluster. Although k = 3 is the statistically supported model, here we show the results from k = 2 through k = 5 as they explain several ancestral components: North African/Middle Eastern (dark blue), Sub-Saharan (light blue), Coptic/Cushitic (dark green), Nilo-Saharan (light green) and Fulani (pink). MKK = Maasai from Kinyawa, Kenya; LWK = Luhya from Webuye, Kenya; YRI = Yoruba from Ibadan, Nigeria."

See the named authors for credentials:

"A number of extinct populations are thought to have spoken Afro-Asiatic languages of the Cushitic branch. According to Peter Behrens (1981) and Marianne Bechaus-Gerst (2000), linguistic evidence indicates that the peoples of the Kerma Culture in present-day southern Egypt and northern Sudan spoke Cushitic languages.

The Nilo-Saharan Nobiin language today contains a number of key pastoralism related loanwords that are of proto-Highland East Cushitic origin, including the terms for sheep/goatskin, hen/cock, livestock enclosure, butter and milk. This in turn suggests that the Kerma population — which, along with the C-Group culture, inhabited the Nile Valley immediately before the arrival of the first Nubian speakers — spoke Afro-Asiatic languages."

--------------------------------

In his 2011 book History and the testimony of language Ehret shows a map of Cushitic migration from the Red Sea Hills across Eritrea, etc into northern Somalia and the headwaters of the Jubba at 4-6000 BCE. This is most likely to have been the Southern and Highland Eastern Cushites as early northern inhabitants like the Dir, Harla, Yibir, the J1s, etc, are not Cushitic. In his Invention of Somalia maps he shows the Ahmar-Dharoor in the North in the 8th century and the Maxay speakers there only in the 14th century. Another of his maps in the Testimony of Language shows a very significant Highland Eastern Cushitic population just west of both the Jubba and Shebelle watersheds and covering the extreme southern Awash for the period 500 BC-100 AD

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Either the Lowland Eastern Cushites descend from Highland Eastern Cushites or we need to find another migration.

 

[Apollo]

@Grant

There is no need for one group to descend from another. A split can easily also suggest separate paths.

HE-C and LE-C likely split in Eritrea. Anyhow that is so long ago that it is not relevant.

 

[Grant]

@Grant

There is no need for one group to descend from another. A split can easily also suggest separate paths.

HE-C and LE-C likely split in Eritrea. Anyhow that is so long ago that it is not relevant.

Click the attachment at the bottom to see the full X'd out item I couldn't get to post. Your Nubian info is very wrong. They cluster with the Beja, Sudanese Arabs, Egyptians and Afro-Asiatic Ethiopians!

Not relevant???? Separate paths, as in different migration route or period? Likely, maybe? Sources?

 

[Apollo]

Click the attachment at the bottom to see the full X'd out item I couldn't get to post. Your Nubian info is very wrong. They cluster with the Beja, Sudanese Arabs, Egyptians and Afro-Asiatic Ethiopians!

Not relevant???? Separate paths, as in different migration route or period? Likely, maybe? Sources?

Celtic and Italic form a branch within IE, this doesn't mean Celtic is from the Italian peninsula. Their common source is from Central Europe.

Same logic applies to Highland East Cushitic vs Lowland East Cushitic. Their common source is Eritrea.

 

[Grant]

Celtic and Italic form a branch within IE, this doesn't mean Celtic is from the Italian peninsula. Their common source is from Central Europe.

Same logic applies to Highland East Cushitic vs Lowland East Cushitic. Their common source is Eritrea.

You are repeating that. How come you can't click a simple attachment or respond to my questions?

Get used to the idea that the Nubians are the Kushites and you need a source to say the SC AND HEC split in Eritrea.

 

[Apollo]

You are repeating that. How come you can't click a simple attachment or respond to my questions?

Get used to the idea that the Nubians are the Kushites and you need a source to say the SC AND HEC split in Eritrea.

I already read those studies.

I don't get why you are bringing up Nubians. This is a population that was created thousands of years post proto-Cushites. The group Cushitic is thousands of years older than the Kush Kingdom or Nubians.

