Emir of Zayla
𝕹𝖆𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓 𝖔𝖋 𝕻𝖔𝖊𝖙𝖘
Berber was historically first used as an ethnonym for Somalis since the Punt had relations with Ancient Egypt.
https://www.somalispot.com/threads/...nt-egyptian-ethnonym-for-the-puntites.156704/
Did the Ajurans ever control the Banadir coast?
- Thread starter HabarSteven12
- Start date
https://www.somalispot.com/threads/...nt-egyptian-ethnonym-for-the-puntites.156704/
Now you are putting words in my mouth. Bantu is a language, not an ethnic group. Do you not know what Benadiri means? The Banadiri people are ethnically an amalgam of heterogeneous populations. You really need to hit the books on the Banadir coast and the Benadiri people.The copium is insane, there is no evidence that all place names in Southern Somalia is of Bantu-originI can already guess which book you grabbed this out of, and it definitely came out after ‘91. But what happened to the coast all being Benadiri and now you’re claiming it’s all Bantu? How stupid are you?
The history of the Benadir coast is part of the history of the East African Swahili coast. The Swahili culture that evolved on the Banadir coast was the result of the contact of Arab-Islamic civilization on the coast with the Bantu culture of the hinterland.
You used a Wikepdia quote regarding Arabs and Persians having to seek permission from Somalis to settle in their cities.
They are not, but even if they were, that doesn't prove anything. Why are you being racist?How much do you want to bet it’s either a Kenyan or J*reerweyn historian and if it was written after 1991
He literally does. Did you even read his research?
There isn't any overwhelming evidence. Do we have Swahili inscriptions? Any Swahili texts in Mogadishu? This is all based off a few places in Mogadishu having names of Swahili origin.
The least you could do is source the texts you got these from so I can properly access their credibility. If I have to guess, you are probably sourcing Cerulli and other outdated authors.
Once again, you are ill informed and ignorant. According to the most recent research, Mogadishu and the Benadiri city states were most certainly not founded by Swahilis since Somali communities like the Tuuni were already living in the coast before Swahilis came in. This is backed up by the fact that no Swahili speaking community exists in Mogadishu unlike in Barawe and Kismayo and there isn't even a Swahili substratum or linguistic influence on the Somali language. Furthermore, local oral stories have always maintained that Somalis were natives with whom the Swahilis would later mix with. Its also why the south is considered apart of the Bilad Al Barbar and not Al Zanj within Arab geography. Hell, one of your own texts even admit the Somalis were already there and helped founded alongside the Bantus so you already contradicted yourself. Even Sharif Aydrurus believes places like Barawe were founded by Somalis (Garre)
And of course, the most damning evidence against Bantus being in southern Somalia first is DNA. According to genetic research, ancient Kenyans and Tanzanians were half Eurasian and were essentially Cushitic speaking pastorialists meaning southern Somalia including the area around Mogadishu would have undoubtable been populated by the ancestors of Somalis.
Target: KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
Distance: 5.7351% / 0.05735075
54.0 Levant_Natufian
26.0 Dinka
20.0 ETH_4500BP
Distance to: KEN_Early_Pastoral_N
0.03088900 Ethiopian_Jew
0.03462385 Ethiopian_Agaw
0.03467596 Ethiopian_Amhara
0.03933104 Ethiopian_Afar
0.04250592 Ethiopian_Tigray
0.05036863 Eritrean
0.05178191 Ethiopian_Oromo
0.07342072 Somali
0.08618078 Ethiopian_Wolayta
0.08973995 Somali_Kenya
Look at this and tell me that Somalis weren't living in the Benadir coast first because its extremely delusion to say this in the face of evidence of Cushitic speakers living in the Kenyan coast in ancient times.
Wallahi you are a stubborn bastard. Barbaria almost always referred to the Somali coast and nothing else. Virtually every source on the East African coast had always distinguished the Somali coast including the south from the Swahili coast. If there were Swahilis/Bantus living in there then sources should say that but it doesn't. They always say Barbaria.
How are they debunked? This is a literal eyewitness account, nothing about it is lies.
Yes. Yaqut Al-Hamawi and Ibn Sa'id also said Barbars were living in Mogadishu. There were also Portuguese sources IIRC.
You mean Yaqut Al-Hamawi? He literally calls the inhabitants dark skinned.
So one, (1) source that says there were foreigners (which doesn't really imply that Somalis weren't living in the city) debunks all the other sources that say Somalis were living in the Benadir coast/Mogadishu? You are just trolling at this point.
Just give up already you fool. Its exhausting enough to debunk all your poorly made arguments but your gishgalloping is so dishonest, illogical and repetitive that you haven't been able to convince one person on this site. For fucks sake, I can cite numerous scholarly articles and research that all believe Somalis were the ones to inhabit the Benadir coast and founded all its cities. Meanwhile you can only cite outdated scholars or manuscripts that were written in the 19th-20th century.
