Bantus

[Timo Jareer and proud]

Afro Asiatic

Afro Asatic

 

[land owner]

kkk I know Bantus are from farther away but we are not even from this continent, unlike Bantu.

Everyone originates from Africa

 

[Timo Jareer and proud]

Everyone originates from Africa

Say Wallahi

 

[land owner]

Say Wallahi

Wallahi my negus everybody is african

 

[Grant]

I suggest you throw this thread into the qashin because everything he says is qashin and unacademic.

I don't believe you have read widely enough in southern Somali history to have concocted the false Somali history pages on Wikipedia by yourself. But you have certainly been their most exposed user on this site. I notice that some of the most egregiously false material in the base Geledi article has disappeared since I have been complaining and providing evidence, but there is still plenty of false material there, as I demonstrated in the thread

.https://www.somalispot.com/threads/yusuf-and-ahmad.48176/#post-1320180

IMO you owe an abject apology to me and the many future Somalis who will have to deal with these false issues as they are exposed later.

Much of Geeljire Madaxweyne's source for that ridiculous video on the Somalis vs the Portuguese is from Abdurahman Abdullahi (Baadiyow), right around page 61 of Making Sense of Somali History, Vol I. Baadiyow references Sidney Welch on page 61, which is the right reference, but then goes on to confuse Mir Ali with Suleiman the Magnificent, attributing that great sultan's 1564 expedition to Aceh to Mir Ali and otherwise confusing the issues. In surprising point of fact, the Wiki article on Mir Ali Beg follows Welch closely and is easily accessible, where the original book is expensive and difficult to come by. In the 1580s the Ottoman Porte was staying out of the Indian Ocean, as it was hoarding it's strength against a rising Persian threat.

Mir Ali was a Mediterranean pirate, using European galleys, who was recruited by three Ottoman Pashas for a private expedition to explore involving the English, French and Venetians, who were also fighting the Portuguese and Spanish, in a war to reopen the China trade through the Red Sea, which the Ottomans did control. This was not an Ottoman Porte expedition, and Murid III was kept carefully misinformed.

The Somali contribution to the first raid, in 1585, was a number of small, rudderless boats called pangaios, probably used in Mogadishu as lighters, local fishing boats, or for personal use to travel short distance along the coast. They were not intended for off-shore travel. It must have been less than twenty, as Mir Ali had several, captured several and returned to Mog with 23. This was the successful raid on Lamu that was later claimed for the Geledi. It was successful only because the resident Shaykh, who had been a a sworn ally of the Portuguese, turned the former Governor of the Melindi warehouses, who was then on his way to India with his retirement savings, over to Mir Ali. But this raid did not raise enough to finance a second raid, which was eventually financed by voluntary contributions from Mogadishu merchants and forced contributions from Baraawe, which had learned its lesson in 1506, and later co-existed with the Portuguese for over 200 years.

The Portuguese had a Galleon stationed at their fort at Bandel, 12 miles north of Mogadishu, an intelligence officer named Ginis at Baraawe, fleets at Goa and Melindi, and the cooperation of most of the East African ports, most of which were Shia.

Mir Ali was spotted as he entered the Indian Ocean in January of 1589 and the Fleet in Goa was sent to respond. The Portuguese cornered Mir Ali at Mombassa, burned the town because it resisted, and captured Mir Ali and all his surviving men and ships. He ended up a Catholic in Lisbon. This last phase of the "Somali-Ottoman" war against the Portuguese lasted less than three months.

Note that Welch states outright that Baraawe was a republic not under the Ajuraan or protected by them. And that the Mogadisho merchants were the ones financing Mir Ali's efforts. The Ajuraan are not mentioned, not even appearing in Welch's index. They are also unknown in any archive outside the Horn, not even appearing in the records left in Egypt or Turkey.

You should not be taken in by Baadiyow. Those who misrepresent their sources (Remember the Virginia Luling quotes?) are not to be trusted.

 

[Factz]

I don't believe you have read widely enough in southern Somali history to have concocted the false Somali history pages on Wikipedia by yourself. But you have certainly been their most exposed user on this site. I notice that some of the most egregiously false material in the base Geledi article has disappeared since I have been complaining and providing evidence, but there is still plenty of false material there, as I demonstrated in the thread

.https://www.somalispot.com/threads/yusuf-and-ahmad.48176/#post-1320180

IMO you owe an abject apology to me and the many future Somalis who will have to deal with these false issues as they are exposed later.

