As-Sawa'iq Al Uluuhiya fee Radd 'Alal Wahhabiyya

[xisaabiye]

What did imam malik, as shafic iyo abu hanifa all have to say about Al istawa ? it goes back way beyond ibn taymiya it didn't start with him. This is the conclusion i came to after weighing up the evidences and looking at the two sides of the argument

They didn't say what salafi scholars like Ibn uthaymeen said, that Al istiwa means istiqraar(to settle) acuudubillah.

According to ibn kathir, what I said is the position of the salaf and the four imaams and imam Al awzai etc. That we believe in it as it has come, without saying how it is meant, and without negating it altogether , and we reject the literal meaning that comes to mind of anthropomorphists and maintain laysa kamithlihi shay'a, that there is nothing like Him( subhaana wata3aala)



قال الإمام ابن كثير في التفسير القران العظيم

: تفسير:{ثُمَّ ٱسْتَوَىٰ عَلَى ٱلْعَرْشِۚ} فللناس في هذا المقام مقالات كثيرة جداً ليس هذا موضع بسطها وإنما نسلك في هذا المقام مذهب السلف الصالح مالك والأوزاعي والثوري والليث بن سعد والشافعي وأحمد بن حنبل وإسحاق بن راهويه وغيرهم من أئمة المسلمين قديماً وحديثاً وهو إمرارها كما جاءت من غير تكييف ولا تشبيه ولا تعطيل والظاهر المتبادر إلى أذهان المشبهين منفي عن الله لا يشبهه شيء من خلقه و{لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِۦ شَىْءٌۖ وَهُوَ ٱلسَّمِيعُ ٱلْبَصِيرُ

 

[SuldaanGuled]

They didn't say what salafi scholars like Ibn uthaymeen said, that Al istiwa means istiqraar(to settle) acuudubillah.

According to ibn kathir, what I said is the position of the salaf and the four imaams and imam Al awzai etc. That we believe in it as it has come, without saying how it is meant, and without negating it altogether , and we reject the literal meaning that comes to mind of anthropomorphists and maintain laysa kamithlihi shay'a, that there is nothing like Him( subhaana wata3aala)



قال الإمام ابن كثير في التفسير القران العظيم

: تفسير:{ثُمَّ ٱسْتَوَىٰ عَلَى ٱلْعَرْشِۚ} فللناس في هذا المقام مقالات كثيرة جداً ليس هذا موضع بسطها وإنما نسلك في هذا المقام مذهب السلف الصالح مالك والأوزاعي والثوري والليث بن سعد والشافعي وأحمد بن حنبل وإسحاق بن راهويه وغيرهم من أئمة المسلمين قديماً وحديثاً وهو إمرارها كما جاءت من غير تكييف ولا تشبيه ولا تعطيل والظاهر المتبادر إلى أذهان المشبهين منفي عن الله لا يشبهه شيء من خلقه و{لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِۦ شَىْءٌۖ وَهُوَ ٱلسَّمِيعُ ٱلْبَصِيرُ

قال الإمام مالك (179 هـ) جوابا على من سأله "كيف استوى؟":«الإستواء غير مجهول، والكيف غير معقول، والسؤال عنه بدعة، والإيمان به واجب». والأثر مشهور عند أهل العلم.

قال وكيع بن الجراح (197 هـ) في أحاديث الصفات: « نُسلِّم هذه الأحاديث كما جاءت ، ولا نقول كيف هذا؟ ولم جاء هذا ؟» (12)


قال أبو بكر الإسماعيلي (371 هـ) : (وأنه عز وجل استوى على العرش بلا كيف، فإن الله تعالى أنهى (13) إلى أنّه استوى على العرش، ولم يذكُر كيف كان استواؤُه.)



أحمد بن حنبل (241 هـ) : قال يوسف بن موسى القطان (177): (قيل لأبي عبد الله أحمد بن حنبل: الله عز و جل فوق السماء السابعة على عرشه بائن من خلقه وقدرته وعلمه في كل مكان؟
قال: « نعم على العرش وعلمه لا يخلو منه مكان. “ صحيح

They certainly believed in Allah rising above His throne but stopped there and didn't ask questions as to "how" so they affirmed the literal meaning of it but left it at that as the true nature of it is only known to Allah.

