arabisation

[Saciid]

Finaly the realativly speaking the historically recent swahilified garre living as far south as tanzania.

What do u think ab Somaloid involment in Swahili culture i general? Do u think it was only through recent Katwa Somalis or more ancient roles too?

 

[Garaad diinle]

What do u think ab Somaloid involment in Swahili culture i general? Do u think it was only through recent Katwa Somalis or more ancient roles too?

Hard to say the only swahili culture that showcases an influence of somali culture are the
northern swahili culture in lamu archipelago. The somali presence there is believed to date back to the 9th century. Swahili culture is not that old historicly speaking. Swahili culture began as an cultural and religious exchange between various muslim sailors on the indian ocean and the bantu inhabitants of south east coast of east africa. A number of muslim geographers noted that in the 12th-13th century other than somali coast and sofala there were no muslim costal city in east africa. The swahili language has a bantu substratum called Sabaki that is still spoken today meaning some sabaki bantus on the coast intermixed and adopted words from arabic, persian and hindi languages creating swahili language and culture. It became the Lingua franca used by traders that further spread it to other neighboring coastal cities.


The katwa and other swahilified somaloid people dispersal is often time thought to have began around the time of the oromo invasion that being 15th-16th century. Katwa found in mombasa make up one of the 12 main clans of the city but there were an even older structure that consisted of 5 main clans of mombasa that didn't include the katwa. Katwa are also found in malindi and lamu. My own assessment is that all somaliod presence in the swahili coast came after the oromo expansion when the swahili cultuer and language became well established. These somaliod retain a memory of their somali origin in forms of names and Shungwaya oral stories. Of course the shungwaya story are also found among other non somaloid bantus that might have been in shungwaya as a somali bantus or have taken these stories from somaloid people. There were other pure somali people that also came later such as the somali ruling family in lamu. Somali trader in mombasa had a large settelment and there were a somali presens in zanzibar.

Here is a portuguese map that shows shungwaya but others place it a little bit south of this map.

Of course not all somali or somaloid people visted the coast some of them made their way through land some of whom made it to tanzania. Here are some people that call themselfs somalis that came to tanzania 200 years ago.

 

[Saciid]

Hard to say the only swahili culture that showcases an influence of somali culture are the
northern swahili culture in lamu archipelago. The somali presence there is believed to date back to the 9th century. Swahili culture is not that old historicly speaking. Swahili culture began as an cultural and religious exchange between various muslim sailors on the indian ocean and the bantu inhabitants of south east coast of east africa.
A number of muslim geographers noted that in the 12th-13th century other than somali coast and sofala there were no muslim costal city in east africa.

No way that's true, what ab Kilwa and mafia and Lamu?

The swahili language has a bantu substratum called Sabaki that is still spoken today meaning some sabaki bantus on the coast intermixed and adopted words from arabic, persian and hindi languages creating swahili language and culture. It became the Lingua franca used by traders that further spread it to other neighboring coastal cities.

Swahili isn't a mix of Persian, Arabic, Hindi and sabaki substratum, it's just a Sabaki language. The idea that it was created by mixing different languages is a racist colonial myth, most Swahili dialects don't even have that much foreign lonewoards, only the standard, british-created one. Same with Swahili culture, even tho it obviously got foreign influences

The katwa and other swahilified somaloid people dispersal is often time thought to have began around the time of the oromo invasion that being 15th-16th century. Katwa found in mombasa make up one of the 12 main clans of the city but there were an even older structure that consisted of 5 main clans of mombasa that didn't include the katwa. Katwa are also found in malindi and lamu. My own assessment is that all somaliod presence in the swahili coast came after the oromo expansion when the swahili cultuer and language became well established. These somaliod retain a memory of their somali origin in forms of names and Shungwaya oral stories. Of course the shungwaya story are also found among other non somaloid bantus that might have been in shungwaya as a somali bantus or have taken these stories from somaloid people.

Do they identify as Somali? And how were they seen and treated by other Swahilis? Also do u belive in the Shungwaya myth?

There were other pure somali people that also came later such as the somali ruling family in lamu.

More info on them?

Somali trader in mombasa had a large settelment and there were a somali presens in zanzibar.

Where in Mombasa and who were they? I know Reer Bari, leed by Reer Sharmaarke, had strong ties to Zanzibar, but what else?

Here is a portuguese map that shows shungwaya but others place it a little bit south of this map.

Of course not all somali or somaloid people visted the coast some of them made their way through land some of whom made it to tanzania. Here are some people that call themselfs somalis that came to tanzania 200 years ago.

Interesting

 

[Garaad diinle]

No way that's true, what ab Kilwa and mafia and Lamu?