Much of Geeljire Madaxweyne's source for that ridiculous video on the Somalis vs the Portuguese is from Abdurahman Abdullahi (Baadiyow), right around page 61 of Making Sense of Somali History, Vol I. Baadiyow references Sidney Welch on page 61, which is the right reference, but then goes on to confuse Mir Ali with Suleiman the Magnificent, attributing that great sultan's 1564 expedition to Aceh to Mir Ali and otherwise confusing the issues. In surprising point of fact, the Wiki article on Mir Ali Beg follows Welch closely and is easily accessible, where the original book is expensive and difficult to come by. In the 1580s the Ottoman Porte was staying out of the Indian Ocean, as it was hoarding it's strength against a rising Persian threat.

Mir Ali was a Mediterranean pirate, using European galleys, who was recruited by three Ottoman Pashas for a private expedition to explore involving the English, French and Venetians, who were also fighting the Portuguese and Spanish, in a war to reopen the China trade through the Red Sea, which the Ottomans did control. This was not an Ottoman Porte expedition, and Murid III was kept carefully misinformed.

The Somali contribution to the first raid, in 1585, was a number of small, rudderless boats called pangaios, probably used in Mogadishu as lighters, local fishing boats, or for personal use to travel short distance along the coast. They were not intended for off-shore travel. It must have been less than twenty, as Mir Ali had several, captured several and returned to Mog with 23. This was the successful raid on Lamu that was later claimed for the Geledi. It was successful only because the resident Shaykh, who had been a a sworn ally of the Portuguese, turned the former Governor of the Melindi warehouses, who was then on his way to India with his retirement savings, over to Mir Ali. But this raid did not raise enough to finance a second raid, which was eventually financed by voluntary contributions from Mogadishu merchants and forced contributions from Baraawe, which had learned its lesson in 1506, and later co-existed with the Portuguese for over 200 years.

The Portuguese had a Galleon stationed at their fort at Bandel, 12 miles north of Mogadishu, an intelligence officer named Ginis at Baraawe, fleets at Goa and Melindi, and the cooperation of most of the East African ports, most of which were Shia.

Mir Ali was spotted as he entered the Indian Ocean in January of 1589 and the Fleet in Goa was sent to respond. The Portuguese cornered Mir Ali at Mombassa, burned the town because it resisted, and captured Mir Ali and all his surviving men and ships. He ended up a Catholic in Lisbon. This last phase of the "Somali-Ottoman" war against the Portuguese lasted less than three months.

Note that Welch states outright that Baraawe was a republic not under the Ajuraan or protected by them. And that the Mogadisho merchants were the ones financing Mir Ali's efforts. The Ajuraan are not mentioned, not even appearing in Welch's index. They are also unknown in any archive outside the Horn, not even appearing in the records left in Egypt or Turkey.

You should not be taken in by Baadiyow. Those who misrepresent their sources (Remember the Virginia Luling quotes?) are not to be trusted.

Didn't read your garbage and you're not a historian so you are in no place to vehemently deny other historians who have PHD in Horn history. Stay in your place old man and troll somewhere else.

You're known as the revisionist troll on this forum and many people thank me for debunking you.

 

[EDsomali]

I think Bantus reached the Small strip in southeastern Somalia sometime between the 7-9 century AD through the Swahili slave trade.

They certainly aren't indigenous to Somalia if that is what you are suggesting @Grant and probably displaced some proto Somali speakers in that area

 

[Grant]

I think Bantus reached the Small strip in southeastern Somalia sometime between the 7-9 century AD through the Swahili slave trade.

They certainly aren't indigenous to Somalia if that is what you are suggesting @Grant and probably displaced some proto Somali speakers in that area

Nobody is claiming the Bantus are indigenous, but 7th-9th century may be late for the first settlers. 9th and 10th century Bantu pottery has been found at a village site at Gezira, north of Mogadishu. Several sites corresponding to Shungwaya have now been identified. The Bantu capital moved as the mouth of the Jubba moved.

The Sabaki- speaking removal from Somalia began arriving in Kenya about 1440, as Oromo and Somali clans began moving into the interriver area from the west and north. These are the modern Pokomo, Giriama and Mijikenda, and others, in Kenya. Other groups moved up the rivers and into areas not usable by the nomads because of tsetse. These are the modern Gabawiin, Shabelli, Makaane and Shidley, etc., who did not arrive in Somalia as slaves.

