Did the Ajurans ever control the Banadir coast?

[Banadiri Warrior]

I am not saying Tunni Toore were slaves of Ajuuraan, just subjects or tributaries. We are talking about history that occurred 500 years ago, if what I am saying is true, the only evidence that would be available is through oral tradition. Cerulli, the scholar I cited, claims to derive his information from oral tradition, so you can take it or leave it.

Still requires evidence that all Tunni Toore were, source I sent mentioned that Maaden were the only ones that possibly were.

There is not one source that says this, it is two different sources, Al-Idrisi and Ibn Said, who both record the Hawiye presence in Marka. These are two different scholars from two different time periods who are saying the same thing. This is enough proof, as they can't both be wrong.

The sources contradict eachother .

Al Idirisi says that after the mountains there are small towns called Al haawiyah, then he mentions the distance between Xaafuun and Marka. No source says Hawiyes lived in what was Marka ie Saraha and Awbaali ,unless there's a different Marka up north that was just made up of huts.

View attachment 308813

I just proved it! What you are employing here is a circular argument. You employed the same argument to deny the Somali presence in Mogadishu around Ibn Battuta's time. It goes like this:

-Reer Samaale was not present in (insert city) around (insert time period) because there is no evidence.
-The evidence you provided is invalid because Reer Samaale was not present in (insert city) around (insert time period).
-Therefore, Reer Samaale was not present in (insert city) around (insert time period), because there is no evidence.

You can't prove samaale presence in Xamar or Marka , you can't name areas they used to reside in , you can't name their clans and if there are any clan or family that descend from them, not a single trace left behind by them wether it's graves or masjids they built etc, meanwhile there's ancient inhabitants who's existence and presence are known and recorded such as Shirazi's, the masjids and minarets they built still exist, the areas they inhabited it's known, likewise Hulwanis and even clans such as Abajibil and Quriile who's ancestors once inhabited modern day Xamar Jajab.

So what if they claim to be from interior clans? All Arab tribes in Xamar claim to be from Arabia. There is no tribe in Xamar that claims to have spontaneously appeared in the location of the city.

The difference is the Arabs came centuries earlier from older tribes meanwhile the reer samaale's don't even count 20 generations in xamar. Not only do the reer samaale's claim to be from interior clans but even the sub sub sub sub clans they claim are all from interior.

Talking about the Hawiye & Marka reminds of when I was reading about the history of the Sultanate of Bale in Ethiopia a while ago. As it turns out, the Sultanate was actually founded by Hawiye immigrants from Marka who were lead by Sheikh Hussein 900 years ago, which is further evidence for the Hawiye presence in the city at the time. Sheikh Hussein himself was Ajuuraan, however.

View attachment 308820

View attachment 308815

View attachment 308819

Sheikh Hussein Al Baali is a noble Qurashi Aqiili, his descendants in Marka are the Sheekhaal Aw Cuthmaan Al Marki, in fact the son of Sheikh Maxamed Sheikh Cilmi who's mentioned in that screenshot is the current clan representative

Why don't you show the full screen of that last screenshot?

As for Waalamoge of Eelay they're different to Waalamoge That claim to descend from Caalam Baalcad.

The Walamogga constitute a group within the Helài tribe of Bûr Hacaba and, due to the function of shech - religious leaders that they exercise, they are held in high regard and participate in the entire political life of the tribe. The origins of their story are obscure. They say that they came to the current territory with the Helai, to whom they were aggregated, and that they became their shech only later (perhaps in the region of the Bûr), after they prevailed over those of the Rer Foghè whose shech Au El Mudawa is famous . They consider as their progenitor the shech Hussèn Baliàle, who they say was originally from the country of the Arussi, nor do their genealogical traditions go further than that. Which sometimes vaguely hint - as happens with all groups of shech - to a descent from the Prophet's family. This perhaps also leads them not to admit a relationship of origin with the Walamogga Agiuràn (see Hawiyya picture), although sometimes they do not exclude it.