The Cambridge History of Africa
www.google.com
Why does western scholarship support my beliefs over yours? Could it be that you are delusional in thinking Somalis have nothing to do with the Benadir coast? Its so obvious that I'm dumbfounded as to why you can keep up this charade. Its akin to African Americans thinking Egypt was black despite all the overwhelming evidence saying otherwise. Reevaluate your sources and think harder about what you are arguing next time.
Macawis isn’t from YemenThe desperation wallahi. I am currently wearing a macawiis, an article of clothing from Yemen. Does this mean I am Yemeni as well?
It certainly did not refer to the Arabs lol.
IKHALIIL
WW3 ENJOYER
Man said fakrudin with zero evidence and then tells me what his clan was lol, ibn Battuta said that the sultan by race is berbera, he didnt say arab or persian he said Berbera. Now your here complaining to us on why he didnt call the sultan a somali, it's very simple cuz the word somali wasn't known to us at that time. Al masudi and ibn Khaldun both said berbera is between absynia and the zanj which is clearly somali. Ibn Battuta said that the town of zeila is a berbera town inhabited by negro people and they live between Zeila and Mogadishu. Now tell me when he says the sultan is berbera in what conclusion do you come to by saying he is a benadiri. You also said that maqdishi is a bantu language when people living in xamar and marka never spoke those languages and why the hell would arabs adopt a bantu language in the 1300s lol. There are also old arab poems before islam talking about us somalis and they used the word berbera. We were always known as berbera but here we have a benadiri thinking they was talking about his people, never seen such delusions
Alright so I properly looked into the sources of the texts you posts and found that they are all terrible.
The problem with it is that it chiefly cites Cerulli and I.M Lewis, two highly biased and inaccurate writers. For example. Lewis claims Merca was an Arab settlement and the Hawiye were mere invaders despite what Al-Idrus claimed. Cerulli has also made outlandish claims like Arabs solely founding the coastal cities. I frankly don't care about some unknown author like Mohamed Kassim when we have more credible authors like Njoku, Michael Dumper, Bruce E. Stanley. and Ali Jimale Ahmed
Okay, so first off Mugane LITERALLY says that Mogadishu was a result of Somali and Bantu cooperation which directly contradicts what you said about Somalis not living or founding the city. Second, Mugane repeats what Yaqut Al-Hamawi said about Mogadishu being inhabited by dark skinned Berbers meaning he too believes that Barbar means Somali since he states that it applies to the desert nomad inhabitants of Somalia. And third, as with any oral tales, there is nothing to corroborate the theory that the name Mogadishu is of Persian origin or that its a Somali mispronunciation of a Swahili name.
Lmao, you keep trying to fire but miss every time.
This source is from https://arcadia.sba.uniroma3.it/bitstream/2307/5815/1/The Banadir coast_Its peoples and their cultural history.pdf
The problem with it is that it chiefly cites Cerulli and I.M Lewis, two highly biased and inaccurate writers. For example. Lewis claims Merca was an Arab settlement and the Hawiye were mere invaders despite what Al-Idrus claimed. Cerulli has also made outlandish claims like Arabs solely founding the coastal cities. I frankly don't care about some unknown author like Mohamed Kassim when we have more credible authors like Njoku, Michael Dumper, Bruce E. Stanley. and Ali Jimale Ahmed
This is from John Mugane. https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Story_of_Swahili/zIwNCgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq="as+the+historical+process+behind+the+rise+of+mogadishu"&pg=PA70&printsec=frontcover
Okay, so first off Mugane LITERALLY says that Mogadishu was a result of Somali and Bantu cooperation which directly contradicts what you said about Somalis not living or founding the city. Second, Mugane repeats what Yaqut Al-Hamawi said about Mogadishu being inhabited by dark skinned Berbers meaning he too believes that Barbar means Somali since he states that it applies to the desert nomad inhabitants of Somalia. And third, as with any oral tales, there is nothing to corroborate the theory that the name Mogadishu is of Persian origin or that its a Somali mispronunciation of a Swahili name.
I couldn't find the source for this but you can already tell how terrible it is. It claims all the place names in southern Somalia are of Bantu origin. What? How are Muuqdisho, Merca, Barawe, Gondershe, Hannassa, Ras Bar Balla, Warsheikh and Adale of Swahili origin? Bantus at no point ever dominated southern Somalia the only Swahili speakers the live in Somalia are in Barawa and Kismayo like I stated before. If they really did dominate Arab geographers would have included southern Somalia as apart of the Swahili coast. And of course, the sutff about seven bands of brothers is unsubstantiated BS.
Lmao, you keep trying to fire but miss every time.