 

[xisaabiye]

The allegations are based on whether or not the book known as Al Ibanah was actually authored by him. The correct understanding is that it was authored by him. However, tenets that he upholds is the same one that he upholds in his earlier works.

Another thing to consider is that none of his students nor their students ever recorded that Abu Hasan al Ash'ari went through three stages.

I challenge anyone to bring any explicit statement from any of his students or their students that give this implication.

It's absurd that salafi mention this about imam ashari and Al ghazali, yet non of their direct students ever mentioned this and they followed what we know as the ashari creed. It's also mind boggling that the greatest ulama to ever exist were upon a misguided creed, and only the salafi who came in the past 30 years hold the truth lol.

They certainly believed in Allah rising above His throne but stopped there and didn't ask questions as to "how" so they affirmed the literal meaning of it but left it at that as the true nature of it is only known to Allah.

They didn't affirm a literal meaning whatsoever, they affirmed belief of what was mentioned in the verse. As imam ibn kathir states, they believed it as it came....They didn't say we affirm a literal meaning of Al istiwa, and in your quotes they didn't say what you said, that Al istiwa means "rising above the throne". This is what salafis do, taweel ma3na 3alaa dhaahir bil 7aqeeq, taking the literal meaning and interpretation. This is by no means the position of the rightly guided ulama or the majority.

 

[SuldaanGuled]

You haven't weighed anything

Have you read any of these books:

'Aqeedatul Murshidah by Ibn 'Asakir

Jawhar ut Tawhid with the commentary by al Bajuri

'Aqeedatul Nasafiyy by An Nasafi

If you haven't read these books as a minimum. Then you haven't weighed anything.

I haven't but could you summarize the main points as i don't have access to them nor is my arabic that good. Also don't you need a teacher as well to explain it to you ?

You still didn't answer my question regarding seeing Allah in the hereafter properly. If you believe that we will see Allah, will this be with our sight ie with our eyes or do you believe it's not possible to see Him at all ?

 

[SuldaanGuled]

It's absurd that salafi mention this about imam ashari and Al ghazali, yet non of their direct students ever mentioned this and they followed what we know as the ashari creed. It's also mind boggling that the greatest ulama to ever exist were upon a misguided creed, and only


They didn't affirm a literal meaning whatsoever, they affirmed belief of what was mentioned in the verse. As imam ibn kathir states, they believed it as it came....They didn't say we affirm a literal meaning of Al istiwa, and in your quotes they didn't say what you said, that Al istiwa means "rising above the throne". This is what salafis do, taweel ma3na 3alaa dhaahir bil 7aqeeq, taking the literal meaning and interpretation. This is by no means the position of the rightly guided ulama or the majority.

Sax imam malik says that Al- istawa is not unknown question is why would he state this ? if he didn't accept the apparent meaning of it he would have never said it is not unknown

 

[xisaabiye]

Sax imam malik says that Al- istawa is not unknown question is why would he state this ? if he didn't accept the apparent meaning of it he would have never said it is not unknown

Sxb the real problem lies in the translation of Al istawa to "above the throne" which led salafi scholars like ibn uthaymeen to go further and say it means istiqraar(to settle) a3uudubillah. If you were to say I believe in the verses as they came without adding literal interpretations, then this is what is correct according to the salaf. And that is why Ibn kathir specifically mentioned Imam malik and ash shaafici. The moment you start saying Al Istawa means Allah is above the throne, then you lost the plot because you gave a literal ta'weel which has never been done by the salaf. Then many salafis go further to say Allah is above the throne "bi dhaatihi(in his essence) wal3iyaadubillah. All of this is the real horrific bid3a dalaalah

 

[Khalid Hussein]

I'm part of what you call ahbash, why are we a problem? because we mentally assault wahhabis? Wahhabis couldnt even enter Harar because we are the people of imam ahmed (a sufi) not osama. even wikileaks admitted that hararis booted wahhabis out https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09ADDISABABA1674_a.html

In Eithopia Ahbash even though they don't make much, they make Agreements wit

I'm part of what you call ahbash, why are we a problem? because we mentally assault wahhabis? Wahhabis couldnt even enter Harar because we are the people of imam ahmed (a sufi) not osama. even wikileaks admitted that hararis booted wahhabis out https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09ADDISABABA1674_a.html

You know what you did to innocent Muslims in Ethiopia. You made agreements with the Ethiopian Government to kill Muslims this is Haram. You can't make a deal with Kuffar and kill Muslims.

