Fiancé Asks Reddit If She Should Reveal How Much Money She Makes to Her Future Husband

[Angelina]

You raised a good point

Somethings are legal and allowed Islamically but in reality can be morally grey? I don’t know if I’m explaining myself properly. A woman can have a million pounds in America and refuse to pay for husbands medical expenses if he falls into hard times and that is technically legally acceptable under the law when applied black and white. I don’t care what anyone says, that’s immoral in my eyes, even if by theory she’s technically well within her rights. I don’t know if I’m explaining it properly. Hence somethings can be legally acceptable and we can’t say it’s a ‘sin’ per say but in reality on the ground, you’d be falling into cruelty and other issues which isn’t befitting a Muslim couple.

What is this?

Misyr marriage. Wife forgoes all rights even provision. They’re married just meet up to hang out ect. It’s technically legal. But many Salafi scholars such as Albani and Uthaymeen thought it was concerning and have issued fatwas against it.

 

[Odious Delirium]

It’s not picking and choosing as Islamically a woman working or even contributing isn’t haram. Even if we take out the mixed working environment and woman is in cyber security so is at home and she decides to help her husband, does that mean her and her man are picking and choosing? No it’s their arrangement but as long as both parties are aware that the woman can refuse to chip in the next month then I don’t see your point?

I was rather clear there I never said it was haram to work.
I gave a specific example which happens to be the situation of a lot of people.
And I did say in the other post that it's all based on each individuals personal arrangements. People that make the arangement with that stuff in mind isn't who I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who switch up on there arrangement whether they went in orginally as trads or as non/semi trads.

We both know finances is the lead cause of divorce many people switch up on a pre agreed upon arrangement because they want to switch to being trad with someone who wasn't trad that's what I'm talking about. Like guys who went in saying they will be providing by themselves and married a house wife suddenly saying they want them to go out and work. Or getting a non hijabi to wear a hijab post marriage because they posed as a non trad guy but they where actually one of the pick and choose guys. Technically its with in his rights to request it since she has to obey her husband but they went into there relationship with a different non traditional arrangement and he's picking and choosing what he want her to do and what not. In the same way she can switch up on her arangement because of Islamic rights upon the husband and islamically there is no issue but both are hiding things that are vital to the other individuals in that they are not on the same page as there partner and intend to use the deen against there partner to get there way. That's picking and choosing.

Also, hardly any group of people were fully trad. Only the rich and those historically that were from cities. Our ancestors weren’t trad the way you’d see it. The wives were working in the Meey right along side the husbands.

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[Angelina]

I was rather clear there I never said it was haram to work.
I gave a specific example which happens to be the situation of a lot of people.
And I did say in the other post that it's all based on each individuals personal arrangements. People that make the arangement with that stuff in mind isn't who I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who switch up on there arrangement whether they went in orginally as trads or as non/semi trads.

We both know finances is the lead cause of divorce many people switch up on a pre agreed upon arrangement because they want to switch to being trad with someone who wasn't trad that's what I'm talking about. Like guys who went in saying they will be providing by themselves and married a house wife suddenly saying they want them to go out and work. Or getting a non hijabi to wear a hijab post marriage because they posed as a non trad guy but they where actually one of the pick and choose guys. Technically its with in his rights to request it since she has to obey her husband but they went into there relationship with a different non traditional arrangement and he's picking and choosing what he want her to do and what not. In the same way she can switch up on her arangement because of Islamic rights upon the husband and islamically there is no issue but both are hiding things that are vital to the other individuals in that they are not on the same page as there partner and intend to use the deen against there partner to get there way. That's picking and choosing.

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Kinda why i dislike the word ‘Trad’. It’s very classist and isn’t a reflection of the true traditions of most of the world’s population. Also, if you’re a geelgire, if you go back in your abtiris you definitely have reer Meey ancestry. You’re Somali and of nomadic stock if you go back far enough.

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[Odious Delirium]

Kinda why i dislike the word ‘Trad’. It’s very classist and isn’t a reflection of the true traditions of most of the world’s population. Also, if you’re a geelgire, if you go back in your abtiris you definitely have reer Meey ancestry. You’re Somali and of nomadic stock if you go back far enough.

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Being Culturally traditional is very different to being traditional in the Islamic sense.
Yes I'm a geelgire of nomadic stock but that sort of stuff is what islam came to change that our forefathers ways doesn't matter if it goes against the essence of Islam. And like I said as an individual I'm in no way what you would consider traditionally somali other then knowing the language and how somali society and history is to a degree. that's as far as my somalinimo goes I don't listen to somali music or gabeeyes. I don't care for any somali dances. I don't act on things that are a norm amongst somalis but isn't islamically seen as proper amongst other things. I in general don't partake in the Cultural hypocrisies that's somalis like throwing about at each other in these gender wars as a gotchas to the other side.

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[Bundasliga]

You’ve not read anything I said and are on the defensive. Your argument only works if all things are equal. Hiding ones own money that their partner doesn’t have a right to isn’t the same as hiding a marriage in which intimacy is involved.

I read everything. My argument works regardless it's the same basic principle, whatever consequences they might lead to is irrelevant.

You made you case using islamic right, i make my case using Islamic.

The same way many men don't acknowledge the negative effects of hiding their marriage, because its benefitting them ,the same you women using the deen when its benefitting you !