There's no evidence of Sheikh Hussein Al Baali being from Waalamoge Ajuran who are from Caalam Baalcad. No abtirsi that goes from Sheikh Hussein to Caalam Balcad . Meanwhile his lineage to Aqiil bin Abi Talib is well known , a shortened version of his descendants lineage is mentioned in Bughyatul Aamaal

Another manuscript mentions a less shortened lineage

You had no chance finding evidence of samaale presence in Marka so you resorted to claiming noble Arabs as Samaale's to prove your non-existant point. I'll reiterate it again, the hawiyes of Marka are known and they are shukureere and juunji, who till this day still reside in their section of Awbaali. Likewise the biimaal of marka are known and they're kafaari/fasaxaale and till this day reside in their section of Awbaali .

 

[killerxsmoke]

Still requires evidence that all Tunni Toore were, source I sent mentioned that Maaden were the only ones that possibly were.

The sources contradict eachother .
View attachment 308831
Al Idirisi says that after the mountains there are small towns called Al haawiyah, then he mentions the distance between Xaafuun and Marka. No source says Hawiyes lived in what was Marka ie Saraha and Awbaali ,unless there's a different Marka up north that was just made up of huts.


You can't prove samaale presence in Xamar or Marka , you can't name areas they used to reside in , you can't name their clans and if there are any clan or family that descend from them, not a single trace left behind by them wether it's graves or masjids they built etc, meanwhile there's ancient inhabitants who's existence and presence are known and recorded such as Shirazi's, the masjids and minarets they built still exist, the areas they inhabited it's known, likewise Hulwanis and even clans such as Abajibil and Quriile who's ancestors once inhabited modern day Xamar Jajab.

The difference is the Arabs came centuries earlier from older tribes meanwhile the reer samaale's don't even count 20 generations in xamar. Not only do the reer samaale's claim to be from interior clans but even the sub sub sub sub clans they claim are all from interior.

Sheikh Hussein Al Baali is a noble Qurashi Aqiili, his descendants in Marka are the Sheekhaal Aw Cuthmaan Al Marki, in fact the son of Sheikh Maxamed Sheikh Cilmi who's mentioned in that screenshot is the current clan representative
View attachment 308839

Why don't you show the full screen of that last screenshot?

As for Waalamoge of Eelay they're different to Waalamoge That claim to descend from Caalam Baalcad.
View attachment 308837View attachment 308838 The Walamogga constitute a group within the Helài tribe of Bûr Hacaba and, due to the function of shech - religious leaders that they exercise, they are held in high regard and participate in the entire political life of the tribe. The origins of their story are obscure. They say that they came to the current territory with the Helai, to whom they were aggregated, and that they became their shech only later (perhaps in the region of the Bûr), after they prevailed over those of the Rer Foghè whose shech Au El Mudawa is famous . They consider as their progenitor the shech Hussèn Baliàle, who they say was originally from the country of the Arussi, nor do their genealogical traditions go further than that. Which sometimes vaguely hint - as happens with all groups of shech - to a descent from the Prophet's family. This perhaps also leads them not to admit a relationship of origin with the Walamogga Agiuràn (see Hawiyya picture), although sometimes they do not exclude it.

There's no evidence of Sheikh Hussein Al Baali being from Waalamoge Ajuran who are from Caalam Baalcad. No abtirsi that goes from Sheikh Hussein to Caalam Balcad . Meanwhile his lineage to Aqiil bin Abi Talib is well known , a shortened version of his descendants lineage is mentioned in Bughyatul Aamaal
Another manuscript mentions a less shortened lineage
You had no chance finding evidence of samaale presence in Marka so you resorted to claiming noble Arabs as Samaale's to prove your non-existant point. I'll reiterate it again, the hawiyes of Marka are known and they are shukureere and juunji, who till this day still reside in their section of Awbaali. Likewise the biimaal of marka are known and they're kafaari/fasaxaale and till this day reside in their section of Awbaali .

