Bantus

[Fiidmeer]

Why are you so afraid of reading Ehret? I am guessing it is because you realize the linguistic evidence is stacked miles high against your agenda of dismissing the Minority accomplishments and land claims.

View attachment 74561


The Pwani Bantu entered Somalia in the first century A.D., after the Southern Cushites who were just leaving, but at the same time as the proto-Genale language that became Jiddu, and the proto-Doy language that became Tunni and Garee..

View attachment 74563

In the eighth century A.D., by the time proto-Maxaa reached the Shabelle coastal plain from the north, , the proto Maay, proto Jiddu, and proto-Jubba//Tunni where also in the area, possibly also with the proto-Garee and the Pwani, who may not have yet moved up the rivers. The Sabaki speakers were south of the Jubba but must have been moving north as the 8th-9th century village site at Gezira has their typical pottery.

So the Samaales were still protos when the Bantu entered Somalia, and the hunter-gatherers still inhabited most of the north.

So all in all you've just proven @Apollo's case.

 

[Lord Flacko]

your agenda of dismissing the Minority accomplishments and land claims.

His name is Grant, and he spends his free time fighting injustices against minority accomplishments and land claims




by using vague and incorrect sources





on a Somali forum





talking about 2000+ year old injustices

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Grant]

So all in all you've just proven @Apollo's case.

You seem to be missing the point that the herders did not move into the river banks or coastal plain until the Bantu had eliminated the tsetse by clearing the land.

Did you also miss the language sequence and the transition from Lowland Eastern Cushitic, through several separate languages, to Maxaa ?

No. I did not prove Apollo's point.

 

[Grant]

His name is Grant, and he spends his free time fighting injustices against minority accomplishments and land claims




by using vague and incorrect sources





on a Somali forum





talking about 2000+ year old injustices

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I am not describing 2000 year old injustices. I am describing two thousand year old facts that prove all of the Bantus did not arrive as slaves after 1800. There were at least two Bantu migrations, the Pwani and the Sabaki, that crossed under their own steam into Somalia and left archaeological traces and descendants. These are being lumped with the chattel slaves brought from southeastern Africa after 1800 by the Omanis, in order right now to justify denying them the vote and pushing them off lands they have farmed for generations, if not millenia.

Catherine Besteman, who studied the Jubba valley populations intensely in the 1980's, wrote this in 1999

Unraveling Somalia page 53:

"Prior to the widespread purchase of slaves, Somali pastoralists and some Shabeelle valley cultivators (Somali-speakers) attached themselves as corporate groups to (or were forced into submission by) Somali pastoral clans, creating what Cassanelli (1982:163-65, 1988:314) calls client relationships. The "client-cultivator" groups (1982; 1988) retained separate and clear rights to the land they worked, were represented in clan councils by elders in the pastoral clans to which they gave allegiance, participated in Somali warfare, and were entitled to a certain portion of blood compensation. Despite their economic autonomy, however, "client cultivator" groups "could not easily renounce their "client" status, since it rested on a position of perceived social as well as political inferiority. ...The division of labor (between client cultivators and pastoralists) was reinforced by an ideology of social superiority/inferiority and sanctioned by the language of corporate kinship."

It is only the current injustices that need concern you.

 

[Grant]

The Shabelle Bantus are former Bantu slaves from Mogadishu (a port where slaves were bought and sold) who simply moved up the river.

The Jubba Bantus are former Bantu slaves from Kismaayo (a port where slaves were bought and sold) and simply moved up the river.

Only on the Tana river (which is Kenya, not Somalia) did Bantus naturally migrate there. NOT in Somalia.

No.