Again its not something I advocate or support just simply pointing out to the inconsistency of your demographic .

I said what i wanted & rest my case.

 

[attash]

2million isn’t actually a lot and you’d need a invest a good amount to make sure that your kids inherit a lot of money. I wouldn’t quit working if had 2million as I’d invest in starting a business and continue working from there. Remember a house in London for a family is 800k to a 1.5 million. Like I said in this economy 2 million really isn’t a lot.

@guycalledAmin already covered what I was about to say in this matter so I’ll let you read his response. But yeah, two mil is enough to retire if you invest it wisely. It would also be wise to move out of a hcol area like London. Where I live houses cost 2-4

Also, Islamically according to all the major madhabs apart from Salafis women aren’t obliged to cook and clean. In fact Shafi which is what most Somalis are the most lenient in this regards and believe a husband can’t oblige her or compel her when it comes to cooking and cleaning. The marriage contract is based on intimacy and obedience and provision for the woman. Also, if you don’t provide for her wife you forfeit obedience as well.

A woman is absolutely to cook for her husband if he asks her to. The most basic and oft mentioned right the husband has over his wife is obedience. Allah (SWT) makethis very clear:

ٱلرِّجَالُ قَوَّـٰمُونَ عَلَىٱلنِّسَآءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ ٱللَّهُبَعۡضَهُمۡ عَلَىٰ بَعۡضٖوَبِمَآ أَنفَقُواْ مِنۡأَمۡوَٰلِهِمۡۚ فَٱلصَّـٰلِحَٰتُقَٰنِتَٰتٌ حَٰفِظَٰتٞلِّلۡغَيۡبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ ٱللَّهُۚ

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband’s] absence what Allah would have them guard. (Surah Nisaa’, 34)

And then there are the many Hadiths which say the same. The wife is obligated to obey her husband in any matter which does not contradict the command of Allah and His apostle or the command of a higher authority like her parents, and also in things that she is unable to do or would cause harm to her. If the husband asks her to cook, she has to cook. If he asks her to clean, she has to clean. If he asks her to tap her head while hopping on one foot, she has to do it. Like @empressjamila said, if you have issue with your spousal obligations, take it up to Allah (SWT). I didn’t make the rules.

Now if you say that there is an exception for cooking and cleaning, you’re going to have to provide evidence. I don’t want the saying of a scholar, I want an actual ayah or hadith.

 

[attash]

Unlike Muslim women i don't support hiding important things like second marriage from my spouse .

Unlike you modern Muslim women who won't move an inch towards your own husband & persist on your rights then those women (you arguing for)have no right to ask their husband to move an inch towards them .

Example the men can marry again & he doesn't have to tell the first wife at all . Its also his religious right , should he do that or should he take his first wife's feelings into consideration?

Getting a second wife in secret is haram. Not telling your wife is a form of lying, since hiding or concealing the truth is a form of lying:

وَلَا تَلۡبِسُواْ ٱلۡحَقَّبِٱلۡبَٰطِلِ وَتَكۡتُمُواْٱلۡحَقَّ وَأَنتُمۡ تَعۡلَمُونَ
And do not mix the truth with falsehood or conceal the truth while you know [it]. (Surah Baqarah, ayah 42)

Since when has lying been halal?

 

[Yaraye]

You are broke & single so shut up.

Of course i am Like i said, Why should your wife's money affect you?

 

[Angelina]

@guycalledAmin already covered what I was about to say in this matter so I’ll let you read his response. But yeah, two mil is enough to retire if you invest it wisely. It would also be wise to move out of a hcol area like London. Where I live houses cost 2-4

A woman is absolutely to cook for her husband if he asks her to. The most basic and oft mentioned right the husband has over his wife is obedience. Allah (SWT) makethis very clear:

ٱلرِّجَالُ قَوَّـٰمُونَ عَلَىٱلنِّسَآءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ ٱللَّهُبَعۡضَهُمۡ عَلَىٰ بَعۡضٖوَبِمَآ أَنفَقُواْ مِنۡأَمۡوَٰلِهِمۡۚ فَٱلصَّـٰلِحَٰتُقَٰنِتَٰتٌ حَٰفِظَٰتٞلِّلۡغَيۡبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ ٱللَّهُۚ

Nope not when it comes to cooking walalo.
In the Shafi’i school, the bare bones of obeying one’s husband are fulfilled by not leaving the house if he forbids one, being cordial and polite if one usually disposed to be, and allowing him to sleep with one if he requests. (al-Yaqut al-Nafis, Shatiri) Included in the latter is the obligation to do things that would otherwise make relations difficult, such as removing pubic hair and keeping clean. Obeying one’s husband in other permissible requests is not an obligation in the Shafi’i school.

What Are My Obligations in Obeying My Husband in the Shafi’i School?

Answered by Ustadh Fariduddin Dingle Question What are my obligations in obeying my husband in the Shafi’i school? Answer Wa alaykum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh, Dear questioner, Thank you for your important question. In the Shafi’i school, the bare bones of obeying one’s husband are...

seekersguidance.org

However, it must be borne in mind that it is not a legal obligation of the wife to cook the meals or do the household chores. It is advisable that she performs these functions out of cooperation. (Contemporary Fatawa p.124)

Does the wife have to cook for her husband? - IslamQA

Does the wife have to cook for her husband Answer: It has been the custom and practice since the time of the Prophet of Allah that the wife should serve her husband in the customary manner, by

islamqa.org

Official Shafi position:


Imam Abu Ishaq al-Shirazi mentioned Al-Muhaddhab:

“A woman is not required obliged to serve her husband by baking, grinding flour, cooking, washing, or any other kind of service, because the marriage contract entails, for her part, only that she let him enjoy her sexually, and she is not obligated to do other than that.”

