Challenge: Name me 3 positive things Siyaad Barre has done

[Periplus]

18th of May brings out the crazy in Somalis. Either secessionists start wilding out acting like it’s the 4th of July or Kacaanists double down on their nostalgic delusion.

In saying that, I am setting myself a challenge.

Name me 3 positive things Barre has done and I will try to refute them.

Because I genuinely think that Barre is given way too much credit for someone who led a country for 22 years.

 

[محمود فارح]

18th of May brings out the crazy in Somalis. Either secessionists start wilding out acting like it’s the 4th of July or Kacaanists double down on their nostalgic delusion.

In saying that, I am setting myself a challenge.

Name me 3 positive things Barre has done and I will try to refute them.

Because I genuinely think that Barre is given way too much credit for someone who led a country for 22 years.

He was not good, for all of 22, of course, but for me, his first years were 10/10. I simply see that he saved the country from corruption and Italian colonialism.
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[محمود فارح]

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This does not necessarily mean that he did not have his mistakes. We cannot ignore his killing of scholars in his final stages and his targeting of some tribes

 

[Periplus]

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This does not necessarily mean that he did not have his mistakes. We cannot ignore his killing of scholars in his final stages and his targeting of some tribes

I have looked at your sources and I do not deny the corruption of the civilian administration, despite it also being mainly occurring under the Sharmarke-Egal administration, rather than the longer-spanning Adde-Hassan administration.

Regardless, Barre's corruption is also regarded to be equally or severely corrupt in comparison.

I could point out how the reason Somalia has little to no elephants is because Barre and his goons basically poached all the elephants for its ivory, stockpiling it in Mogadishu, to such an extent that an American diplomat stated that the supply in the warehouses could collapse the global legal ivory trade.

I could point how Somalia received a free oil refinery from Arab OPEC nations in order to cheaply produce petrol for domestic use. Then the Barre used that refinery to sell refined petrol to apartheid South Africa, breaking international law and making the Arab nations that gave Somalia cheap petrol unknowingly complicit.

I could point out the corrupt appointments in the politburo, I could point out the corrupt nature of scholarships provided. It is a well known fact that by the 1980s, Somalia was an extremely corrupt place, with an immense wealth disparity.

As for Italian colonisation, Barre was quite literally in support of Italian colonisation until 1990 and was against Somalia obtaining independence in 1960. He was part of a political party that lobbied the UN for continued colonisation. He also visited Italy as president and informed them that we appreciated colonisation.

Let me know if you want the sources walaal

 

[World]

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This does not necessarily mean that he did not have his mistakes. We cannot ignore his killing of scholars in his final stages and his targeting of some tribes

Problem is somalia is a resource poor country, and corruption was crazy pre 69. So there was basically no hope unless corruption is solved.

Then siad barre ended corruption and was successful until the failure of the ethiopian war which led siad barre to double down to hold power like a typical dictator. Because we’re so resource poor, too much resources can’t be focused on the military.

With the resources siad barre, he wasn’t that bad tbh. Compared to Gaddafi who ruled for 40 years a small population and had as much oil as gulf countries, but libya was still a shithole when they could be like UAE or Saudi. Somalia would never have improved more than Siad Barre but we would still be united.

In a scenario where somalia doesn’t have tribes or more natural resources, then standards of living would have improved for the population to tolerate dictatorship.

 

[El Nino]

You won’t find an serious answer, only apologist. This is how they think.

 

[محمود فارح]

I could point how Somalia received a free oil refinery from Arab OPEC nations in order to cheaply produce petrol for domestic use. Then the Barre used that refinery to sell refined petrol to apartheid South Africa, breaking international law and making the Arab nations that gave Somalia cheap petrol unknowingly complicit.

I could point out the corrupt appointments in the politburo, I could point out the corrupt nature of scholarships provided. It is a well known fact that by the 1980s, Somalia was an extremely corrupt place, with an immense wealth disparity.

As for Italian colonisation, Barre was quite literally in support of Italian colonisation until 1990 and was against Somalia obtaining independence in 1960. He was part of a political party that lobbied the UN for continued colonisation. He also visited Italy as president and informed them that we appreciated colonisation.

