Can u link his work on the civilian administration?
Challenge: Name me 3 positive things Siyaad Barre has done
- Thread starter Periplus
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One I remember is called Africa's First Democrats, if I remember correctly, the free version is incomplete but still very detailed.
It is essentially a profile and a who's who of the main Somali political figures in the UN trusteeship and SYL period.
Somalis as Africa's First Democrats: Premier Abdirazak H. Hussein and President Aden A. Osman
By Abdi Ismail Samatar and Ahmed I. Samatar, Published on 11/04/08
The first 10 years of his regime Somalia was rapidly making progress , in so many different industries, education, literacy, health care, environmental protection, drought prevention, animal care, cultural/literary production, energy boost, nationwide electricity, infrastructure and manufacturing and was self sufficient in terms of food agriculture with food surpluses. The economy diversified more. Corruption was low, fiscal performance high and they had a budget surplus which they allocated to development projects. It also didn't place heavy restriction or prevent private trade or investment either and encouraged private enterprises in some sectors and built a commercial malls with dozens of shops to boost free trade , and the GNP of the economy was growing at high rate of 6%-7%. Somalia in general was safe with high security, Mogadishu was voted as a safe city. High score in sovereignty and a capable army and a navy, airforce etc.
Things only started to tumble with the introduction of IMF and World Bank structural programs introduced after the Ogaden war. Corruption also accompanied the flood of aid money they were unfamiliar with.
I have read a lot of the Somali written books on him Ahmed Samatars, even read Haji Ingriis, Said Samatars with David Latin's writings on Siad Barre and Kacaanka, the problem is that most were written in the years after the collapse , so they are not exactly 1st hand accounts unlike Maxamed Aaden Sheikhs ''Back to Mogadishu'' who saw it play out, or the journalistic coverage covering it as it took place and some of their allegations don't add up when you put it against the known facts. Other ones worth mentioning are the ones written by Abdi Samatar. It's a lot of allegations playing association games X is related /from lineage to Y, so that must be the reason in their tribal insinuations. That don't prove it concretly.
The thing that exposes his detractors/opposition the most is that they fail to replicate the progress his regime made the first 10 years and they destroyed everything instead of building on it. and failing to bring about any real plans or alternatives to his government.
They are also selective in their criticisms, and wont make them towards the militia groups & their leaders that attacked, commited crimes and continued the civil war, wont even hold to the same level of accountability and scrutiny. Will even excuse it if they are not on the opposition and elect them into office.
Things only started to tumble with the introduction of IMF and World Bank structural programs introduced after the Ogaden war. Corruption also accompanied the flood of aid money they were unfamiliar with.
I have read a lot of the Somali written books on him Ahmed Samatars, even read Haji Ingriis, Said Samatars with David Latin's writings on Siad Barre and Kacaanka, the problem is that most were written in the years after the collapse , so they are not exactly 1st hand accounts unlike Maxamed Aaden Sheikhs ''Back to Mogadishu'' who saw it play out, or the journalistic coverage covering it as it took place and some of their allegations don't add up when you put it against the known facts. Other ones worth mentioning are the ones written by Abdi Samatar. It's a lot of allegations playing association games X is related /from lineage to Y, so that must be the reason in their tribal insinuations. That don't prove it concretly.
The thing that exposes his detractors/opposition the most is that they fail to replicate the progress his regime made the first 10 years and they destroyed everything instead of building on it. and failing to bring about any real plans or alternatives to his government.
They are also selective in their criticisms, and wont make them towards the militia groups & their leaders that attacked, commited crimes and continued the civil war, wont even hold to the same level of accountability and scrutiny. Will even excuse it if they are not on the opposition and elect them into office.
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Barre ruled from October 1969 to 1991. The Ogaden war ended in March 1978. Therefore, by Barre's 10 year mark, he was already dealing with the after-effects of said conflict.
So I wouldn't say first 10 years, maybe first 7 or 8 out of 22 years ruled. A decent 33 percent of his regime.
