Af-Jiido: My first time hearing this Eastern Cushitic Language in Somalia with 100k Speakers.

[Apollo]

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They don't cluster with Somali whatsoever.

As you can notice with my wording, only the non-admixed version. Maximize the Cushitic portion, and you will have something similar to extant Somalis. I bet they traveled south early and mixed with people rich in Dinka-like ancestry, and variate degrees of East African forager.

All that is missing to solidify my theory are more ancient genomes from the Eastern Horn areas and preferably some HG genomes from the Somaliweyn area.

Then the Southern Highland Ethiopian theory or the Lake Gabra theory has no leg to stand on.

 

[Grant]

White people like you often have this romanticized view of Africans, especially white academics in subjects like anthropology and linguistics which has become heavily politicized and politically correct.

Reading anthropology texts from the 1800s and the early 1900s and those of today you notice a huge difference.

Present-day anthropologists do not like telling peoples from another race that they are invaders from elsewhere and therefore they often come up with bogus ideas that this or that group is native to their current region.

PC geneticists called a component that arrived to India from Iran and Central Asia as ''Ancestral North Indian'' to appease Indian nationalists even though this component did not even originate from Northern India at all.

You have a sly way of avoiding the issues I present.

 

[Apollo]

You have a sly way of avoiding the issues I present.

Agree to disagree, you won't be able to persuade me whatsoever in light of the genomic evidence I have seen.

 

[The alchemist]

All that is missing to solidify my theory are more ancient genomes from the Eastern Horn areas and preferably some HG genomes from the Somaliweyn area.

Then the Southern Highland Ethiopian theory or the Lake Gabra theory has no leg to stand on.

I do not subscribe to the idea that Somali speakers trace their origin around the lakes in southwest Ethiopia. The Ethiopian project showed a clear strong affinity between non-Somali speakers than with Somalis besides the general similarities that came from an earlier period.

 

[Apollo]

I do not subscribe to the idea that Somali speakers trace their origin around the lakes in southwest Ethiopia.

It is so silly and only based on the fact that groups like the El Molo live there and the fact that Oromos spread an early dialect of theirs to a previously Omotic population (the Konso). The Konso have a high frequency of E1b1a2 (E-M329) the quintessential HG Omo lineage and are definitely not ancestrally Lowland East Cushitic.

It completely ignores the possibility of migrations and language shifts* having occurred.

*Konso likely language shifted from an Omotic language and the Daasanach while having Cushitic ancestry are heavily Nyangatom (Nilotic) influenced.

 

[The alchemist]

It is so silly and only based on the fact that groups like the El Molo live there and the fact that Oromos spread an early dialect of theirs to a previously Omotic population (the Konso). The Konso have a high frequency of E1b1a2 (E-M329) the quintessential HG Omo lineage and are definitely not ancestrally Lowland East Cushitic.

It completely ignores the possibility of migrations and language shifts* having occurred.

*Konso likely language shifted from an Omotic language and the Daasanach while having Cushitic ancestry are heavily Nyangatom (Nilotic) influenced.

Population size differences and genetic split time, migration capacity and subsistence type with environmental propellors and migration patterns can't all be assumed to correlate with the size of existence of current distribution data of the groups in question and they are not equally consistent across time and space within a lineage and between different related populations and their relationship to the ecological factors. Even genetic linguistic relation phylogeny is not 1:1 with reality (masks some complexity, but overall extremely useful). I think we need to be humble sometimes and appreciate that things are not always so simple and be computed easily with contrived models.

 

[Grant]

Agree to disagree, you won't be able to persuade me whatsoever in light of the genomic evidence I have seen.

I remember when you espoused Ehret's theory in The Invention of Somalia. You keep bouncing around, depending on what you have read most recently. All the data are not in yet, so I still have hope for you.

https://www.somalispot.com/search/947637/?

• Apollo
• Post #171
• Jan 30, 2019
• Forum: Culture & History

"Maxa Tiris descend from inter-riverine South Somalis who pushed out of the Jubba and Shabelle valley into Northern Somalia after the introduction of the camel."

 

[anonimo]

I have seen Garre and Degodia autosomal genomes. These are clans native to Southwest Somaliweyn and they both have different genetics from other Somalis.

The Degodia got E-M293 which is a proto-South Cushitic lineage never found in North-Central Somalis.

The Garre got E-Y161124 which is an Oromo-linked version of E-V32 never found in North-Central Somalis.

Both of them also got substantially higher Southwest Ethiopian-like affinity than other Somalis and they themselves can be explained as Somalis from Somalia who mixed with South Cushites and Oromos and they cannot be ancestral to North-Central Somalis who have a genomic profile different to them.

