Atheist have no morals, they have no obligations to anyone.

[Jaydaan]

We’re on the same page.

Human morality can’t be objective. We don’t have that uniformity. The same things we agree are bad in one society, a next society disagrees, and even if they do agree, it’s not often they’d agree on the severity of the crime and its punishment. Or time passes, and the morality of that same society changes.

The only reason we seem to have some themes like murder, stealing, etc, being commonly viewed negatively cross-culturally has to do with the obvious affinity preventing those incidents has on the survival and cohesion of the group. Many other crimes are not as obvious, and that’s where variation occurs.

As for religious morality, if one wants to argue that morality is sourced from god and religion, you can no longer refer to it as “objective reality”.

If something is moral because god says its moral, it’s not objective morality. It’s subjective morality. People are made to follow the proposed guidelines because god commanded it, not because it’s “objectively moral”. We don’t have to agree with God’s commands morally. That’s the complete opposite of what religion preaches.

You are overthinking it. Its been proven over and over religious people are more generous, less corrupt and in general just better people. But non believers like you love to mud the discussions with objective morals and peoples intentions. You either do good or not. None believers are simply more selfish because you believe this world is all you got. You dont care for consequences. we on the other hand do

 

[VixR]

You are overthinking it. Its been proven over and over religious people are more generous, less corrupt and in general just better people. But non believers like you love to mud the discussions with objective morals and peoples intentions. You either do good or not. None believers are simply more selfish because you believe this world is all you got. You dont care for consequences. we on the other hand do

The average religious person is just as corruptible as an atheist. God is a poor threat, despite the incredible imagery of punishment and hellfire. With God, you sin now and repent later. People need order and immediate consequences. If God was enough, religious countries would be as safe, or safer than secular/Western ones. They’re most definitely not, even with the extreme punishments.

 

[astorecalledkmart]

The average religious person is just as corruptible as an atheist. God is a poor threat, despite the incredible imagery of punishment and hellfire. With God, you sin now and repent later. People need order and immediate consequences. If God was enough, religious countries would be as safe, or safer than secular/Western ones.

I think that speaks more to the innate weakness of the human, rather than any deficiency in the Almighty. Humans fear the here and now and seek instant gratification. Similarly, they often fear instant punishment such as imprisonment as opposed to say, going to Hell, especially when they believe in an All-Merciful God who has the capacity to forgive as opposed to a legal system that will not. Few humans have the foresight to actually practice the deen the way it should be practiced

 

[VixR]

I think that speaks more to the innate weakness of the human, rather than any deficiency in the Almighty. Humans fear the here and now and seek instant gratification. Similarly, they often fear instant punishment such as imprisonment as opposed to say, going to Hell, especially when they believe in an All-Merciful God who has the capacity to forgive as opposed to a legal system that will not. Few humans have the foresight to actually practice the deen the way it should be practiced

So you agree it’s ineffective?

Not to mention the idea that atheists are less generous, more corrupt, worse people, etc, is unfounded. Less happy, maybe, but God is a necessary security blanket for many.

 

[Jaydaan]

The average religious person is just as corruptible as an atheist. God is a poor threat, despite the incredible imagery of punishment and hellfire. With God, you sin now and repent later. People need order and immediate consequences. If God was enough, religious countries would be as safe, or safer than secular/Western ones. They’re most definitely not, even with the extreme punishments.

I see you didnt disagree with any of my points. But you really believe people sin on purpose with the thinking I can always repent? Or you talking about Christians? All these western countries you seem to praise are built on christian values. its only recently godless athiest has risen with their twisted mind

 

[VixR]

I see you didnt disagree with any of my points. But you really believe people sin on purpose with the thinking I can always repent? Or you talking about Christians? All these western countries you seem to praise are built on christian values. its only recently godless athiest has risen with their twisted mind

Of course, I don’t agree.

You have a twisted mind yourself, among plenty of Muslims. Explain that first?

Think of the last “sin” you committed. You knew god was there when you were about to commit it, you may have even wrestled with it, or maybe not, but God didn’t win. Later you asked God for forgiveness, or maybe you still haven’t gotten around to that.

 

[astorecalledkmart]

So you agree it’s ineffective?

This is turning into a very interesting discussion now. I think it's nuanced. I believe it's extremely effective for those with an appreciation of the afterlife. An analogy would be immunization against polio or measles. The vaccine (deen) is extremely effective if you understand the purpose of it (avoiding polio or going to hell). If one fears the jab of the needle or the nonsense regarding autism risk, they will refuse the vaccine. Prophets preached the word of Allah SWT and people still refused - this isn't conjecture, but is in the Holy Quran itself.

"And Allah wants to lighten for you [your difficulties]; and mankind was created weak" - Surah An-Nisa verse 28

I believe that humans are inherently weak and that it takes a certain degree of fortitude to control our base desires tbh.

 

[Jaydaan]

Of course I don’t agree.

You have twisted mind yourself among plenty of Muslims. Explain that first.

Think of the last sin you committed. You knew god was there when you were about to commit it, you may have even wrestled with it, or maybe not, but God didn’t win.

oh the old classic hold people of faith to unrealistic standards. But since you dont believe anything is sin we cant reverse the question on you. If you really believe in god you wouldnt commit sins.....you really gonna go with that one? Oh how the mighty has fallen. Vix was once fierce debater guys

 

[VixR]

oh the old classic hold people of faith to unrealistic standards. But since you dont believe anything is sin we cant reverse the question on you. If you really believe in god you wouldnt commit sins.....you really gonna go with that one? Oh how the mighty has fallen. Vix was once fierce debater guys

My point is, God is a poor threat. You may have an inclination towards that “sin”, you may have made it a habit, you may have poor self control. Any atheist who doesn’t have that particular struggle is that much better at you at staying away from it. At any rate, you might be better at something else. It all evens out in the end. You’re just as fallible as the other. It’s funny to me that you think you’re morally better than a next atheist.