A famous Arab cartographer Ahmed ibn Majid in the 15th century clearly puts the whole banaadir coast until the South of Baraawe under Al-Hayarab(Hiraab)
Yaqut from the 13th century talking about marka

This french translation in the 1848 translate ibn sa'ids work

Everyday is a mental gymnastic with you guys talking about the same shit when u get debunked heavily. This our city whether unlike it or not

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

A famous Arab cartographer Ahmed ibn Majid in the 15th century clearly puts the whole banaadir coast until the South of Baraawe under Al-Hayarab(Hiraab)
View attachment 308851View attachment 308852
Yaqut from the 13th century talking about marka
View attachment 308853

This french translation in the 1848 translate ibn sa'ids work
View attachment 308854View attachment 308855


Everyday is a mental gymnastic with you guys talking about the same shit when u get debunked heavily. This our city whether unlike it or not

Coping yet again, It says Hiraab north of mogadishu, where are those 50 hawiye mundul villages? .

Only this source from Al Idirisi is closest to the truth. Whereas there's no evidence to back up hawiye presence in Marka before 300 years ago, unless you're claiming that Arabs and persians conquered the area from Hawiyes and built their settlements which would be Modern day Saraha and Awbaali.

You hoteps rant about there being mythical ancient hawiye that inhabited Marka at one point but can't show anything to point to their presence, wether it's oral , old mundul settlements that they left behind , gravesites or even their modern day descendants, unless you beleive they're an extinct branch of hawiye.

If you want to unuka leh anything then stick to the areas in Awbaali where shukureere and juunji live .

 

[killerxsmoke]

Coping yet again, It says Hiraab north of mogadishu, where are those 50 hawiye mundul villages? .

View attachment 308861
Only this source from Al Idirisi is closest to the truth. Whereas there's no evidence to back up hawiye presence in Marka before 300 years ago, unless you're claiming that Arabs and persians conquered the area from Hawiyes and built their settlements which would be Modern day Saraha and Awbaali.

You hoteps rant about there being mythical ancient hawiye that inhabited Marka at one point but can't show anything to point to their presence, wether it's oral , old mundul settlements that they left behind , gravesites or even their modern day descendants, unless you beleive they're an extinct branch of hawiye.

If you want to unuka leh anything then stick to the areas in Awbaali where shukureere and juunji live .

Miskeen wallahi ur finally losing it, then y dont u debunk yaqut then lol

 

[attash]

Still requires evidence that all Tunni Toore were, source I sent mentioned that Maaden were the only ones that possibly were.

The sources contradict eachother .
View attachment 308831
Al Idirisi says that after the mountains there are small towns called Al haawiyah, then he mentions the distance between Xaafuun and Marka. No source says Hawiyes lived in what was Marka ie Saraha and Awbaali ,unless there's a different Marka up north that was just made up of huts.

Even then, Ibn Sa'id still refers to Marka as the capital of the Hawiye. I was also just reminded by @killerxsmoke of what another medieval scholar, Yaqut al Hamawi, says about Marka:

Merca is a town on the coast of the Zanj (Zandschabar), belonging to the Berbers of the Blacks, not the Berbers of the Maghrib.

Yakut (or Jakut) al Hamawi 1220

Back to Table of Contents (5)To next page Yakut (or Jakut) al Hamawi (1220) Kitab Mu'jam al-buldan (geographical directory) Baghdad--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yaqut Shihab al-Din ibn-Abdullah al-Rumi al-Hamawi...

pieterderideaux.jimdofree.com

Yaqut al Hamawi doesn't specifically reference which qabiil lives in the region, but we both know he isn't talking about Arab Banaadiris.

That's three sources that make definite references to the Somali presence in the Banaadir in the medieval period (Ibn Battuta, Ibn Sa'id, Yaqut al Hamawi) and one source that makes a questionable reference (al Idrisi). You can throw in Ibn Khaldun as well who says this:

Besides them one finds the Barbara, of which the poet Imru'u-l-Qays speaks in his verses. Islam is nowadays very extended among them. They have a town on the Indian ocean called Mogadishu, which is often visited by Muslim merchants. Al Muqaddim, page 109

That makes four definite references, more than enough. Unless you are saying that four different scholars from four different locations, four different time periods (one of them who visited the Banaadir himself), all somehow make the same incorrect claim, which is just impossible.

At this point, I'm going to have to ask you about how many medieval texts reference Arab or Persian settlement in the Banaadir. None of the texts you show me predate the 19th century.