Note: This is included in Reliance of the Traveller, w45.1.

فصل: ولا يجب عليها خدمته في الخبز والطحن والطبخ والغسل وغيرها من الخدم لأن المعقود عليها من جهتها هو الاستمتاع فلا يلزمها ما سواه.

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband’s] absence what Allah would have them guard. (Surah Nisaa’, 34)

Yes but how do we measure this obedience? When you think that a wife has to clear cut obey a man in everything halal, you’re opening a can or worms. For example, it’s halal for a man to tell his wife to cook and clean at his mothers house, go and clean his sisters house, it’s halal for him to tell his wife to stop using her phone to call people ect. All of this is ‘technically’ halal but is in fact not allowed for him to force obedience in that regard. Under obedience law the way YOU understand it you can effectively enslave your wife. You can literally get her to be your families maid. That’s illogical.

And then there are the many Hadiths which say the same. The wife is obligated to obey her husband in any matter which does not contradict the command of Allah and His apostle or the command of a higher authority like her parents, and also in things that she is unable to do or would cause harm to her. If the husband asks her to cook, she has to cook. If he asks her to clean, she has to clean. If he asks her to tap her head while hopping on one foot, she has to do it.

Nope you’re taking it too far lol. The whole hopping on one foot thing is a joke. A husband can wake a woman up in the middle of the night and tell her to do stuff or get her to do dumb stuff as that goes against her rights. Whilst I woman does have to obey her husband the things he asks her have to be things that don’t go against common sense and dignity.

Like @empressjamila said, if you have issue with your spousal obligations, take it up to Allah (SWT). I didn’t make the rules.

Yes you are making the rules as you have no idea of madhab rulings when it comes to specific things.

Now if you say that there is an exception for cooking and cleaning, you’re going to have to provide evidence. I don’t want the saying of a scholar, I want an actual ayah or hadith.

Saxib, scholars use Hadith. Unless you’re saying that you’re more knowledgeable than three madhabs that’s a funny one and shows your limited understanding as to how the deen works.

Even Salafis who believe a woman must obey her husband when it comes to cooking and cleaning say this:

What happens nowadays is that the wife usually serves her husband and takes care of different matters within the home. There may be a servant to help her with that if her husband can afford it. If the husband knows that the majority of scholars say that it is not obligatory for the wife to serve her husband and take care of the house, I say that one of the benefits of this may be that he will not go to extremes and demand too much of his wife in this regard, and that he will not give her a hard time if she falls short, because what she is doing is not a duty according to the majority of jurists. However, even it is a duty according to some of them and this is what we think is more correct the fact that there is such a difference of opinion means that the husband has to look at what she is doing as something voluntary rather than obligatory, or something in which the scholars differ as to whether it is obligatory, so he should be gentle with her if he sees that she is falling short in this regard, and he should encourage her and help her to do it.

Does a Wife Have to Cook and Clean? - Islam Question & Answer

It is the wife’s duty to serve her husband within the bounds of what is reasonable and as other wives who are like her serve husbands who are like him.

islamqa.info

Hence even if scholars who believe a woman has to are hesitant to say it’s a clear cut Islamic duty due to how many scholars think it isnt, how can we then compare it to providing which is a legal must that the whole marriage contract is based on?

 

[attash]

Nope not when it comes to cooking walalo.
In the Shafi’i school, the bare bones of obeying one’s husband are fulfilled by not leaving the house if he forbids one, being cordial and polite if one usually disposed to be, and allowing him to sleep with one if he requests. (al-Yaqut al-Nafis, Shatiri) Included in the latter is the obligation to do things that would otherwise make relations difficult, such as removing pubic hair and keeping clean. Obeying one’s husband in other permissible requests is not an obligation in the Shafi’i school.

What Are My Obligations in Obeying My Husband in the Shafi’i School?

Answered by Ustadh Fariduddin Dingle Question What are my obligations in obeying my husband in the Shafi’i school? Answer Wa alaykum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh, Dear questioner, Thank you for your important question. In the Shafi’i school, the bare bones of obeying one’s husband are...

seekersguidance.org

However, it must be borne in mind that it is not a legal obligation of the wife to cook the meals or do the household chores. It is advisable that she performs these functions out of cooperation. (Contemporary Fatawa p.124)

Does the wife have to cook for her husband? - IslamQA

Does the wife have to cook for her husband Answer: It has been the custom and practice since the time of the Prophet of Allah that the wife should serve her husband in the customary manner, by

islamqa.org

Official Shafi position:


Imam Abu Ishaq al-Shirazi mentioned Al-Muhaddhab:

“A woman is not required obliged to serve her husband by baking, grinding flour, cooking, washing, or any other kind of service, because the marriage contract entails, for her part, only that she let him enjoy her sexually, and she is not obligated to do other than that.”

Note: This is included in Reliance of the Traveller, w45.1.