 

[Jaydaan]

My point is, God is a poor threat. You may have an inclination towards that “sin”, you may have made it a habit, you may have poor self control. Any atheist who doesn’t have that particular struggle is that much better at you at staying away from it. At any rate, you might be better at something else. It all evens out in the end. You’re just as fallible as the other. It’s funny to me that you think you’re morally better than a next atheist.

I try to be better and more moral. you dont believe in an afterlife or god and has anything goes mentality. thats the difference between us. i try to be better person

 

[VixR]

I try to be better and more moral. you dont believe in an afterlife or god and has anything goes mentality. thats the difference between us. i try to be better person

Who told you I don’t try to be better? If anything I’m doing it for the hell of it, and you’re doing it for heaven, no pun intended. So who’s actually the better person?

 

[AhmedSmelly]

This is turning into a very interesting discussion now. I think it's nuanced. I believe it's extremely effective for those with an appreciation of the afterlife. An analogy would be immunization against polio or measles. The vaccine (deen) is extremely effective if you understand the purpose of it (avoiding polio or going to hell). If one fears the jab of the needle or the nonsense regarding autism risk, they will refuse the vaccine. Prophets preached the word of Allah SWT and people still refused - this isn't conjecture, but is in the Holy Quran itself.

"And Allah wants to lighten for you [your difficulties]; and mankind was created weak" - Surah An-Nisa verse 28

I believe that humans are inherently weak and that it takes a certain degree of fortitude to control our base desires tbh.

I have to say, you are the only muslim I admire to be. Your mannerism and how much you align yourself to the word of Allah. I respect that you never get emotional over things. A true muslim, a pragmatic muslim. I hope you never change. Every time, I come across a comment of yours, I feel happy. Seeing someone neutral(aligning himself with God) and not spewing ignorant/emotional comments, it makes me feel hopeful for this ummah. Thank you, for your insight in Islam and commenting for behalf of us ignorant muslims. Thank you for guiding people to Allah.

 

[Jaydaan]

Who told you I don’t try to be better? If anything I’m doing it for the hell of it, and you’re doing it for heaven, no pun intended. So who’s actually the better person?

You have far laxer rules. We have a lot more rules to abide by. Btw you know this anyway. I am talking to you like someone who has been Gaal all their life. It was only yesterday you were sheikhad lol.

 

[astorecalledkmart]

I have to say, you are the only muslim I admire to be. Your mannerism and how much you align yourself to the word of Allah. I respect that you never get emotional over things. A true muslim, a pragmatic muslim. I hope you never change. Every time, I come across a comment of yours, I feel happy. Seeing someone neutral(aligning himself with God) and not spewing ignorant/emotional comments, it makes me feel hopeful for this ummah. Thank you, for your insight in Islam and commenting for behalf of us ignorant muslims. Thank you for guiding people to Allah.

JazakAllah khair for your very kind words brother, but I'm just a regular person lol. InshaAllah may Allah SWT bless us all with insight and wisdom.

 

[VixR]

You have far laxer rules. We have a lot more rules to abide by. Btw you know this anyway. I am talking to you like someone who has been Gaal all their life. It was only yesterday you were sheikhad lol.

Too many rules. Another reason it’s not effective. You’re bound to sin, and repent, and sin. What does it even mean at a certain point, it’s just another day.

 

[Jaydaan]

Too many rules. Another reason it’s not effective. You’re bound to sin, and repent, and sin. What does it even mean at a certain point, it’s just another day.

So Islam was too strict for you? Does that mean you atleast have big respect for truuuly religious people who follow these rules?

 

[VixR]

So Islam was too strict for you? Does that mean you atleast have big respect for truuuly religious people who follow these rules?

Please, I’m a perfectionist, I went by the book deliberately. The way of life thing shoots itself in the foot for the truly religious. I question their quality of life. An average person would leave a lot to be desired, and that’s probably better for them than trying to be the perfect Muslim.

 

[Tukraq]

Outside religion there is no right or wrong honestly

 

[Jaydaan]

Please, I’m a perfectionist, I went by the book deliberately. The way of life thing shoots itself in the foot for the truly religious. I question their quality of life. An average person would leave a lot to be desired, and that’s probably better for them than trying to be the perfect Muslim.

So you were super religious and went by the book and your quality of life wasn’t great cause a lot of the things you desired was forbidden. Hmm interesting

 

[Omar del Sur]

you sound to me like a modern conservative muslim. Who say Hitler did nothing wrong or Jews deserved to be tortured and killed. There is a reason why many people do not want to confine themselves in a religious box. YOU are the reason, you are making Islam look worse than Nazi ideology. Spouting dumb shit. You are the evil in our mist, and should be mentally evaluated. You are why many people dont call themselves muslims. They dont want to be associated with dumb Cult follower like you.

You are told to bark, you bark. Where does your Islamic views come from. Right from the anus of your other cult followers. You ate shit, so stop barking. Its spewing all over the image of Islam. You are an indoctrinated dog. Never allowed to think critically. Your views are not your own, its the view of many muslim cult followers.

So believing Christians and Jews are kuffar means I'm Hitler and evil?

Strange view. Also, there is nothing wrong with being conservative.