You can't prove samaale presence in Xamar or Marka , you can't name areas they used to reside in , you can't name their clans and if there are any clan or family that descend from them, not a single trace left behind by them wether it's graves or masjids they built etc, meanwhile there's ancient inhabitants who's existence and presence are known and recorded such as Shirazi's, the masjids and minarets they built still exist, the areas they inhabited it's known, likewise Hulwanis and even clans such as Abajibil and Quriile who's ancestors once inhabited modern day Xamar Jajab.

Even if I showed you the gravesites and masaajid, you would still deny it just like how you denied the grave that @killerxsmoke showed you by making the ridiculous claim that his people moved the bones all the way to Xamar for some reason .

Regardless, we do not need to show any of this, we know the "Samaale" were present in Xamar in the medieval period because of all the scholars and geographers that reference them. It is just like how their are no ruins left of the Great Library of Baghdad, yet we know it existed because of all the scholars that referenced it like Al-Tabari and Ibn al-Nadim.

Like I said, your reasoning is circular. You think that Somalis had no medieval presence in Banaadir because there is no evidence, and everytime evidence is presented to you, you deny that evidence because it contradicts your original claim. This is just bad logic.

The difference is the Arabs came centuries earlier from older tribes meanwhile the reer samaale's don't even count 20 generations in xamar. Not only do the reer samaale's claim to be from interior clans but even the sub sub sub sub clans they claim are all from interior.

Sheikh Hussein Al Baali is a noble Qurashi Aqiili, his descendants in Marka are the Sheekhaal Aw Cuthmaan Al Marki, in fact the son of Sheikh Maxamed Sheikh Cilmi who's mentioned in that screenshot is the current clan representative
View attachment 308839

Why don't you show the full screen of that last screenshot?

As for Waalamoge of Eelay they're different to Waalamoge That claim to descend from Caalam Baalcad.
View attachment 308837View attachment 308838 The Walamogga constitute a group within the Helài tribe of Bûr Hacaba and, due to the function of shech - religious leaders that they exercise, they are held in high regard and participate in the entire political life of the tribe. The origins of their story are obscure. They say that they came to the current territory with the Helai, to whom they were aggregated, and that they became their shech only later (perhaps in the region of the Bûr), after they prevailed over those of the Rer Foghè whose shech Au El Mudawa is famous . They consider as their progenitor the shech Hussèn Baliàle, who they say was originally from the country of the Arussi, nor do their genealogical traditions go further than that. Which sometimes vaguely hint - as happens with all groups of shech - to a descent from the Prophet's family. This perhaps also leads them not to admit a relationship of origin with the Walamogga Agiuràn (see Hawiyya picture), although sometimes they do not exclude it.

There's no evidence of Sheikh Hussein Al Baali being from Waalamoge Ajuran who are from Caalam Baalcad. No abtirsi that goes from Sheikh Hussein to Caalam Balcad . Meanwhile his lineage to Aqiil bin Abi Talib is well known , a shortened version of his descendants lineage is mentioned in Bughyatul Aamaal View attachment 308843
Another manuscript mentions a less shortened lineage View attachment 308844

Lmao that lineage is bogus, just like all the other Somali lineages that go back to Aqil (ra). According to that manuscript, the distance between Sheikh Hussein and Aqil ibn Abi Talib (ra) is 10 generations or 250-300 years. In reality, the distance between Sheikh Hussein and Aqil is 500 years. Furthermore, the lineage shown mentions Sheikh Hussein descending from a man named Abu Bakr ('Ābid?) ibn Aqil ibn Abi Talib. The children of Aqil are known and none of them have that name. Even my Darod-Aqili-Hashimi lineage is more legit than this, at least we claim to be from Muhammad ibn Aqil, who actually existed .

You had no chance finding evidence of samaale presence in Marka so you resorted to claiming noble Arabs as Samaale's to prove your non-existant point. I'll reiterate it again, the hawiyes of Marka are known and they are shukureere and juunji, who till this day still reside in their section of Awbaali. Likewise the biimaal of marka are known and they're kafaari/fasaxaale and till this day reside in their section of Awbaali .