 

[Khalid Hussein]

Sxb the real problem lies in the translation of Al istawa to "above the throne" which led salafi scholars like ibn uthaymeen to go further and say it means istiqraar(to settle) a3uudubillah. If you were to say I believe in the verses as they came without adding literal interpretations, then this is what is correct according to the salaf. And that is why Ibn kathir specifically mentioned Imam malik and ash shaafici. The moment you start saying Al Istawa means Allah is above the throne, then you lost the plot because you gave a literal ta'weel which has never been done by the salaf. Then many salafis go further to say Allah is above the throne "bi dhaatihi(in his essence) wal3iyaadubillah. All of this is the real horrific bid3a dalaalah

Istawa means to rose over and settle.
Ala means to be over and Above.

 

[Khalid Hussein]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves... saying that the Athari creed is outside of ahlul sunnah is equivalent to what salafis claim about the ashari or maturidi creed.

You know what funny the Ahbash and other Sufis think that Imam al Ashari and Abu Mansoor maturidi are some sort of Saviour and reviver of the Deen. I have went to a Sufi school for 4 years, will tell you lies upon lies what they said. They Treat Imam Ashari like Prophet Muhammad.

 

[Young Popeye]

In Eithopia Ahbash even though they don't make much, they make Agreements wit

You know what you did to innocent Muslims in Ethiopia. You made agreements with the Ethiopian Government to kill Muslims this is Haram. You can't make a deal with Kuffar and kill Muslims.

Its ok to poison Sufis though right? Your psychopath ideology elects Amirs to do criminal activity, you dont know what law and order is. If you follow Ibn Taymiyyah the kafir its not my issue. Ahbash also controls Puntland, and Al Shabab cant breathe, we cutting their ideological supply http://www.garoweonline.com/en/news...scholars-move-to-preach-against-shia-doctrine

 

[Khalid Hussein]

I was hopinh youd mention imam tabari. Check what Imam tabari says when he comes to the sifaat of Allah in his tafsir. Check what he says about the saaq("shin") in his tafsiir It's all in line with ahlul sunnah and completely against anything your so called salafi camp teaches

Its ok to poison Sufis though right? Your psychopath ideology elects Amirs to do criminal activity, you dont know what law and order is. If you follow Ibn Taymiyyah the kafir its not my issue. Ahbash also controls Puntland, and Al Shabab cant breathe, we cutting their ideological supply http://www.garoweonline.com/en/news...scholars-move-to-preach-against-shia-doctrine

Hey mr sufi
Do you think a follow al shabab. They are Khawarij so as ISIS

 

[Khalid Hussein]

The prophet saying this means we will see Allah in truth, it doesn't entail a form etc. This is why early ulama like the salaf muhadith sufyan ibn 3uyayna said al hadith mudil ilaa li alfuqaha which means hadith is missguidance(for all) except the people of fiqh.

The real question is, what does sight even mean when speaking about akhiro? We're talking about a different world altogether so don't confuse your limited understanding of vision in this temporal world with that of the eternal. With that being said, what is required upon you is to simply believe in these hadith and verses without need to delve into them. And on a side note, only mutawaatir hadith, hadith containing soo many narrations it's authentication is on par with the quran, can be used in belief.

We will see Allah in Jannah. There is no Doubt, It mention in the Quran and Hadith as narrated by Abu Tharr

: "I asked the Prophet

: 'Did you see your Lord?' He replied: 'Light, how could I see Him?'”

An Nawawi commentated on the Hadith “Imaam Abu Abdullaah Al-Maaziri said: “The pronoun in "see Him" refers to Allaah, and the meaning is that: the light prevented me from vision as it is usual that the sight is prevented from seeing because the light blinds it, and the light prevents the seer from realizing what he is looking at.”