Cassanelli: 1982:150:

"By the start of the 19th century, the upper Shabeele River served as a rough dividing line between two long-distance caravan networks in ;the Somali Peninsula: the one whose trade flowed northward through Harar or Dhagaxbuur in the Ogaadeen to the ports of Seylac (Zeila), Bullaxaar, and Berbera on the Gulf of Aden, and the other whose routes terminated at the Benaadir towns of Muqdishso, Marka and Baraawe. "

The name "Kismaayo" is Bajuni Tikulu for "northern port" and was their last settlement at the northern end of a chain of settlements on the islands and near-shore coast of southern Somalia and Kenya, south of the Jubba. In the 19th century it was a recent settlement, from after the period of Sabaki Bantu habitation that ended in the early 15th century. Notice the word "Sabaki" in this Wiki entry:
"Bajuni dialect - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bajuni_dialectLanguage family · Niger–Congo · Atlantic–Congo · Benue–Congo · Bantoid · Bantu · Northeast Coast Bantu · Sabaki · Swahili. Bajuni. Language codes. ISO 639-3, –. Glottolog · baju1245 · Guthrie code. G.41. Bajuni (Kibajuni), also known as Tikulu (Tikuu), is a variety of Swahili spoken by the Bajuni ..."

The Kismaayo of the Bajuni was a small fishing village on the island that became Kismaayo port in 1966. Guillain (Documents 3:173) says northern somalis from Berbera began visiting Baraawe for trade by at least 1847. One wealthy merchant got permission from Sultan Said of Zanzibar to
create a grain entrepot at Munghia, but was sabotaged by Sultan Yusuf of Geledi, who wanted that port and trade for himself. "In the years that followed (Cassanelli 82:180), increasing numbers of traders from Hobya and Majeerteenia came in dhows to Marka and to the new town in Kismaayo"

Sultan Barghash of Zanzibar put Kismaayo on the map when he established a garrison there in either 1872 or 1881. The sources vary.

Look up the Gosha Sultanate and Nassib Bundo for yourself. Also the East African slave trade and the Zanzibari Sultanate. I don't want you thinking I am putting you on.

There were still some Bantu, either Pwani or Sabaki, in the Jubba river valley when escaped slaves began arriving from the plantations in the Lower Shabeele valley about 1836. They had early fights with the Warday and Aweer, but soon reached peaceful living arrangements.. By 1890 they were sufficiently united and large in numbers they were able to defeat the combined Ogaden clans west of the Jubba. The Gosha Sultanate under Nassib Bundo ruled from Yontoy to Sakow on the Jubba and had treaties with the British, (who freed slaves taken off ships in the Indian Ocean there), the Sultans of Zanzibar, the Tunni, Baraawe and the Biimaal. Until the Italians, the Gosha controlled the Lower Jubba above Yontoy.

There were no slave plantations on the Jubba and no significant slave market at Kismaayo. The bulk of the slaves were landed at Baraawe, Marka and Muqdisho, near the plantations, which were in the Shabeele valley.

 

[Cam]

Bantu's are not native to Somalia but they are now part and parcel of the nation. We must treat them and other minorities equally or we will deal with even more problems. We are cursed due to our own ignorance and evil behaviour.

 

[Grant]

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/...i-deleting-somali-hsitory.62433/#post-1693560

Nobody believes your fake news.

The false one has once again had his fake links and made-up quotes exposed in the original version of this very thread: ( https://www.somalispot.com/threads/...i-deleting-somali-hsitory.62433/#post-1693560). It was when I exposed his fraudulent abuse of Virginia Luling's name in the fake account of Ahmad Yusuf at Lamu ( https://www.somalispot.com/threads/yusuf-and-ahmad.48176/#post-1320180), for which he had no possible reply, that he saddled me with the slander of being "anti-Somali". This is no more justified than many of his other claims.

It seems that neither you nor anyone else here has the answers to the issues I have raised. The linguistic and archaeological evidence is not convertible. If you want to claim Ajuraan-Portuguese wars you need evidence the Portuguese and Turks knew of the Ajuraan, which has so far not been found. I also once believed the Bantu never crossed the Tana, which was why I was pursuing the Arioid peoples. You did convince me most of the Negroid peoples in Somalia are Bantus, but now you need evidence the Pwani and Sabaki were never there, which the archaeology will not give you. Also, it is likely at some point that the DNA studies will be able to distinguish between Pwani-Sabaki and southeastern Bantus, say with the paleolithic components.

My news is carefully documented, unlike some folks. It is not fake news.

 

[EDsomali]

Why are you so afraid of reading Ehret? I am guessing it is because you realize the linguistic evidence is stacked miles high against your agenda of dismissing the Minority accomplishments and land claims.