There was a period in the 1990s when some researchers doubted the Shungwaya traditions as myth. But the orthodox version is now back to Thomas Spear's 1978 explication. (item 4 above.)

Those who refuse to read are worthy of their ignorance.

 

[Apollo]

The Shabelle Bantus are former Bantu slaves from Mogadishu (a port where slaves were bought and sold) who simply moved up the river.

The Jubba Bantus are former Bantu slaves from Kismaayo (a port where slaves were bought and sold) and simply moved up the river.

Only on the Tana river (which is Kenya, not Somalia) did Bantus naturally migrate there. NOT in Somalia.

 

[Grant]

You may continue your Bantu derailments here.

There seem to be issues over who is derailing whom. It is my understanding that the OP cannot derail a thread.

I have spent the last two years collecting those sources most quoted by the mainstream authors. Many are not available, or only partially available, online. Some are downright expensive and difficult to come by.

I will be opening a number of topics, this being one, over the next several weeks. I hope I am provided the same derailment protection provided here to others but denied me in the past.

 

[Apollo]

There seem to be issues over who is derailing whom. It is my understanding that the OP cannot derail a thread.

I have spent the last two years collecting those sources most quoted by the mainstream authors. Many are not available, or only partially available, online. Some are downright expensive and difficult to come by.

I will be opening a number of topics, this being one, over the next several weeks. I hope I am provided the same derailment protection provided here to others but denied me in the past.

Nobody believes your fake news.

 

[Grant]

Nobody believes your fake news.

You also have an agenda.

Enough folks have seen my evidence that some of the most outrageously false material on Wikipedia has already disappeared. And I haven't even been active there, YET. See my response to "Factz" above.

The rest of that post, before you edited it, just showed how very little you know about me.

 

[madaxweyne]

[

You also have an agenda.

Enough folks have seen my evidence that some of the most outrageously false material on Wikipedia has already disappeared. And I haven't even been active there, YET. See my response to "Factz" above.

The rest of that post, before you edited it, just showed how very little you know about me.

you accuse us of somaale supremacy

while you deny actual evidences and sources of Somalis destroying the Portuguese empires attempts at trying to conquer the ajuraan let me tell you something if the Portuguese defeated ajuraan then somalia would have been a Portuguese colony

but clearly this didn't happened and their is a reason why multiple sources confirm this
i think its fair enough to say that your the an actual white supremacist who looks down on somalis

 

[Grant]

Nobody believes your fake news.

This photo was taken 7-1-1966 at Taleex. The large man to the left is Police General Abshir, who was our host. Moving right, the first lady is Abby Thomas. Amina Nuur of Buloxaar, who at one time owned 60 hal of the Makahilli herd. She taught English at Buloxaar, consulted for the UN in the 1980s, and was an observer at the most recent Somaliland elections. The next lady, needing help holding the flag, is Virginia Shine, who married Dr Mahamuud Jama, Sifir, who later became Somaliland Envoy to Kenya. The next one is me, helping Virgina. The last person to the right is John Johnson, Heelo, who worked with Mussa Galaal, and established the Somali collection at Indiana State University. Not present here, but also a Volunteer I corresspond with, is David Laitin, Professor Emeritus in Political Science, with a specialty in Somali politics, at Stanford.

I have been seriously studying Somali history since joining Somnet in 2005.

The recent DNA studies, incomplete as they are, do not yet begin to cover a fraction of.it.

 

[Grant]

[
you accuse us of somaale supremacy

while you deny actual evidences and sources of Somalis destroying the Portuguese empires attempts at trying to conquer the ajuraan let me tell you something if the Portuguese defeated ajuraan then somalia would have been a Portuguese colony

but clearly this didn't happened and their is a reason why multiple sources confirm this
i think its fair enough to say that your the an actual white supremacist who looks down on somalis

The Portuguese were aware when the Hiraab killed the Muzzaffar Governor and the Abgal Imam took over the customs in Shingani about 1625. I have not yet seen anything that would indicate they were even aware the Hiraab killed the last Ajuraan Imam at Ceel Cawl shortly after. There is no record of the Ajuraan anywhere outside of the Horn or that the Portuguese even knew they existed.

