ANAs were basically SSAs, lets not mince words

[Shimbiris]

Was getting tired of all these types dancing around ANA clearly being "SSA" in genetic structure and groups like Natufians thus clearly being SSA admixed and made a short treatise on the matter:

Iberomaurusians descend from a unique Sub-Saharan African lineage: Ancestral North African (ANA)

I've been away for some time but one thing that's always stuck with me are the results of the Iberomaurusian (Taforalt) samples from th...

anthromadness.blogspot.com

Feel free to send that to any NaTuFiANs WuZ PurE EuRAsiaNs ninjas and while I love any discussion on the forum, please feel free to comment and stir shit up in the comments. I've stopped moderating comments and it would be nice if the AM comment section turned into Eurogenes for African and MENA anthro and pop-gen subjects but no worries if not.

@The alchemist @Xareen @Step a side @Yami

 

[Einar68]

Just so I can understand your point, your saying that "Natufian" groups can't necessarily be far removed from the "sub Saharan" groups of it's era genetically?

 

[Garaad Awal]

Don't disrespect my in-laws walaal. they were humans.

But on a serious note. It's just semantic..yes they technically weren't SSA geographically but they are clearly an non-OOA group. It is an African component, only those in-denial Maghrebis deny that it is an indigenous African component.Now with that Libyan sample we know that it once covered a vast expanse of the continent at one point of time.

 

[Shimbiris]

Don't disrespect my in-laws walaal. they were humans.

But on a serious note. It's just semantic..yes they technically weren't SSA geographically but they are clearly an non-OOA group. It is an African component, only those in-denial Maghrebis deny that it is an indigenous African component.Now with that Libyan sample we know that it once covered a vast expanse of the continent at one point of time.

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Just so I can understand your point, your saying that "Natufian" groups can't necessarily be far removed from the "sub Saharan" groups of it's era genetically?

Basically looks like Natufians were 15-20% SSA which, genetically, is pretty much what ANA is. The rest of their ancestry is probably something very close to Anatolian Hunter-Gatherers and Farmers.

 

[NidarNidar]

I'll need to read it in full when I return home, but I get the gist.

 

[Midas]

So wait does that mean that groups that stand basically equal distant between ssa and eurasians were already present in africa 15 thosuand years ago ? Does that mean that the groups that mixed to create proto cushites happened before 15 thosuand years ago as well?

 

[NidarNidar]

So wait does that mean that groups that stand basically equal distant between ssa and eurasians were already present in africa 15 thosuand years ago ? Does that mean that the groups that mixed to create proto cushites happened before 15 thosuand years ago as well?

From what I recall reading, that component existed 23k ybp and is closely related to Maghrebi non-African genetic component, the Sinai acted as a natural corridor for people and technology to freely move in and out of Africa.

 

[Midas]

From what I recall reading, that component existed 23k ybp and is closely related to Maghrebi non-African genetic component, the Sinai acted as a natural corridor for people and technology to freely move in and out of Africa.

Wait doesn't e1b1 also come from the horn of africa? How do we knwo that the paternal ancestry of somalis is eurasia and not the subclade of e1b1 that stayed in africa ? If I read shimbris article correctly half of somalis mt-dna is eurasian

 

[Som]

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Basically looks like Natufians were 15-20% SSA which, genetically, is pretty much what ANA is. The rest of their ancestry is probably something very close to Anatolian Hunter-Gatherers and Farmers.

Didn't they originate in the middle east though? How did they become part SSA?

 

[Garaad Awal]

Didn't they originate in the middle east though? How did they become part SSA?

Iberomaurisian admixture entering via Egypt. The original E-M78 dudes were probably Iberomaurisian-like

 

[NidarNidar]

Wait doesn't e1b1 also come from the horn of africa? How do we knwo that the paternal ancestry of somalis is eurasia and not the subclade of e1b1 that stayed in africa ? If I read shimbris article correctly half of somalis mt-dna is eurasian

The Eurasian component for Somalis is maternal from my understanding, haplogroup E and even its parent DE clade are African in origin.

E-M215 originated in Northeast Africa (Horn of Africa) around 26,000–34,000 years ago, and spread through ancient migrations into North Africa.

