Yeah, there was a thread a few months ago speculating about the existence of Somalis in Shewa.
Futuh al-Habasha: Somalis As Bedouins
- Thread starter Shimbiris
- Start date
Did you read my thread ( The final say on the origin of the word Somali ) ?
go read it !!!!
After you read it compare between my thread and his thread .
It looks like he is exactly rewriting my thread .
look how he is comparing between the meaning (arab) word and the meaning (somali) word .
In my thread ( The final say on the origin of the word Somali ) there was no discussion of my point .
From the discussions we could to find new knowledge that we couldn't see before.
In this forum ( somalispot ) there is an obvious pattern according to which members will participate in the thread if the person who wrote the thread is one of their acquaintances.
There is definitely a friend group bias (exclusive group/gang) on this forum (favoritism ) .
It's like who writes it, not what he wrote .
Unfortunately, this biased favoritism is what destroyed Somalia.
Somalis will not develop if we do not get rid of this hypocrisy .
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Northern Swordsman
Tawxiid Alle lahaw, Talo na Alle saaro.
You dropped a gem walal.
May Allah reward you for this insightful in depth analysis.
May Allah reward you for this insightful in depth analysis.
Ar waxan maxa waye niyaho, ar maad ilaahay ka baqtid. Coming out of your hiatus with a fire thread and a chunky one at that, we've let you cook but you've clearly cooked to much my friend kkk.
This thread is in line with what i've always assumed the name somali originally meant that is to say it being an occupational designation for pastoralist.
Why are you pretending you didn't read this in my thread ( The final say on the origin of the word Somali ) ?
When you read my previous topic, you did not show this enthusiasm and false flattery
.
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Could it be that the citizens refers to Somalis and others who were under the jurisdiction of the Imams and the land of the Somalis refers to areas specifically controlled by Somali tribes?
I say this because, at one point, Faqih states the Imam fought with a Somali tribe and he reduced their “cities” to ash. If the term Somali simply meant a nomadic person how was he able to destroy their “cities”?
I say this because, at one point, Faqih states the Imam fought with a Somali tribe and he reduced their “cities” to ash. If the term Somali simply meant a nomadic person how was he able to destroy their “cities”?
Garaad diinle
Stop it man jealousy ain't a virtue. Jokes aside i've already stated my opinion on this matter in one of my earliest threads on this site.Why are you pretending you didn't read this in my thread ( The final say on the origin of the word Somali ) ?
When you read my previous topic, you did not show this enthusiasm and false flattery
This is not a good look brother, you could be the most knowledgeable individual with the most mind-blowing facts but if in terms of personality you are not a likeable person, then the chance of other people contributing to your threads is very slim. All of us that are interested in Somali history pick up bits and pieces here and there, and don’t necessarily ‘credit’ the individual or the author we got it from unless we directly quote a past post that is fresh on our mind or are challenged to provide an excerpt from a source.
Shimbiris has been here a lot longer than either one of us, and the link between pastoralism and the name Somali was already being theorised long before most of us were born, so you are basically demanding credit for a theory that was already in existence long before your thread from December, 2023 existed. It comes over as petty, and would be as silly as Shimbiris demanding credit from you because he was doing posts with multi-coloured writing A YEAR before you signed up to Sspot.
Seriously brother, just contribute without expecting something in return. Validation only feeds the ego and pride blocks you from learning new things.
Dropping another bombshell on this thread.I did some digging about this matter to see if something registered in the available online archives -- what I found was validating, indeed. There seemed to have existed a Bah-Xarla group in the Awdal region. To give context to what "bah" means in the Somali clan context:
"Bah" in Somali is a common shared grouping supplementing uterine links, i.e., shared mother on top of shared father. In agnatic clan systems, weaker, larger family units can form closer collateral ties because their agnatic counterparts might be politically larger and more powerful. What the weaker do to strengthen their standing is they grow a supplementary unity based on a shared mother, not shared with the other stronger same-father descended groups, given these family units formed out of polygamous marriages. I imagine this can take form for many reasons, not only under the pressure of outside but to increase land and resources, political influence, even a way to fix internal disputes between the ones that share a mother, etc.