فصل: ولا يجب عليها خدمته في الخبز والطحن والطبخ والغسل وغيرها من الخدم لأن المعقود عليها من جهتها هو الاستمتاع فلا يلزمها ما سواه.

I don't follow the Shafi'i school. The Shafi'i school also says that female circumcision is fard, do you agree?

Yes but how do we measure this obedience? When you think that a wife has to clear cut obey a man in everything halal, you’re opening a can or worms. For example, it’s halal for a man to tell his wife to cook and clean at his mothers house, go and clean his sisters house, it’s halal for him to tell his wife to stop using her phone to call people ect. All of this is ‘technically’ halal but is in fact not allowed for him to force obedience in that regard. Under obedience law the way YOU understand it you can effectively enslave your wife. You can literally get her to be your families maid. That’s illogical.

Yes, it is halal for a husband to ask her to do all those things, as long as she is healthy enough to do them. It's not advisable, but it's halal.

Nope you’re taking it too far lol. The whole hopping on one foot thing is a joke. A husband can wake a woman up in the middle of the night and tell her to do stuff or get her to do dumb stuff as that goes against her rights. Whilst I woman does have to obey her husband the things he asks her have to be things that don’t go against common sense and dignity.

What's wrong with tapping your head and hopping on one foot? It's only undignified if you make it so.
Also, waking up your wife in the middle of the night and depriving her of sleep isn't halal since it falls under "actions that harm the wife".

Yes you are making the rules as you have no idea of madhab rulings when it comes to specific things.

Saxib, scholars use Hadith. Unless you’re saying that you’re more knowledgeable than three madhabs that’s a funny one and shows your limited understanding as to how the deen works.

Even Salafis who believe a woman must obey her husband when it comes to cooking and cleaning say this:

What happens nowadays is that the wife usually serves her husband and takes care of different matters within the home. There may be a servant to help her with that if her husband can afford it. If the husband knows that the majority of scholars say that it is not obligatory for the wife to serve her husband and take care of the house, I say that one of the benefits of this may be that he will not go to extremes and demand too much of his wife in this regard, and that he will not give her a hard time if she falls short, because what she is doing is not a duty according to the majority of jurists. However, even it is a duty according to some of them and this is what we think is more correct the fact that there is such a difference of opinion means that the husband has to look at what she is doing as something voluntary rather than obligatory, or something in which the scholars differ as to whether it is obligatory, so he should be gentle with her if he sees that she is falling short in this regard, and he should encourage her and help her to do it.

Does a Wife Have to Cook and Clean? - Islam Question & Answer

It is the wife’s duty to serve her husband within the bounds of what is reasonable and as other wives who are like her serve husbands who are like him.

islamqa.info

Hence even if scholars who believe a woman has to are hesitant to say it’s a clear cut Islamic duty due to how many scholars think it isnt, how can we then compare it to providing which is a legal must that the whole marriage contract is based on?

You still didn't provide an ayah or hadith to support your claim. I usually do not give much consideration to the opinion of a scholar if no Quran or sunnah evidences are cited. I've heard of scholars who say some pretty wild stuff, such as it being halal to marry your bastard daughter and things like that. At the end of the day, the scholars are human and humans are prone to mistakes and misjudgements. I do not dabble with madhhabs or taqlid or any of that stuff. I don't care if you are Sheikh Ibn Taymiyah himself, if you cannot support your claim with an ayah, hadith, or at the very least the saying of a sahabi or tabi'i, and there exist actual scriptural evidences that go against your claim, I don't see why I should listen to you. I follow the Quran and sunnah, nothing more nothing less.

Also, how does it make sense that obedience does not include cooking and cleaning. What else is obedience good for?

 

[Angelina]

I don't follow the Shafi'i school. The Shafi'i school also says that female circumcision is fard, do you agree?

Not just the Shafi school of thought. Nearly all of them apart from Hanafis and even then for Hanafis a man can’t get his wife who was raised with maids to cook, so it’s clear that for them, cooking and cleaning isn’t a religious duty for a wife unlike intimacy and not leaving the house without his permission.

So it’s really not even a case of it being one madhabs. It’s actually nearly all.

Yes, it is halal for a husband to ask her to do all those things, as long as she is healthy enough to do them. It's not advisable, but it's halal.

No it’s not as it’s going against the marriage contract. How is it halal for woman to do YOUR duty? Since you’re meant to look after your mother and family? You’re not allowed to burden your wife to give her extra work that was actually meant for you as son. The wife is only for him and not for his family. The fact that you think it’s halal shows you don’t have an in-depth understanding of the deen:

The wife is not obliged to serve her husband’s father, mother or any of his relatives; rather it is good manners, if she lives in the same house, to serve his parents. But obliging her to do that is not permissible.

https://islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/103426

What you fail to understand is that marriage is based on duties hence you can’t force a woman to do work that isn’t her duty. Example the only reason why Salafis believe a woman must cook and clean isn’t because of ‘obedience’ it’s because there is a Hadith of Fatima the Prophets daughter cooking and cleaning hence they argue since she used do it then it is the duty of all wives as well. They didn’t use the obedience argument for that.

What's wrong with tapping your head and hopping on one foot? It's only undignified if you make it so.
Also, waking up your wife in the middle of the night and depriving her of sleep isn't halal since it falls under "actions that harm the wife".

