Land of Punt: the mysterious land

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Menelik III

Menelik III

Prince Abubu said:
1) Lolwut? Sudan wasn't Cushitic? What nonsense is this? The nobiin language may be nilotic, but apparently the people are of Cushitic stock. Languages shift, just like you and I are writing in English, does that mean we are both Anglo-Saxons?

2) Kush, or more specifically the Kerma Civilisation which centred on Nubia and coincided with Ancient Egypt was a Cushitic speaking culture.

Kerma

3) The Beja, a Cushitic speaking people originate and have always lived in the red Sea coast of Sudan and Northern Eritrea.

4) The Nobiin language, has been found to have a lot of Highland East Cushitic loanwords for tools and animals suggesting the earlier population were a Cushitic speaking civilisation that shifted to nilotic speakers.
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The Nobiin language has loans words from cushtic languages because they neighbor them, not because they had a language shift. Language shifts create a substratum that is clearly foreign to the new language being adopted and would not create loan words.

The Beja language isn't even fully regarded as being a cushtic language by linguists. The Beja along with some minority clans in north east Sudan are the only cushtic groups (assumed) in the entirety of Sudan. The focal point of the kush kingdom is in present day north central Sudan where no such cushtic language is spoken.

Sudan has always been inhabited by nilo saharan (not Nilotic) but Sudanic peoples as its name implies.
 
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DeathWish

DeathWish

Hotep and Hebrew Israelite
Grant said:
Professor,

From your link:

"[The Egyptians] reached Punt by seagoing boat and found it a country very unlike their own. The representations of houses, animals, and plants suggest a location in northeast Africa along the Red Sea coast, possibly the region of modern Eritrea, although a locale farther inland has also been suggested (169)."

"The two best possibilities are Eretria and Somalia with Eretria so far gaining the most widespread acceptance."

The map doesn't even cover Somalia. It covers the Ethio-Semitic-settled areas of the North that are now rich in haplotype "T", not the E1b1b of the Cushitic Samaales. It also includes parts of Eritrea, the Sudan and Yemen.

Your link also does not include the recent archaeological finds for the Gash culture in the Sudan.

:comeon:You are way out of your league, with all the evidence stacking up against you. Even your own, dated link, points to Eritrea. Just wait for the academics to incorporate the Gash material in their analyses. :russsmug:
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The Gash Culture could have been part of Punt or Nubia. What we do know is that the Gash Culture region is not where Queen Hatshepsut anchored to find the high-quality myrrh. I've said this to you before, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan, and Egypt all have a similar and lower quality frankincense than Somalia. The British archaeologists have found Myceneanean pottery from the 1500s BC. That is more than enough proof that the region was trading with other countries in the time that Punt was still a civilization. One of the Egyptian Pharaohs of the New Kingdom put Punt at the most South Eastern part of the areas known to the Egyptians (which is Somalia).

You also mentioned the T haplogroup. The Ancient Egyptians are known to have an E haplogroup, not T. The Somali haplogroup (E-v32) which originated from Southern Egypt itself can also be used as evidence of how both the Somalis and the Egyptians came from a region known as Ta-Seti.

Furthermore, it is the Egyptians who claim that we (Somalia) are the Land of Punt.

upload_2017-8-10_19-46-26.png

http://maktaba-amma.com/?p=12625

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selim_Hassan

The Egyptians teach their students that Punt was Somalia. @government who lived in Egypt said this.


You keep talking about how the Gash Culture will disprove that Somalia was Land of Punt. This is a very short sighted way of thinking. Somalia is basically untouched when it comes to archeology. When Somalia becomes stable enough to do its own archaeology, I am sure that the archaeologists will find some incredible artifacts that will change the way the world views both Ancient Egypt and Ancient Somalia.
 
G

Grant

VIP
DeathWish said:
The Gash Culture could have been part of Punt or Nubia. What we do know is that the Gash Culture region is not where Queen Hatshepsut anchored to find the high-quality myrrh. I've said this to you before, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan, and Egypt all have a similar and lower quality frankincense than Somalia. The British archaeologists have found Myceneanean pottery from the 1500s BC. That is more than enough proof that the region was trading with other countries in the time that Punt was still a civilization. One of the Egyptian Pharaohs of the New Kingdom put Punt at the most South Eastern part of the areas known to the Egyptians (which is Somalia).

You also mentioned the T haplogroup. The Ancient Egyptians are known to have an E haplogroup, not T. The Somali haplogroup (E-v32) which originated from Southern Egypt itself can also be used as evidence of how both the Somalis and the Egyptians came from a region known as Ta-Seti.

Furthermore, it is the Egyptians who claim that we (Somalia) are the Land of Punt.

View attachment 26634
http://maktaba-amma.com/?p=12625

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selim_Hassan

The Egyptians teach their students that Punt was Somalia. @government who lived in Egypt said this.