If anyone knows Arabic Hijab means veil. A veil is something that covers something. This veil is a Veil made from Light. That why Prophet couldn't See Allah.

 

[Khalid Hussein]

Do you believe that we will see Allah in the same manner as we see the moon and sun ? The ru'yah of Allah will be with the eyes and the Prophet peace be upon him affirms this when he asks the companions if they'll have doubts seeing the moon and the sun. when the companions affirm in the positive He then informs them that they will likewise see Allah in the same fashion.

If the "seeing" meant anything but sight with the eyes why would the Prophet ask them questions whether they saw the moon and the sun ?

Yes i do believe that we will see Allah and that this sight will be with our eyes, exactly as our Prophet peace be upon him is describing in the hadith.

I was listening to a talk one day, The Speaker said: "They're is something Better than Jannah, Seeing your lord who Created you and the one you worshiped your whole life".

 

[Khalid Hussein]

Those who cut the Sanad between us and the tabi'een are innovators, the prophet said the likes of these will end up with dajjal, we're not afraid of you Khalid, you will always be a minority.

Be as big as you want, act as big as you want I will stop your Biddah. Celebrate your Shia Fatimid Mawlid.

 

[SuldaanGuled]

Sxb the real problem lies in the translation of Al istawa to "above the throne" which led salafi scholars like ibn uthaymeen to go further and say it means istiqraar(to settle) a3uudubillah. If you were to say I believe in the verses as they came without adding literal interpretations, then this is what is correct according to the salaf. And that is why Ibn kathir specifically mentioned Imam malik and ash shaafici. The moment you start saying Al Istawa means Allah is above the throne, then you lost the plot because you gave a literal ta'weel which has never been done by the salaf. Then many salafis go further to say Allah is above the throne "bi dhaatihi(in his essence) wal3iyaadubillah. All of this is the real horrific bid3a dalaalah

The saying of imam maalik that istawa is not uknown shows that he affirmed not only the wording but also the meaning of it. He wouldn't need to specify the "how" if the meaning was also unknown.

In the hadith that i posted earlier are you saying that when the Prophet (peace be upon him) affirms that we will see Allah just like we see the moon and sun then no one knows what this means ?

If the meaning "seeing Allah" was not known why would the Prophet (peace be upon him) use the example of the moon and sun ? bal ii sheeg sxb or are you also claiming that we dont know the meaning of "seeing the sun and moon"

 

[Khalid Hussein]

اَلسَّلَامُ عَلَيْكُم
See you blokes

 

[xisaabiye]

The saying of imam maalik that istawa is not uknown shows that he affirmed not only the wording but also the meaning of it. He wouldn't need to specify the "how" if the meaning was also unknown.

In the hadith that i posted earlier are you saying that when the Prophet (peace be upon him) affirms that we will see Allah just like we see the moon and sun then no one knows what this means ?

If the meaning "seeing Allah" was not known why would the Prophet (peace be upon him) use the example of the moon and sun ? bal ii sheeg sxb or are you also claiming that we dont know the meaning of "seeing the sun and moon"

He affirmed Al istawa as mentioned in the verse, he didn't say Al istawa means above the throne LITERALLY..how hard is that to understand? It's funny that Al istawa is used in different contexts in the quran with different meanings but yet once salafis hear it used in relation to Allah they define it definitively as meaning to settle(istiqraar) acuudubillah. That in itself is proof of the anthropomorphic logic behind it.

Takale do you believe Allah is in a "place" like other salafis, ie a specific location

 

[SuldaanGuled]

He affirmed Al istawa as mentioned in the verse, he didn't say Al istawa means above the throne LITERALLY..how hard is that to understand? It's funny that Al istawa is used in different contexts in the quran with different meanings but yet once salafis hear it used in relation to Allah they define it definitively as meaning to settle(istiqraar) acuudubillah. That in itself is proof of the anthropomorphic logic behind it.