View attachment 74561


The Pwani Bantu entered Somalia in the first century A.D., after the Southern Cushites who were just leaving, but at the same time as the proto-Genale language that became Jiddu, and the proto-Doy language that became Tunni and Garee..

View attachment 74563

In the eighth century A.D., by the time proto-Maxaa reached the Shabelle coastal plain from the north, , the proto Maay, proto Jiddu, and proto-Jubba//Tunni where also in the area, possibly also with the proto-Garee and the Pwani, who may not have yet moved up the rivers. The Sabaki speakers were south of the Jubba but must have been moving north as the 8th-9th century village site at Gezira has their typical pottery.

So the Samaales were still protos when the Bantu entered Somalia, and the hunter-gatherers still inhabited most of the north.

Interesting map.

I've heard about this early North to South migration of Northern Somalis before.

However, Its extremely unlikely that Hunter-Gatherers still lived in Northern Somalia at the 8th Century.

@Grant Remember, just because someone writes something in a book doesn't mean its true.

 

[Baricoast]

Interesting map.

I've heard about this early North to South migration of Northern Somalis before.

However, Its extremely unlikely that Hunter-Gatherers still lived in Northern Somalia at the 8th Century.

@Grant remember, just because someone writes something in a book doesn't mean its true.

This guy is a historical revisionist who tries his best to discredit Somali history and anything Somali. He was debunked time and time again on this forum. Don’t listen to him or buy anything he says, he’s a troll.

 

[EDsomali]

This guy is a historical revisionist who tries his best to discredit Somali history and anything Somali. He was debunked time and time again on this forum. Don’t listen to him or buy anything he says, he’s a troll.

I don't hold the same views as him in regards to Somali history.

But he does provide an interesting differing viewpoint.

 

[Grant]

Bantu's are not native to Somalia but they are now part and parcel of the nation. We must treat them and other minorities equally or we will deal with even more problems. We are cursed due to our own ignorance and evil behaviour.

May the Lord bless you, Cam. I was afraid all the non-supremicist folks had been bullied or run off the site. I am a believer in the adage that those who fail to learn their history are doomed to repeat it. I would add that those who learn a falsified history are doomed to live life on quicksand and in fear of earthquakes.

It is far better to figure out what portions of the traditional history are true, and what not. As an example, we now know that Shaykhs Darood and Issaq were probably real men, but not J1. Similar distinctions are out there in several areas. Where found, they can be valuable "revisions", and are not to be avoided.

 

[Grant]

Interesting map.

I've heard about this early North to South migration of Northern Somalis before.

However, Its extremely unlikely that Hunter-Gatherers still lived in Northern Somalia at the 8th Century.

@Grant Remember, just because someone writes something in a book doesn't mean its true.

The migration being described here was from a northern portion of the South, from a mixed Maay-Maxaa population originally further south. Compare Ehret's 5th century map:

Ali Jimale Ahmed, editor, Ehret, pages 242-243:

"500-900 AD:

In the riverine regions the expansion and differentiation of the descendant societies of the proto-Doy people entered a new stage by probably no later than about the 8th century. The prelude to these directions lay in about the 6th and the 7th centuries, when a number of Maay-Maxay groups resettled with their herds through a string of localities extending from the Banaadir coast northward along the Shabelle River, possibly as far inland as Buuloburti. Out of this new settlement arose the proto-Maxay ("Banaadir-Northern Soomaali") society, whose language was directly ancestral to the numerous modern Maxay dialects. Those Maxay-Maay communities who remained inland of the lower Shabelle River evolved into the proto-Maay, whose descendants remain so prominent in the interriverine region today."

"From the lands along the lower and middle Shabelle, the Maxay expansions progressed gradually northward, reaching as far as the highlands of the Harar and Hargeisa areas by probably the 9th to 11th centuries."

The northern clans form in the 12th-13th centuries. They combine Maxaa with Ahmar-Dharoor peoples who had long resided in the north, ..."a contact revealed in a growing adoption of North-Lowland loanwords into the Maxay dialects."

Note the Pwani Bantu on this map. The Bardale archaeological tradition, centering on Buur Heybe, extends into the "hunter-gatherer" area to the north. It is associated with the Eyle because of their distinctive pottery found at mid-Holocene depths at Buur Heybe. The Eyle are considered a Negroid people and their remains on Buur Heybe go back 20K. Look it up.