Beja vs all other Cushites is the first split in Cushitic, then Agaw vs all the remainder. This firmly places the ethnogenesis of Cushites in the area between Northeastern Sudan and Eritrea.

 

[Grant]

I already read those studies.

I don't get why you are bringing up Nubians. This is a population that was created thousands of years post proto-Cushites. The group Cushitic is thousands of years older than the Kush Kingdom or Nubians.

Beja vs all other Cushites is the first split in Cushitic, then Agaw vs all the remainder. This firmly places the ethnogenesis of Cushites in the area between Northeastern Sudan and Eritrea.

If you read all that, why won't you acknowledge the Kushites?
I agree with the Cushitic origin, but that does not get the Maay and Maxaa speaking somalis into Somalia. A very large percentage of Sudanese Cushites were pushed south with the Kushitic state. They cluster with the Agaw and Oromo. Why can't you accept them as a possible source of proto Somalis? If they continued their migration up the Nile tributeries they would have landed a hop, skip and a jump from the headwaters of the Dawa, the Genale or the Shabelle. The route White Nile to Sabat and then Baro river avoids both the Sudd and the Omotics.

 

[Apollo]

If you read all that, why won't you acknowledge the Kushites?
I agree with the Cushitic origin, but that does not get the Maay and Maxaa speaking somalis into Somalia. A very large percentage of Sudanese Cushites were pushed south with the Kushitic state. They cluster with the Agaw and Oromo. Why can't you accept them as a possible source of proto Somalis? If they continued their migration up the Nile tributeries they would have landed a hop, skip and a jump from the headwaters of the Dawa, the Genale or the Shabelle. The route White Nile to Sabat and then Baro river avoids both the Sudd and the Omotics.

It is really a fringe idea that makes no sense. Any Cushites that migrated Southerwards into Central North Sudan were not HE-C/L-EC related but were connected to the Beja or Cushitic ancestors of Nubians (Beja related), not Horn Cushitic.

As I said before the common grouping for HE-C and LE-C places it somewhere in Eritrea/Northern Ethiopia due to Agaws being the earlier split. HE-C goes southwards into the Central/Southern Ethiopian highlands. LE-C follows the Danakil, Awash river, or Hawd region. This is the only logical path.

 

[Grant]

It is really a fringe idea that makes no sense. Any Cushites that migrated Southerwards into Central North Sudan were not HE-C/L-EC related but were connected to the Beja or Cushitic ancestors of Nubians (Beja related), not Horn Cushitic.

As I said before the common grouping for HE-C and LE-C places it somewhere in Eritrea/Northern Ethiopia due to Agaws being the earlier split. HE-C goes southwards into the Central/Southern Ethiopian highlands. LE-C follows the Danakil, Awash river, or Hawd region. This is the only logical path.

I have shown you why I disagree.

The genetics of East African populations: a Nilo-Saharan component in the African genetic landscape - Scientific Reports

East Africa is a strategic region to study human genetic diversity due to the presence of ethnically, linguistically and geographically diverse populations. Here, we provide new insight into the genetic history of populations living in the Sudanese region of East Africa by analysing nine ethnic...

www.nature.com

ADMIXTURE results for the 14 populations.

A random subset of 18 individuals from each population was selected to avoid sample size bias. Columns represent individuals, where the size of each colour segment represents the proportion of ancestry from each cluster. Although k = 3 is the statistically supported model, here we show the results from k = 2 through k = 5 as they explain several ancestral components: North African/Middle Eastern (dark blue), Sub-Saharan (light blue), Coptic (dark green), Nilo-Saharan (light green) and Fulani (pink). MKK = Maasai from Kinyawa, Kenya; LWK = Luhya from Webuye, Kenya; YRI = Yoruba from Ibadan, Nigeria.

 

[CanoGeel]

I have never heard of it but it sounds Somali and oromo. I’m trying to understand it but can’t lol. But sounds like I should . Where do they reside? Thanks for sharing.

They are the majority in these three districts of Lower shabelle Region. Qoryoley, Sablaale and Kunturwaarey.