You keep talking about how the Gash Culture will disprove that Somalia was Land of Punt. This is a very short sighted way of thinking. Somalia is basically untouched when it comes to archeology. When Somalia becomes stable enough to do its own archaeology, I am sure that the archaeologists will find some incredible artifacts that will change the way the world views both Ancient Egypt and Ancient Somalia.
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DeathWish,

The Dir and the Habar Garhajis are "T".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T-M184

Selim Hassan worked and wrote on excavations at Giza. He had no special knowledge of Somalia.

You are likely confused because of the ancient names of Sudan.

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa86

"The area between the first and fourth cataracts is known to the Egyptians as Cush. To the Greeks, from Homer onwards, all the known people living south of Egypt are called Ethiopians (inhabiting the areas of modern Sudan and Ethiopia). Later again Sudan as far south as Khartoum becomes widely familiar under the Latin name Nubia. The whole region is rich in gold mines, and the name probably derives from the word for gold (nub in Mahasi, though this is only one among the many dialects of Nubia past and present)."

The Gash port was between Tokor and Port Sudan on the Red sea coast. The port of Adulis, which was later associated with Aksum, also serviced this area during the Punt period:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adulis

"A pair of fragments of glass vessels were found in the lowest layers at Adulis, which are similar to specimens from the 18th Dynasty of Egypt"
Hatshepsut belonged to the 18th dynasty. Mycenae was not Egypt, and nothing comparable from Egypt has ever been found in Somalia..

The archaeology of the Gash area is also in it's infancy, but the connections to Egyptian trade are obvious and extensive. No such findings have been made for Somalia, despite extensive surveys by a good number of archaeologists. The so-called "Egyptian" artifacts from Somaliland have yet to be verified or dated and remain suspect.
 
G

Grant

VIP
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NourUgaas

NourUgaas

Menelik III said:
The Nobiin language has loans words from cushtic languages because they neighbor them, not because they had a language shift. Language shifts create a substratum that is clearly foreign to the new language being adopted and would not create loan words.

The Beja language isn't even fully regarded as being a cushtic language by linguists. The Beja along with some minority clans in north east Sudan are the only cushtic groups (assumed) in the entirety of Sudan. The focal point of the kush kingdom is in present day north central Sudan where no such cushtic language is spoken.

Sudan has always been inhabited by nilo saharan (not Nilotic) but Sudanic peoples as its name implies.
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Beja is part of the Cushitic branch of the Afroasiatic family, constituting the only member of the Northern Cushitic subgroup. As such, Beja contains a number of linguistic innovations that are unique to it, as is also the situation with the other subgroups of Cushitic (e.g. idiosyncratic features in Agaw or Central Cushitic). Hetzron (1980) argues that Beja therefore may comprise an independent branch of the Afroasiatic family. However, this suggestion has been largely ignored by the linguistic community. The characteristics of Beja that differ from those of other Cushitic languages are instead generally acknowledged as normal branch variation. These unique features are also attributed to the fact that the Beja language, along with the Saho-Afar dialect cluster, are the most conservative forms of Cushitic speech.

Zaborski, Andrzej (1988). Fucus - "Remarks on the Verb in Beja". John Benjamins Publishing. p. 491. ISBN 902723552X. Retrieved 30 September2017.

Frawley (ed.), William (2003). International Encyclopedia of Linguistics: AAVE-Esperanto. Vol. 1. Oxford University Press. p. 405. ISBN 0195139771. Retrieved 30 September 2017.

Allan R. Bomhard, John C. Kerns (1994). The Nostratic Macrofamily: A Study in Distant Linguistic Relationship. Walter de Gruyter. p. 24. ISBN 3110139006. Retrieved 26 September 2017.





Due to its linguistic innovations, Robert Hetzron (1980) argued that Beja may constitute an independent branch of the Afroasiatic family. Hetzron's suggestion was arrived at independently, and was criticized or rejected by other linguists (Zaborski 1984 & 1997; Tosco 2000; Morin 2001).

Hetzron, Robert (1980). "The limits of Cushitic". Sprache und Geschichte in Afrika. 2: 7–126.

Ekkehard Wolff, Hilke Meyer-Bahlburg (1983). Studies in Chadic and Afroasiatic linguistics: papers from the International Colloquium on the Chadic Language Family and the Symposium on Chadic within Afroasiatic, at the University of Hamburg, September 14-18, 1981. H. Buske. p. 23. ISBN 3871186074. Retrieved 10 November 2017.

Zaborski, Andrzej (1984). "Remarks on the Genetic Classification and Relative Chronology of the Cushitic Languages". In James Bynon. Current Progress in Afro-Asiatic Linguistics. Third International Hamito-Semitic Congress. pp. 127–135.

Morin, Didier (2001). "Bridging the gap between Northern and Eastern Cushitic". In Zaborski, Andrzej. New Data and New Methods in Afroasiatic Linguistics. Robert Hetzron in memoriam. Otto Harassowitz. pp. 117–124.




