Letter To Islamists

[DR OSMAN]

The argument for secularism is confusing when you ignore the different cultural backgrounds.
By trying to fit europes experiences and culture into something quite different you will not understand whats going on.

The church was opposed to science and progress and had a stranglehold of the people and lands ,
the only way to progress was to destroy the churchs power and then relegate the role of religion into just private affairs.
Islam has no church and was never anti-science of progress, and there was never a clergy or organization.

So the arguments against secularism are meaningless,
we never had rule by priests, in a way most muslim states historically were secular.

You are right in that aspect early islamic caliphates were totally secular, they didn't have the same experience as Christianity, heck even multiple religions were flourishing side by side something unheard of in christendome. There was a clear separation between the state where the amir handled worldy affairs using worldly wisdom and knowledge and the imams handled spiritual matters and stayed there. Other then the few times the khawarij rose up, things were pretty straight forward!!!

 

[offensive bias]

The Armenian Genocide I guess was just normal to you right? Have you actually read the non muslim accounts of early jihad?

Maybe you think there were no christian or jewish records of the arab invasion and what they did. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/earlysaw.html

Yes in the context of the Ottoman Empire and the balkans in general, Genocides are normal.
Its the normal state of affairs and they happened frequently.
There where 7 genocides the victims were muslim, the last major one was the island of crete.
One day the greeks woke up and decided to wipe out their nieghbours Rawanda style.
The thing is the Armenian genocide was even properly organized itwas seen as a way to neautralize a rebeling population that was working alongside a foriegn invasion.
The Armenians died in the process of moving them away from the border and into concentration camps, justlike the british did to the boers and the Kenyans did in the NFD .

why bring islam into this?
The Ottoman Empire was not even run by muslims since 1908, for the ten years before the "genocide" the Young Turks were in charge.
Infact the 3 pashas were ruling as a triumvirate.
The 3 pashas Enver , Jamal and Talaat were all athiests /agnostics and even more anti-islam than Mustafa kamal.

 

[DR OSMAN]

Yes in the context of the Ottoman Empire and the balkans in general, Genocides are normal.
Its the normal state of affairs and they happened frequently.
There where 7 genocides the victims were muslim, the last major one was the island of crete.
One day the greeks woke up and decided to wipe out their nieghbours Rawanda style.
The thing is the Armenian genocide was even properly organized itwas seen as a way to neautralize a rebeling population that was working alongside a foriegn invasion.
The Armenians died in the process of moving them away from the border and into concentration camps, justlike the british did to the boers and the Kenyans did in the NFD .

why bring islam into this?
The Ottoman Empire was not even run by muslims since 1908, for the ten years before the "genocide" the Young Turks were in charge.
Infact the 3 pashas were ruling as a triumvirate.
The 3 pashas Enver , Jamal and Talaat were all athiests /agnostics and even more anti-islam than Mustafa kamal.

Check out the battle for broken hill in australia, pakistani and afghanis did a jihad attack in the name of the ottoman empire in 1915. It's obvious they still were around, or who else were these people pledging allegiance too? But your claiming the ottomans ended in 1908!!!

http://theconversation.com/history-...le-of-broken-hill-to-the-sands-of-syria-32146

The attack in outback New South Wales came only a few weeks after Sheikh-ul-Islam, the Ottoman Turkish Empire’s primary religious leader, declared a jihad (or holy war) on behalf of the government, urging his followers to take up arms against Great Britain and the Allies on November 14, 1914.

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

Who is pretending they were pacifists? They colonized the balkans and brutally ruled them,
but ethnic cleaning and just exterminating people is a christian and western thing, the Ottomans did allot of horrible crimes
but wiping out people was just alien to their culture.
Attaturk was from a western background and was not religous, so was inonu hes right hand man, and the majority of the turkish leaders were secular and western.

So when they massacred the greeks and ethnically cleansed them they were following established western procedure.

for your information, bulgaria was 40% muslims they were ethnically cleansed , large parts of Romania,
Serbia and macedonia as well. Even the Caucusus.

Everytime the ottomans lost a battle, the christian civilians procedeed to exterminate their muslim neighbors rawanda style.

Your general point is correct, but I can't accept that ethnic cleansing and genocide are a Western invention. According to some hadiths the Prophet (PBUH) expelled the Jews of Yathrib because one Jew molested a Muslim woman. It's a bogus hadith because collective punishment is not justified, and the Prophet would not commit an injustice, but nevertheless such things are believed by gullible folks who worship Prophet Bukhari.

Every society has a history of exterminating and expelling undesirables. Before the Dutch colonised South Africa, the Zulus exterminated the Bantus and drove them out before they in turn fell victim to the same treatment by the Boers. Humans are the same everywhere: they're genocidal maniacs.