I used Sheikh Hussein as supplementary evidence based on what I had just recalled, the evidences I showed earlier are more than enough.

Also the sources I showed also mentioned Hawiye immigrants from Marka who established the Sultanate of Bale alongside Sheikh Hussein, yet another reference to the medieval Hawiye presence in Marka.

Suffice it to say that Sheikh Hussein himself's origins are more obscure than I thought, but it doesn't matter though given all the other evidences that exist that prove my point.

 

[Al Adnani]

Yes, this is why I used Yaqut al Hamawi as a supplementary source. What any one scholar says is fallible, but the weight of four different scholars is unassailable.

Yeah. Im gonna delete my post anyways I like the lamagoodle founding xamar agenda even if I dont exactly believe in it

 

[Three Moons]

Yeah. Im gonna delete my post

You shouldn’t, because that specific interpretation of the word ‘Ghuraba’ did not have the same meaning that the word currently has. In Yaqut’s time that word would have meant ‘stranger’. Remember that Islam started as something strange and will return to being something strange. At the time of his writing, there were large parts of the Somali peninsula that were still steadily converting to Islam. He most likely used that term to distinguish the ‘Muslims’ from the ‘non-Muslims’ surrounding the city.

Does anyone have a direct Arabic quote from his book without secondary interpretations?

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

Even then, Ibn Sa'id still refers to Marka as the capital of the Hawiye. I was also just reminded by @killerxsmoke of what another medieval scholar, Yaqut al Hamawi, says about Marka:

Merca is a town on the coast of the Zanj (Zandschabar), belonging to the Berbers of the Blacks, not the Berbers of the Maghrib.

Yakut (or Jakut) al Hamawi 1220

Back to Table of Contents (5)To next page Yakut (or Jakut) al Hamawi (1220) Kitab Mu'jam al-buldan (geographical directory) Baghdad--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yaqut Shihab al-Din ibn-Abdullah al-Rumi al-Hamawi...

pieterderideaux.jimdofree.com

Yaqut al Hamawi doesn't specifically reference which qabiil lives in the region, but we both know he isn't talking about Arab Banaadiris.

That's three sources that make definite references to the Somali presence in the Banaadir in the medieval period (Ibn Battuta, Ibn Sa'id, Yaqut al Hamawi) and one source that makes a questionable reference (al Idrisi). You can throw in Ibn Khaldun as well who says this:

Besides them one finds the Barbara, of which the poet Imru'u-l-Qays speaks in his verses. Islam is nowadays very extended among them. They have a town on the Indian ocean called Mogadishu, which is often visited by Muslim merchants. Al Muqaddim, page 109

That makes four definite references, more than enough. Unless you are saying that four different scholars from four different locations, four different time periods (one of them who visited the Banaadir himself), all somehow make the same incorrect claim, which is just impossible.

Looks like you don't get tired of coping,

وفي شرقيه من بلاد بربرا المشهورة علي البحر مركة حيث الطول ٦٩ د وثلاثون دقيقة والعرض درجة وعشرة دقائق، وأهلها مسلمون وهي قاعدة الهاوية التي تنوف علي خمسين قرية، وهي شاطئ نهر يخرج من نيل مقديشو وينصب علي مرحلتين من المدينة في شرقيها، ومنه فرع يكون حوض مركة، وفي شرقي ذلك مدينة الإسلام المشهورة في ذلك الصقع والمترددة الذكر علي السن المسافرين وهي مقديشو حيث الطول ٢٧ درجة والعرض درجتان، وهي علي بحر الهند ومرساها غير مأمون الأنواء

That's what Ibn Sa'id Al Maghribi says, He says to the east of Xaafuun mountains is Marka, he then says to the east of Marka is Muqdisho.

From this we can conclude, that the description is completely inaccurate , Al Idirisi seperated between Marka and Hawiye base which was after xaafuun mountains, meanwhile Ibn Sa'id (who wrote a century after him )refers to Marka being their base, Al Idirisi doesn't mention Muqdisho or Mungiya which are much older than Marka.