The Portuguese had garrisons at Socotra and Melindi. After Mir Ali's raid on Lamu in 1585, the Portuguese king authorized the tributes from Baraawe and Lamu to be used to establish a fort with a galleon and support ships at Bandel, 12 miles north of Mog, The Portuguese also kept an intelligence officer at Baraawe, but the main fleets were at Melindi and Goa and it is clear from the results that those ports were able to react sufficiently quickly to reports from the outposts.

The Portuguese considered everything north of Mogadishu to be desert. In the late 16th century, and especially from 1600-1800, repeated droughts and rinderpest infections in the Shabelli valley meant there was very little trade reaching the coast. The Portuguese were content with what they could draw off from Marka and Baraawe and blockading the rest. They didn't feel they needed the agravation.

 

[Grant]

Grant is going on a internet jihad against somali wiki waiting for it to say somalia belongs to bantus with a source linking back to one of his blogs.

Yes, I have been equipping myself for Jihad. No, I will not be saying Bantus own all of Somalia, nor will I be using blogs. The Sabaki-speakers cleared the coastal strip, making it safe for livestock herders because it eliminated the tsetse. Then, about 1440 pressure from Oromo coming in from the west and Somali clans from the north pushed the Bantu off these desirable lands, either south of the Tana or up the rivers into tsetse infested forested areas not suitable for use by the nomads.

The coastal Bantus abandoned their lands. It is the Gabawiin, Shabelli, Makaane, Shidle. etc , who stayed, resettling on lands the Samaales could not use, who deserve to stay on those lands, at least the ones they have held and farmed for generations.

The Gosha and Mushunguli are a different story. They were enslaved after 1800, escaped to the forests of the Jubba, defeated the Aweer and Warday, established the Sultanate of the Gosha, defeated the combined forces of the Ogaden west of the Jubba, made treaties with the Tunni and Baraawa, the British and the Zanzibari Sultanate. They were only defeated by the Italians.

Here are the land arrangements as they existed in 1977:

 

[Grant]

stopr redirecting me to your replay to libaxandheer, you literally called @Factz disgusting and said he was giving you hsitorical sources by phd hsitorians and called it novels, while you attempted to redirect him to a novel on a blog site


even yorue replay to @Libaaxseendheer whoes original argument was that bantus are not native to somalia , you responded by admitting that bantus colonized east africa , admitting to the bantu expansion by default which you attempted to argue against

:siilaanyolaugh: grantz you realy are one lying historical revisionist with an anti somali agenda no do us a favor and rot in youre old care home

Pardon me if I have you two confused. At the moment I am more concerned with the issues than the names. Your arguments do seem similar. Are you also too lazy to check Falsy's link?

Falsy claims the Bantu never crossed the Tana, which the archaeological evidence and oral traditions definitely contradict. He and others also state all the Bantu arrived in Somalia as slaves, which is also definitely false.

Falsy also claims the Ajuraan were allied to the Ottoman's. To make this claim he needs to find archival references in Turkey, which, so far, no one has been able to do. His quotes from Baadiyow are false distortions of Sidney Welch, and have no validity. His most recent source IS A Novel. As I demonstrated above, his claim his quote on the Ajuraan was on page 25 of Welch, is pure prevarication.

I have been through all of this on here before. Repetition is not going to change minds, so I am not going to get into it.

Wait for the OP posts.

 

[Grant]

You just admitted bantus colonised the horn you old fool how does this prove they were . their before you don't make any sense you alzheirmers patient :siilaanyolaugh:

You are claiming victory much too early.

The Bantus made it from the Nigeria/Cameroon border. The V32 Somalis made it from the north-eastern Sudan.. T1a is mysterious, but likely came most directly from the Red Sea Hills, long before the V32. None of the typically Samaale haplotypes are native.

Falsy claims to have read The Invention of Somalia, edited by Ali Jimale Ahmed. Both of you should either read or review Christopher Ehret in it: "The Eastern Horn of Africa, 1000 B.C. to 1400 A.D.: the Historical Roots", pages 233-262. His maps, showing the progression from Hunter-gatherers to proto-peoples, to the Maxaa migrations south, should be enlightening, but it does take an unbiased mind.

