June 26, Somali independence day. Not July 1

[fais]

jeegaanstani users are like robots fahankaa ku yar.

Warya! Stop eating hyena, that shit is rotting your brain

Your are from Gedo, should your anger not be towards Kenya, Al-shabab and all the other shit that's going on down there..

 

[Gantaal97]

A message to my SL brothers:

You guys regularly boast of being a protectorate rather than a colony, in that the UK took a hands-off approach to Somaliland.

If that is the case, wouldn't Somaliland be marginally more developed in 1960 than it was pre-colonisation?

And if that is the case, how could it have ever been a viable nation long-term.

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Somaliland was in fact a protectorate where clans ruled their own territories using Somali xeer unlike in the south where Italy completely took over the territory bringing it under its single rule from Xamar replacing somali clan territories with provinces under a colonial commissioner rule replacing the xeer with Italian colonial laws weakening the tribal connection in the territory that's why during the civil war in the south tribal elders were sidelined while in the north elders played huge role ending the animosity between the clans and bringing peace in the region and no political leader is above a tribal elder in Somaliland.

 

[Periplus]

Somaliland was in fact a protectorate where clans ruled their own territories using Somali xeer unlike in the south where Italy completely took over the territory bringing it under its single rule from Xamar replacing somali clan territories with provinces under a colonial commissioner rule replacing the xeer with Italian colonial laws weakening the tribal connection in the territory that's why during the civil war in the south tribal elders were sidelined while in the north elders played huge role ending the animosity between the clans and bringing peace in the region and no political leader is above a tribal elder in Somaliland.

If the clans ruled their own territories then that means Somaliland had 1850 level development in 1960.

You have proven my point again.

 

[Periplus]

Greater Somali nation was actually british idea in the 40s where they invited a group of somalis to form SYC before being named SYL to bring their propsals and ideas to the british and international community but there wasa lot of somalis in mogadishu who wanted to be mannged by the italians and the pro italian riots in mogadishu in 1948 made britain to leave and transfer the territory under Italian UN trustee for 10 years.

The SYL came up with the idea but the British supported it.

In January 1948, commission representatives arrived in Mogadishu to learn the aspirations of the Somalis. The SYL requested and obtained permission from the military administration to organize a massive demonstration to show the commission delegates the strength of popular demand for independence. When the SYL held its rally, a counter demonstration led by Italian elements came out to voice pro- Italian sentiment and to attempt to discredit the SYL before the commission. A riot erupted in which fifty-one Italians and twenty-four Somalis were killed. Despite the confusion, the commission proceeded with its hearings and seemed favorably impressed by the proposal the SYL presented: to reunite all Somalis and to place Somalia under a ten-year trusteeship overseen by an international body that would lead the country to independence.

France favored the colony's return to Italy; Britain favored a formula much like that of the SYL, but the British plan was thwarted by the United States and the Soviet Union, which accused Britain of seeking imperial gains at the expense of Ethiopian and Italian interests. Britain was unwilling to quarrel with its erstwhile allies over Somali well-being and the SYL plan was withdrawn. Meanwhile, Ethiopia strongly pressured Britain through the United States, which was anxious to accommodate Emperor Haile Selassie in return for his promise to offer the United States a military base in Ethiopia

As you can see, the SYL presented the proposal to the international community but everyone disagreed with it. France had a conflict of interest as it colonised Djibouti whereas the US wanted Haile Selassie's support and the latter wanted the Ogaden.

The SYL should have offered the US a maritime and land base in Somalia to counter Haile's offer. It would have also made Somalia much more stable and probably would have prevented Siyad Barre coming to power.

Haji Cigaal AUN the father of Somaliland came out against the union after he was released from prison after the fall of the regime and called for the end of the union between the two territories and he was the one who designed our current system and the constitution that put an end to the question of reunification.

There are numerous quotes from SNM leaders while Cigaal was president stating that he was pro-reunification if Somalia could get out of anarchy.

Do not twist the narrative.

 

[Gantaal97]

If the clans ruled their own territories then that means Somaliland had 1850 level development in 1960.

You have proven my point again.

It didn't proven anything even during the union there was two legal systems in place the british one in the north and Italian in the south and also if we didn't unite the country would have developed just like now for the last 30 years

 

[Gantaal97]

The SYL came up with the idea but the British supported it.





As you can see, the SYL presented the proposal to the international community but everyone disagreed with it. France had a conflict of interest as it colonised Djibouti whereas the US wanted Haile Selassie's support and the latter wanted the Ogaden.

The SYL should have offered the US a maritime and land base in Somalia to counter Haile's offer. It would have also made Somalia much more stable and probably would have prevented Siyad Barre coming to power.