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I said Tunni Toore, there's Tunni shangamas and Tunni Toore, it can't be the case for tunni as there's no evidence that suggests it, closest thing I've seen would be this ;
The Cumma call themselves Agiurân (perhaps freedmen of these?) and specifically those same Madinle or Madanle that the Helài defeated in the Baidòa territory; so that part of them took refuge in the Doy, part remained with the Helai and took up residence in Bûr Gheluài; finally, a group called Maaden, asked for protection from the Cumma or Meghèt-wina who were halifa of the Tunni Werile of Brava. Now they form a single group while maintaining the original distinction. Even that is guessing.
Nope not well established, one source says they occupied an area after xaafuun mountains. No way to prove hawiye presence in marka town prior to biimaal migration to south, there's no old areas that they claim to inhabit, masjids that they've left behind or even gravesites, the hawiyes of marka are known like shukureere and juunji who've been in marka for 300 years specifically in Awbaali quarter. As for the reer samaale's in xamar then the fact that they all claim to be from clans in the interior is enough evidence, one of oldest of them being reer amiin khalafow who claim to be from silcis , Amiin Khalafow being their first progenitor to arrive to the coast.
Bimaal literally took the city from a hawiye sub clan lol, in which that sub clan took it from ajuran
He's inaccurate for saying hawiyes invaded, they were welcomed in and resided in their areas in Awbaali district till this day the Shukureere and Juunji reside there. Cerulli's claim isn't outrageous, very funny for a non banadiri to be criticizing what others said about banaadir, only a banaadiri is in the position to criticise, it's like me criticizing what a foreign historian says about the rich history of a certain tuulo in Galmudug.
None are of Bantu origin, the bantus of coastal settlements were brought through slave trade , they brought with them their cultural dances aswell such as Beeba , Madunda, Luunbi and Mateeko.
Biimaal never inhabited the city, they inhabited the hinterlands, it was only a small fraction called kafaari that were blacksmiths that lived in Awbaali , and were looked down upon by ordinary nomadic biimaal.
- The Kafaari belong to the artisan class. Somalis consider only nomadic shepherds "noble": all the others, farmers and artisans, are considered low caste. The Kafaari have specialized in iron working and have their workshop huts to the east of the city, near the fish market. The young people of the clan prefer to become drivers or mechanics, only a few elders continue the art of blacksmithing. (14)
Not a single xaafad in Saraha and Awbaali was inhabited by biimaals other than the Kafaari blacksmiths in Awbaali.
That palace has nothing to do with Ajuran Gareen, it's talking about the palace of Naa'ib Xaaji Samow bin Xaaji Cuthmaan bin Xaaji Nuur Al Hamdani
No evidence of Al Amir being hawiye
This is like saying non-Ethiopians aren't allowed to make criticism of the Ethiopian history. Ethnic origins are irrelevant, only solid arguments matter.
charles gullian literally say they are abgaal
Nope , I'm not talking about nationalities, if you want to talk Ethiopia then it would be like Amharas criticizing Harari history
What's his evidence? You're quoting him like he's a muhadith.
lol he went to somalia in the 1840s, he knows his shit
Still the same then. What, you think Ajnabis aren't allowed to criticize Somali history? What sense is there in that?
Cameroonian qaxooti’s in banaadir before Somalis"Muyi wa Mwisho"
The hotepping is insane
attash
Amaan Duule
I am not saying Tunni Toore were slaves of Ajuuraan, just subjects or tributaries. We are talking about history that occurred 500 years ago, if what I am saying is true, the only evidence that would be available is through oral tradition. Cerulli, the scholar I cited, claims to derive his information from oral tradition, so you can take it or leave it.
There is not one source that says this, it is two different sources, Al-Idrisi and Ibn Said, who both record the Hawiye presence in Marka. These are two different scholars from two different time periods who are saying the same thing. This is enough proof, as they can't both be wrong.
I just proved it! What you are employing here is a circular argument. You employed the same argument to deny the Somali presence in Mogadishu around Ibn Battuta's time. It goes like this:
-Reer Samaale was not present in (insert city) around (insert time period) because there is no evidence.
-The evidence you provided is invalid because Reer Samaale was not present in (insert city) around (insert time period).
-Therefore, Reer Samaale was not present in (insert city) around (insert time period), because there is no evidence.
So what if they claim to be from interior clans? All Arab tribes in Xamar claim to be from Arabia. There is no tribe in Xamar that claims to have spontaneously appeared in the location of the city.
Talking about the Hawiye & Marka reminds of when I was reading about the history of the Sultanate of Bale in Ethiopia a while ago. As it turns out, the Sultanate was actually founded by Hawiye immigrants from Marka who were lead by Sheikh Hussein 900 years ago, which is further evidence for the Hawiye presence in the city at the time. Sheikh Hussein himself was Ajuuraan, however.
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