Here is a model for that:
B, C, and D share the same mother, so their descendants form a "bah" to grow stronger, for example, avoiding getting overshadowed by a stronger sibling sub-clan (A) that shares the same father lineage (X) yet has another mother. It is finding a genetic reason to establish a merger to grow stronger.
Going back to the Xarla thing with this in mind, bah-Xarla exists among Dir, once again appearing more than one way associated with the Dir:
That screenshot was taken from a General Survey Somaliland Protectorate 1944-1950, taken in Zeila and Borama district. One can see that Adawi Abdallah, Ali Abdallah, and Gedi Abdallah, all Ciise agnatic brothers, shared a uterine tie, i.e., the same mother who was Xarla. Their other brothers had Guragura and Forlaba mothers, respectively, so they formed other uterine ties. Now, this further builds the case that Xarla was Somali and those Abdallah Khaireh agnatic brothers had a mother highly likely under Dir, given what we know that they are under Ciise in Djibouti, while also here showing they even strengthened further with other Ciise clans by way of marriage. This bolsters the claim that Xarla lived among Dir deep in Somali places. Any notions of saying they are of Habash or non-Somali origin is long eliminated at this point -- entirely intellectually and historically irrelevant -- now we are only practically talking about an internal Somali matter.
I have more.
Another source claimed Xarla resided since old times in the land of Ciise:
The Japan Times 1972-01-10: Iss 26234 mentioning Harla and Yaroun being massacred by Ethiopians and designating them under Ciise:
Everything up to now is consistent with what my grandmother told me and what we know about them, proven consistently here, and this Japanese source from the early 70s again shows such proof. But let me go further.
Yaroun is another sub-clan of Ciise:
It all ties together consistently.
These are not some mythical people from a distant past lost in time. My family knew them, born and bred Somalis in Djibouti as Dir today. While talking with my mother about Djibouti, she described her childhood with information about the various groups in that country. Something that led me to this deeper digging. What started the whole conversation was very interesting and peculiar, but I think this is quite long.
Have you guys seen mention of a 'Sagara' tribe in Futuh led by Garad Din?
I'm almost certain it is Sagaaro and apparently Burton went past place called that in the same area.
I'm almost certain it is Sagaaro and apparently Burton went past place called that in the same area.
It's not jealousy walaal , I was just expressing my opinion .
There is no need for jealousy, as we are not known in this vast cyberspace .
In any case, I am sorry to you and the brother Shimbiris who started the topic .
all the best to you and to him .
Garaad diinle
Don't worry about it walaal i know you're a good person, things happens i understand, no bad feelings on my part so all's good. Your approach to somali history is new and unique and i really appreciated i believe language and etymology holds the key to a big part of our history. Keep up the good work jaalle.
We wuz Harla?I did some digging about this matter to see if something registered in the available online archives -- what I found was validating, indeed. There seemed to have existed a Bah-Xarla group in the Awdal region. To give context to what "bah" means in the Somali clan context:
"Bah" in Somali is a common shared grouping supplementing uterine links, i.e., shared mother on top of shared father. In agnatic clan systems, weaker, larger family units can form closer collateral ties because their agnatic counterparts might be politically larger and more powerful. What the weaker do to strengthen their standing is they grow a supplementary unity based on a shared mother, not shared with the other stronger same-father descended groups, given these family units formed out of polygamous marriages. I imagine this can take form for many reasons, not only under the pressure of outside but to increase land and resources, political influence, even a way to fix internal disputes between the ones that share a mother, etc.
Here is a model for that:
B, C, and D share the same mother, so their descendants form a "bah" to grow stronger, for example, avoiding getting overshadowed by a stronger sibling sub-clan (A) that shares the same father lineage (X) yet has another mother. It is finding a genetic reason to establish a merger to grow stronger.