.

 

[The alchemist]

Humans have been around for around 200 hundered thousand years. How come all of human languages split around 60 thousand years ago?

I do not believe there is scholarship or literature that points to a language diversion 60 thousand years ago. That is impossible to claim from the age of extant and documented dead languages and limited methodology.

The comparative method is only useful up to 10 thousand years back in time, and that’s where meaningful information falls short to help with reconstruction. The Afro Asiatic language family is older than the comparative method – it is older than the advent of the agricultural revolution, placing the age of proto-Afro Asiatic at 15 -13kya BP.

 

[The alchemist]

That TEDx Talks speaker misinterpreted or dishonestly misrepresented Chomsky's view on the matter completely (read 'Why Only Us: Language and Evolution' or watch a seminar about the topic on YouTube, plenty of material from Chomsky that speak of the matter on several clips as well).

 

[Apollo]

I have shown you why I disagree.

The genetics of East African populations: a Nilo-Saharan component in the African genetic landscape - Scientific Reports

East Africa is a strategic region to study human genetic diversity due to the presence of ethnically, linguistically and geographically diverse populations. Here, we provide new insight into the genetic history of populations living in the Sudanese region of East Africa by analysing nine ethnic...

www.nature.com

View attachment 209395
ADMIXTURE results for the 14 populations.

A random subset of 18 individuals from each population was selected to avoid sample size bias. Columns represent individuals, where the size of each colour segment represents the proportion of ancestry from each cluster. Although k = 3 is the statistically supported model, here we show the results from k = 2 through k = 5 as they explain several ancestral components: North African/Middle Eastern (dark blue), Sub-Saharan (light blue), Coptic (dark green), Nilo-Saharan (light green) and Fulani (pink). MKK = Maasai from Kinyawa, Kenya; LWK = Luhya from Webuye, Kenya; YRI = Yoruba from Ibadan, Nigeria.

Have I ever claimed that Nubians are not similar to HOA populations?

Bringing up that chart makes zero sense to our argument whether LE-C took the Awash or the Southern Ethiopia route.

PS. Nubians mostly live at the far northern end of North Sudan near the Egyptian border. They don't live in Central/Southern North Sudan. Populations on the North Sudan-South Sudan like Nubas and Kordofanians get significantly more similar to the South Sudanese.

 

[Grant]

Have I ever claimed that Nubians are not similar to HOA populations?

Bringing up that chart makes zero sense to our argument whether LE-C took the Awash or the Southern Ethiopia route.

PS. Nubians mostly live at the far northern end of North Sudan near the Egyptian border. They don't live in Central/Southern North Sudan. Populations on the North Sudan-South Sudan like Nubas and Kordofanians get significantly more similar to the South Sudanese.

Take another look at that genetics chart, and then this:

" Any Cushites that migrated Southerwards into Central North Sudan were not HE-C/L-EC related but were connected to the Beja or Cushitic ancestors of Nubians (Beja related), not Horn Cushitic."

"First of all, the name Cushitic and the Kingdom of Kush have little to do with it each other. It was just some random name that was picked by early linguists."

"Secondly, there is no archeological nor genetic evidence of Cushites passing through Southern Sudan whatsoever. In fact, native populations in Southern Sudan are less Eurasian than even Nigerians and have less Neanderthal affinity than them. They were extremely separated from Cushites"

"Bringing up that chart makes zero sense to our argument whether LE-C took the Awash or the Southern Ethiopia route."

 

[Apollo]

Take another look at that genetics chart, and then this:

Nubians are not Cushitic speakers neither are they representative of the early Cushites. They carry substantial admixture from both Egyptians (dynastic variety)* and Nilotic* ancestry that arrived more recently into North Sudan.

*The early Cushites only carried Neolithic-era Egyptian ancestry, a variety that was much older and more similar to Natufians & Iberomaurusians and less similar to the Anatolian and Iranian Neolithic groups.

*The Nilotic ancestry of Nubians isn't the same as those in Horners. Again the Nilotic ancestry of Horn Cushites is much older and has less of a West African affinity. Nubians carry mtDNA lineage L3e5, which is never found in Horn Cushites.