Read the Old Testament. It's full of genocide, and they were middle eastern, not white.

 

[offensive bias]

Check out the battle for broken hill in australia, pakistani and afghanis did a jihad attack in the name of the ottoman empire in 1915. It's obvious they still were around, or who else were these people pledging allegiance too? But your claiming the ottomans ended in 1908!!!

http://theconversation.com/history-...le-of-broken-hill-to-the-sands-of-syria-32146

The attack in outback New South Wales came only a few weeks after Sheikh-ul-Islam, the Ottoman Turkish Empire’s primary religious leader, declared a jihad (or holy war) on behalf of the government, urging his followers to take up arms against Great Britain and the Allies on November 14, 1914.

Wow didnt know about broken hill. lol.

I was saying that as of 1908 the Ottoman Empire was just a fiction, there was nothing islamic about it.
Sultan Abdelhamid was the last true sovereign Sultan. He even tried a counter coup to take back power in 1909 but it failed.
The army was totally infiltrated by young turks.
The 3 pashas themselves made a coup on their own party which was a bunch of westernized and naive idiots believing in democracy and shit like that.
The 3 pashas ran a tight ship, and assumed full dictarorial powers.
The Sultan was a rubber stamp.
The call to jihad was a cynical attempt to use what remained of Ottoman influence on the muslim world..

the 3 pashas and most of the top generals and administration were either athiest/agnostic and anti-islam or were lukewarm towards islam and heavily westernized in culture. I would be surprised if you found an officer or even mid level clerk or official in the goverment that prays the 5 prayers and doesnt drink.
What little remained of any practicing muslims in government were purged after the failed counter coup in 1909,
but they were already a minority even before the rise of the young turks.

The Ottomans from the 1840-1900 were secular and westernized and even more liberal than allot of European countries in law.
for example prostitution was legalized and regulated by government, brothels had to be registered and have regular health checks and pay taxes. Homosexuality was de-criminalized in 1853, while you could still get jailed for it in Russia and most of eastern Europe.

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

The argument for secularism is confusing when you ignore the different cultural backgrounds.
By trying to fit europes experiences and culture into something quite different you will not understand whats going on.

The church was opposed to science and progress and had a stranglehold of the people and lands ,
the only way to progress was to destroy the churchs power and then relegate the role of religion into just private affairs.
Islam has no church and was never anti-science of progress, and there was never a clergy or organization.

So the arguments against secularism are meaningless,
we never had rule by priests, in a way most muslim states historically were secular.

I hear people say that Islam has no clergy all the time, but we have sheikhs and ulama. Can't see the difference between them and Christian ministers. Sure they're not as infallible as the Pope, but its still a clergy.

As for we not having a history of anti-science, you may care to know that Muslim thinkers came up with evolution on the tenth century, eight centuries before Darwin, but Saudi brainwashed fools are still disbelieve evolution. There have been lots of cases like that. Wadaads are not qualified to address physics, chemistry, or biology. When they have done without proper training, it has been a disaster for the ummah.

 

[offensive bias]

Your general point is correct, but I can't accept that ethnic cleansing and genocide are a Western invention. According to some hadiths the Prophet (PBUH) expelled the Jews of Yathrib because one Jew molested a Muslim woman. It's a bogus hadith because collective punishment is not justified, and the Prophet would not commit an injustice, but nevertheless such things are believed by gullible folks who worship Prophet Bukhari.

Every society has a history of exterminating and expelling undesirables. Before the Dutch colonised South Africa, the Zulus exterminated the Bantus and drove them out before they in turn fell victim to the same treatment by the Boers. Humans are the same everywhere: they're genocidal maniacs.

Read the Old Testament. It's full of genocide, and they were middle eastern, not white.

Genocide is not a western invention but it can be identified as a western phenomena, of course muslims did massacres but it was the exception not the rule. Muslim adminstrations had the view that its better to make use of populations and tax them instead of wiping them out.
If you like to drink once in a while are you identified as an alcohol? but surely someone who is drunk all the time and is never far from a drink would be an alcoholic right..

Genocide is a western practice they have throughout history been the ones that practice it the most,
its their "thing"...

 

[offensive bias]

I hear people say that Islam has no clergy all the time, but we have sheikhs and ulama. Can't see the difference between them and Christian ministers. Sure they're not as infallible as the Pope, but its still a clergy.

As for we not having a history of anti-science, you may care to know that Muslim thinkers came up with evolution on the tenth century, eight centuries before Darwin, but Saudi brainwashed fools are still disbelieve evolution. There have been lots of cases like that. Wadaads are not qualified to address physics, chemistry, or biology. When they have done without proper training, it has been a disaster for the ummah.

i see it as a good thing.
Islam is the most dis-organized religion outside of shamanism.
There is no central authority and anyone who has authority has to gain the respect of the people.
If a wadaad talks some nonesense you do not have to respect him or even continue to listen to him.

thats the beauty of it.;

as an avowed anarchist , i cannot accept any form of clergy.