Don't ever repeat this nonsense again. There is almost unanimous agreement that Beja is Cushitic.
 
landheer

landheer

It may further be urged that the northernmost area, what is now the Eritrean coast, probably constituted the most frequently visited African section of Punt. The area's northerly location, and consequent relative proximity to Egypt, would have given its trade a significant edge over that of more distant areas, such as the Somali country. The Ethiopian borderlands, By Richard Pankhurst, p.4

Time, it should be emphasised, was of the essence. The Trade Winds dictated that ships from Egypt, sailing at perhaps 30 miles a day, had to travel during the three or so summer months, June to August, when the wind blew southwards, and had to complete their trading enterprise, doubtless no rapid affair, by November, when the winter winds began to blow in the opposite direction. Southbound vessels probably needed about a month to reach the northern Eritrean area, about the same time again to arrive at the coast opposite Aden, and a further month to reach Cape Guardafui (in Somalia). The southerly winds would by then be abating. It would therefore appear doubtful whether Egyptian commercial navigators could have easily sailed much further in the time permitted to them by nature. The Ethiopian borderlands, By Richard Pankhurst, p.4

Furthermore Ancient Egyptian inscriptions seem to suggest a geographic linkage between Punt and Kush, as the following inscription taking from Solem from the time of Amenhotep III demonstrates:
"When I turn my face to the south....I cause the chiefs of wretched Kush to turn thee...when I turn my face to thee the countries of Punt bring all the pleasant sweet woods of their countries...." Daily life of the Nubians, by Robert Bianchi, page 126

One of the most significant information of late that makes a very strong case that Punt was a kingdom neighboring upon Kush Kingdom (and one that disproves it being in Yemen or as distant as Somalia or Tanzania) is with the recent 2003 arechological discovery that shows Kush, along with Punt and other neighboring kingdoms joined in force to invade and sucessufully defeat the Ancient Egyptians.

"The tomb belonged to Sobeknakht, a Governor of El Kab, an important provincial capital during the latter part of the 17th Dynasty (about 1575-1550BC).The inscription describes a ferocious invasion of Egypt by armies from Kush and its allies from the south, including the land of Punt, on the southern coast of the Red Sea. It says that vast territories were affected and describes Sobeknakht’s heroic role in organising a counter-attack.The text takes the form of an address to the living by Sobeknakht: “Listen you, who are alive upon earth . . . Kush came . . . aroused along his length, he having stirred up the tribes of Wawat . . . the land of Punt and the Medjaw. . .” It describes the decisive role played by “the might of the great one, Nekhbet”, the vulture-goddess of El Kab, as “strong of heart against the Nubians, who were burnt through fire”, while the “chief of the nomads fell through the blast of her flame”. Tomb reveals Ancient Egypt’s humiliating secret
 
James Dahl

James Dahl

VIP
Considering subsequent history, I'd imagine Punt was the area around Adulis. The sea beyond the Bab al Mandeb is rough and Egyptians didn't have very good ships, mostly ships that would do well on the Nile like barges or small river boats. The southern Sudanese red sea coast is very harsh desert and the Afar coast beyond Zula is also very harsh desert.

There is a nice area around Beylul and Assab further into Afar territory but this area is the port for the Danakil Depression, there are no trade goods here that the Egyptians would have been interested in, the main export of this region is bricks of salt mostly traded overland.

The only candidate really is Zula or Adulis, that was the Land of Punt and also where the Aksumite Empire originated from.
 
UpRightDown

UpRightDown

Gone.
Daamet, or Dmt for short was a kingdom during 900 BC. Some stories say that Saba and Daamet even became one kingdom because of very close relationships. Thats why Amharic and the habesha are Semitic.

They had ties to Nubia in the North and Eygpt. Until in 100 Bc the Aksum empire dominated by have the Ethiopian Highlands and the coasts of the Red Sea, like a notable port city Saylac. Until the Muslims took it over.

Daamet to my knowledge I don't know what they traded to the Eygptians. It is known that the daamet region had Mrryh and Frankincense.
 
SuldaankaDadka

SuldaankaDadka

James Dahl said:
Considering subsequent history, I'd imagine Punt was the area around Adulis. The sea beyond the Bab al Mandeb is rough and Egyptians didn't have very good ships, mostly ships that would do well on the Nile like barges or small river boats. The southern Sudanese red sea coast is very harsh desert and the Afar coast beyond Zula is also very harsh desert.

There is a nice area around Beylul and Assab further into Afar territory but this area is the port for the Danakil Depression, there are no trade goods here that the Egyptians would have been interested in, the main export of this region is bricks of salt mostly traded overland.

The only candidate really is Zula or Adulis, that was the Land of Punt and also where the Aksumite Empire originated from.
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I realize this is from a while ago but this post is littered with assumptions and faulty logic. So by your thinking the land of punt was in a certain place because the ancient Egyptians thousands of years ago didn’t want to venture into territory that TODAY maybe “hard” to get to or where the waters are “rough”?

If I believe that the land of my ancestors or the land of my deities is in California and I’m coming from Ohio that means I’m going to stop in Nevada because it’s hard to keep going? If I know where I’m going im going to go there or not even start. It makes no sense to stop at a random place. My point is that what is important is where the land of punt was and not wether it was hard to get there lol. These kinds of things were very important to the ancient Egyptians. You seem to think that the location of certain ancient areas should be decided by where it was most convenient to get to, which is a very strange and spurious argument.
 
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