The reason the kacaan had to take out loans from the IMF and World Bank was to sustain an inflated economy caused by an expensive war and a welfare state that generated little to no income.
This is simply economic mismanagement.
The reality is that the second decade of a newly established country is always better than the first decade. As long as the country is secure and stable and there isn't a global recession, there should be improvement is almost every single sector. That is a fact of nature.
Yes, credit does belong to Barre for providing a platform and implementing these policies, however, these would have been implemented under the civilian administration regardless.
The question is whether Barre capitalised on the upward momentum of the 1960s and early 1970s. The answer is no, Barre instead decided to inflate the military and enter the Ogaden war, inflict damage on the economy with debt mismanagement, hyperinflation and corruption.
Firstly, Barre nationalised numerous sectors of the economy under the guise of socialising the economy. Secondly, Somalia barely received much foreign investment compared to its neighbours such as Kenya or Ethiopia.
I'll pose a question: Why do you think Somalia never had international hotel chains or resort chains or even international brands in the country during the Barre administration? Meanwhile Kenya and Ethiopia had thriving FDI in their tourism sector.
For economic growth, the SYL government had 50% increase in GDP during its decade of governance. This is despite inheriting two colonies with different legal, political and institutional systems.
As for safety, this was inherited from the SYL. Mogadishu was always a safe city, as was every other city in Somalia.
As for our military, nearly every top general and officer was trained abroad during the SYL administration including Siyaad Barre. Somali pilots were trained under agreements made during the civilian administration. Our military pacts with the USSR was signed during the SYL administration.
The reality is that Somalia was doomed the minute the civilian government collapsed. A military dictatorship nearly always ends in turmoil or poverty.
Many Somalis justify the Barre dictatorship by proclaiming the corruption of the civilian administration. However, I must ask, does corruption justify a military dictatorship that ended up being just as corrupt.
What did Siyaad Barre offer in being a dictator that could not be fixed in the current democracy?
Why did we have to jump to the most drastic and possibly the most unhinged solution.
He saved thousands of Qaldans in the mid70s and early 80s from a famine as big as the Ethiopian one.
if anyone doesn’t know about the drought back then it was called dabadheer.
Instead of relying on western Aid like Ethiopia, Barre galvanized all the educated medics and young people to transport Qowdhans from the north along with their xoolo. He settled them in villages and asked the locals to teach the Qowdans to feed themselves by fishing and farming. Most didn’t like the lifestyle (hard work) and moved to xamar or elsewhere.
The irony is now their grandchildren (who would’ve never existed if it weren’t for Barre) are obsessed with slandering Barre.
if anyone doesn’t know about the drought back then it was called dabadheer.
Instead of relying on western Aid like Ethiopia, Barre galvanized all the educated medics and young people to transport Qowdhans from the north along with their xoolo. He settled them in villages and asked the locals to teach the Qowdans to feed themselves by fishing and farming. Most didn’t like the lifestyle (hard work) and moved to xamar or elsewhere.
The irony is now their grandchildren (who would’ve never existed if it weren’t for Barre) are obsessed with slandering Barre.
Arabsiyawi
HA Activist.
The same trible resettlement that worsened the civil war ?
Out of all them niggas said this is probably the most ridiculous stuff I’ve readIt was the first 10 years maybe a bit more than that since the IMF and World Bank structural programs wasn't introduced until the early 1980s. After big military expenditure every country develops national debt even the US, Somalia had debt and inflation as a result.
The economy and everything was going fine until those foreign debt servicing agents came knocking.
They imposed harsh economic policies which sent everything in disarray. A big chunk of state employees were laid off, food crop farming was abandoned in favor of cash crop farming, and healthcare and rural development programs were also scaled down. The IMF policies reduced farm production and killed the agro-based manufacturing sector because crops had to be exported to finance debt servicing. This resulted in job loss and economic downturn. They also drastically diminished the state capabilities to serve and deliver for its people.
Also Investments from USSR & other countries is need for development projects & economic growth especially in the absence of pre-existing industries for borrowing & capital and training abroad is also needed, a lot of those same people would be brought back to transfer knowledge and technical expertise that was so badly needed and fill the positions.