Only thing correct that correlates with the rest of evidences available that Yaqut Al Hamawi said, was his description of Muqdisho, as the inhabitants were Arabs and Persians and a council of elders ruled.

Now none of your sources mention the word Samaale.

At this point, I'm going to have to ask you about how many medieval texts reference Arab or Persian settlement in the Banaadir. None of the texts you show me predate the 19th century.

We don't need foreigners to prove to us our own history when our own primary sources are sufficient, we would use them as supplementary evidences such as what Yaqut Al Hamawi said of Muqdisho .

Even if I showed you the gravesites and masaajid, you would still deny it just like how you denied the grave that @killerxsmoke showed you by making the ridiculous claim that his people moved the bones all the way to Xamar for some reason .

There's no "even" mate, there's nothing you can show. I didn't make the claim, that's what's known amongst reer xamars, why would ancestor of a whole habargidir clan be buried in xamar and have no descendants there, or do you beleive his descendants were an extinct branch of habargidir?

All the ancient gravesites are of native Arabs and Persians, none of foreign reer samaale's, there's no ancient surviving masjid throughout the horn built by Hawiyes, so I don't know how you have the audacity to think they built one in banaadir and not their lands .

Arab graves from 2nd hijri century, centuries before Samaale was born ( according to your people's oral history)

Regardless, we do not need to show any of this, we know the "Samaale" were present in Xamar in the medieval period because of all the scholars and geographers that reference them. It is just like how their are no ruins left of the Great Library of Baghdad, yet we know it existed because of all the scholars that referenced it like Al-Tabari and Ibn al-Nadim.

Nope, no evidence to prove that some extinct samaale's inhabited the coast and somehow got wiped out by Arabs and persians, it would atleast be mentioned in your people's oral history and it wouldn't be some 21st century online discovery .

Like I said, your reasoning is circular. You think that Somalis had no medieval presence in Banaadir because there is no evidence, and everytime evidence is presented to you, you deny that evidence because it contradicts your original claim. This is just bad logic.

No valid evidence has been presented so far, you've dodged the questions as usual and I'm not surprised, because it's impossible to show any trace of hawiye presence in Marka (Saraha and Awbaali)before 300 years ago or Samaale presence in Muqdisho ( Xamar and Shingaani) before 500 years ago.

Lmao that lineage is bogus, just like all the other Somali lineages that go back to Aqil (ra). According to that manuscript, the distance between Sheikh Hussein and Aqil ibn Abi Talib (ra) is 10 generations or 250-300 years. In reality, the distance between Sheikh Hussein and Aqil is 500 years. Furthermore, the lineage shown mentions Sheikh Hussein descending from a man named Abu Bakr ('Ābid?) ibn Aqil ibn Abi Talib. The children of Aqil are known and none of them have that name. Even my Darod-Aqili-Hashimi lineage is more legit than this, at least we claim to be from Muhammad ibn Aqil, who actually existed .

As I said it's a shortened lineage, if there's 29 generations between Sheikh Maxamed Sheikh Cilmi then that already gives you a hint that it's not 10 generations.

I used Sheikh Hussein as supplementary evidence based on what I had just recalled, the evidences I showed earlier are more than enough.

Also the sources I showed also mentioned Hawiye immigrants from Marka who established the Sultanate of Bale alongside Sheikh Hussein, yet another reference to the medieval Hawiye presence in Marka.

Suffice it to say that Sheikh Hussein himself's origins are more obscure than I thought, but it doesn't matter though given all the other evidences that exist that prove my point.

Why not show an abtirsi of him to Caalam Balcad then to prove that he's "hawiye" even tho Caalam Balcad's origin is obscure aswell.

You dodged the question, why not show the full screen of this screenshot ↓

None of his descendants claim to be from Caalam Baalcad yet you're here slandering the sheikh and claiming him to be hawiye somehow.

Now you've decided to backtrack and say the people who accompanied him were hawiye, now it's upon you to prove that, name which hawiye sub clan they were , show any abtirsi that goes to a hawiye individual that lived in Marka before 300 years ago.