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

Half our medicine contain some form of alcohol. Tell that hoyo not to give her kid cough syrup when their sick, cause thats full of alcohol. These people are clearly stupid, alcohol has many benefits, just don't go and get blind drunk and have alcohol poisoning like what they used to do back in the day!!! Again this is up to people to decide themselves not regulated by the state or religion!!! These same people will chew khat all day which is like ICE and then cry about some guy smoking hashish or drinking alcohol!!!

So we are all alcoholics after all. No wonder I felt dizzy as a kid.

Yeah, lots of Somalis fret about gelatine products whilst blithely unaware they are downing the forbidden grape each time they sip Benalyn or however you spell it. They demonize pigs as though it were some evil animal. As if it's the poor thing's fault Allah made it that way. Just because you can't eat it doesn't mean it's innately bad. It comes back to the superstitious terror people have of xaram things. I've heard it said that pigs eat their own feces without any evidence. Some bird species do eat horse shit because it contains lots of wheat, but birds are not xaram. Many Wadaads have forgotten how to think rationally. They've turned religion into superstition

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

Genocide is not a western invention but it can be identified as a western phenomena, of course muslims did massacres but it was the exception not the rule. Muslim adminstrations had the view that its better to make use of populations and tax them instead of wiping them out.
If you like to drink once in a while are you identified as an alcohol? but surely someone who is drunk all the time and is never far from a drink would be an alcoholic right..

Genocide is a western practice they have throughout history been the ones that practice it the most,
its their "thing"...

Once in a while kulaha. Is there something you wanna tell us about your imbibing habits? Sheikh Bidaar Wanagsan won't judge. We're a tolerant crowd here.

The two biggest genocides of the West are Hitler's and the Conquistadores', and they were separated by hundreds of years. The others were small beer , if you'll pardon the expression, given your bibulous habits. Muslim ones tend to follow each other rapidly. Think of the East Time genocide so soon after the Armenian, after which the poor Yazidis got it in the neck.

Whitey blaming does not a good historian make. All humans, Westerners, Easterners, Orientals and Occidentals, are racist savages when they want to be. If Africans had a written script pre-European colonization, we'd discover what we know about other record keeping civilizations: their bands of men went around poking sharp objects in each other, drinking fresh milk from the vanquished women's bosoms, mounting the barnyard animals, and singing how sweet and glorious it is. Men, especially unemployed young men = savages.

 

[offensive bias]

Once in a while kulaha. Is there something you wanna tell us about your imbibing habits? Sheikh Bidaar Wanagsan won't judge. We're a tolerant crowd here.

The two biggest genocides of the West are Hitler's and the Conquistadores', and they were separated by hundreds of years. The others were small beer , if you'll pardon the expression, given your bibulous habits. Muslim ones tend to follow each other rapidly. Think of the East Time genocide so soon after the Armenian, after which the poor Yazidis got it in the neck.

Whitey blaming does not a good historian make. All humans, Westerners, Easterners, Orientals and Occidentals, are racist savages when they want to be. If Africans had a written script pre-European colonization, we'd discover what we know about other record keeping civilizations: their bands of men went around poking sharp objects in each other, drinking fresh milk from the vanquished women's bosoms, mounting the barnyard animals, and singing how sweet and glorious it is. Men, especially unemployed young men = savages.

do you really want a body count?
I am quite high right now so some of my cognitive faculties are not optimum,
if you want i can give your a body count.

if you want numbers why dont you consider the 30-40 % of the balkan population that suffered genocide
we are talking about at least 3 million people here, and the Ottomans had to deal with about the same number of refugees and survivors
many of them women who were gang raped .
The current president of Turkey Erodoan is not even a turk or anatolian, he is a muslim georgian a decendent of the mingrelians
1/3 f the muslim georgians escaped to anatolia, another third survived in the mountains while the last were massacred by the christians those survivors in the mountains make up about 10% of georgias population.

I was talking about the mindset of the west which is racist and pre-desposed towards genocide.

as for african civilizations we dont need written records most of the mcefene the period of blood is from oral records
and the bantus in southern africa went full genocide,
but this was a rare event in their 2000 year history, most of it was intermarriage and trade alongside a migration.