Lamu were first mentioned by al-maqrizi in late 14th century and according to the kilwa chronicales the half habashi prince that went on to found the kilwa sultanate landed first in mogadishu before he traveld south to kilwa meaning kilwa were proceeded by mogadishu as a muslim coastal city. I don't know anything about mafia.

Do they identify as Somali? And how were they seen and treated by other Swahilis? Also do u belive in the Shungwaya myth?

No most of them don't identify as somalis rather they see themselfs as swahili specialy when
they have intermixed with other swahili and adopted their culture fully that being said they still preserve some of it in oral stories. The other swahili only remembers the name katwa meaning meat eaters or something and that the poeple called katwa were pastoralist raiders. The shungwaya story has some element of truth to it but it's hard to know for sure. If anything It honestly sounds like lamu.

More info on them?

Nothing much is known about them. Lockals say that they were somalis living on land oppesite to lamu. They were called up for help against portuguese invader and were promised to rule half of siyu. In the 19th century the witu sultanate took their powers away so these somalis called up the zanzibari sultanate for help. These somalis helped the omanis to drive the witu sultanate inland and away from lamu archipelago. Funny thing is the sultan of witu claimed that he hails from arab, persian and somalis.

Where in Mombasa and who were they? I know Reer Bari, leed by Reer Sharmaarke, had strong ties to Zanzibar, but what else?

I've only came across it when i was reading an american account writing in the mid 19th century i believe that said that the somali settelment in mombasa was as large as the one in mocha i think. Nothing much was writing about it sadly.

I know that somali were found in zanzibar from somalis that told me themself and some account i read about foreingers in zanzibar. In fact up until 1950 some somalis were still sailing to zanzibar for trade and their are some somalis that say that they were born in zanzibar.

 

[Saciid]

Lamu were first mentioned by al-maqrizi in late 14th century and according to the kilwa chronicales the half habashi prince that went on to found the kilwa sultanate landed first in mogadishu before he traveld south to kilwa meaning kilwa were proceeded by mogadishu as a muslim coastal city. I don't know anything about mafia.

The Shirazi story is debunked walaal, the chronicle being unreliable and archeology showing native origins to the Swahili towns. Also archeology has shown that Swahili towns first existed withoit stone houses, even Kilws at its prime was still majority mud houses

No most of them don't identify as somalis rather they see themselfs as swahili specialy when
they have intermixed with other swahili and adopted their culture fully that being said they still preserve some of it in oral stories. The other swahili only remembers the name katwa meaning meat eaters or something and that the poeple called katwa were pastoralist raiders.

What kind of lineages do they carry? I know the Bajuni ones carry Garre, Ajuraan, Gaaljecel etc. lineages

The shungwaya story has some element of truth to it but it's hard to know for sure. If anything It honestly sounds like lamu.

That's what some Swahili historians belive; That Lamu Swahilis spread modern Swahili culture down south

Nothing much is known about them. Lockals say that they were somalis living on land oppesite to lamu. They were called up for help against portuguese invader and were promised to rule half of siyu. In the 19th century the witu sultanate took their powers away so these somalis called up the zanzibari sultanate for help. These somalis helped the omanis to drive the witu sultanate inland and away from lamu archipelago.

U're talking ab Siyu, not Lamu the town. Wrong to call them ruling family, more like one of the two important groups in Siyu, Lamu archipelago. Also J. de V. Allen, a major Swahili historian, doubts the story of how Katwa became part of Siyu

Funny thing is the sultan of witu claimed that he hails from arab, persian and somalis.

How so? Garre?

I've only came across it when i was reading an american account writing in the mid 19th century i believe that said that the somali settelment in mombasa was as large as the one in mocha i think. Nothing much was writing about it sadly.

Interesting

I know that somali were found in zanzibar from somalis that told me themself and some account i read about foreingers in zanzibar. In fact up until 1950 some somalis were still sailing to zanzibar for trade and their are some somalis that say that they were born in zanzibar.

Zanzibar was an important town, so no surprise there

 

[Garaad diinle]

The Shirazi story is debunked walaal, the chronicle being unreliable and archeology showing native origins to the Swahili towns. Also archeology has shown that Swahili towns first existed withoit stone houses, even Kilws at its prime was still majority mud houses

Every story has some element of truth to it and the shriazi story is no different.
The existence of persian traders that might have even founded some settelment is quite
possible. Zanzibar originaly pronounced zanji bar is most likely a persian name. In arabic it would
be pronounced as bar al-zinj so it's a arabic word pronounced in farsi.