Takale do you believe Allah is in a "place" like other salafis, ie a specific location

Why else would he say that istiwa is not uknown ie known if he didn't affirm the apparent meaning of it ? What about the hadith where the Prophet peace be upon him asks the slave girl where Allah is ?

As i stated earlier the existence of Allah can't be an abstract one because believing so negates His existence. So i do agree with the salafi view when it comes to this issue, now saying that it's important to clarify that "place" simply refers to location where the actual Essence of Allah is. The Essence of Allah can't be everywhere, or even mixed with His creation, It's separate from His creation.

I'm assuming that you believe Allah Most High exists beyond time, space, location and ‘physical’ direction; He is where He has always been. No if i were to ask you where is that ? what would you answer be ?


Regardless what you're convinced of, logically speaking Allah has to be "somewhere" call it a "place", "location" etc so it's a matter of logical necessity that a person has to affirm this otherwise you'll be left with a belief in an abstract existence of Allah. There is no avoiding this tbh.

Furthermore the similarity of "place" "location" to the way we understand it to be is in name only. The problem i see that you've is that you can't think of a "place" without likening it to the way we understand it ie a place that doesn't have the attributes of this world. Which is why in your mind you believe it to be anthropomorphic , this is a logical flaw in understanding from you part.

It's like saying we can't affirm seeing and hearing to Allah because doing so would mean that we've likened Him to His creation. Again the major flaw here is that one is understanding or trying to interpret these attributes of Allah using the attributes of His creation. Which is why they reject the apparent meaning because doing so according to them would mean that they will be doing tashbih.

I believe that if you stopped interpreting this things based on how you understand them from this world would be of great benefit ruunti.

If the meaning "seeing Allah" was not known why would the Prophet (peace be upon him) use the example of the moon and sun ? bal ii sheeg sxb or are you also claiming that we dont know the meaning of "seeing the sun and moon"

I would like to hear your answer to the above question

Mahadsanid walaal

 

[xisaabiye]

Why else would he say that istiwa is not uknown ie known if he didn't affirm the apparent meaning of it ? What about the hadith where the Prophet peace be upon him asks the slave girl where Allah is ?

As i stated earlier the existence of Allah can't be an abstract one because believing so negates His existence. So i do agree with the salafi view when it comes to this issue, now saying that it's important to clarify that "place" simply refers to location where the actual Essence of Allah is. The Essence of Allah can't be everywhere, or even mixed with His creation, It's separate from His creation.

I'm assuming that you believe Allah Most High exists beyond time, space, location and ‘physical’ direction; He is where He has always been. No if i were to ask you where is that ? what would you answer be ?


Regardless what you're convinced of, logically speaking Allah has to be "somewhere" call it a "place", "location" etc so it's a matter of logical necessity that a person has to affirm this otherwise you'll be left with a belief in an abstract existence of Allah. There is no avoiding this tbh.

Furthermore the similarity of "place" "location" to the way we understand it to be is in name only. The problem i see that you've is that you can't think of a "place" without likening it to the way we understand it ie a place that doesn't have the attributes of this world. Which is why in your mind you believe it to be anthropomorphic , this is a logical flaw in understanding from you part.

It's like saying we can't affirm seeing and hearing to Allah because doing so would mean that we've likened Him to His creation. Again the major flaw here is that one is understanding or trying to interpret these attributes of Allah using the attributes of His creation. Which is why they reject the apparent meaning because doing so according to them would mean that they will be doing tashbih.

I believe that if you stopped interpreting this things based on how you understand them from this world would be of great benefit ruunti.




I would like to hear your answer to the above question

Mahadsanid walaal

Istiwa doesn't have an apparent meaning and that's the whole point. It has 15+ meanings, and many examples of this are in the quran itself. The fact that salafis used "to sit", or "settle" and chose the most comparable meaning to what humans would relate to when it comes to a throne shows the clear anthropomorphic inclination.

Did you ever read the explanation of the hadith of the slave girl? I suggest you do, Imam nawawi answers your question beautifully. That's the problem when we take hadith and ayaat and interpret based on our own faulty understanding, we come to false conclusions

 

[Ash'arite]

I shall respond soon to some of the allegations of Mr Guled. Some of the features on my phone doesn't allow a well informed response.