As-Sawa'iq Al Uluuhiya fee Radd 'Alal Wahhabiyya

[SuldaanGuled]

So you believe Allah is somewhere and has a physical existence???? Bruh, if that isn't tashbih I don't know what is. You're bringing examples that have fault premises and can't be applied to Allah, you stated in order for Allah to exist he has to be "somewhere". Your problem is you can't distinguish Al khaliq and Makhluuq. Allah solely is Al Khaliq, and every other thing is Makhluuq include time and space, so the question of where can't be applied to Allah

Let me ask you this. Do you believe Allah physically is above the heavens, and physically comes down at the last 3rd of the night? This is major kufr according to almost every aalim. I can quote a long list from Imam Ali(ra) to abu hanifa, to Iz ibn abdusalaa, to Imam suyuti to Imam subki etc. They all state believing Allah is place is kufr and for that reason the ulama of the 4 madaahib jailed ibn taymiya and completely banned his teachings. There's consensus on these issues from the 4 schools, and this has been the case from then till now

Yes i believe that Allah is above His heavens over His Throne (as befits His Majesty). What i mean by "physical" existence is that He isn't formless/image less. It would be tashbih if you interpret it using the definition which is based on the attributes of creation. When these words are applied to Allah they carry a unique meaning ie a different definition. Our definition that we derive from the creation in our material world is limited stop trying to interpret the attributes of Allah using this limited definition.

Pls go through my reply again it explains everything

Contrary to what you're saying i recognize the limitations of my aql which is why i can think of a form that transcends our material experience a form that is befitting to Allah only. Our material world isn't all that exists and as such i don't take my aql as the standard or yard stick and measure everything using it. While you on the other hand utilise your aql to do the complete opposite of me ie you reject or affirm things based on your aql alone. I'm a fallible being why would i give authority to my aql over issues it isn't suited for.

Affirming a form to Allah according to you would mean that He is limited, confined etc why because your definition of what a form is, is based on the attributes of the creation. You then take this definition as if it's all encompassing and then try to understand the form of Allah using it. This is your mistake.

you stated in order for Allah to exist he has to be "somewhere".

Walaal that statement of mine was a reply to brother Ashari where he said the following

He is where He was before He created time and space."

I've already answered this question in detail before, maybe you didn't understand it?

Time and space is created, and since God is the Only Creator, He created these entities. Where was He before time and space? That's where He is now.

As you can see the brother stated that Allah is where He was before He created time and space. I then pointed out the obvious fact which is that He was thinking of a "place/location" when he answered that question. Despite this he won't affirm a place to Allah even though he was thinking about it. The reason he won't is he's convinced that it would lead to tashbih.

Is it hard to accept that a "place/location" when it applies to Allah hasn't the same limitations as when it applies to created things ? This is the crux of the problem

so the question of where can't be applied to Allah

Had that been the case the Prophet (peace be upon him) wouldn't have asked the slave girl "Where is Allah". The word "where" generally speaking is used to ask questions about the place something is in, or is coming from or going to. It can also be used to ask questions about a situation, a stage in something, or an aspect of something.

In the context of the hadith in question the word "where" implies the meaning of a place. Since it's the Prophet (peace be upon him) who asked this question then we can affirm without a doubt that the question of where can be applied to Allah. My question to you would be on what evidential basis have you based your above statement on? we clearly can see from the hadith that the question of where applies to Allah but you say it doesn't , how did you come to this conclusion walaal if you don't mind me asking ?

 

[SuldaanGuled]

These types of conversations are very dangerous to engage in, I advice the brothers from both sides to disengage from this with simply Allah knows best. None of us are going to be asked these questions in our graves.

This very topic resulted in 4 different congregational prayers happening at Mecca at one point each accusing the other of Kufr which is far worse on top of dividing the Ummah which is equally as bad.

This topic is only relevant to 0.001% of the Muslim's whom engage in deep study and even then the way it's being conducted right now is shameless.