That being said this does not mean that lockal bantu population didn't found anything and as you pointed out long before their were any stone building there were huts made out of wood and mud. Still there is no historical account of the swahili coast having a muslim coastal settelment in the 12th or 13th century. The first mention of the word swahili came from ibn battuta in the 14th century and zanzibar is said to have began around the early 14th century. Before that malindi and mombasa were never called muslim coastal citys. Of course i don't know if there are any manuscript that i might of missed. The oldest manuscript that i know of about east africa dates back to the 10th century.It's about a persian traveler adventures in the land of the man eating zingis.

What kind of lineages do they carry? I know the Bajuni ones carry Garre, Ajuraan, Gaaljecel etc. lineages

Killia, bimali and garri or garre.

U're talking ab Siyu, not Lamu the town. Wrong to call them ruling family, more like one of the two important groups in Siyu, Lamu archipelago. Also J. de V. Allen, a major Swahili historian, doubts the story of how Katwa became part of Siyu

Yeah my bad i keep mixing them up but what i meant was siyu. The account that i read said that they were the rulers of half of siyu until the witu sultanate took away their powers. Now wither they called themselfs katwa or somalis i don't know but what i read was a historical account of how the omanis took over the lamu archipelago. They received help from the somali who rebelled against the ruling power.

How so? Garre?

Didn't say but probably claimd it since the somalis in siyu were prominent respectful characters that are known for their religious knowledge and the witu sultanate were allied with the geledis.

 

[Saciid]

Every story has some element of truth to it and the shriazi story is no different.
The existence of persian traders that might have even founded some settelment is quite
possible. Zanzibar originaly pronounced zanji bar is most likely a persian name. In arabic it would
be pronounced as bar al-zinj so it's a arabic word pronounced in farsi.

That being said this does not mean that lockal bantu population didn't found anything and as you pointed out long before their were any stone building ther were huts made out of wood and mud. Still there is no historical account of the swahili coast having a muslim coastal settelment in the 12th or 13th century. The first mention of the word swahili came from ibn battuta in the 14th century and zanzibar is said to have began around the early 14th century. Before that malindi and mombasa were never called muslim coastal citys. Of course i don't know if there are any manuscript that i might of missed. The oldest manuscript that i know of about east africa dates back to the 10th century.It's about a persian traveler adventures in the land of the man eating zingis.

Read this: https://isaacsamuel.substack.com/p/the-political-history-of-the-swahili

It talks ab Swahili history and debunks the Shirazi myth. If u look at Isaac Samuel on twitter and search his old tweets ab Shirazi u will see more debunking.

 

[Garaad diinle]

Read this: https://isaacsamuel.substack.com/p/the-political-history-of-the-swahili

It talks ab Swahili history and debunks the Shirazi myth. If u look at Isaac Samuel on twitter and search his old tweets ab Shirazi u will see more debunking.

It's a chunky one and informative that being said the man has some opinions that i considered
hot takes, controversial or that he maybe driven by some sort of agenda. He considers mogadishu as part of the swahili coast despite the fact that ibn battuta that he himself clearly mention consider it as a part of the barbari coast. He calls the maqadishi language a swahili dialect with no evidence whatsoever.

 

[Shidanem]

Glad to be in the growing minority of Somalis who identifies as a Member of the Arab Realm.

 

[Laagite]

Glad to be in the growing minority of Somalis who identifies as a Member of the Arab Realm.

هذا صح

 

[Garaad diinle]

U found the scource yet? @Garaad diinle

Sadly i wasn't able to find the exact map i wanted to show but these map the oldest of whom were made at the tail end of the 17th century are based on an older map around the early 17th century.

 

[Saciid]

Sadly i wasn't able to find the exact map i wanted to show but these map the oldest of whom were made at the tail end of the 17th century are based on an older map around the early 17th century.

Who do u think the Les Machides are? Turton said it was unsure, unlike the Maracates who were Somalis, but could it have been the Ajuraan kingdom? They and Madanle were seen as similar groups and Machidas sounds alot like Madanle. Also this Portuguese report on them sounds interesting "powerful nation whose King descends from the Kings of Ethiopia with which it is still at war. They are Mohammedans"

 

[Garaad diinle]

Who do u think the Les Machides are? Turton said it was unsure, unlike the Maracates who were Somalis, but could it have been the Ajuraan kingdom? They and Madanle were seen as similar groups and Machidas sounds alot like Madanle. Also this Portuguese report on them sounds interesting "powerful nation whose King descends from the Kings of Ethiopia with which it is still at war. They are Mohammedans"

I think you got it in my opinion they were most likely the madale or ajuran. I use to have load of theories about who they were. There were most definitely multiple somali clans living in the area so why would they only mention one name unless they were an overarching ruling power presiding over the territory. Madanle are included in ajuran geneology and are often times associated with the ajuran.

The Mohammedans might also refer to their ruling system being an imma rather than a sultan. The portugues description might indicate a hidden history. Relation between southern somalia and hararghe is well known and mogadishu is mentioned in futuh and the fatah madinat harar and many somali clan say they came from there.