There are numerous quotes from SNM leaders while Cigaal was president stating that he was pro-reunification if Somalia could get out of anarchy.

Do not twist the narrative.

Cigaal AUN was the father of Republic and he is the one who created the nation you're the one twisting the narrative to please your bs view.
On the point of SYL they were corrupt politician who wanted to rule the country for themselves and also weren't enthusiasts for somaliweyn

 

[fais]

The SYL came up with the idea but the British supported it.





As you can see, the SYL presented the proposal to the international community but everyone disagreed with it. France had a conflict of interest as it colonised Djibouti whereas the US wanted Haile Selassie's support and the latter wanted the Ogaden.

The SYL should have offered the US a maritime and land base in Somalia to counter Haile's offer. It would have also made Somalia much more stable and probably would have prevented Siyad Barre coming to power.





There are numerous quotes from SNM leaders while Cigaal was president stating that he was pro-reunification if Somalia could get out of anarchy.

Do not twist the narrative.

SYL had nothing to do with proposing the Union stop talking nonsense..

And if you got so much to say why don't you use time on finding out why Somalia is such a shit show and Somaliland is not?

 

[Periplus]

SYL had nothing to do with proposing the Union stop talking nonsense..

I have just linked a quote from the US Library of Congress dossier on Somali independence that states the SYL made the union with the British.

Read before you post.

And if you got so much to say why don't you use time on finding out why Somalia is such a shit show and Somaliland is not?

SNM had common sense that Aideed did not. One wanted to protect their people and move forward whereas Aideed wanted to pillage Somalia.

I am not a hater, SNM were correct to leave in 1991 and focus on themselves.

 

[Periplus]

Cigaal AUN was the father of Republic and he is the one who created the nation you're the one twisting the narrative to please your bs view.

Below are just a few quotes proving my point

"SNM wasn't supporting Egal himself, it was supporting a kind of government that would be established in Somaliland. It was a move to support the people of Somaliland, and to back the intentions SNM had for the future of Somaliland... Egal was head of the government which SNM supported during the demobilisation period. After that, Egal, with bad intentions, began fighting with the SNM, because he saw SNM was uncompromised regarding Somaliland's independence. He was aware that it may block his way back to Somalia unification."

"Yes. When he says he is for independence, it is for local consumption only. He tells the people here one thing, but in his speeches elsewhere he has clearly declared that Somalia will unite one day. He says we will talk to the southerners when they make their home clean and negotiate with them"

These are from interviews with SNM leadership just before Egal died.

On the point of SYL they were corrupt politician who wanted to rule the country for themselves and also weren't enthusiasts for somaliweyn

A lot of people in SYL were corrupt but some like Abdirasak Haji Hussein, Aden Adde, Sharmarke were known to be incorruptible. This is well documented.

The SYL was founded on the idea of Somaliweyn. Without Somaliweyn, there was no SYL.

 

[Gantaal97]

Below are just a few quotes proving my point

"SNM wasn't supporting Egal himself, it was supporting a kind of government that would be established in Somaliland. It was a move to support the people of Somaliland, and to back the intentions SNM had for the future of Somaliland... Egal was head of the government which SNM supported during the demobilisation period. After that, Egal, with bad intentions, began fighting with the SNM, because he saw SNM was uncompromised regarding Somaliland's independence. He was aware that it may block his way back to Somalia unification."

"Yes. When he says he is for independence, it is for local consumption only. He tells the people here one thing, but in his speeches elsewhere he has clearly declared that Somalia will unite one day. He says we will talk to the southerners when they make their home clean and negotiate with them"

These are from interviews with SNM leadership just before Egal died.





A lot of people in SYL were corrupt but some like Abdirasak Haji Hussein, Aden Adde, Sharmarke were known to be incorruptible. This is well documented.

The SYL was founded on the idea of Somaliweyn. Without Somaliweyn, there was no SYL.

Sxb his actions speak for themselves like the implantation of SL constitution after 2001 referendum that an end of the union and the creation of SL shilling stopping the use of old somali shelling making the region to relay on itself away from Xamar.

 

[Periplus]

Sxb his actions speak for themselves like the implantation of SL constitution after 2001 referendum that an end of the union and the creation of SL shilling stopping the use of old somali shelling making the region to relay on itself away from Xamar.

It is clear that he believed that SL should remain independent until Somalia rebuilds. I agree with this sentiment.

If you do not want to believe that, no problem. But do not fool yourself and think you are achieving Egal's agenda. He is turning in his grave.

