Can Somalia be built on the basis of clan?

[Don]

When you find out your date is a femenist

 

[Arman]

When you find out your date is a femenist

Normal feminists are good, its the SJWs you gotta watch out for

 

[Prince of Lasanod]

Not really.

We could have some success with clan if the clan rivalries weren't so deep.

Currently it is holding back every single Federal state. Every sub sub sub sub sub clan will do what they can so that they can get their slice of the pie. It is so bad right now that even PL and SL can be considered as dysfunctional even though they enjoy more maturity and stability than other federal states.

This is because the idea of a modern state and ancestral clan lands is simply not compatible. Federalism is based on clan lines, so PL is based on "Harti" lands, Jubbaland is based on Darood lands, South West state is based on D&M lands etc. Each one of these so called federal states have their own army, their own police, their own intelligence, their own foreign policy. If you think that the divide stops at the sub clan level, then you're wrong. It goes down all the way to the sub sub sub sub sub clan level and isn't simply realistic.

I believe federalism based on the current states could be successful if it is polished up. If the boundaries between states are clearly defined, if there are mechanisms to stop states from clashing, and if government funds were distributed fairly (not necessarily equally) amongst states, that there be progress. This is assuming that all foreign influences are removed, and that all federal states have semi or fully competent leaders.

Federalism itself is not bad, but Somalis have misunderstood what federalism is. People are building clan countries within Somalia. If federalism is going to be successful, then it should not be based on qabiil, but on population. The best way to begin would be with the 18 regions of Somalia pre 1991. These would all have local governments based on development/security and their own capital city.

There may even be room for another two or three states. Perhaps an SSC state, a Waqooyiland, and Banadir state.

We can avoid problems of the past by ensuring that a central government like Barres never returns. One were all development occurs in one city, and power is held by few. This is a realistic system.

Also, this can only work if there isn't too much intra clan bs in the federal states. I am referring to the power struggles taking place in like all of them.

With this current federalism model we have now, development does all take place in one city and power is held by a few. So what exactly is the difference?

 

[Angela Davis]

You guys are pathetic. I'm sorry you feel threatened by knowledge and empowerment. Don't be scared of feeling uncomfortable around new information. It means you're learning.

Normal feminists are good, its the SJWs you gotta watch out for

 

[Codeine]

I think that somali constitution and culture needs to go through a reform. We can't keep racist, prejudiced, oppressive practices to go on and assume its hopeless. That's what these power hungry ignorant men want. We create culture and we have the power to change it. Culture is not set in stone and it's not stagnate. The Somalia of the 60's and 70's was less oppressive than the Somalia we have today. So if it could change for the worst, it can change for the better. We have to stop allowing our women from being silenced and shamed. We have to stop allowing minority groups to go on living in Somalia with no rights.

Hannah Arendt said that when we stop thinking and doing things because we are told to do them or because it's how it was always done and we don't question how ethical it is...that is when we are the most dangerous. Most evil in this world isn't done by sadistics and psychopaths...but rather by everyday people like you and I because we don't think and we accept the flaws of our country because we are told that's how it's always been. She calls this the banality of evil. Read up on it. Reality is that is a manipulation of our collective memory. It's not how it has always been and our reality can change.

My favourite quote of hers is
“When all are guilty, no one is; confessions of collective guilt are the best possible safeguard against the discovery of culprits, and the very magnitude of the crime the best excuse for doing nothing. ”
― Hannah Arendt

Somalis are guilty of this...allowing for an oppressive culture to exist where everyone is a culprit and no one is at the same time so there is no one to blame.

This is going to sound awful but progression comes in steps, Somalia can't be reformed overnight. The difference between Somalia now and the 70s is mostly economical imo. There were far less foreign influences at play and there was some form of judicial system. But as we speak there are literally people starving to death and I don't quite think minority rights are on their mind. Stability and safety > social progress. There's a reason most poor countries exhibit similar behaviour

 

[Arman]

You guys are pathetic. I'm sorry you feel threatened by knowledge and empowerment. Don't be scared of feeling uncomfortable around new information. It means you're learning.

What new information?

 

[Don]

You guys are pathetic. I'm sorry you feel threatened by knowledge and empowerment. Don't be scared of feeling uncomfortable around new information. It means you're learning.

You guys are pathetic. I'm sorry you feel threatened by knowledge and empowerment. Don't be scared of feeling uncomfortable around new information. It means you're learning.

I am trolling with u sis

 

[Angela Davis]

But the state Somalia is in is due to its unethical corrupt practices. Stability and safety arises from abiding by human rights..not putting money in some random man's pockets. The people most affected by the famine are the poorest, most marginalized people. The root cause of their instability comes from their oppression. Denying their oppression will lead to the same bullshit happening over and over again.

This is going to sound awful but progression comes in steps, Somalia can't be reformed overnight. The difference between Somalia now and the 70s is mostly economical imo. There were far less foreign influences at play and there was some form of judicial system. But as we speak there are literally people starving to death and I don't quite think minority rights are on their mind. Stability and safety > social progress. There's a reason most poor countries exhibit similar behaviour

 

[Angela Davis]

The famine isn't natural...it's man made.

This is going to sound awful but progression comes in steps, Somalia can't be reformed overnight. The difference between Somalia now and the 70s is mostly economical imo. There were far less foreign influences at play and there was some form of judicial system. But as we speak there are literally people starving to death and I don't quite think minority rights are on their mind. Stability and safety > social progress. There's a reason most poor countries exhibit similar behaviour

 

[$$$$]

This is because the idea of a modern state and ancestral clan lands is simply not compatible. Federalism is based on clan lines, so PL is based on "Harti" lands, Jubbaland is based on Darood lands, South West state is based on D&M lands etc. Each one of these so called federal states have their own army, their own police, their own intelligence, their own foreign policy. If you think that the divide stops at the sub clan level, then you're wrong. It goes down all the way to the sub sub sub sub sub clan level, it's simply NOT realistic.