Interesting, give me the sources walaal

 

[Periplus]

Problem is somalia is a resource poor country, and corruption was crazy pre 69. So there was basically no hope unless corruption is solved.

Then siad barre ended corruption and was successful until the failure of the ethiopian war which led siad barre to double down to hold power like a typical dictator. Cos we’re too resource poor, too much resources can’t be focused on the military.

With the resources siad barre, he wasn’t that bad tbh. Compared to Gaddafi who ruled for 40 years a small population and had as much oil as gulf countries, but libya was still a shithole when they could be like UAE or Saudi.

In a scenario where somalia doesn’t have tribes or more natural resources, then standards of living would have improved for the population to tolerate dictatorship.

The Somali economy grew by roughly 50% in the decade of democracy.

Then grew approximately 90% in the decade after that.

This is how Somali economic growth looks from 1960-1990.

As you can see, GDP growth seems to be profound around 1976 onwards. This is despite most people agreeing that the economy was worse in that period. This can be attributed to inflation or increased wealth inequality, due to corruption.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

This is very easy:

The resettlement scheme following the droughts

The standardisation of the Somali script and the literacy program

A number of infrastructure projects

All of this sad, his evil greatly GREATLY outweighed any positive contributions.

He doomed himself when he killed the scholars for no reason it all went straight to hell after that

 

[Periplus]

Interesting, give me the sources walaal

Regarding ivory:

Regarding trading with South Africa:

Regarding Barre's support of continued colonisation:

Translation is that during his youth he joined the Somali Conference*, a political party which opposed the SYL and was funded by Italian plantation owners. They supported the plan of the Italian adminstration to continue colonisation for 30 years.

*Conferenza Somalo was a pro-Italian political party that used to collaborate with the colonial adminstration and would happily sabotage pro-independence activites/entities. Basically sell-outs or uncle toms.

As for the meeting in Rome where he basically praised colonisation, I can't seem to find it but it has been repeatedly shared on this site.

 

[Periplus]

This is very easy:

The resettlement scheme following the droughts

The standardisation of the Somali script and the literacy program

A number of infrastructure projects

All of this sad, his evil greatly GREATLY outweighed any positive contributions.

He doomed himself when he killed the scholars for no reason it all went straight to hell after that

The Latin script was developed during the SYL administation after a study by the Somali civilian government and UNESCO. It wasn't able to pass parliament but Barre, in having no parliament, was able to get it implemented. The SYL newspaper used a latin Somali script as early as the 1950s.

The infrastructure projects was basically money laundering for the Italian government and Italian businessmen, having little practical value at the time.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

The Latin script was developed during the SYL administation after a study by the Somali civilian government and UNESCO. It wasn't able to pass parliament but Barre, in having no parliament, was able to get it implemented. The SYL newspaper used a latin Somali script as early as the 1950s.

The infrastructure projects was basically money laundering for the Italian government and Italian businessmen, having little practical value at the time.

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Fair enough. Is there anything he actually did I knew it was bad but this is astonishing

 

[Periplus]

Fair enough. Is there anything he actually did I knew it was bad but this is astonishing

Hence my thread walaal.

There is a lot of revisionism on Barre being a productive leader.

The problem is that people share sources on the SYL being corrupt, which is true, but the sources they quote was written in the 1960s. Those sources cannot compare the SYL to Barre as it was written before the Kacaan took power. The SYL were corrupt but no where near as corrupt as Barre was.

Also the SYL was only in power of 9 years, which is always unstable for a new country. Barre had almost a quarter century and tanked the economy.

 

[محمود فارح]

Regarding ivory:

View attachment 329094

Regarding trading with South Africa:

View attachment 329095

Regarding Barre's support of continued colonisation:

View attachment 329097

Translation is that during his youth he joined the Somali Conference*, a political party which opposed the SYL and was funded by Italian plantation owners. They supported the plan of the Italian adminstration to continue colonisation for 30 years.

*Conferenza Somalo was a pro-Italian political party that used to collaborate with the colonial adminstration and would happily sabotage pro-independence activites/entities. Basically sell-outs or uncle toms.