FYI Ehret shows the Pwani Bantu on the Shabelli coastal plain beginning in the 2nd century and possibly still there in the 8th when Jiddu, proto-Garee, proto-Maay and proto-Maxaa were beginning to move in. The village site at Gezira (Chittick and also Allen) has 8th-9th century Bantu pottery, so the proto-Maxaa migrations south are contemporaneous or come later. The Northern clans only form in the 12th-13th centuries. Ehret's 1400 AD map still shows the "Swahili" north of the Tana. You are aware that both Bajunni and Barwani are Swahili languages?

The other end of this is that the Kenyans say the Sabaki-speakers only arrived in Kenya from Shungwaya beginning about 1440, so the archaeology in the South clearly needs to be expanded. But It also suggests the proto-Samaale groups were small, since it took so much time for their populations to grow before they and the Oromo exerted enough pressure on the Bantus to make them leave.

More of this in the OP post that is coming.

 

[Grant]

have you checked the cushitic peoples page ?
christopher ehret only identified Caucasian medataranians a people sometimes referred to as neolithic farmers aka cushitic afro asiatic peoples which Somalis are a part of as the makeers of the Savannah pastoral neolithic in kenya and the nilotic elmantian culture in Kenya as well ,
no mention of bantus by ehret

we made it all the way to Kenya from north-east Sudan , :siilaanyolaugh:

Ali Jimale Ahmed editor; Christopher Ehret, pages 238-239:

"From the south, following routes that passed through the immediate hinterland of the Kenya coast, came small Bantu-speaking communities, probably as early as the first century A.D. These Pwani people, as we can call them, formed a northern offshoot of the much wider expansions of the Mashariki Bantu ("Eastern Bantu") underway at the turn of the era. Skilled in an agriculture adapted to moist, wooded country and accustomed to clearing back forest for their fields, they were first and foremost attracted to the then forested bottomlands of ;the Jubba and Shabelle rivers. Such areas, avoided as they had been by the earlier Dahaloan herders and farmers, lay open to immediate and unimpeded agricultural settlement.The Pwani brought with them the vigorous drum-based percussive styles of music that came widely to be adopted by later interriverine communities.

At about the same time, two other movements, both involving Eastern Omo-Tana peoples, pressed into the riverine region from the west. In each instance the immigrant communities apparently passed across the dry, hot belt of land lying between the Ethiopian highlands and Luuq, moving from the upper Jubba watershed, with its adequate rains, eastward into the areas of similar rainfall, although higher temperatures, between the lower Jubba and Shabelle rivers. One set of communities spoke the dialect of the proto-Genale language that was to develop into the present-day Jiddu tongue. The other new settlers spoke a dialect of the Dawo language for which we may propose the name proto-Doy (previously Soomaali-II), after the local modern word for the kind of inferior soils (doy) on which their animals may initially have been grazed. The two groupings of Eastern Omo-Tana peoples, it can thus be argued, took up settlement in quite different environments."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So those early clans took up residence in Somalia at the same time as the Bantu. Of course the Dahaloans were Southern Cushites who moved south out of the area. The herders and the Bantus did not compete because the herders could not utilize the tsetse-infested forested areas. As the Bantu cleared those areas, they became useless to the tsetse and useful to the herders, who took it over. This, plus the Oromo raids from the west in;the 15th century, are probably what drove the Sabaki-speakers south and up the rivers.

Now, I have an actual life and I would like to save something for the OP post. Let's give it a rest.

.

 

[Grant]

It doesn't matter. Cushites lived in East Africa before Bantus. So ancient Neolithic MENA ancestry is more native to the Horn than West African is.

Why are you so afraid of reading Ehret? I am guessing it is because you realize the linguistic evidence is stacked miles high against your agenda of dismissing the Minority accomplishments and land claims.

The Pwani Bantu entered Somalia in the first century A.D., after the Southern Cushites who were just leaving, but at the same time as the proto-Genale language that became Jiddu, and the proto-Doy language that became Tunni and Garee..

In the eighth century A.D., by the time proto-Maxaa reached the Shabelle coastal plain from the north, , the proto Maay, proto Jiddu, and proto-Jubba//Tunni where also in the area, possibly also with the proto-Garee and the Pwani, who may not have yet moved up the rivers. The Sabaki speakers were south of the Jubba but must have been moving north as the 8th-9th century village site at Gezira has their typical pottery.

So the Samaales were still protos when the Bantu entered Somalia, and the hunter-gatherers still inhabited most of the north.