I said the divide starts at the very top, and goes to the very bottom. Hence the inability of PL and SL to make significant progress these last 25 years, despite the relative stability the two states have enjoyed. They are only starting to make progress today.

I don't believe we should just scrap everything and start over, and I don't believe it is possible. Are they going to accept this 18 state system, and are you willing to fight them for it?

With this current federalism model we have now, development does all take place in one city and power is held by a few. So what exactly is the difference?

I was referring to the supreme authority the Barre admin (not comparable to this gov. in any respect), and their policy for concentrating most development/infrastructure/services in Mogadishu. Back in the day most hospitals, universities, and government services (passports, liscenses etc) were located in Mogadishu. This is not the case today, and we will probably never see the return of it.

There would be no development in Mogadishu that would benefit the civilians today had it not been for the extremely generous Turkish funded and implemented projects (they renovated the port, many hospitals and schools). If I am not mistaken it is part of Turkey's policy not the FG.

 

[Prince of Lasanod]

I said the divide starts at the very top, and goes to the very bottom. Hence the inability of PL and SL to make significant progress these last 25 years, despite the relative stability the two states have enjoyed. They are only starting to make progress today.

I don't believe we should just scrap everything and start over, and I don't believe it is possible. Are they going to accept this 18 state system, and are you willing to fight them for it?



I was referring to the supreme authority the Barre admin (not comparable to this gov. in any respect), and their policy for concentrating most development/infrastructure/services in Mogadishu. Back in the day most hospitals, universities, and government services (passports, liscenses etc) were located in Mogadishu. This is not the case today, and we will probably never see the return of it.

There would be no development in Mogadishu that would benefit the civilians today had it not been for the extremely generous Turkish funded and implemented projects (they renovated the port, many hospitals and schools). If I am not mistaken it is part of Turkey's policy not the FG.

The Somali people can vote for it in a referendum and if these so called federal states such as Puntland reject(after the population vote no for federalism) then we can fight them with the SNA as rebels after it's rebuilt and Al Shabab is defeated.

 

[Codeine]

But the state Somalia is in is due to its unethical corrupt practices. Stability and safety arises from abiding by human rights..not putting money in some random man's pockets. The people most affected by the famine are the poorest, most marginalized people. The root cause of their instability comes from their oppression. Denying their oppression will lead to the same bullshit happening over and over again.

Their oppression of who? Women? Minorities? Say the poorest faction somehow managed to turn in into a post-qabil/sexist society.. what exactly would that change? The people in charge would still be in charge and still get voted in. The ADULT literacy rate of Somalia is less than 40%. There's no point in voting if you don't know wtf is going on. As for the famine, it has always been around and any half decent country would've taken enough action to prevent it from happening. But Somalia is in perpetual conflict because you're asking people who don't know better to do better.

We need to do it like every other country on earth has done it.

 

[$$$$]

The Somali people can vote for it in a referendum and if these so called federal states such as Puntland reject(after the population vote no for federalism) then we can fight them with the SNA as rebels after it's rebuilt and Al Shabab is defeated.

Take it easy with the anti-PL rhetoric abti. kkkkkk. Your coming across as an emotional wreck.

 

[MadNomad]

You don't OWN somalia and trust me when I say all these uneducated somali men running the country...their time is limited.

HSM, Silanyo, Abdiweli and Farmajo all had some form of higher education, so clearly lack of education isint the main issue here. The rampant corruption, clan politics and terrorism is what is getting in the way of progress.

 

[Angela Davis]

A Masters of Arts from University of Buffalo is not a higher form of education. I'm sorry. An MA doesn't teach you how to run a country. They aren't educated in human rights, women's rights and basic economic needs of a country.

HSM, Silanyo, Abdiweli and Farmajo all had some form of higher education, so clearly lack of education isint the main issue here. The rampant corruption, clan politics and terrorism is what is getting in the way of progress.

 

[Angela Davis]

The change starts with the racist and misogynist beliefs of those in charge. There needs to be a new liberation philosophy where people are educated of their rights. The masses need to know they are in charge not one or two men in power.

Their oppression of who? Women? Minorities? Say the poorest faction somehow managed to turn in into a post-qabil/sexist society.. what exactly would that change? The people in charge would still be in charge and still get voted in. The ADULT literacy rate of Somalia is less than 40%. There's no point in voting if you don't know wtf is going on. As for the famine, it has always been around and any half decent country would've taken enough action to prevent it from happening. But Somalia is in perpetual conflict because you're asking people who don't know better to do better.

We need to do it like every other country on earth has done it.

 

[Bahal]

Yes.

Economic development will destroy qabiil.

 

[Coulombs law]

A Masters of Arts from University of Buffalo is not a higher form of education. I'm sorry. An MA doesn't teach you how to run a country. They aren't educated in human rights, women's rights and basic economic needs of a country.

OUCH, throwing the shade eh ?

 

[Angela Davis]

I'm not trying to throw shade. I'm being honest. Maybe the somali community can be manipulated into believing the BS, but I have yet to see a single president who ranthe country after the war as worthy of actually running the country. They just don't have the skill set to do so.

OUCH, throwing the shade eh ?

 

[MadNomad]

They aren't educated in human rights, women's rights and basic economic needs of a country.

Right, one can be educated in these things and still fail. Somalia will go nowhere until corruption and clan politics is weeded out.