The only legit theory is that LE-Cushitic is from the Danakil-Hawd area and spread from there to other regions.

Herr Apollo

Hasn't E-M293 been found among a Northern Warsangeli and a South-Central Somali Gaaljecel?

Isn't there a Dhulbahante on YFull who belongs to an upstream subclade of E-Y161124?

I do not think the above haplogroup and subclade can be used vehemently to argue that they reflect South Cushitic ancestry in Somalis considering their presence in the above clans who do not neighbour Oromos. We just do not have enough data, and the little data we currently possess has already thrown up anomalies.

 

[Apollo]

Hasn't E-M293 been found among a Northern Warsangeli and a South-Central Somali Gaaljecel?

I don't think he is a legitimate Warsangeli.

The guy is multigenerational Southerner and his maternal relatives are Hawadle (who are tied to the Degodia as a group often linked to Hawiyes but not actually Hawiye) and he acted like a troll online. He could be lying about his clan.

There are also some people in Jubbaland who became Darod-ized. Often of some kind of Raxanweyn origins.

For example, clear cut case with the Hawrarsame Marehan who have an Oromo-linked V32 subclade (E-Y161124) not of Northeast Somali origin.

Isn't there a Dhulbahante on YFull who belongs to an upstream subclade of E-Y161124?

That individual is legit, and look how far away he is from all the other ones. Suggesting he is ancestral to them and aiding my theories.

 

[anonimo]

I don't think he is a legitimate Warsangeli.

The guy was born in the South and his maternal relatives are Hawiye and he acted like a troll online.

There are also some people in Jubbaland who became Darod-ized. Often of some kind of Raxanweyn origins.

For example, clear cut case with the Hawrarsame Marehan who have an Oromo-linked V32 subclade (E-Y161124) not of Northeast Somali origin.

You might have a point if he was, for example, Cawramale but the Warsangeli guy matched with Isaaqs too on 23andme so it is safe to assume these matches are via his Reer Waqooyi paternal ancestry. I do not think we can cast doubt on his Qabil identity solely on his birth place and maternal clan. Even though he did open that Reddit thread in which he cast doubt on Somali Qabils but that can be explained as a knee jerk reaction caused by his anomalous haplogroup.

As for the Gaaljecel E-M293, this result could be used to argue that this haplogroup might not have been alien to ancient Somalis, especially those from certain clan confederations which have not been extensively tested. I do not think we can yet safely argue that over-represented North-Central Somalis are necessarily representative of the ancient haplogroup/subclade diversity that existed among the Cushitic ancestors of Somalis.

As for the Dhulbahante, his legitimacy would also indicate that ancient Somalis had heterogeneous haplogroups. The migration might very well have been from the North as demonstrated by the Eritrean E-V32 individual who harbours a similar subclade to the Northern Somalis. However, I do not think that it is a clear cut case of certain haplogroups migrating along the coast and others migrating South. From a haplogroup perspective, It might have been a mixed migration to begin with.

 

[Apollo]

You might have a point if he was, for example, Cawramale but the Warsangeli guy matched with Isaaqs too on 23andme so it is safe to assume these matches are via his Reer Waqooyi paternal ancestry. I do not think we can cast doubt on his Qabil identity solely on his birth place and maternal clan. Even though he did open that Reddit thread in which he cast doubt on Somali Qabils but that can be explained as a knee jerk reaction caused by his anomalous haplogroup.

Unless I find another Warsan that is not tied to him, I consider his result dubious/unreliable for now. In the low probability case he is, there is the high probability he is one of those Warsans that descend from assimilated Indian Ocean traders. There are Afro-Arabs with E-M293. There was a pseudo-Warsangeli with Persian linked R1b as well and obviously that has nothing to do with Ancient Somalis.

As for the Gaaljecel E-M293, this result could be used to argue that this haplogroup might not have been alien to ancient Somalis, especially those from certain clan confederations which have not been extensively tested. I do not think we can yet safely argue that over-represented North-Central Somalis are necessarily representative of the ancient haplogroup/subclade diversity that existed among the Cushitic ancestors of Somalis.

Issue with the Degodia is (in Kenya in particular) also come with high Borana Oromo autosomal ancestry and different autosomal patterns from other Somalis. This then leads me to the conclusion that any lineages found in them but not in other Somalis is potentially of a non-Somali (some other kind of Cushitic) absorbed population.

 

[anonimo]

Unless I find another Warsan that is not tied to him, I consider his result dubious/unreliable for now. In the low probability case he is, there is the high probability he is one of those Warsans that descend from assimilated Indian Ocean traders. There are Afro-Arabs with E-M293. There was a pseudo-Warsangeli with Persian linked R1b as well and obviously that has nothing to do with Ancient Somalis.