Going back to the Xarla thing with this in mind, bah-Xarla exists among Dir, once again appearing more than one way associated with the Dir:
That screenshot was taken from a General Survey Somaliland Protectorate 1944-1950, taken in Zeila and Borama district. One can see that Adawi Abdallah, Ali Abdallah, and Gedi Abdallah, all Ciise agnatic brothers, shared a uterine tie, i.e., the same mother who was Xarla. Their other brothers had Guragura and Forlaba mothers, respectively, so they formed other uterine ties. Now, this further builds the case that Xarla was Somali and those Abdallah Khaireh agnatic brothers had a mother highly likely under Dir, given what we know that they are under Ciise in Djibouti, while also here showing they even strengthened further with other Ciise clans by way of marriage. This bolsters the claim that Xarla lived among Dir deep in Somali places. Any notions of saying they are of Habash or non-Somali origin is long eliminated at this point -- entirely intellectually and historically irrelevant -- now we are only practically talking about an internal Somali matter.
I have more.
Another source claimed Xarla resided since old times in the land of Ciise:
The Japan Times 1972-01-10: Iss 26234 mentioning Harla and Yaroun being massacred by Ethiopians and designating them under Ciise:
Everything up to now is consistent with what my grandmother told me and what we know about them, proven consistently here, and this Japanese source from the early 70s again shows such proof. But let me go further.
Yaroun is another sub-clan of Ciise:
It all ties together consistently.
These are not some mythical people from a distant past lost in time. My family knew them, born and bred Somalis in Djibouti as Dir today. While talking with my mother about Djibouti, she described her childhood with information about the various groups in that country. Something that led me to this deeper digging. What started the whole conversation was very interesting and peculiar, but I think this is quite long.
🫡
Garaad Awal
Zubeyri aka Targaryen of the Awalid Kingdom.
Harla were South Ethio-Semites hence the many South Ethio-Semitic loanwords found in NS.
Harla being Ethio Semitic is looking more dead in the water by the passing day. Any connection with them that predates the Oromo migrations had something to do with Somalis. Heavy doubt that Habesha like populations were found as far as maroodi jeex and the nuugaal valley.
Garaad Awal
Zubeyri aka Targaryen of the Awalid Kingdom.
Who said they lived in PL? PL has nothing to do with Adal. The Harla lived from Shewa to the modern Harar region and their influences are heavily felt in Fafaan,Sitti & Western SL
Kekekeke, praise from you is always a glowing endorsement, walaal. And thank you for the additions. All very interesting and good food for thought.
You say I cooked but I only lightly seared, walaal. This man @The alchemist came in here and deep fried the rest of the dish. Bringing in archaeological receipts... Bismillah. I knew several of you here would have things to add and I am not left dissappointed.
I recall what you're referencing. Good catch. Personally, I would not say it's much of a hiccup, however. Let me substitute in Bedouin wherever "Somali" is written and notice that it still pretty much makes sense:
It actually reads a lot like he's just subduing an unruly nomadic tribe (the Samaroon in this case), hence why they cause people trouble on the roads and loot and plunder as nomads are wont to do. "Somali" at the end of the day would probably designate a tribe or person that is mostly nomadic in lifestyle. Similar to how the "Sab" in Koonfur called the majority pastoral nomadic tribes "Somali" even though we know those tribes had settled farmers in their own ranks (I actually wanted to share a cool source outlining a lot about Hawiye settled farmers found in the Ogaden during the 18th or 19th century but lost the link. Gonna have to message the chap who originally gave it to me).
It also doesn't have to mean towns could not exist in a territory dominated by nomads. Bedouin "countries" or territories in neighboring Arabia were still littered with villages and towns. And we know through the 19th century that these Somali nomads themselves were fairly fluid when the situation called for it. Being mostly nomadic but flowing in and out of nomadism, towns and lifestyles like sailing at the drop of a hat when the need arose:
(quote by speke)
The Southern Ethiosemitic loans in Somali aren't solidly attributed to Harari or at all to Argobba, which are the ones you'd want if it really came from Southern Ethiosemites who were theoretically in our territories as some like to think. It's also not really dated and could have entered the Northern Somali dialects at any point, from what I know. Finally, what the Futuh shows (them not really seeming to appear in it or having any tribal connections with the Harla tribes mentioned) along with the utter lack of Southern Ethiosemitic genetic influences in Northwestern Somalis and what Alchemist points out about the archaeology really put a lot of dents in the idea that they somehow predated us in those areas or were there from very early on alongside us.
