Did ajuran empire/state exist?

[Midas]

No on the contrary, it was the same with the collapse of of other states/civilizations for example the Roman Empire, much of the writings and texts disappeared along with the ruins.


It really is a shame, Zayla was referred to as being a manuscript production place, that distributed books and Mogadishu was described as a place of ''high arts and sciences'' and had many schools.

There are not that many swahili manuscripts tbh, most of the ones i have seen available online are just a handful from the 19th century from mosques. We have similar private collections from Mogadishu, Merca and other areas of Somalia.

Hopefully there are murid/faqih families out there have preserved some of it. And perhaps we will get some epigraphic writings written on monuments, tombs and graves to learn more.

Yeah all we can do is be hopeful that the mansucritps survived. I suspected more survived than we might think. I'd put it maybe 10-16000 manuscripts. Since yemen has around 50,000 manuscripts

Regarding your point about swahili manuscripts. Yeah those guys don't have any mansucripts before the 1800s. I think maybe a couple from the late 1700s. Same with west africa. I read the paper on how the hundreds of thosuand of manuscripts is really 1 or 2 sheets being called a manuscript. On top of a lot of them being from the 20th century with a few 19th century and nothing yet from the 1600s golden timbuktu period. You can even see this with how they only have 2 chronicles people constantly use with both being from the late 1600s. I tried to find something else but nothing came up with is strange considering how the mali empire and timbuktu is described. It's made me realize somali arabic manuscripts are the oldest in all of subsharan africa. We likely even have some from 9th or 10th century that survived.

 

[Riftvalley]

Great sources everyone, definitely will be referencing this when people say there was no massive state back then. Just a few months ago there was a guy saying it was only barawe and muqdisho city states. Well then what was the unifiying force that fought against the portugese ? And if I remember correctly this is the same time we (somalis) were pushing away oromos.

When the Jamat baardhere sacked barawe and enforced an annual tax on the people, the Geledi sultanate raised an army of 40 000 men and routed the movement. Likewise, it was the forces of the Geledi who thwarted the movement of Sheikh Majerteini when the latter attempted to seize some areas of the coast with the intent of establishing a first Wahabi emirate in Somalia. Some of The people in the coastal cities later supported the Biimaal forces when Geledi set their eyes on seizing the coast for themselves.

Those more recent example highlights the fact it was the sultanates who controlled the interior land and trade with whom the coastal cities sought help from. The Ajuuran reigned for longer than the Geledi and are said to have controlled larger territory including some areas of the coast, therefore they would have logically been the most capable of resisting the Portuguese attacks.


Another often downplayed fact is the development of cities like Muqdisho and the immense wealth creation often went hand in hand with the rise of sultanates rising from the interior. Muqdishos rise in the period before colonialism was in a large part to do with groups like Geledi and Biimaal agricultural practices, them making products in the interior to sell onto the coast and then onto the wider world, and the safety they provided for the long distance caravan routes serving Benadir.


Edit: yeah, I went on a tangent about the Geledi. I hope you get my drift though.

 

[peterpeter]

of course it exists somalis are the only people who deny their own history

 

[CABDULWALI XASAN.]

When the Jamat baardhere sacked barawe and enforced an annual tax on the people, the Geledi sultanate raised an army of 40 000 men and routed the movement. Likewise, it was the forces of the Geledi who thwarted the movement of Sheikh Majerteini when the latter attempted to seize some areas of the coast with the intent of establishing a first Wahabi emirate in Somalia. Some of The people in the coastal cities later supported the Biimaal forces when Geledi set their eyes on seizing the coast for themselves.

Those more recent example highlights the fact it was the sultanates who controlled the interior land and trade with whom the coastal cities sought help from. The Ajuuran reigned for longer than the Geledi and are said to have controlled larger territory including some areas of the coast, therefore they would have logically been the most capable of resisting the Portuguese attacks.


Another often downplayed fact is the development of cities like Muqdisho and the immense wealth creation often went hand in hand with the rise of sultanates rising from the interior. Muqdishos rise in the period before colonialism was in a large part to do with groups like Geledi and Biimaal agricultural practices, them making products in the interior to sell onto the coast and then onto the wider world, and the safety they provided for the long distance caravan routes serving Benadir.


Edit: yeah, I went on a tangent about the Geledi. I hope you get my drift though.

Who are the geledi

 

[Riftvalley]

Who are the geledi

A southern Somali tribal coalition. They established a sultanate on the old Ajuuraan trade routes the 1800s.

 

[𐒁𐒚𐒒𐒂𐒘𐒂𐒗 𐒎𐒚𐒗𐒗𐒒]

View attachment 346828

A southern Somali tribal coalition. They established a sultanate on the old Ajuuraan trade routes the 1800s.

Geledi was a city-state not a Sultanate

 

[Idilinaa]

Geledi was a city-state not a Sultanate

They were technically a sultanate. As they were a state ruled by a Sultan . You can see it in her book front cover , she describes it as both a city state and a sultanate.

The adjectival form of the word is "sultanic", and the state and territories ruled by a sultan, as well as his office, are referred to as a sultanate (سلطنة ...