It is as, you’re asking her to do something stupid. Might as well ask her to hop around and act like a kangaroo. You’re not a puppet master of a woman. The classical understanding of obedience is based on what is the duty of the wife. Hoping around like a fool isn’t her duty. Her duty isn’t to be your jester or clown. But then again you’re crazy enough to think a woman has to obey her husband in serving his family when it is in fact his duty.

You still didn't provide an ayah or hadith to support your claim. I usually do not give much consideration to the opinion of a scholar if no Quran or sunnah evidences are cited.

Are you arguing that the vast majority of sheikhs aren’t taking the Quranic ayah into consideration and only you are?

You’re not a scholar and when nearly all the madhabs are in agreement, who are you exactly? You can say I follow the Salafi stance but you need to understand that the vast majority of them believe that cooking and cleaning isn’t a religious duty. Thats scholars who have memorized more Hadiths and have a holistic view. Show me a Hadith that says a woman has to cook and clean? If you try to use the ayah of obedience that falls short since there are many things that are halal but isn’t acceptable such as forcing a woman to give you money and the list goes on.

I've heard of scholars who say some pretty wild stuff, such as it being halal to marry your bastard daughter and things like that.

Shafis believe that and only them and even with in Shafis many don’t agree. Nothing similar to the idea of husbands not being able to force their wives to cook and clean which is the the view of the majority of classical scholars.

At the end of the day, the scholars are human and humans are prone to mistakes and misjudgements. I do not dabble with madhhabs or taqlid or any of that stuff.

So, you’re asking me to make taqlid of you? You’re human as well with an even lower understanding of Quran and Sunnah and you’re trying to interpret it yourself? Someone who doesn’t understand nuances and how things aren’t black and white? You literally think that a husband can force his wife to serve his family when all scholars disagree and how forcing your wife to do things for them is in fact actually harming her. She’s married to you, not the maid of your family. You’re a perfect example of how ‘obedience’ can be abused.

You even fail to understand that forcing your wife to serve your mother is in fact similar to forcing her to pay for stuff and I’ll explain why, that is because you’re forcing her to do YOUR duty. It’s your DUTY to look after your mother. Not her. It’s akin to you making your wife pay for stuff since it is halal for her to share her wealth, but using the ‘obedience’ law does that mean you can expect her to obey that? Of course not!

You’d think it’s obvious but you fell into my trap.


There aren’t any scriptural evidence to suggest that a woman does have to cook and clean as well. Even the Ayah you posted talks about obedience in regards to:


‘Therefore the righteous women are Qanitat, and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard.’

You don’t have to listen to me. I’m just pointing out that in our long tradition of 1400 yrs the majority of scholars opinion is she doesn’t have to. Salafis believe that she does but even then believe that husbands shouldn’t see it as a religious duty since most scholars simply didn’t. It’s not my opinion. My opinion isn’t important.

You’re free to think that a woman has to cook and clean for you.

Also, how does it make sense that obedience does not include cooking and cleaning. What else is obedience good for?

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Therefore, my original point is that using provision as a mirror to cooking and cleaning is an incredibly weak analogy. Provision of wife is not disputed at all, whilst cooking and cleaning by most isn’t seen as the duty of a wife. Your best bet would be to use the forcing her to stop working analogy.

 

[attash]

Not just the Shafi school of thought. Nearly all of them apart from Hanafis and even then for Hanafis a man can’t get his wife who was raised with maids to cook, so it’s clear that for them, cooking and cleaning isn’t a religious duty for a wife unlike intimacy and not leaving the house without his permission.

So it’s really not even a case of it being one madhabs. It’s actually nearly all.

No it’s not as it’s going against the marriage contract. How is it halal for woman to do YOUR duty? Since you’re meant to look after your mother and family? You’re not allowed to burden your wife to give her extra work that was actually meant for you as son. The wife is only for him and not for his family. The fact that you think it’s halal shows you don’t have an in-depth understanding of the deen:

The wife is not obliged to serve her husband’s father, mother or any of his relatives; rather it is good manners, if she lives in the same house, to serve his parents. But obliging her to do that is not permissible.

https://islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/103426

What you fail to understand is that marriage is based on duties hence you can’t force a woman to do work that isn’t her duty. Example the only reason why Salafis believe a woman must cook and clean isn’t because of ‘obedience’ it’s because there is a Hadith of Fatima the Prophets daughter cooking and cleaning hence they argue since she used do it then it is the duty of all wives as well. They didn’t use the obedience argument for that.

This argument makes sense. I agree, the husband can't force his wife to do things that are his job.

It is as, you’re asking her to do something stupid. Might as well ask her to hop around and act like a kangaroo. You’re not a puppet master of a woman. The classical understanding of obedience is based on what is the duty of the wife. Hoping around like a fool isn’t her duty. Her duty isn’t to be your jester or clown. But then again you’re crazy enough to think a woman has to obey her husband in serving his family when it is in fact his duty.

I don't get the problem you have with tapping your head and hopping on one foot. Is it not fun?

Are you arguing that the vast majority of sheikhs aren’t taking the Quranic ayah into consideration and only you are?