 

[CanoGeel]

The migration being described here was from a northern portion of the South, from a mixed Maay-Maxaa population originally further south. Compare Ehret's 5th century map:

View attachment 74759

Ali Jimale Ahmed, editor, Ehret, pages 242-243:

"500-900 AD:

In the riverine regions the expansion and differentiation of the descendant societies of the proto-Doy people entered a new stage by probably no later than about the 8th century. The prelude to these directions lay in about the 6th and the 7th centuries, when a number of Maay-Maxay groups resettled with their herds through a string of localities extending from the Banaadir coast northward along the Shabelle River, possibly as far inland as Buuloburti. Out of this new settlement arose the proto-Maxay ("Banaadir-Northern Soomaali") society, whose language was directly ancestral to the numerous modern Maxay dialects. Those Maxay-Maay communities who remained inland of the lower Shabelle River evolved into the proto-Maay, whose descendants remain so prominent in the interriverine region today."

"From the lands along the lower and middle Shabelle, the Maxay expansions progressed gradually northward, reaching as far as the highlands of the Harar and Hargeisa areas by probably the 9th to 11th centuries."

The northern clans form in the 12th-13th centuries. They combine Maxaa with Ahmar-Dharoor peoples who had long resided in the north, ..."a contact revealed in a growing adoption of North-Lowland loanwords into the Maxay dialects."

Note the Pwani Bantu on this map. The Bardale archaeological tradition, centering on Buur Heybe, extends into the "hunter-gatherer" area to the north. It is associated with the Eyle because of their distinctive pottery found at mid-Holocene depths at Buur Heybe. The Eyle are considered a Negroid people and their remains on Buur Heybe go back 20K. Look it up.

Waryaa @Grunt bax shaqo Yeelo or keep grunting at your suugo anthropology.

 

[Grant]

Waryaa @Grunt bax shaqo Yeelo or keep grunting at your suugo anthropology.

Iska bax! You have been reading far too much of the falsified history from Baadiyow and Wikipedia that is being manufactured and regurgitated around here. You may put it down to Bantu arrogance or story-telling, but the folks in Tanzania and Kenya have read more and more accurate history than you, and they are laughing.

https://myfreeschooltanzania.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-portuguese-at-east-african-coast.html

-------------------------------------

http://www.atikaschool.org/kcsehist...of-kenya-upto-the-19th-century-bantu-speakers

"THE COASTAL BANTU [TRACE/EXPLAIN THE ORIGIN OF THE COASTAL BANTU]

• They probably were the first Bantu people to settle in Kenya.
• Their ancestors may have moved from a dispersal point west of Lake Victoria through northern Tanzania to the area between Taita hills and Mount Kilimanjaro.
• Others such as the Mijikenda moved towards the coast, while the Chagga of Tanzania settled to the south. The Taita remained on the hills as the Mijikenda and other groups moved along the coast up to Shungwaya, which may have been somewhere between rivers Juba and Tana. The present highland Bantu moved westwards and eventually occupied their present home areas.
• The Shungwaya dispersal mainly resulted from the southward expansion of the Oromo by 1600AD. The Mijikenda groups started settling in their present home areas in the course of 1700AD. By the beginning of the 19t h century, they had settled in their present homeland. The Pokomo on the other hand moved from Shungwaya, following the river Tana. Here, they interacted with Cushites such as the Oromo and the Somali."

-------------------------------------------------------------

Much of their information comes from Swahili Origins by James de Vere Allen, from which this short synopsis was taken:

http://dspace-roma3.caspur.it/bitst..._Shungwaya, the Segeju and Somali History.pdf

It took longer than normal to locate Shungwaya because it existed at multiple sites as the mouth of the Jubba river moved.