You really think I am making up these theories out of my ass don't you? I have looked into all of this and there is zero chance LE-C went through Southern Sudan or Southern Ethiopia at the early stages of this group. The Awash-Hawd area is the only logical point.

 

[Grant]

Nubians are not Cushitic speakers neither are they representative of the early Cushites. They carry substantial admixture from both Egyptians (dynastic variety)* and Nilotic* ancestry that arrived more recently into North Sudan.

*The early Cushites only carried Neolithic-era Egyptian ancestry, a variety that was much older and more similar to Natufians & Iberomaurusians and less similar to the Anatolian and Iranian Neolithic groups.

*The Nilotic ancestry of Nubians isn't the same as those in Horners. Again the Nilotic ancestry of Horn Cushites is much older and has less of a West African affinity. Nubians carry mtDNA lineage L3e5, which is never found in Horn Cushites.

You really think I am making up these theories out of my ass don't you? I have looked into all of this and there is zero chance LE-C went through Southern Sudan or Southern Ethiopia at the early stages of this group. The Awash-Hawd area is the only logical point.

I just re-read The Origin of the Galla and Somali by Herbert Lewis. I strongly suggest you do the same.

The Origins of the Galla and Somali on JSTOR

Herbert S. Lewis, The Origins of the Galla and Somali, The Journal of African History, Vol. 7, No. 1 (1966), pp. 27-46

www.jstor.org

or
https://www.academia.edu/248346/The_Origins_of_the_Galla_and_Somali {download}

For me, really, the issue is how and why they got to Southern Ethiopia.

You are so busy finding distinguishing features in groups, the origin of some features of which may be quite recent, to keep in mind that when the Cushites originated in northeast Sudan/Eritrea they comprised a single group.

 

[Apollo]

I just re-read The Origin of the Galla and Somali by Herbert Lewis. I strongly suggest you do the same.

The Origins of the Galla and Somali on JSTOR

Herbert S. Lewis, The Origins of the Galla and Somali, The Journal of African History, Vol. 7, No. 1 (1966), pp. 27-46

www.jstor.org

or
https://www.academia.edu/248346/The_Origins_of_the_Galla_and_Somali {download}

For me, really, the issue is how and why they got to Southern Ethiopia.

You are so busy finding distinguishing features in groups, the origin of some features of which may be quite recent, to keep in mind that when the Cushites originated in northeast Sudan/Eritrea they comprised a single group.

I swear you are absolutely a shit debater.

- I have not brought up features anywhere in this entire thread. My argumentation is strictly based on genetics and linguistics.

- There is no genetic nor archaeological evidence that the ancestors of Somalis ever lived in Southern Ethiopia (excluding K5). The only genomic evidence for the Lowland East Cushitic urheimat is in the Afar or Somali territories.

 

[Shimbiris]

Yes, that is my theory and it is backed up by most data.

Somalis are 88-92% Northeast Sudanese from 3,000 BCE and the remainder is extinct types of various local Somali peninsula hunter-gatherers. Those hunter-gatherers split from Ethiopian ones between 20,000-15,000 years ago and were genetically distinct from them. They no longer exist today.

There is some real ancient Yemeni in Somalis. About 5-10% at least. And the Horn HG also seems like 5% or so. So about 80-90% 3000 BCE Cushites, I'd wager.

 

[Apollo]

There is some real ancient Yemeni in Somalis. About 5-10% at least. And the Horn HG also seems like 5% or so. So about 80-90% 3000 BCE Cushites, I'd wager.

Arabians and North Africans are related, so how to precisely measure that stuff I don't really have a strong opinion on.

But I think the Somali type/Eastern Horn HG is much higher (8-12%) than what tests show using Mota as a reference who may not have been close to them. Just look at the stark difference between the Kenya LSA samples and Mota. HGs have much bigger genetic distances than agricultural groups do.

I hear they are going to release 18,000 year old SEA HG genomes soon, which may bolster this theory of mine.