As for Harari in particular, I was not joking about how they seem to get their word for "city" itself from Somalis. Do you know what they historically called an entry way into Harar?
source: British Policy in ethiopia 1909-17 by Andrew Caplan
"Faras Magala"
It is, in my humble opinion, plausible that Somalis settled them into the town as the Nur Ibn Mujahid stories often go if they're seriously getting their word for city from Af-Soomaali. It also fits with how Abyssinian civilization, particularly Southern Ethiosemitic Abyssinian civilization, was at its core "a civilization without cities":
A Civilization Without Cities
Actually, we have records of Somalis mentioning Harlas and Harlas constructing things like towns and wells as far as Sanaag and Bari, walaal. I'd have to take the time to dig up the links but if you do some google book searching for a while you should stumble upon them yourself. I remember an cadaan mentioning that the Dhulbahante attributed some ruins even in Sool to them. They were seemingly everywhere from Galbeed to Bari. But not in Koonfur where, interestingly, those sorts of construction stories are often attributed instead to the "Ajuran".
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About this i've also suspected a similar thing. Some of the people if not all of them that he interviewed might actually be somalis. I've seen someone that collected a number of words all of whom are found in af somali mentioned in the futuh such as the word used for saddle which is kore/koore a somali name for a saddle.
As for bati del wanbara i actually think it's her authentic name/title and i have a good theory why she is named/titled as such but first let's look at the name. It's made out of three parts one is wanbara which is also a somali word and it's alternatively writing as gambar both meaning a seat.
Del/dil means victory in ethio-semitic languages and is used by royalties such as dil na'od an ethio-semitic ruler.
Finally there is speculation of how some somalis actually lived on the shewan plateau such warjih, galab and alula. We also have an oromo who tested positive for the somali subclade E-Y18629. He is from welega west of addis.
There is hints in futuh of a presence of somalis deep in modern day ethiopia there might be a whole hidden history we've yet to discover out there.
Farshaxan is af somali and it means to paint/painting/draw/drawing.
Another word I'd like to throw into the hat is the title "Garaad" which is used all over the book. @Idilinaa has in the past made a strong case for its inherently Somali roots:
It is obvious to anyone who even studies the etymology of the Somali language that Garaad has a Somali origin. It comes from the root etymology ''Gar'' which is the root construct of several legal and governance word constructs within the legal system of Xeer and the Somali language. Few examples i saw someone post elsewhere about the Xeer legal terminology, notice they all begin with ''Gar''
@KillStreakIsCool is spot on . Gar(Justice/Wisdom) + Aad (Move towards) = Garaad= One who moves towards or seeks Justice.
Some examples of other Somali word constructions using Gar-Garaad. From A Grammar of the Somali Language: With Examples in Prose and Verse by Kirk
I'd recommend going to the thread for more as well. Soomaali, Garaad, Webi, Koore... It's interesting how any non-Arabic words discernible in the book that aren't speaking in relation to Christian Xabashis are seemingly Somali. I think he really was mostly interviewing people who were Somali speakers. That would ostensibly include the Imam himself.
We should really get a skilled comparative linguist to read the original copy thoroughly. You'd be amazed how much they can elucidate. They're pretty much how we know that the Hyksos/Semites came to eventually dominate Egypt after the Hyksos migration because not long after the Hyksos come in you later start to see that Egyptian names suddenly start to look West-Semitic. From the highest Pharaoh to the lowest slave; Semitic names everywhere. I tried to do what they did in my own amateurish way but I bet a legit linguist would find even more.
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Step a side
VIP
am009133
Harla are sedentary Somalis. Somalis always lived in those regions you just mentioned and they still do as Agro pastoralists. Tribal map from the early 20th century.
Here the screenshot
Mashallah you guys really know your stuff. I can say it's been enlightening reading this stuff for the last couple of years since I've had my suspicions too. My question is why is the historiography so full of bull shit. I mean if you think about its illogical to attribute everything to these mythical ethiosemetic groups when the modern pouplations are so non-existent. The holes are way too big . Why is there barely any premodern ethiopian literature that is not bible commentaries ? Why is there no urbanism in medieval ethiopia? Why doesn't the historical record mention these southern ethiosemetic groups ? When compared to the fact that every pre19th century source shows the continuity between us and premodern somalis in customs and etymologies. Is it really just colonial erasure ? @Shimbiris @The alchemist