 

[Garaad Awal]

@Shimbiris Do you think ANA was quite distinct phenotypicaly from the other non-OOA African groups? Reconstructions of these IBM & Morocco EN pops seem to be heavily Eurasian-shifted and less “black” (not referring to skin tone here) when compared to groups like the Beja or Northern Horners.

 

[Midas]

The Eurasian component for Somalis is maternal from my understanding, haplogroup E and even its parent DE clade are African in origin.

E-M215 originated in Northeast Africa (Horn of Africa) around 26,000–34,000 years ago, and spread through ancient migrations into North Africa.

View attachment 355204

Somebody needs to tell some of these guys it wasn't awow naftufian. But awowe Ancestral east african.

 

[Garaad Awal]

Somebody needs to tell some of these guys it wasn't awow naftufian. But awowe Ancestral east african.

Somalis are majority E-M78. which the Natufians weren't, the oldest E-M78 samples are from IBM-like samples throughout NW Africa/Maghreb. Probably E-M78 re-expanded East into Egypt. Other Horner groups & South Cushites ( and now Nilotes/Bantus of SE Africa) carry the downstream clades of the Natufians

 

[Midas]

Somalis are majority E-M78. which the Natufians weren't, the oldest E-M78 samples are from IBM-like samples throughout NW Africa/Maghreb. Probably E-M78 re-expanded East into Egypt. Other Horner groups & South Cushites ( and now Nilotes/Bantus of SE Africa) carry the downstream clades of the Natufians

I can get other horner groups having naftufian clades from the more recent south arabin expansion. But how do south cushites have it as well ?

 

[NidarNidar]

Somebody needs to tell some of these guys it wasn't awow naftufian. But awowe Ancestral east african.

Y & mtDNA are important for tracking migrations etc. What matters most is autosomal which include 6/7 generation of ancestors from both sides, most Somali bar a few outliers are very similar.

Natufians carried E-M123, Arabs score high due to mixing with them in the levant before J1 push into Arabia.

E-M123 formed in the middle east 15,000 -20,000 years ago in the Levant, they pretty much look like Yemenis but darker and as short, it's mostly found in Amhara, the Falasha, Wolayta and Oromo in Ethiopian but it peaks with Jordians.

Freq map.

I can get other horner groups having naftufian clades from the more recent south arabin expansion. But how do south cushites have it as well ?

Natufian men would have moved down with their women into the Nile, it's not surprising if some of these men travelled with Proto-Cushites.

 

[Shimbiris]

Didn't they originate in the middle east though? How did they become part SSA?

What basically looks to have happened is that Eurasians of the same type as Anatolian HGs (AHG-like) came to North-Africa all the way to the Maghreb sometime before 15,000 years ago. They then intermixed with ANAs who were seemingly Y-DNA E carriers (lineages like our own E-M35 clade) who, for whatever reason, seemed to either outcompete the Eurasian males or just coincidentally "won" when some bottlenecks occurred because we don't have any sign in the pre-historic Maghreb, as far as I know, of Eurasian Y-DNAs like J, T or what have you yet plenty of Eurasian mtDNA lineages you find in us, Masris and Maghrebis to this day.

Then, long-story short, these ANA+AHG-like mixed people then pulled an uno reverse and migrated back into West Asia, namely the Levant, bringing Y-DNA E lineages and some ANA-related admixture. I'll go into the Haplogroups, the archaeology and even the physical anthropology in future posts but for now this "back-migration" is probably marked by the Kebaran period:

Kebaran culture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

@Shimbiris Do you think ANA was quite distinct phenotypicaly from the other non-OOA African groups? Reconstructions of these IBM & Morocco EN pops seem to be heavily Eurasian-shifted and less “black” (not referring to skin tone here) when compared to groups like the Beja or Northern Horners.

I plan to do a post on this and refresh my memory deeply on the physical anthropology but, from what I remember, no. I actually remember physical anthropologists noting a phenotype shift in West-Eurasians with the on-set of the Neolithic that was quite marked in Natufians in particular. Lazaridis and his colleagues actually note this in the Dzudzuana pre-print; that ANA seeming basically SSA fits with the physical anthropology and they probably did look rather... "negroid", for lack of a better term. Again, will go into more detail another time and make sure I've got the details right.