Issue with the Degodia is (in Kenya in particular) also come with high Borana Oromo autosomal ancestry and different autosomal patterns from other Somalis. This then leads me to the conclusion that any lineages found in them but not in other Somalis is potentially of a non-Somali (some other kind of Cushitic) absorbed population.

Fair enough.

 

[Shimbiris]

I do not subscribe to the idea that Somali speakers trace their origin around the lakes in southwest Ethiopia. The Ethiopian project showed a clear strong affinity between non-Somali speakers than with Somalis besides the general similarities that came from an earlier period.

You and @Apollo are correct around the genetics. Somalis don't make sense as coming from SW Ethiopia but there is actually some linguistic evidence I've seen that pokes holes in the idea that Af-Maxaa speakers were southwards around 2,000 years ago:



Af-Maxaa seems to have some Old-South Arabian loans meaning its speakers, if I'm not mistaken, must have been in the northern ends of the Somali peninsula around 1,500-2,000ybp. Mohamed Diriye Abdullahi, a Somali linguist also seems strongly opposed to the southern origins theory and also argues there maybe some loans from the Nile Valley in Somali like from Ancient Egyptian that point to an origin in the north:

Culture and Customs of Somalia

Somalia, the Horn of Africa nation, is finally recovering from recent wars and famine. Written by a native Somali, Culture and Customs of Somalia gives students and interested readers an in-depth look at the land and people, past and present. It is the only accessible, comprehensive, and...

books.google.ae

There is also the problem that there is no evidence of a substrata like Saho-Afar in Af-Maxaa. In fact, from what I recall a linguist pointing out, the influence of Saho-Afar in Af-Maxaa is as an adstrata meaning they came after into Somali lands and not before.

 

[Shimbiris]

@Apollo @Buufin @The alchemist

Some other stuff that maybe just asides that don't add up for me are things like the migration pattern being proposed with a southerly origin. So Af-Maxaa speakers were originally Koonfurians or around southern Galbeed in 1,500-2,000ybp then they migrate into more arid places like Waqooyi and Bari, usurp and absorb other Cushites there and then by the Middle Ages and Early Modern era start partly leaving this land they took for Koonfur (which they partly came from) and even further south in Kenya? What a strange migration pattern.

The idea that Af-Maxaa folks have been in the north and at best Galbeed from early on makes more sense to me. The migration pattern of Af-Maxaa speaking Somalis has probably always been one that has consistently been from north to more and more south in the last 2,000 years. Besides, Somalis have a pretty thoughtout way of migrating. Before they go somewhere they send out a sort of scout to get the lay of the lands up ahead and tell people if it's worth it to move. Unless there were some serious upheavals back then and some sort of population boom I don't know why anyone would leave the riverine south for somewhere like Bari. You'd think they'd just go more south?

 

[aden1812]

Unless I find another Warsan that is not tied to him, I consider his result dubious/unreliable for now. In the low probability case he is, there is the high probability he is one of those Warsans that descend from assimilated Indian Ocean traders. There are Afro-Arabs with E-M293. There was a pseudo-Warsangeli with Persian linked R1b as well and obviously that has nothing to do with Ancient Somalis.



Issue with the Degodia is (in Kenya in particular) also come with high Borana Oromo autosomal ancestry and different autosomal patterns from other Somalis. This then leads me to the conclusion that any lineages found in them but not in other Somalis is potentially of a non-Somali (some other kind of Cushitic) absorbed population.

cultural identity is a complex and multifaceted concept that cannot be reduced to genetic markers alone. genetic ancestry can provide insights into one's ancestry, determination of one's ethnic identity is a multifaceted process that involves various social, historical, and linguistic factors, and should not be reduced to genetic markers alone. As such, it is important to approach the interpretation of genetic data with a broader appreciation of the cultural and historical contexts in which it is situated.

In saying all that, I'm degodia, if my grandfather married a Japanese and my father married pacific islander, the father dictates Somali lineage. if somalis only married somalis, there wouldnt be a somalia left.

 

[Somali_patriotic]

I find Rendile to be more inteligible
I read somewhere it has different phonology and sentence structure from somali and may be closer to Hadiya .



Any one familiar?

@Balaayo , @CirkaIyoDhulka , @Apollo @Shimbiris

My mom is jiddu
Her grandfather made a dictionary about the language available online
She said they're descendents of dir
Now they claim to be digil
They're tall people with very Soft hair and dark skin
If there's macrobians it was undoubtedly them