You’re not a scholar and when nearly all the madhabs are in agreement, who are you exactly? You can say I follow the Salafi stance but you need to understand that the vast majority of them believe that cooking and cleaning isn’t a religious duty. Thats scholars who have memorized more Hadiths and have a holistic view. Show me a Hadith that says a woman has to cook and clean? If you try to use the ayah of obedience that falls short since there are many things that are halal but isn’t acceptable such as forcing a woman to give you money and the list goes on.

Shafis believe that and only them and even with in Shafis many don’t agree. Nothing similar to the idea of husbands not being able to force their wives to cook and clean which is the the view of the majority of classical scholars.

Who said the vast majority of sheikhs agree on this subject? Even the islamqa article you cited agrees with me on the issue of wives&housework.

My point isn't that wives have to cook and clean, my point is that they have to do it if their husbands ask them. The ayah and hadith evidence I presented that says the wife has to obey her husband is my proof. The plain meaning of those ayaat and ahaadith is that obedience is a general matter and it is not limited to specific things. The only exceptions are the obvious ones: things that contradict the command of Allah, His apostle, or your parents, things that result in the wife being harmed, and (as you pointed out) things that the husband is supposed to do himself. It is not my job to provide any more evidence than this. It is your job to show that household chores are an exception as well, using evidence from the Quran and sunnah, which you still haven't done.

So, you’re asking me to make taqlid of you? You’re human as well with an even lower understanding of Quran and Sunnah and you’re trying to interpret it yourself? Someone who doesn’t understand nuances and how things aren’t black and white? You literally think that a husband can force his wife to serve his family when all scholars disagree and how forcing your wife to do things for them is in fact actually harming her. She’s married to you, not the maid of your family. You’re a perfect example of how ‘obedience’ can be abused.

I'm not asking you to make taqlid to me, I'm asking you to make taqlid to the Quran and sunnah, neither of whom say that household chores are an exception to obedience.

You even fail to understand that forcing your wife to serve your mother is in fact similar to forcing her to pay for stuff and I’ll explain why, that is because you’re forcing her to do YOUR duty. It’s your DUTY to look after your mother. Not her. It’s akin to you making your wife pay for stuff since it is halal for her to share her wealth, but using the ‘obedience’ law does that mean you can expect her to obey that? Of course not!

You’d think it’s obvious but you fell into my trap.



There aren’t any scriptural evidence to suggest that a woman does have to cook and clean as well. Even the Ayah you posted talks about obedience in regards to:


‘Therefore the righteous women are Qanitat, and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard.’

That ayah mentioned an example of something the wife has to obey her husband in.This is not the only thing she has to do, as you and I both know.

You don’t have to listen to me. I’m just pointing out that in our long tradition of 1400 yrs the majority of scholars opinion is she doesn’t have to. Salafis believe that she does but even then believe that husbands shouldn’t see it as a religious duty since most scholars simply didn’t. It’s not my opinion. My opinion isn’t important.

You’re free to think that a woman has to cook and clean for you.

You don't have to listen to me either, but you have to listen to the Quran and sunnah

Therefore, my original point is that using provision as a mirror to cooking and cleaning is an incredibly weak analogy. Provision of wife is not disputed at all, whilst cooking and cleaning by most isn’t seen as the duty of a wife. Your best bet would be to use the forcing her to stop working analogy.

 

[Angelina]

This argument makes sense. I agree, the husband can't force his wife to do things that are his job.

Why does that not make sense to you and not cooking and cleaning? Historically, the whole house ect food would belong to the man. Hence, similarly to the way it wasn’t seen as a woman’s duty to look after his parents, it wasn’t seen as her duty to look after his home. Hence why many scholars argue that what she does is voluntary.

I don't get the problem you have with tapping your head and hopping on one foot. Is it not fun?

Who said the vast majority of sheikhs agree on this subject? Even the islamqa article you cited agrees with me on the issue of wives&housework.

Lol didn’t Islamqa make it clear that the vast majority do? I even highlighted that part, so why ignore?

If the husband knows that the majority of scholars say that it is not obligatory for the wife to serve her husband and take care of the house, I say that one of the benefits of this may be that he will not go to extremes and demand too much of his wife in this regard, and that he will not give her a hard time if she falls short, because what she is doing is not a duty according to the majority of jurists. However, even it is a duty according to some of them and this is what we think is more correct the fact that there is such a difference of opinion means that the husband has to look at what she is doing as something voluntary rather than obligatory,

Does a Wife Have to Cook and Clean? - Islam Question & Answer

It is the wife’s duty to serve her husband within the bounds of what is reasonable and as other wives who are like her serve husbands who are like him.

islamqa.info

Why ignore this? I know very well that Islamqa believe that women have to cook and clean and they use the Hadith about Fatima cooking. But even they admit that the vast majority of Jurists believe otherwise!

Duh i sited Islamqa as they even say that:

However, even it is a duty according to some of them and this is what we think is more correct the fact that there is such a difference of opinion means that the husband has to look at what she is doing as something voluntary rather than obligatory,

So even scholars that believe a woman must argue that men need to see it as something voluntary rather than a task that she must do our obedience.

My point isn't that wives have to cook and clean, my point is that they have to do it if their husbands ask them. The ayah and hadith evidence I presented that says the wife has to obey her husband is my proof.

The only exceptions are the obvious ones: things that contradict the command of Allah, His apostle, or your parents, things that result in the wife being harmed, and (as you pointed out) things that the husband is supposed to do himself.