 

[Grant]

https://myfreeschooltanzania.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-portuguese-at-east-african-coast.html

Help for the lazy. This is the map the Tanzanian school is using. Note the area controlled by the Portuguese, who had garrisons at Bandel, 12 miles north of Mog, on Socotra and Malindi, and an intelligence service based at Baraawe. Marka and Baraawe were captured by 1510 and paid tribute to Portugal until about 1758 (Mukhtar and also Welch). Cassanelli says droughts and rinderpest infestations in the Shabeele valley reduced trade reaching Mog to a trickle for the periood 1600-1800. The Poratuguese drew off most of what trade there was through Baraawe and Marka. They actually did trade with Mog, which they describe as having 70 houses on a single street called the Repuzeyra, leading to a fort. In 1614 Mogadishu..." applied to Lisbon for the charter and privileges of a town. Settlers were invited from the homeland, and about fifty more men responded with their families." ( Welch, 1950, page 45.) The Portuguese were aware when the Hiraab killed the Muzzaffar Governor, but were not aware they also killed the Ajuraan Imam. There is no indication anywhere that the Ajuraan ever attacked the Portuguese, or that either the Ottomans or the Portuguese even knew of Ajuraan existence. The pangaios, port lighters that the Muzzaffars sent with Mir Ali to Lamu in 1585, are a clear indication Mog did not have ships capable of off-shore traffic. After the capture of Mir Ali and his men and fleet in 1589, there were no further Ottoman expeditions into the Indian Ocean, which for two hundred years was a Persian/Portuguese lake. Even Mir Ali did not actually represent the Ottoman Sultan, Murad III. (Welch)


Get over the lazy and start reading.

 

[towerheist]

The Ajuuran are well known and documented. My sub clan within Sacad always lived in Gaalkacyo and the surrounding badiyo and my granduncle would tell me stories of the Ajuuran and the battle of Barawe. My uncles told of canals,wells and other structures that were built by the Ajuuran sultanate and this is in Central Somalia, let alone the South which was their stronghold and location of the capital

Southern Somalia has never been a Bantu settlement

Im starting to see the threat Bantus pose to us. These ppl seem maskiin but can easily be used by foreigners like duqaan to undermine us.

 

[Samaalic Era]

Im starting to see the threat Bantus pose to us. These ppl seem maskiin but can easily be used by foreigners like duqaan to undermine us.

There are now some Madowwayne who believe they are the rightful owners of Somalia. I heard they tried to fight Abgaal in Jowhar but got karbaashed

 

[Doctor farxaan]

Someone needs to ban this guy

 

[A_A]

Grant idk what your drinking but Bantus for the most part aren’t native to Somalia. The fact that you wanna conveniently skip around the fact that they were enslaved is big YIKES. You can put on your rose colored glasses and say that they just migrated.

Slavery is terrible, let’s not hide that. No offense ya sound like a American Southerner.

Proof? I think you can ask some Somalis from the South. Shaqo la’aan baa tahay pls find a hobby

 

[Grant]

Someone needs to ban this guy

Grant idk what your drinking but Bantus for the most part aren’t native to Somalia. The fact that you wanna conveniently skip around the fact that they were enslaved is big YIKES. You can put on your rose colored glasses and say that they just migrated.

Slavery is terrible, let’s not hide that. No offense ya sound like a American Southerner.

Proof? I think you can ask some Somalis from the South. Shaqo la’aan baa tahay pls find a hobby

I don't know what it is about documented linguistic and archaeological data that gets you guys so worked up you fail to understand what is being said.

No one is saying the Bantu are native. The linguistic evidence is that the Pwani Bantu arrived at about the same time as the proto-Doy, the group that became the Tunni, Garee and Maay-Maxay. The Sabaki Bantu arrived later, but were in the area of the Shabelli plain, as evidenced by the mji well and village site from the 9th-10th centuries at Jezira. The remnant of these people, who stayed in Somalia, are the Madowweyn of today. Some became clients of the Ajuraan, but they were not slaves. The enslaved folks were brought by the Omanis after 1800, began escaping the Shabelli plantations before 1825 and had a significant presence in the Jubba valley by mid-century. They had coalesced under Nassib Bundo by 1875 and were strong enough to defeat the combined Ogaden clans west of the Jubba, and keep them away from the Gosha farms and villages, by 1890. They traded ivory with the Omanis for guns, and. up to the Italians, nobody was able to defeat them.

If history bothers you, try the politics and qabyalad sections. Or follow some of the "patriots" around.