Siad Barre nationalized key sectors that was rife with exploitation so he could turn it around to benefit the needs of the people and reach self-suffiency and it worked. It boosted productivity and it went to add to the economic growth. He nationalized banking, insurance, petrol distribution, electricity production etc
Most of them were foreign owned and ran firms/industries when the Kacaan took over.
For example electricity before being nationalized was monopolized by 1 small italian company and served to give electricity a few Italian expadriates, after nationalization electricity was made available to all Somalis across Somalia.
Nationalization of all schools for example took away the british and italian elite taught monopolization of school system that alienated majority of Somalis. Prove to be instrumental in the spread of literacy in the end.
This only to mention of few positive changes nationalization brought.
The 1960-1969 government was corrupt, maladminstrated , had an economy run by colonialists, rife with violence, even led to the assassination of the President, and large funds was missing that would go to fund elections bribes etc that was intended to go to development , much of the intended slack and mobility was picked up by the Kacaan regime in the first 10 years.
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There is no need to romanticize Siad Barre (he has is own faults) he is no saint but not looking at things from political-economic point of view and narrowly blaming 1 man is what's the problem is in my book
Because it avoids a clear look at the structural problems that prevails in Somalia to this day, which is clearly is deeper than 1 person and pre-dated his arrival.
It also exposes a lot of the critics as just petty retribution seekers who seek to use him to excuse their own failings and wrongdoings.
I am pretty sure no one is asking for a return of the Kacaan but we can look back and see where things went right and where things went wrong and learn from it. Instead of dismissing and downplay it all together.
Because it avoids a clear look at the structural problems that prevails in Somalia to this day, which is clearly is deeper than 1 person and pre-dated his arrival.
It also exposes a lot of the critics as just petty retribution seekers who seek to use him to excuse their own failings and wrongdoings.
I am pretty sure no one is asking for a return of the Kacaan but we can look back and see where things went right and where things went wrong and learn from it. Instead of dismissing and downplay it all together.
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Are you sure we read the same book? From the very beginning his reign was addicted to aid. We had 90% deficit in our trade balance due to high borrowing. Afweyne was lured by low interest rates and long payment period. Did you know majority of the budget went to military and Administrative costs? By the late 70s Social Services & Economic Services was only 10% & 15% of the entire budget. Even less so if you count by GDP, it was down. All the agricultural projects failed along with corps except for rice production doubling along the years. Fisheries and manufacturing stagnated due to many different reasons mostly technical & managerial. 98% of our export revenues came from Livestock he failed to develop it and instead throw borrowed cash on Agricultural, Fisheries and Manufacturing whom all failed and most of them never become profitable still relying on subsidies to remain afloat. We where literally living off our livestock exports paying fees that generates more than 40% of the government revenue. The oil refinery built by Iraq worked with 40% of it's capacity and was that Sugar factory. Poverty was 65% (less than 48$ a month) Our international Arline where more than half the fleet was grounded in different airports and rusting away, Somali shipping company was bankrupt 50% of our ships was stranded in foreign ports due to poor management. By 1979 we had 200 Doctors in the whole country so much for free healthcare and 60% of Hospital Beds where in Mogadishu alone. Despite the large leap in literacy rates and primary school attendance only 7% went for secondary schools and 65% of them were also in Mogadishu.
His only success was in literacy campaign, the response to drought and the expansion of road network. Literally in every other aspect he failed miserably. Again, did you read the same book by that Sameroon Professor?
The craziest thing I read was a group of 50 livestock traders in Burco and Hargeisa controlled the entire livestock trade and imported goods benefiting from the difference in price between local livestock and it's price abroad providing goods to the Somali market with lower cost than even international markets in a complex scheme of exchange. Our network of dilaals & traders in GCC countries provided hard currency to Afweyne where he got %10 cut of all transactions that provided 40% of his government budget. He literally bite the hand that feeds him. Rubber Lipped Beast was a greedy bastard.
The economy the first 10 years of the regime everything was going fine. It was experiencing growth and lower levels of poverty as well.