I think their argument about cooking and cleaning is to do with the fact that it’s his duty to feed her and it’s his house? Similarly to how it’s his parents so he can’t force her to look after his parents?

It is not my job to provide any more evidence than this. It is your job to show that household chores are an exception as well, using evidence from the Quran and sunnah, which you still haven't done.

It was seen as an exception since classical scholars believed it wasn’t her duty and some even going as far as saying that if the wife refuses to cook he has to provide cooked food as it his job to ‘provide’. Also, the house isn’t her duty as it isn’t hers. It’s his house. He can talalq her and kick her out after three months. Hosing in the Sharia unlike the West isn’t shared. That’s why some scholars see it as voluntary and thus not her duty.

What’s interesting is that you’ll find classical and medieval Islamic scholars are the ones who mostly believed that a woman doesn’t have to cook and clean whilst the more modern view is that she should when asked.

I'm not asking you to make taqlid to me, I'm asking you to make taqlid to the Quran and sunnah, neither of whom say that household chores are an exception to obedience.

I can’t as we need the interpretations of scholars. Do you have a background in Hadith sciences or even the Quran? Do you have access to 6000 Hadiths and cross checking? No of course not. We’re lay people.

That ayah mentioned an example of something the wife has to obey her husband in.This is not the only thing she has to do, as you and I both know.

Okay, why is that men who lived near the time of the Prophet s.a.w who had more access to the deen, spoke fluent Arabic and have spent decades learning the deen and formalizing Hadiths and fiqh mostly all came to the same conclusion that a woman doesn’t have to cook and clean?

What is it that you have that they don’t? I mean in those days they certainly weren’t feminist and they had a lot of views against women that many modern people wouldn’t agree with. So what is it?

You don't have to listen to me either, but you have to listen to the Quran and sunnah

View attachment 290982

By saying that you’re implying that whole madhabs weren’t listening to Quran and Sunnah. Very silly take. Let’s not.

 

[attash]

Lol didn’t Islamqa make it clear that the vas majority do? I even highlighted that part, so why ignore?

If the husband knows that the majority of scholars say that it is not obligatory for the wife to serve her husband and take care of the house, I say that one of the benefits of this may be that he will not go to extremes and demand too much of his wife in this regard, and that he will not give her a hard time if she falls short, because what she is doing is not a duty according to the majority of jurists. However, even it is a duty according to some of them and this is what we think is more correct the fact that there is such a difference of opinion means that the husband has to look at what she is doing as something voluntary rather than obligatory,

Does a Wife Have to Cook and Clean? - Islam Question & Answer

It is the wife’s duty to serve her husband within the bounds of what is reasonable and as other wives who are like her serve husbands who are like him.

islamqa.info

Why ignore this? I know very well that Islamqa believe that women have to cook and clean and they use the Hadith about Fatima cooking. But even they admit that the vast majority of Jurists believe otherwise!

Duh i sited Islamqa as they even say that:

However, even it is a duty according to some of them and this is what we think is more correct the fact that there is such a difference of opinion means that the husband has to look at what she is doing as something voluntary rather than obligatory,

So even scholars that believe a woman must argue that men need to see it as something voluntary rather than a task that she must do our obedience.

The article didn't say the vast majority, it said the majority. There's a difference. If it was the vast majority, then islamqa wouldn't dispute this ruling.

it can’t be obedience in general. It’s halal to eat apples, and it’s halal to not eat it, can you tell your wife to eat an apple and she has to obey?

yes

It was seen as an exception since classical scholars believed it wasn’t her duty and some even going as far as saying that if the wife refuses to cook he has to provide cooked food as it his job to ‘provide’. Also, the house isn’t her duty as it isn’t hers. It’s his house.

What’s interesting is that you’ll find classical and medieval Islamic scholars are the ones who mostly believed that a woman doesn’t have to cook and clean whilst the more modern view is that she should when asked.

It is the duty of the wife to obey her husband.

I can’t as we need the interpretations of scholars. Do you have a background in Hadith sciences or even the Quran? Do you have access to 6000 Hadiths and cross checking? No of course not. We’re lay people.

I memorized the Quran, so I know that there is no verse that provides an exception for cooking and cleaning to the obedience rule. As for the ahaadith, I have not read all of them, but you'd expect any scholar that thinks cooking and cleaning is an exception to at least cite one. Currently, I'm only seeing one side of the debate cite hadiths to support their position.

Okay, why is that men who lived near the time of the Prophet s.a.w who had more access to the deen, spoke fluent Arabic and have spent decades learning the deen and formalizing Hadiths and fiqh mostly all came to the same conclusion that a woman doesn’t have to cook and clean?

Who said they all came to that conclusion?

What is it that you have that they don’t? I mean in those days they certainly weren’t feminist and they had a lot of views against women that many modern people wouldn’t agree with. So what is it?



By saying that you’re implying that whole madhabs weren’t listening to Quran and Sunnah. Very silly take. Let’s not.

I'm still waiting...

 

[Angelina]

This argument makes sense. I agree, the husband can't force his wife to do things that are his job.

You fell into my trap.