Reiterating again, can you name one samaale family that counts 20 generations on the coast? Or even a mundul xaafad in xamar or Marka that was once inhabited by hawiyes before they became extinct and left no trace behind . If you were clever you'd be unuka lehhing Marka as a darood since there's a xaafad called xaafada darood in Awbaali

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

Yeah. Im gonna delete my post anyways I like the lamagoodle founding xamar agenda even if I dont exactly believe in it

They're no different to hoteps, they can't pinpoint where their ancient munduls were in xamar or show a lamagoodle that can count 20 generations in xamar

 

[Zak12]

our own primary sources are sufficient

Those Benadiri sources aren't primary at all. There is no proof they were written at the same time period you two are talking about. Those manuscripts are about things that happened hundreds of years ago and therefore can't be reliable. There is a reason why modern scholars only refer to Al Idrisi, Ibn Said, Yaqut Al Hamawi and Ibn Battuta since those authors were actual contemoraries of the medieval Benadir coast.

Until those manuscripts are properly carbon dated they are useless.

 

[killerxsmoke]

Looks like you don't get tired of coping,

وفي شرقيه من بلاد بربرا المشهورة علي البحر مركة حيث الطول ٦٩ د وثلاثون دقيقة والعرض درجة وعشرة دقائق، وأهلها مسلمون وهي قاعدة الهاوية التي تنوف علي خمسين قرية، وهي شاطئ نهر يخرج من نيل مقديشو وينصب علي مرحلتين من المدينة في شرقيها، ومنه فرع يكون حوض مركة، وفي شرقي ذلك مدينة الإسلام المشهورة في ذلك الصقع والمترددة الذكر علي السن المسافرين وهي مقديشو حيث الطول ٢٧ درجة والعرض درجتان، وهي علي بحر الهند ومرساها غير مأمون الأنواء

That's what Ibn Sa'id Al Maghribi says, He says to the east of Xaafuun mountains is Marka, he then says to the east of Marka is Muqdisho.

From this we can conclude, that the description is completely inaccurate , Al Idirisi seperated between Marka and Hawiye base which was after xaafuun mountains, meanwhile Ibn Sa'id (who wrote a century after him )refers to Marka being their base, Al Idirisi doesn't mention Muqdisho or Mungiya which are much older than Marka.

Only thing correct that correlates with the rest of evidences available that Yaqut Al Hamawi said, was his description of Muqdisho, as the inhabitants were Arabs and Persians and a council of elders ruled.

Now none of your sources mention the word Samaale.

We don't need foreigners to prove to us our own history when our own primary sources are sufficient, we would use them as supplementary evidences such as what Yaqut Al Hamawi said of Muqdisho .View attachment 308975

There's no "even" mate, there's nothing you can show. I didn't make the claim, that's what's known amongst reer xamars, why would ancestor of a whole habargidir clan be buried in xamar and have no descendants there, or do you beleive his descendants were an extinct branch of habargidir?

All the ancient gravesites are of native Arabs and Persians, none of foreign reer samaale's, there's no ancient surviving masjid throughout the horn built by Hawiyes, so I don't know how you have the audacity to think they built one in banaadir and not their lands .View attachment 308976
Arab graves from 2nd hijri century, centuries before Samaale was born ( according to your people's oral history)

Nope, no evidence to prove that some extinct samaale's inhabited the coast and somehow got wiped out by Arabs and persians, it would atleast be mentioned in your people's oral history and it wouldn't be some 21st century online discovery .

No valid evidence has been presented so far, you've dodged the questions as usual and I'm not surprised, because it's impossible to show any trace of hawiye presence in Marka (Saraha and Awbaali)before 300 years ago or Samaale presence in Muqdisho ( Xamar and Shingaani) before 500 years ago.

As I said it's a shortened lineage, if there's 29 generations between Sheikh Maxamed Sheikh Cilmi then that already gives you a hint that it's not 10 generations.

Why not show an abtirsi of him to Caalam Balcad then to prove that he's "hawiye" even tho Caalam Balcad's origin is obscure aswell.

You dodged the question, why not show the full screen of this screenshot ↓View attachment 308974

None of his descendants claim to be from Caalam Baalcad yet you're here slandering the sheikh and claiming him to be hawiye somehow.