Horta aad ayaa uu mahadsantahay walaal

I do agree with your overall message and advice that you've shared with us walaal. I ask Allah that He forgives us for our shortcomings and accepts our good deeds ameen

It's human nature to try and seek fault with others and convince ourselves that we're on the right path while the rest have been led astray. Often at times we'll go to great lengths to make sure that we achieve the above aims without considering what the after effects such actions result in.

All of this happens because we never keep in check our own self bias which usually dictates how we contextualise things in the broader sense. So jazakallah khayr for short but concise reminder and may Allah reward you for it ameen

So walaalaha @xisaabiye ,@Ash'arite & @Khalid Hussein let's all agree to end it here

Jazakallah khayr for your participation

I'll take my leave from this wonderful discussion

Macsalam everyone

 

[xisaabiye]

It's a form of modern day arrogance that we can quote a hadith multiple times in the same thread, yet completely refuse to accept the agreed upon explanation of that hadith. You both quoted the hadith of the slave girl, and turned a blind eye to its explanation that has been accepted by the ummah and was never up for debate by the great scholars of the past. This is the difference between me and a salafi. You completely abandon the tradition of accepting the rightly guided ulama if it goes against your ideology. This happens in aqeedah and fiqh as well where salafis will quote a random hadith, verse, or saying of a scholar in English, with no scholarly explanation or context and say "look this is what it means", not knowing that this is completely haraam upon the laymen. A laymen cannot exercise ijtihaad and randomly quote verses and hadith without giving it's shar7. Anyway it seems like this will go full circle seeing how you and Khalid decided to use that same hadith which ashari give a thorough breakdown of what the A'immatul Islam have said regarding it.

 

[Khalid Hussein]

It's a form of modern day arrogance that we can quote a hadith multiple times in the same thread, yet completely refuse to accept the agreed upon explanation of that hadith. You both quoted the hadith of the slave girl, and turned a blind eye to its explanation that has been accepted by the ummah and was never up for debate by the great scholars of the past. This is the difference between me and a salafi. You completely abandon the tradition of accepting the rightly guided ulama if it goes against your ideology. This happens in aqeedah and fiqh as well where salafis will quote a random hadith, verse, or saying of a scholar in English, with no scholarly explanation or context and say "look this is what it means", not knowing that this is completely haraam upon the laymen. A laymen cannot exercise ijtihaad and randomly quote verses and hadith without giving it's shar7. Anyway it seems like this will go full circle seeing how you and Khalid decided to use that same hadith which ashari give a thorough breakdown of what the A'immatul Islam have said regarding it.

Akhi have you read the last two books of Imam Abu Hasan al
Ash'ari.

If you want to read I will tell you
al-Ibaanah an Usool id-Diyaanah
al-Maqaalaat ul-Islaamiyyeen.

The Hadith is clear cut proof Allah is Above the Heavens and the Arsh. You always quote from Imam Abu Hasan, just accept the fact. You know how many time Allah is Above his Throne, Allah is above of his creations, but he is close to them by his knowledge. If you have a fully working brain of the Hadith, there is no need of interpretation.

 

[xisaabiye]

Akhi have you read the last two books of Imam Abu Hasan al
Ash'ari.

If you want to read I will tell you
al-Ibaanah an Usool id-Diyaanah
al-Maqaalaat ul-Islaamiyyeen.

The Hadith is clear cut proof Allah is Above the Heavens and the Arsh. You always quote from Imam Abu Hasan, just accept the fact. You know how many time Allah is Above his Throne, Allah is above of his creations, but he is close to them by his knowledge. If you have a fully working brain of the Hadith, there is no need of interpretation.

"If you have a fully working brain of the Hadith, there is no need of interpretation"


Fix up your grammar, sentence structure and complete misuse of words before trying to interpret the words of the greatest of all creation(saw)

 

[Khalid Hussein]

"If you have a fully working brain of the Hadith, there is no need of interpretation"


Fix up your grammar, sentence structure and complete misuse of words before trying to interpret the words of the greatest of all creation(saw)

Laugh, at least I am not those who will go to Hell-Fire. You are just one of the 73 sects that will go Hell-fire