 

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

It is clear that he believed that SL should remain independent until Somalia rebuilds. I agree with this sentiment.

If you do not want to believe that, no problem. But do not fool yourself and think you are achieving Egal's agenda. He is turning in his grave.

What you have regurgitated in this thread is the most ahoristic pile of horsecrap I have ever come across. The amount of lies you fit into a handful of posts is an achievement - congratulations.

I won't entertaining the unfathomable number of lies you have spewed in this thread, my fellow brothers from the Jamhuriyada Barakaysan have done a great of that already. I will pick up on the quoted point, as I cannot allow such utter horse manure about the father of our great Republic, to be left unchallenged, .

What you want us to believe is that all of Somaliland misunderstood the true feelings Cigaal, their most beloved president of 9 years, (AUN) had towards Somaliland's independence, and that you, some random hateful Daarood with zero knowledge of Somaliland history and politics, have the secret inside knowledge of what was really in Cigaal's heart?


The words of a couple of disgruntled ex-SNM don't mean jackshit. He was notorious for his disagreements with some of the ex-SNM, including some of those closest to him like Muuse Biixi. Most of them continued to love him, but some like a ill disciplined candabuur would run to journalists and write up negative stories trying to discredit Cigaal.

We have a record of 9 years of what Cigaal wrote, said and believed. Somaliland is what it is today because of the incredibly fight the SNM put up stopping your Uncle Afweyne, and then the amazing peacemaking and state building that the Guurti achieved prior to 1993. However, it became the viable Independent nation it is today because of what Cigaal built in the decade he led the country. He ensured that a reunion with Somalia was never again a possibility. He did that because he was an ardent believer in the need for a successful, vibrant and independent Somaliland, so that his people would never again be subject to rule from anyone else but themselves.

 

[Periplus]

What you have regurgitated in this thread is the most ahoristic pile of horsecrap I have ever come across. The amount of lies you fit into a handful of posts is an achievement - congratulations.

I won't entertaining the unfathomable number of lies you have spewed in this thread, my fellow brothers from the Jamhuriyada Barakaysan have done a great of that already. I will pick up on the quoted point, as I cannot allow such utter horse manure about the father of our great Republic, to be left unchallenged, .

What you want us to believe is that all of Somaliland misunderstood the true feelings Cigaal, their most beloved president of 9 years, (AUN) had towards Somaliland's independence, and that you, some random hateful Daarood with zero knowledge of Somaliland history and politics, have the secret inside knowledge of what was really in Cigaal's heart?


The words of a couple of disgruntled ex-SNM don't mean jackshit. He was notorious for his disagreements with some of the ex-SNM, including some of those closest to him like Muuse Biixi. Most of them continued to love him, but some like a ill disciplined candabuur would run to journalists and write up negative stories trying to discredit Cigaal.

We have a record of 9 years of what Cigaal wrote, said and believed. Somaliland is what it is today because of the incredibly fight the SNM put up stopping your Uncle Afweyne, and then the amazing peacemaking and state building that the Guurti achieved prior to 1993. However, it became the viable Independent nation it is today because of what Cigaal built in the decade he led the country. He ensured that a reunion with Somalia was never again a possibility. He did that because he was an ardent believer in the need for a successful, vibrant and independent Somaliland, so that his people would never again be subject to rule from anyone else but themselves.

We are having an intelligent debate here. If you cannot check your emotions at the door then fadlan naga bax.



I have and will continue to provide sources for my claims. If you want me to provide a source for my claim, ask me. However, this polemic pseudo-patriotic vitriol will not win an argument.

 

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

We are having an intelligent debate here. If you cannot check your emotions at the door then fadlan naga bax.



I have and will continue to provide sources for my claims. If you want me to provide a source for my claim, ask me. However, this polemic pseudo-patriotic vitriol will not win an argument.

Not one iota of what you have written is intelligent. You're just another hatefilled Darood trying to sound intelligent. We can spot you people a mile away.


You say you have sources.
You said the following:

It is clear that he believed that SL should remain independent until Somalia rebuilds

Give us legitimate sources where Cigaal ever argued/said this.
Hearsay about what some random Ex-SNM supposedly said about Cigaal isnt a legitimate source. You might as well use your cuqdad ridden uncles' stories about other tribes as "sources" in that case.

 

[Mckenzie]

Greater Somali nation was actually british idea in the 40s where they invited a group of somalis to form SYC before being named SYL to bring their propsals and ideas to the british and international community but there wasa lot of somalis in mogadishu who wanted to be mannged by the italians and the pro italian riots in mogadishu in 1948 made britain to leave and transfer the territory under Italian UN trustee for 10 years.