As for the meeting in Rome where he basically praised colonisation, I can't seem to find it but it has been repeatedly shared on this site.

As for the second point, why did he do that?

 

[Periplus]

As for the second point, why did he do that?

Many people who write about Barre depict him as a shameless opportunist. He had no morals.

This anecdote about Barre should explain the type of guy he was:

 

[Farah717]

Every single paved road that Somalis still use today, thousands of kms that leads from Ras Kamboni to Zeylac was built by the great leader Siyad Barre his legacy lives on to this day.

 

[Periplus]

Every single paved road that Somalis still use today, thousands of kms that leads from Ras Kamboni to Zeylac was built by the great leader Siyad Barre his legacy lives on to this day.

Some of the paved road projects were done by the SYL and the colonial adminstration.

Also, as I have pointed earlier, those projects done under Barre were conducted by the Italian government for money laundering/corruption purposes.

 

[World]

The Somali economy grew by roughly 50% in the decade of democracy.

Then grew approximately 90% in the decade after that.

This is how Somali economic growth looks from 1960-1990.

View attachment 329092

As you can see, GDP growth seems to be profound around 1976 onwards. This is despite most people agreeing that the economy was worse in that period. This can be attributed to inflation or increased wealth inequality, due to corruption.

Somalia’s population increased by 250 % since the end of Siad Barre’s reign, but our grain production is now only 25 % what it once was. We were close to self sufficient in food production when he was overthrown. And we have famines every year now.

Final specifications of the Bardhere Dam Project were completed in 1989 and ready to be implemented, but the war occurred. The dam would have provided double Somalia’s current energy consumption. The irrigation of Juba river with the dam would have given Somalia a surplus in food production.

Healthcare, housing, education all improved significantly under Siad Barre as well due to his socialist policies. Oil concessions were given to American oil giants just before the war, they already had teams on the ground about to start. And all the factories, roads, ports, airports across Somalia built by Siad Barre.

Like i’m not sure what more someone can do? If the same was achieved through democracy, then people would call it a massive success.

We are not a rich country, but extremely poor. All odds are against us. He achieved a lot in 22 years, and set the conditions for major growth if he had another 10-15 years.

This doesn’t change the fact that Siad Barre divided Somali society permanently by using tribalism to maintain power, it doesn’t change the fact that all his benefits are worthless because he’s responsible for the collapse of the Somali state. Our culture is one where 13 year old children get executed for belonging to the wrong qabiil, where nomads spent their lives stealing the other qabiil’s camels, it’s better to step down than use tribalism to maintain power in this type of culture. If Siad Barre was Habesha and ruled Ethiopia, they would celebrate him because they lack tribalistic nomadic culture.

The struggles of Ahmed Gurey:

"Amongst the Somalis there was a tribe called Habr Magadi to whom the Imam demanded a tax. They refused, ambushed on roads and devastated the land. The Imam advanced until a place called Ra'bud - between the territory of the Muslims and the Infidels - as if he wished to march against Abyssinia, then he whirled toward the land of the Somali raiders (Habr Magadi), they fled. He continued until a day's distance to the sea, plundered their ample territory which he ravaged and then returned."

"The Imam took the matter to heart, he gathered an army and marched against the land of Somalis until he arrived at the Habr Magadi who cut roads and plundered the property of Muslims. He defeated them for a second time and took their wealth, he destroyed their cities which he reduced to ashes, then returned to his country."

 

[Farah717]

Some of the paved road projects were done by the SYL and the colonial adminstration.

Also, as I have pointed earlier, those projects done under Barre were conducted by the Italian government for money laundering/corruption purposes.

No it wasn't lol nice try for lying though. Those projects where all done by Chinese workers during the 70's and 80's. Here's the map of all paved roads in Somalia.

 

[Haragwaafi]

He was not good, for all of 22, of course, but for me, his first years were 10/10. I simply see that he saved the country from corruption and Italian colonialism.
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Ever since the kacaan came in power it wrecked the economy since they were all military men who had no knowledge of how economy works an that led to sharp increase in unemployment which led many youths to emigrate to the gulf states and in early 80s Somalia's economy became dependent on the remittances coming from the gulf states.