 

[NordicSomali]

I don’t know if you’re joking…

 

[Saciid]

I think you got it in my opinion they were most likely the madale or ajuran. I use to have load of theories about who they were. There were most definitely multiple somali clans living in the area so why would they only mention one name unless they were an overarching ruling power presiding over the territory. Madanle are included in ajuran geneology and are often times associated with the ajuran.

The Mohammedans might also refer to their ruling system being an imma rather than a sultan. The portugues description might indicate a hidden history. Relation between southern somalia and hararghe is well known and mogadishu is mentioned in futuh and the fatah madinat harar and many somali clan say they came from there.

It could also just be Mogadishu, which would be boring tbh ("The name of Magadoxa appears to be derived from the name Machidas, mentioned by Abyssinian writers. Malte Brun calls the country "kingdom of Magadoxa, or Makadscou," and closes his brief account of it by observing: "It is probable that the Machidas, mentioned by the Abyssinian histories, are no others than the Makadscou." Senex, on his map, has placed Maracates, and northward of the westward of his river Magadoxo, kingdom of Machida, a powerful nation, the is of the line of the Ethiopian kings, with whom he is always at war. They are Mohammeden.")

Intresting that he mentions that Machidas were written in Habashi scources. Could reveal ground breaking things if it is truly Ajuraan

 

[Garaad diinle]

It could also just be Mogadishu, which would be boring tbh ("The name of Magadoxa appears to be derived from the name Machidas, mentioned by Abyssinian writers. Malte Brun calls the country "kingdom of Magadoxa, or Makadscou," and closes his brief account of it by observing: "It is probable that the Machidas, mentioned by the Abyssinian histories, are no others than the Makadscou." Senex, on his map, has placed Maracates, and northward of the westward of his river Magadoxo, kingdom of Machida, a powerful nation, the is of the line of the Ethiopian kings, with whom he is always at war. They are Mohammeden.")

Intresting that he mentions that Machidas were written in Habashi scources. Could reveal ground breaking things if it is truly Ajuraan

You know what on a seconde look i think it must be mogadishu. I once read a story about
how the sultan of mogadishu was a habashi prince that run away from an enclosuar in bet amhara. This enclosuer was also mentioned in futuh. He ran to the adal and then married into
the ruling family. His descendants eventually became sultans of mogadishu. It's not a stretch
of imagination for a habashi prince to have joind the adal that being said for him to rule
over mogadishu is a well know habashi lie. They even claimed that imam ahmad as a habashi.


Now the habashi were well awer of mogadishu and one of the oldest mention of mogasishu aside from arab source were the habashi. One habashi ruler even mention mogadishu in the 15th century if i remember correctly

 

[Garaad diinle]

It could also just be Mogadishu, which would be boring tbh ("The name of Magadoxa appears to be derived from the name Machidas, mentioned by Abyssinian writers. Malte Brun calls the country "kingdom of Magadoxa, or Makadscou," and closes his brief account of it by observing: "It is probable that the Machidas, mentioned by the Abyssinian histories, are no others than the Makadscou." Senex, on his map, has placed Maracates, and northward of the westward of his river Magadoxo, kingdom of Machida, a powerful nation, the is of the line of the Ethiopian kings, with whom he is always at war. They are Mohammeden.")

Intresting that he mentions that Machidas were written in Habashi scources. Could reveal ground breaking things if it is truly Ajuraan

 

[Saciid]

You know what on a seconde look i think it must be mogadishu. I once read a story about
how the sultan of mogadishu was a habashi prince that run away from an enclosuar in bet amhara. This enclosuer was also mentioned in futuh. He ran to the adal and then married into
the ruling family. His descendants eventually became sultans of mogadishu. It's not a stretch
of imagination for a habashi prince to have joind the adal that being said for him to rule
over mogadishu is a well know habashi lie. They even claimed that imam ahmad as a habashi.


Now the habashi were well awer of mogadishu and one of the oldest mention of mogasishu aside from arab source were the habashi. One habashi ruler even mention mogadishu in the 15th century if i remember correctly

What's interesting is that Fakhrudin, who's said to have been the first dynasty of Mogadishu, are mentioned by the Wthio in the 14th century. He had 3 other brother, Umurdiine, Shamsdiine and ahmeddiine. U know ab this?

 

[Garaad diinle]

What's interesting is that Fakhrudin, who's said to have been the first dynasty of Mogadishu, are mentioned by the Wthio in the 14th century. He had 3 other brother, Umurdiine, Shamsdiine and ahmeddiine. U know ab this?

wthio?

 

[Saciid]

wthio?

Ethio