Haji Cigaal AUN the father of Somaliland came out against the union after he was released from prison after the fall of the regime and called for the end of the union between the two territories and he was the one who designed our current system and the constitution that put an end to the question of reunification.

Mussolini believed in a Greater Somalia (see La Grande Somalia) alot more than Britain ☠. They invaded Somaliland, parts of Djibouti, parts of NFD and the Ogaden to even make it a reality. Remember the Italians hated Ethiopia alot more than the English, who merely tolerated them and tossed Selassie a bone because they cared more about Oil rich Libya and keeping the Soviets away in agreement with their ol buddy USA. Italy's catholicism was not only conflicting with the ailing orthodox Empire of Ethiopia, the Fascists were near leaning towards Communists who would have sided with Somalia against Ethiopia and her hereditary allies the US.

The SYL was right to ask for a trusteeship under the 4 Powers instead of Britain or Italy if Independence could not be granted immediately. Britain 100% would have sold us out to Ethiopia as they had done already in the Ogaden, Haud, Reserve Area and passing NFD onto Kenya. The fact they gave away their possessions of Eritrea AND the Ogaden when they could have bargained to keep the Ogaden under the BMA and possibly unite it with the North just shows to me the English will always deal with us in bad faith.

The most realistic reason why Italy was invited back was because Italy still had commercial rights in Somalia despite not administering it directly for a number of years. The rest of the World decided giving attention to Somalia was not worth it and hence all 5 territories went back to their old Colonial masters.

 

[Mckenzie]

Not one iota of what you have written is intelligent. You're just another hatefilled Darood trying to sound intelligent. We can spot you people a mile away.


You say you have sources.
You said the following:



Give us legitimate sources where Cigaal ever argued/said this.
Hearsay about what some random Ex-SNM supposedly said about Cigaal isnt a legitimate source. You might as well use your cuqdad ridden uncles' stories about other tribes as "sources" in that case.

It's not the first time i heard this, Galaal an advocate for Somaliland stated on Horn Cable TV his fact finding mission in the North during the early 90s prelude to the Djibouti shir put him in front of Cigaal, who rejected the Djibouti meeting because he said the blood of the people is still wet and needs healing. He specifically mentioned Cigaal offering his services to reconcile Mahdi and Caydiid but Isaaq threatened his life if he rejoined the South

End of the day Cigaal is a Politician and it's not beyond comprehension he could have seen this as a chance to secure a lot of power for himself.

 

[Dharbaaxo Jin]

It's not the first time i heard this, Galaal an advocate for Somaliland stated on Horn Cable TV his fact finding mission in the North during the early 90s prelude to the Djibouti shir put him in front of Cigaal, who rejected the Djibouti meeting because he said the blood of the people is still wet and needs healing. He specifically mentioned Cigaal offering his services to reconcile Mahdi and Caydiid but Isaaq threatened his life if he rejoined the South

End of the day Cigaal is a Politician and it's not beyond comprehension he could have seen this as a chance to secure a lot of power for himself.

Here's the problem, saaxiib. Outside of what Galaal himself said, this is all hearsay and 90% of hearsay is typically BS. When it comes to Somalis, 99.9% of hearsay is BS.

Having said that, I can see how what Galaal said about the 1991 Djibouti conference could be possibly true. We're talking within a month of Somaliland re-establishing its independence. Somaliland's status at that time was very precarious. Several of the clans were at war with eachother, the new government was powerless, there was no real army. I can believe that with the circumstances being such, there were people, Cigaal included, who might still have considered a united Somalia being an option.
What is likely an outright lie is anyone threatening to kill Cigaal. Firstly, even back then he was an incredibly beloved man in Somaliland - anyone threatening to kill him would have been risking their own lives and a certain full scale civil war. Beyond that, from SL's first ever president till now, many SL people have gone south, most of them have come back and none have ever been harmed.

Post 1993 though, i'd find it hard to believe that Cigaal harboured any such feelings. If someone has legitimate sources showing otherwise, I will hold my hand up and say I was wrong.

 

[Mckenzie]

Here's the problem, saaxiib. Outside of what Galaal himself said, this is all hearsay and 90% of hearsay is typically BS. When it comes to Somalis, 99.9% of hearsay is BS.

Having said that, I can see how what Galaal said about the 1991 Djibouti conference could be possibly true. We're talking within a month of Somaliland re-establishing its independence. Somaliland's status at that time was very precarious. Several of the clans were at war with eachother, the new government was powerless, there was no real army. I can believe that with the circumstances being such, there were people, Cigaal included, who might still have considered a united Somalia being an option.
What is likely an outright lie is anyone threatening to kill Cigaal. Firstly, even back then he was an incredibly beloved man in Somaliland - anyone threatening to kill him would have been risking their own lives and a certain full scale civil war. Beyond that, from SL's first ever president till now, many SL people have gone south, most of them have come back and none have ever been harmed.