It wasn't a kingdom, a monarch that ruled over a larger territory composed of many villages, towns and cities.

 

[𐒁𐒚𐒒𐒂𐒘𐒂𐒗 𐒎𐒚𐒗𐒗𐒒]

They were technically a sultanate. As they were a state ruled by a Sultan . You can see it in her book front cover , she describes it as both a city state and a sultanate.


It wasn't a kingdom, a monarch that ruled over a larger territory composed of many villages, towns and cities.

We need a thread that has a timeline of the different forms of governance in Somali history with a map or something. That would be amazing and could even be passed on to new generations. I see foreigners lying about Somali history all the time.

 

[Idilinaa]

Yeah all we can do is be hopeful that the mansucritps survived. I suspected more survived than we might think. I'd put it maybe 10-16000 manuscripts. Since yemen has around 50,000 manuscripts

Regarding your point about swahili manuscripts. Yeah those guys don't have any mansucripts before the 1800s. I think maybe a couple from the late 1700s. Same with west africa. I read the paper on how the hundreds of thosuand of manuscripts is really 1 or 2 sheets being called a manuscript. On top of a lot of them being from the 20th century with a few 19th century and nothing yet from the 1600s golden timbuktu period. You can even see this with how they only have 2 chronicles people constantly use with both being from the late 1600s. I tried to find something else but nothing came up with is strange considering how the mali empire and timbuktu is described. It's made me realize somali arabic manuscripts are the oldest in all of subsharan africa. We likely even have some from 9th or 10th century that survived.

Do you have a link to that paper?

I have argued in an number of threads that Somalis were not an oral society at all there was widespread literacy in Arabic and there was a wide circulation of texts as well. You can see it throughout descriptions in the 1800s and the number of private libraries by various families and teaching institutions zawiyas/jama'cas.

Even in other authors refrence how much of a setback the central state collapse was for Somalis. It kinda sucks, because it would have allowed us regain earlier on an accurate narrative by interpreting them first hand.

I remain hopeful and we can create a secure environment for their collection.

 

[Midas]

Do you have a link to that paper?

I have argued in an number of threads that Somalis were not an oral society at all there was widespread literacy in Arabic and there was a wide circulation of texts as well. You can see it throughout descriptions in the 1800s and the number of private libraries by various families and teaching institutions zawiyas/jama'cas.

Even in other authors refrence how much of a setback the central state collapse was for Somalis. It kinda sucks, because it would have allowed us regain earlier on an accurate narrative by interpreting them first hand.

I remain hopeful and we can create a secure environment for their collection.

The fact that even after several decades europeans got very little acess to any Somali manuscripts shows how protective these families were. It makes me hopeful that a good amount of them survived.

Here is the paper he looks at a datbase of west african manuscripts from timbuktu the datbase containins over 350,000 manuscripr stored in 35 librafies he takes a look at 31 of these libraries so it's a very exhaustive survey and its probably representative of manuscripts in west africa

What’s In the Manuscripts of Timbuktu? A Survey of the Contents of 31 Private Libraries | History in Africa | Cambridge Core

What’s In the Manuscripts of Timbuktu? A Survey of the Contents of 31 Private Libraries - Volume 48

www.cambridge.org

 

[Idilinaa]

We need a thread that has a timeline of the different forms of governance in Somali history with a map or something. That would be amazing and could even be passed on to new generations. I see foreigners lying about Somali history all the time.

I don't think anyone lied much about Geledi. What he said was accurate they were trying expand towards the coast and another city state the Bardheere Emirate was doing the same. Bardheere fortress was also governed under a sultan but it wasn't dynastic one rather elective every 5-6 years a council of scholars that would elect a Sultan

This is from a German who visited it in the early 1800s

Geledi wanted a coastal port to directly market their products and Bardheere wanted to create a wider caliphate.

The 19th century was as it is described as the ''Era of Sheikhs'' was a conflict between traditionalists and religious reformists. The conflict between Bardheere and Geledi, was similar to the split between Hobyo and Majerteen, the former saw themselves as reformists and the latter saw themselves as keeper's of tradition.

It is kinda reminiscent of the split between Sa'adin leadership and Ahmed Gurey/Garaad Abuun who were essentially revolutionist.

It's not enough to make maps , i think it also important for people to understand the political and economic environment at the time. Inshallah when time opens up for me i will make them.

 

[Idilinaa]

The fact that even after several decades europeans got very little acess to any Somali manuscripts shows how protective these families were. It makes me hopeful that a good amount of them survived.

Here is the paper he looks at a datbase of west african manuscripts from timbuktu the datbase containins over 350,000 manuscripr stored in 35 librafies he takes a look at 31 of these libraries so it's a very exhaustive survey and its probably representative of manuscripts in west africa

What’s In the Manuscripts of Timbuktu? A Survey of the Contents of 31 Private Libraries | History in Africa | Cambridge Core

What’s In the Manuscripts of Timbuktu? A Survey of the Contents of 31 Private Libraries - Volume 48

www.cambridge.org

Yikes! This is pretty scathing.