Quick question:

Why does that make sense to you that a man can’t get a woman to look after his mother but he can make her cook and clean? Historically, the whole house ect food would belong to the man. Hence, similarly to the way it wasn’t seen as a woman’s duty to look after his parents, it wasn’t seen as her duty to look after hishome also he is the one that has to provide this home fit for human conditions. Also it’s his duty to provide food. Hence why many scholars argue that what she does is voluntary. Also Maintenance is actually due on the husband, and services like cooking and cleaning etc. are really a form of maintenance.

If you can believe a man can’t use the obedient argument for what belongs to him like being mothers and sisters, why would the house be different? Example Islamqa never used the Obedience argument for that exact same reasoning. They used the argument that is indeed her duty. Not because her husband said it but because that’s what she’s meant to do as a wife!

Hence you can’t use the obedient argument. By agreeing that a woman can stop looking after a man’s parents, you’ve now walked into the fact that the house isn’t any different. If anything cooking and cleaning is a form of provision as it’s a service! Both aren’t her duties legally.

Btw, with regards to Islamqa saying majority and you correcting me by saying it isn’t the vast majority, you’re being petty. It is still the majority and they admit it.

I understand that you don’t agree with me but when you look at cooking and cleaning from the angle of provision and maintaince and how the maintenance of a house is duty of the duty of the owner and that Islamically the man is meant to provide a this, it’s clear how scholars can come to the conclusion that house chores are the exception with regards to obedience.

That’s why fiqh is so much more than just reading an Ayah. You have to cross check and the deen is holistic and you have to consider Hadiths.

 

[KillStreakIsCool]

The kids in here who think 30 years is too old to marry. Halkay ku nool yihiin kuwan? Under a rock? You graduate from college at 24 and in few years, you are 30. The fun hasn't even begun and you kids talk about Old age? For f*ck's sake

If she is younger than thirty, Anigu she is a child. Wouldn't consider her mature and worth of my time.

 

[attash]

You fell into my trap.

Quick question:

Why does that make sense to you that a man can’t get a woman to look after his mother but he can make her cook and clean? Historically, the whole house ect food would belong to the man. Hence, similarly to the way it wasn’t seen as a woman’s duty to look after his parents, it wasn’t seen as her duty to look after hishome also he is the one that has to provide this home fit for human conditions. Also it’s his duty to provide food. Hence why many scholars argue that what she does is voluntary. Also Maintenance is actually due on the husband, and services like cooking and cleaning etc. are really a form of maintenance.

If you can believe a man can’t use the obedient argument for what belongs to him like being mothers and sisters, why would the house be different? Example Islamqa never used the Obedience argument for that exact same reasoning. They used the argument that is indeed her duty. Not because her husband said it but because that’s what she’s meant to do as a wife!

Hence you can’t use the obedient argument. By agreeing that a woman can stop looking after a man’s parents, you’ve now walked into the fact that the house isn’t any different. If anything cooking and cleaning is a form of provision as it’s a service! Both aren’t her duties legally.

Btw, with regards to Islamqa saying majority and you correcting me by saying it isn’t the vast majority, you’re being petty. It is still the majority and they admit it.

I understand that you don’t agree with me but when you look at cooking and cleaning from the angle of provision and maintaince and how the maintenance of a house is duty of the duty of the owner and that Islamically the man is meant to provide a this, it’s clear how scholars can come to the conclusion that house chores are the exception with regards to obedience.

That’s why fiqh is so much more than just reading an Ayah. You have to cross check and the deen is holistic and you have to consider Hadiths.

What I’m saying is that a husband can’t have his wife take care of his parents for him, since that is his job stipulated by the Quran. The Quran didn’t say anything about it being obligatory for a man to clean his own house or cook his own food. In this case, he is allowed to have others do it for him who are under his authority such as his wife, children, or slaves. Or he could pay others to do it for him.

 

[Angelina]

What I’m saying is that a husband can’t have his wife take care of his parents for him, since that is his job stipulated by the Quran. The Quran didn’t say anything about it being obligatory for a man to clean his own house or cook his own food. In this case, he is allowed to have others do it for him who are under his authority such as his wife, children, or slaves. Or he could pay others to do it for him.

I

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[Odious Delirium]

Lads if you want your wife to cook and clean just put it in writing in the marriage contract that she has to do it and let her decides if she want to go ahead with that or not.

If she doesn't comply after coming to an agreement. Then just divorce her and marry someone who will comply to whatever specific request you have that you want done by your wife aslong as it's halal

I would advise both the guys and girls to not get married at all tho if your selfish.

 

[Angelina]

Lads if you want your wife to cook and clean just put it in writing in the marriage contract that she has to do it and let her decides if she want to go ahead with that or not.

If she doesn't comply after coming to an agreement. Then just divorce her and marry someone who will comply to whatever specific request you have that you want done by your wife aslong as it's halal

I would advise both the guys and girls to not get married at all tho if your selfish.

Erm most women will cook and clean especially in a traditional set up. Whilst you’re at work, what will she be doing? Staring into space? It’s a bit selfish of her for her not to unless you’re able to provide a maid. Marriage should be about love. No woman worth marrying will be comfortable with her husband working 10hrs and comes back from a long day. Marriage is about kindness.

On the flip side if yoh do have a miskeen wife that cooks and cleans and looks after the home, part of kindness is making sure you secure her future through creating savings for her. It’s not fair for you to expect her to be providing service for you when you can easily kick her out and replace her and she’ll be left homeless despite maintaining your home for decades.