Post 1993 though, i'd find it hard to believe that Cigaal harboured any such feelings. If someone has legitimate sources showing otherwise, I will hold my hand up and say I was wrong.

If he was incredibly loved there wouldn't have been the Maryalool clan wars as plenty of Isaaq opposed him in his early years, i can show you Keydmedia clips of SNM officials in Xamar denouncing Somaliland. I think Cigaal is indeed a great state builder and it was easy to poetify him - the man who signed away the State of Somaliland now taking the State back. He certainly jumped at the opportunity considering his minor or near non existent contribution to the war efforts against Siad. I see him as another Abdullahi Yusuf, he banked on his reputation among his clansmen to become a 'regional leader' and would have rejoined a stable Somalia in an honourable arrangement. Atleast this is consistent with the behaviour of a politician like Cigaal. Politicians change ideologies all the time, the only thing consistent is their ambition to stay in the game really.

 

[Mckenzie]

@The Crowe this is a passage from a UN security council paper from as late as 1999. I have read this a long time ago but forgot about it for a while. You see Cigaal was keeping his options open like expected of any politician. You have to admit he was a larger than life character and very different from the current crop of Isaaq politicians. He was writing letters asking countries not to lift the arms embargo in Somalia because the old Soviet weapons were rusty and would stop working whilst new weaponry only continued the bloodshed.

The previous hard-line position taken by the "Somaliland" leadership on the issue of secession of the territory appears to have softened. Mr. Egal told my Representative, David Stephen, on 24 November 1997, that, given the peaceful environment established there, "Somaliland" should be given special status as an autonomous territory until such time as the leaders of "the South" were in a position to negotiate a mutually acceptable future. Such a status, he felt, could allow "Somaliland" access to international financial institutions as well as to other international organizations, such as the International Telecommunication Union.

Nevertheless, Mr. Egal has on occasion continued to demand sovereign status for "Somaliland". In his letter of 3 January 1998, he suggested that France, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, the United Kingdom and the United States of America should form a panel to organize the formation of a state in the Somali-inhabited territories in the Horn of Africa. Not to do this, he claimed, would make any call for the territorial integrity of Somalia unrealistic; as an alternative, "Somaliland" demands recognition of its sovereignty and resents vehemently any equation of itself with the factions of Somalia.

During a visit to Egypt and Yemen, between the end of February and 12 March 1999, Mr. Egal proposed that "Somaliland" should assist the clans in the "South" in reaching peace and subsequently enter into negotiations on an appropriate formula for reuniting the country. While his proposal reportedly resulted in some tension with hard-line elements in "Somaliland" adamantly opposed to any dialogue with the rest of Somalia, the reactions of some of the neighbouring countries have been positive. The Yemeni Prime Minister was delighted about what he viewed as the softening position of Mr. Egal, and thought that with "Puntland" joining hands with "Somaliland", the first step could be taken towards the resuscitation of Somalia. At Cairo, the Deputy Assistant Minister for Bilateral African Relations described the meetings with Mr. Egal to my Representative as positive and said that Egypt considered that Mr. Egal had a role to play in reuniting the country. Between 27 June and 2 July 1999, Mr. Egal paid a visit to Nairobi at the invitation of President Daniel Arap Moi and had several meetings with him

 

[Gantaal97]

If he was incredibly loved there wouldn't have been the Maryalool clan wars as plenty of Isaaq opposed him in his early years, i can show you Keydmedia clips of SNM officials in Xamar denouncing Somaliland. I think Cigaal is indeed a great state builder and it was easy to poetify him - the man who signed away the State of Somaliland now taking the State back. He certainly jumped at the opportunity considering his minor or near non existent contribution to the war efforts against Siad. I see him as another Abdullahi Yusuf, he banked on his reputation among his clansmen to become a 'regional leader' and would have rejoined a stable Somalia in an honourable arrangement. Atleast this is consistent with the behaviour of a politician like Cigaal. Politicians change ideologies all the time, the only thing consistent is their ambition to stay in the game really.

Maryalool was the name given to Cigaal forces which consisted of HA HJ Arap iyo Samroon against GX forces who occupied the capital hargeysa and the second lagest city Burco and controlling Berbera port and headed by Tuur AUN who was unionist residing in Xamar which his ousting from the presidency wasn't a welcoming for GX clan especially HY.