Now you've decided to backtrack and say the people who accompanied him were hawiye, now it's upon you to prove that, name which hawiye sub clan they were , show any abtirsi that goes to a hawiye individual that lived in Marka before 300 years ago.

Reiterating again, can you name one samaale family that counts 20 generations on the coast? Or even a mundul xaafad in xamar or Marka that was once inhabited by hawiyes before they became extinct and left no trace behind . If you were clever you'd be unuka lehhing Marka as a darood since there's a xaafad called xaafada darood in Awbaali

You will agree with yaqut when he says foreigners live in Mogadishu but you would deny when he said Merca is inhabited by Somalis. Now tell me who's the one that is coping

 

[hanif#]

You will agree with yaqut when he says foreigners live in Mogadishu but you would deny when he said Merca is inhabited by Somalis. Now tell me who's the one that is coping

Yaqut Al Hamawi never said Merka belongs to Somalis or Berbers. Don't argue like a retard

 

[killerxsmoke]

Yaqut Al Hamawi never said Merka belongs to Somalis or Berbers. Don't argue like a retard

Let me get off from work lol, this is the easiest debunk

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

You will agree with yaqut when he says foreigners live in Mogadishu but you would deny when he said Marka is inhabited by Somalis. Now tell me who's the one that is coping

I will agree with what corresponds with reality and authentic primary sources , Arabs and persians being in muqdisho at that era is proven through the existing of their settlements in xamarweyne, xamar jajab and shingaani, their gravesites and the various Arab tribes that still inhabit their lands till today. There's various Arab tribes that can count their lineage to that era meanwhile not a single Samaale family that can count their lineage 500+ years in xamar.

Yaqut Al Hamawi never mentioned the word Somali and Samaale.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

Those Benadiri sources aren't primary at all. There is no proof they were written at the same time period you two are talking about. Those manuscripts are about things that happened hundreds of years ago and therefore can't be reliable. There is a reason why modern scholars only refer to Al Idrisi, Ibn Said, Yaqut Al Hamawi and Ibn Battuta since those authors were actual contemoraries of the medieval Benadir coast.

Until those manuscripts are properly carbon dated they are useless.

You don't decide what's primary or not. Any scholar that's written about banaadiri history in detail has used local manuscripts and inscriptions.

 

[killerxsmoke]

I will agree with what corresponds with reality and authentic primary sources , Arabs and persians being in muqdisho at that era is proven through the existing of their settlements in xamarweyne, xamar jajab and shingaani, their gravesites and the various Arab tribes that still inhabit their lands till today. There's various Arab tribes that can count their lineage to that era meanwhile not a single Samaale family that can count their lineage 500+ years in xamar.

Yaqut Al Hamawi never mentioned the word Somali and Samaale.

He said black berbers which are somali, stop going around circles

 

[Zak12]

You don't decide what's primary or not. Any scholar that's written about banaadiri history in detail has used local manuscripts and inscriptions.

https://library.shu.edu/primarysources#:~:text=A%20primary%20source%20is%20a,not%20been%20modified%20by%20interpretation.

Learn what primary source means.

"A primary source is a first-hand or contemporary account of an event or topic."

The manuscripts don't fall within this definition.

 

[hanif#]

https://library.shu.edu/primarysources#:~:text=A%20primary%20source%20is%20a,not%20been%20modified%20by%20interpretation.

Learn what primary source means.

"A primary source is a first-hand or contemporary account of an event or topic."

The manuscripts don't fall within this definition.

The manuscripts are primary source. Even oral traditions are primary source and they don't need to be told at the time the events are happening.

 

[hanif#]

He said black berbers which are somali, stop going around circles

He said Mogadishu is in the country of the black Berbers(I.e Somalia) but the city itself is inhabited by strangers(I.e Arabs, Persians)

 

[Zak12]

The manuscripts are primary source. Even oral traditions are primary source and they don't need to be told at the time the events are happening.

Read the link. Unless you can prove those manuscripts were written in the same time period they are just secondary sources at best.

LOL at oral traditions being primary. Get some standards already wallahi, academia isn't a joke.