Like i said a lot of the economic problems happened after the Ogaden war when the IMF and World Bank structural programs were introduced. His critics use this as an arguing point all the time . There was no borrowing or aid money before this and somalia was virtually self-sufficient up until that point: Read how it destroyed the economy:
I even mention this in what you replied to, do better at reading next time
''Western aid influx which began in during the late 1970s , ammounted to a new occurance''
I also explained it better detail here the structural economic changes that happened with introduction IMF and World Bank as debt servicing agencies where a lot of governmental programs, livestock, fishery and agricultural production had to be scaled back or even abandoned to satisfy them, and also how nationalization benefited Somalis even the literacy program wouldn't be even possible if it wasn't for that
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My fascination with the first 10 years of the regime goes beyond Siad Barre, he has is own wrongs namely clamping down brutally on opposition which just further emboldened them more and entering into agreement with IMF/US who imposed policies and conditions that wrecked the economy.
I don't agree with the Tribalist and genocide attachments though, the evidence for that is either lacking or questionable and more based on politically motivated qabil association games (De Anna Simons explains it) and weaponizing government counter-offensive that militia groups provoked.
What the first 10 years signifies to me is that with a centralized unitary rule if Somalis are left to manage and decide for themselves without external meddling and disruption they are capable of making real progress and changes in the right direction.
I don't agree with the Tribalist and genocide attachments though, the evidence for that is either lacking or questionable and more based on politically motivated qabil association games (De Anna Simons explains it) and weaponizing government counter-offensive that militia groups provoked.
What the first 10 years signifies to me is that with a centralized unitary rule if Somalis are left to manage and decide for themselves without external meddling and disruption they are capable of making real progress and changes in the right direction.
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That's a bold lie. Somalia was never self sufficient and always been heavily addicted on aid.
"From the beginning, "independent" Somalia established a pattern of dependency not only on foreign aid grants, but also on external debts in order to carryout the basic responsibilities of the government."
The civilian government was also dependent on aid but as you can see from 1974 (year where first statistics was available) there wasn't a single year where we had a surplus. All in the negative and by 1981 the deficit was nearly 300%
If you mean by self sufficiency reduced output of all agriculture crops, fisheries & manufacturing throughtout the 70s than yes you're correct.
You're conflating between two different things, debt and aid. Somalia was addicted to aid from the very beginning. But did you also know our failed development plans especially from 1973 and onwards was financed by aid? The first one from 70 to 72 produced mixed results and dare I say it was a slight net positive. From 72 and afterwards it was a total disaster especially with manufacturing and fisheries.
I lost brain cells reading this. As proven above, the poor economic performance in the 70s precedes Ogaden War & any opposition movement. Your fascinating is misplaced at best and naive at worst.
Behold the Somali Economical Miracle:
The Somali Golden Age 1970 - 1979
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@Yazi Give the civilian government a break sxb. We only had a population of 2 million back then half of which were nomadic snd with zero resources and little infastructure left for us. All on top of having two different former colonial systems to juggle. Meanwhile much more populated African countries with greater resources and traditionally sedentary populaces had tons of aid too.
Not only did he cripple the government with debt and was practically dependent on aid like Al Sisi, the vast majority of the meager revenues we had from livestock (50% of GDP) was spent on military and overgrown public sector (60 - 75%)
The entire economy was based on livestock exports to Saudi. Guess who where the movers & shakers of Somalia's Livestock trade.
No wonder the donkey Afweyne tried to disrupt Isaaq complete dominance over livestock & Khat trade. The tariffs, taxes and revenues from that sector was the main source of revenue for the Somali treasury. Port of Berbera provided him with US military aid valued at 100 million dollars a year. Afweyne bite more than he can chew and was eventually left bankrupt and isolated after 1988. I'm really surprised he lasted untill 1991 going by the state of the economy he should been overthrown by 1986.
The entire economy was based on livestock exports to Saudi. Guess who where the movers & shakers of Somalia's Livestock trade.