 

[offensive bias]

how about Sicily in Italy it was muslim for 300 years and since the muslims dont force covversion only about 1/3 of the population was muslim at the time of the norman invasion.
muslims were lucky they had fredrick barborrosa as king who spoke arabic like a native and was a scholar as well as a warrior.
His son and hier had the church whispering in his about the abomination that muslims were and he decided to put them in concentration camps his grandson decided that having muslims in his land was a curse so he totally wiped them out hundreds of thousands wiped out..

sicily was pretty tame to be honest.

spain was were the real shit happened,

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

how about Sicily in Italy it was muslim for 300 years and since the muslims dont force covversion only about 1/3 of the population was muslim at the time of the norman invasion.
muslims were lucky they had fredrick barborrosa as king who spoke arabic like a native and was a scholar as well as a warrior.
His son and hier had the church whispering in his about the abomination that muslims were and he decided to put them in concentration camps his grandson decided that having muslims in his land was a curse so he totally wiped them out hundreds of thousands wiped out..

sicily was pretty tame to be honest.

spain was were the real shit happened,

Are you talking about the same Sicily and Spain that Arabs invaded and subjugated for hundreds of years? Are you surprised that invaders are not welcomed with flowers and chocolate? As somebody once said, nobody likes armed missionaries. You do know the Crusades were a response to the Arab conquest of the Christian middle east?

When Arabs spread Islam peacefully as in Indonesia, everybody converted, but when they invaded like Spain, they were met with a counter-jihad. 10% of Egypt is still Christian because of the bitter legacy of Arab invaders. Look at what's happening to Rohyngans today: the Buddhists are saying they have to protect Burma lest Muslims take it over like they took over Afghanistan where Muslim invaders destroyed the Buddhist community. The Taliban blew up Buddha statutes in Bamiyan. People have a long memory.

 

[TekNiKo]

Subxanakkah ya cadiim these folks are crazy. Secularism is absolutely haram, remember in the Quran those who rule by other than the Law of Allah are disbelievers

 

[Bidaar Wanagsan]

Subxanakkah ya cadiim these folks are crazy. Secularism is absolutely haram, remember in the Quran those who rule by other than the Law of Allah are disbelievers

Allah's shariah is secularism, you fucking murtad. Try to keep up.

What part of Laa Ikraaha Fil Diin don't you understand?

 

[DR OSMAN]

Subxanakkah ya cadiim these folks are crazy. Secularism is absolutely haram, remember in the Quran those who rule by other than the Law of Allah are disbelievers

Repeat and Regurgiating what someone else told you doesn't make it true. If evil is not to exist, how can someone be tested? the first paramount quality that separates humans and other creations is the freedom, the other creatures of allah don't have freedom. You will need to explain how islam can test us without full freedom for good and evil!!! I would like your explanation and make it logical not something just regurgitated from ibn taymiyah!!!!

 

[TekNiKo]

Allah's shariah is secularism, you fucking murtad. Try to keep up.

What part of Laa Ikraaha Fil Diin don't you understand?

So if someone commits thievery should we not cut off his hand?

No lashes for the adulteress?

 

[DR OSMAN]

So if someone commits thievery should we not cut off his hand?

No lashes for the adulteress?

Should we slave people today? what about should we fight with swords because it's haram to use anything other then what the quran says goodbye to guns. OOPS i forgot shabab has ak.47!!!! its funny you will take modernity where it suits you and reject it where it doesnt.

There is no-way in the world that chops hands off, except radicals, no muslim state even does that anymore. The issue is about freedom of other religions, freedom to disbelieve, freedom to do as one pleases as long as they are not harming anyone!!! that's the challenges today.

 

[TekNiKo]

Repeat and Regurgiating what someone else told you doesn't make it true. If evil is not to exist, how can someone be tested? the first paramount quality that separates humans and other creations is the freedom, the other creatures of allah don't have freedom. You will need to explain how islam can test us without full freedom for good and evil!!! I would like your explanation and make it logical not something just regurgitated from ibn taymiyah!!!!

You are free to commit adultery or drink alcohol in the privacy of your own homes. Doesn't mean the religion tolerates selling alcohol or new breweries or opening up nightclubs. Islam commands us all to enforce the good and prevent evil, this is the rulers job.

BTW LA Ikra fi deen ayat only applies to non Muslims. Islam literally means submission, one who submits and is humble

 

[TekNiKo]

Should we slave people today? what about should we fight with swords because it's haram to use anything other then what the quran says goodbye to guns. OOPS i forgot shabab has ak.47!!!! its funny you will take modernity where it suits you and reject it where it doesnt.

There is no-way in the world that chops hands off, except radicals, no muslim state even does that anymore. The issue is about freedom of other religions, freedom to disbelieve, freedom to do as one pleases as long as they are not harming anyone!!! that's the challenges today.

Swords are a long knife and a gun is simply the advanced version of bow and arrow. You are comparing religious tenets with tools, a false analogy.

God would've banned slavery if it were necessary but He didn't

Either accept the Quran as a time immemorial book that is perfect. Or stop claiming Islam