Clearly, most of these are not libraries of any great historical depth, nor do they contain much extended writing in the Islamic disciplines by local authors.

The lack of works on recitation, like the relatively few grammars, points to the likelihood that Qur’anic recitation was left to the specialists and was not a widely studied subject. The correct pronunciation of words and styles of recitation have always been a fundamental take-off point in Islamic education, which makes the absence of this subject even more curious in the SAVAMA inventories.

These libraries document well the fact that Timbuktu was not the center of West African Islamic scholarship that popular belief has wanted it to be.

The paucity of Arabic language texts suggests an oligoliterate culture, and the absence of subjects like logic suggest legal reasoning was not a part of the limited juridical writing. Further, the lack of evidence of tension between customary law and the shari’a implies not an Islamic culture that rested on jurisprudence, but rather one where the overwhelming juridical preoccupation was with religious duties.

Despite the claim in much of the hype about the Timbuktu manuscripts that they are an embodiment of classical Islamic learning dating back to the sixteenth century, this is not reflected in the contents of these libraries.

If you think about it, the conclusion makes sense. If there was such a large uniform in-depth historical extended culture of Islamic scholarship, wouldn't you see many West African scholars across the Muslim world from Timbuktu and West Africa like you see with Somalis carrying the nisba Al-Jabarti, Al-Zayla'i, Al-Maqdishi etc Especially teaching and spreading knowledge.

I always found that confusing, when you consider the hype around it. Also wouldn't you have outside sources commenting on the learning of those places if they were.

The oligoliterature part he points out means only a very small group were literate and could read and write Arabic. Does that mean the use of Ajami may show that they were or is in the process of being islamized or were trying to explain Arabic to a non-arabic speaking population as literacy was restricted to a small group?

WAAMD notes the presence of `ajamī script in the subject field for an entire work or in the “miscellaneous” field where it appears as commentary/explanation of Arabic words.

Nor is it inclusive of the most common use of `ajamī, the insertion of translations or explanations of Arabic words in the marginalia of texts

They were not a bilingual society like Somalis?

 

[Midas]

Yikes! This is pretty scathing.






If you think about it, the conclusion makes sense. If there was such a large uniform in-depth historical extended culture of Islamic scholarship, wouldn't you see many West African scholars across the Muslim world from Timbuktu and West Africa like you see with Somalis carrying the nisba Al-Jabarti, Al-Zayla'i, Al-Maqdishi etc Especially teaching and spreading knowledge.

I always found that confusing, when you consider the hype around it. Also wouldn't you have outside sources commenting on the learning of those places if they were.

The oligoliterature part he points out means only a very small group were literate and could read and write Arabic. Does that mean the use of Ajami may show that they were or is in the process of being islamized or were trying to explain Arabic to a non-arabic speaking population as literacy was restricted to a small group?



They were not a bilingual society like Somalis?

These two part were particularly damning.

 

[Idilinaa]

These two part were particularly damning.View attachment 346846View attachment 346847

So 90% of them are actually just 1 page study sheets that are recorded as seperate manuscripts , that inflate the number of actual manuscripts?

 

[Midas]

So 90% of them are actually just 1 page study sheets that are recorded as seperate manuscripts , that inflate the number of actual manuscripts?

Crazy right? It's not obvious unless you read between the lines what the full implication of what he's saying is. But it makes sense since. Since even in the istnabul libraries where they gathered all of the massive manuscripts collections of the ottoman empire ( which used to gather the most beautiful and oldest manuscripts and unqiue manuscripts) you have about 200,000 manuscripts. If there were really several hundred thosuand manuscripts in west africa of that age and uniqueness. It would have had a massive impact on islamic history.

 

[Midas]

The person who really islamized a lot of west africa into the orthodox islam of today was uthman Dan fodio. He established the massive sokoto caliphate in the 1800s. The world of west african Islam before the dan fodio jihad was probably very diffrent and likely much smaller.

 

[Midas]

My bad uthan dan fodio was a actually more nigeria and I think parts of niger. There's actually another guy who emerged around the same time called omar saidou tall and established the touklour empire . Which did the same thing but for mali and the sahel region

 

[Midas]

These sheikhs were part of series of fulani jihads that happened in the 1700s and 1800s. Since both of them are ethnically fulani.

 

[Riftvalley]

Geledi was a city-state not a Sultanate

They had control over large territories and had allies in other areas where they did not directly control. Their power and prestige of the Sultan was recorded by the Europeans who visited, the Omanis and the coastal traders, etc. The Swahili city state of Siyu had an alliance with the Geledi at one point.

The Sultanate was weakened when a host of clans withdraw from the confederacy and other reasons…….

Another interesting aspect is the fact their allies in the town of Mareerey refused to help the Geledi alliance against the Bardheere sheikhs as they saw it as a fitna. A fatwa was passed by the ulema declaring they would only support a defensive posture and not an attack on other Muslims. This goes in hand with what Idinlaa was saying about the levels of literacy and communication.

The Sultan of the Geledi Himself was a literate, educated man who had received a religious education at Barawe.