No wonder the donkey Afweyne tried to disrupt Isaaq complete dominance over livestock & Khat trade. The tariffs, taxes and revenues from that sector was the main source of revenue for the Somali treasury. Port of Berbera provided him with US military aid valued at 100 million dollars a year. Afweyne bite more than he can chew and was eventually left bankrupt and isolated after 1988. I'm really surprised he lasted untill 1991 going by the state of the economy he should been overthrown by 1986.
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The civilian government was corrupt, that's the important takeaway. However at the very least political association, participation in discourse and human rights where all upheld and protected by the early Government. No one would have taken arms and form rebel groups under Aden Cadde or Shermarke but Afweyne apologists will gaslight you into believing that a 14 million dollar literacy campaign or cross state road is somehow worth burning down a whole country for the sake of Afweyne.
Aden Adde was incredible by Somali standards. He never recieved education past primary due to Italian rule yet was still highly intelligent and astute. The mere act of giving power over to Shermarke without much fuss is praise worthy as was his defence of the nation against Ethiopia in 1964. Alhamdulillah that Barre didn't execute him but its sad to know he lived a long life only to see his nation crumble.
That's a bold lie. Somalia was never self sufficient and always been heavily addicted on aid.
View attachment 329211
"From the beginning, "independent" Somalia established a pattern of dependency not only on foreign aid grants, but also on external debts in order to carryout the basic responsibilities of the government."
The civilian government was also dependent on aid but as you can see from 1974 (year where first statistics was available) there wasn't a single year where we had a surplus. All in the negative and by 1981 the deficit was nearly 300%
If you mean by self sufficiency reduced output of all agriculture crops, fisheries & manufacturing throughtout the 70s than yes you're correct.
View attachment 329216
You're conflating between two different things, debt and aid. Somalia was addicted to aid from the very beginning. But did you also know our failed development plans especially from 1973 and onwards was financed by aid? The first one from 70 to 72 produced mixed results and dare I say it was a slight net positive. From 72 and afterwards it was a total disaster especially with manufacturing and fisheries.View attachment 329214
View attachment 329217
I lost brain cells reading this. As proven above, the poor economic performance in the 70s precedes Ogaden War & any opposition movement. Your fascinating is misplaced at best and naive at worst.
Behold the Somali Economical Miracle:
View attachment 329224
View attachment 329225
View attachment 329226
View attachment 329227View attachment 329228
The Somali Golden Age 1970 - 1979
I have read the whole thing before, you are not showing me anything new.
It's not entirely accurate, most of the debt he is associating with the government isn't hard cash injected into the economy in form foreign currency at all , it's stuff like direct investments, foreign financing in state projects and large industrial farms and supply of equipments (both industrial and military) and stuff like that by the Soviet and others. Nor was there much direct aid either. All of that came after the Ogaden war with the introduction of US/IMF
He even says that employments and manufacturing increased as a result of it and output shot up. So i don't see where the problem lies in this. People don't seem to realize how waaay back Somalia started from and how it was steadily growing. You judge it by progress basis not where they are currently ranked. There is no real developments in these sectors before that, these projects did not exist.
''While they be making progress'' ''while it increased'', ''while it was intended'' loool
He also mentions managerial issues, The Kacaan regime recognized they lacked the skilled work force to undertake certain projects, therefore relied on foreign technical assistances alongside domestic laborers that would meet out over time and also because Somalia started off underdeveloped heavily from the previous regime with work force shortages, they lacked technicality and expertise so the government built technical schools domestically and sent people abroad for training etc.
Other stuff he mentions is related to the soviet withdrawal and production scaled back aftermath of the ogaden war in 1978 in areas like fishieries. Despite the fact that up until that point SomaliFish was making progress between 1976-77 and generating several thousand tons of fish.
He also talks about export, trade deficit and GDP a lot as well.
Forgetting that most of the agricultural production and manufactoring in the early years was intended to meet domestic needs and domestic markets , not for immediate export purposes in order to feed a starving population and reach self-suffiency. While salaries , prices would drop or decline and this would be better preferred more than importing cheaper produce.
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