Maay vs Maxaa?

[James Dahl]

I've read that already, the 20kya identification is literally based on pottery shards and alleged similarity of Eyle pottery. This is too thin to base any kind of identification on.

I haven't read the first one you link to but the summary doesn't mention Eyle and you are making a connection that isn't there. You are making the following logical jumps:

In ancient times people lived in Somalia prior to the current population

You have decided these are San people, despite San people being a modern ethnic group from South Africa and not an ancient people lost in time

San identification based on click sounds, except that many Cushitic languages have click sounds

Eyle you have decided are San people, who you have also decided are the same as the ancient people, who you ALSO decided were displaced by Cushitic people.

The jumps from one to the other, to the next are not logical they are based on some weird belief you have about aboriginal populations and you just use confirmation bias to move from one point to the next and fill in the gaps in your head.

It's not good enough to just hand wave away all the problems with your theory there are gigantic holes that are tens of millenia wide that you are just glossing over like they're nothing.

This isn't evidence this is just documents.

 

[James Dahl]

To explain why the 20kya connection is ridiculous, let me remind you that 14kya the Bur Heybe area was a true desert like the Erg of the sahara. No one lived in Somalia 14kya ago, it could not sustain human life. Whoever lived in Somalia 20 thousand years ago left there millenia later as the desert advanced, probably migrated far, far away, and are absolutely not the Eyle.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...he-present-day-left-and-during_fig1_268077616

 

[Grant]

To explain why the 20kya connection is ridiculous, let me remind you that 14kya the Bur Heybe area was a true desert like the Erg of the sahara. No one lived in Somalia 14kya ago, it could not sustain human life. Whoever lived in Somalia 20 thousand years ago left there millenia later as the desert advanced, probably migrated far, far away, and are absolutely not the Eyle.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...he-present-day-left-and-during_fig1_268077616

You certainly didn't get much out of your reading.

Buur Heybe was a refugium.

https://usm.maine.edu/sites/default...Range Site, Buur Hakaba, southern Somalia.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/public...nter-gatherer_adaptations_in_southern_Somalia

 

[Grant]

I've read that already, the 20kya identification is literally based on pottery shards and alleged similarity of Eyle pottery. This is too thin to base any kind of identification on.

I haven't read the first one you link to but the summary doesn't mention Eyle and you are making a connection that isn't there. You are making the following logical jumps:

In ancient times people lived in Somalia prior to the current population

You have decided these are San people, despite San people being a modern ethnic group from South Africa and not an ancient people lost in time

San identification based on click sounds, except that many Cushitic languages have click sounds

Eyle you have decided are San people, who you have also decided are the same as the ancient people, who you ALSO decided were displaced by Cushitic people.

The jumps from one to the other, to the next are not logical they are based on some weird belief you have about aboriginal populations and you just use confirmation bias to move from one point to the next and fill in the gaps in your head.

It's not good enough to just hand wave away all the problems with your theory there are gigantic holes that are tens of millenia wide that you are just glossing over like they're nothing.

This isn't evidence this is just documents.

I don't think the Eyle are San. The Khoe separated from the San 100 KYA and it is this group that seems to be involved in the transmission of pastoralism to South Africa. The Khoe carry E-M293 and E3b1-M35, nailed down in this paper to E3b1f-M293,

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/105/31/10693.full.pdf

. "In this article, we have investigated Y-chromosomal data from pastoral, agricultural, and hunter-gatherer populations in both eastern and southern Africa, to explore the possibility of demic diffusion of agropastoral practices during the Holocene. Previously, Arredi et al. (7) suggested that a subset of E3b1- related Y chromosomes were associated with a demic diffusion of the Neolithic culture within northern and eastern Africa. Although representative subclades of E3b1-M35 are broadly distributed across Africa and Europe, reaching informative frequencies in many instances, a paraphyletic subset of chromosomes, E3b1-M35*, has a more restricted distribution. Frequencies of E3b1-M35* 25% are primarily found in samples from eastern African populations, including: the Hema in northeastern Democratic Republic of Congo; the Maasai in Kenya; and the Wairak, Datog, Sandawe, and Burunge of Tanzania (8–11). Paragroup E3b1-M35* is also found at moderate frequencies in Ethiopia and Somalia (8). Within southern Africa, the Khwe (Kxoe) and !Kung of Namibia and Angola, respectively, show high to moderate frequencies of M35*. Additionally, E3b1-M35* Y-chromosomes are scattered throughout Europe and northern Africa at very low frequencies (8, 12). The relatively high frequency of M35* in both eastern (e.g., Sandawe, Datog, Maasai) and southern (e.g., Kxoe) African populations is intriguing given previous studies showing substantial isolation between the two regions (10, 11, 13, 14). Jointly, these studies suggest two temporally distinct migration events between the regions. The earlier event has been dated at 30,000 years ago and may have involved people with Khoisan linguistic affiliations moving into southern Africa, as evidenced by the Y-chromosome A and B clades [supporting information (SI) Fig. S1] (10, 13, 14) and mtDNA L0d clade (10). The second event involves the migration of Bantu-speaking agropastoralists from eastern Africa into southern Africa 1,500 years ago (15). Here, we report a Y-chromosome-specific polymorphism that defines Y-chromosome haplogroup E3b1f-M293, accounting for many of the previous E3b1-M35*s. We generated Ychromosome M293 SNP and microsatellite data for 13 populations of eastern and southern Africa to test the possibility of a pastoralist migration between these regions. Given its estimated age (below); the M293 locus is informative regarding migrations and demographic events occurring during the Holocene in Africa. ...."we estimated a maximum age of 2,700 ya ( 0.6, n 10) with a standard error (SE) of 1,100 y. Although a rough estimate, subject to several caveats, the restricted M293 diversity among the !Kung and Kxoe suggests a relatively recent migration of individuals with M293 into southern Africa."

I think the Eyle are probably some Khoe relative. The Khoe themselves left some place north of Tanzania before the Bantu expansion and miraculously made it with their herds through a tsetse-free route all the way to South Africa. Their sheep came from the Levant.

 

[Apollo]

I don't think the Eyle are San. The Khoe separated from the San 100 KYA and it is this group that seems to be involved in the transmission of pastoralism to South Africa. The Khoe carry E-M293 and E3b1-M35, nailed down in this paper to E3b1f-M293

E-M239 (a descendant of the Northeast African E-V1515 / E-M35 lineage) in the pastoral Khoi is from that 3,100 YBP tested South Cushitic agropastoralist population.

Moreover, this lineage originated in the Red Sea region of the Horn. It is a Neolithic lineage.

I am getting tired of repeating these same facts to you.

Lasty, the Eyle have less indigenious East African ancestry than ethnic Maxaa Somalis.

Maxaa Somalis have more of a right to claim descent towards those 20 KYA sites than foreigner/exogenous (Bantu) admixed Eyles with less HOA ancestry.

 

[Grant]

E-M239 (a descendant of the Northeast African E-V1515 / E-M35 lineage) in the pastoral Khoi is from that 3,100 YBP tested South Cushitic agropastoralist population.

Moreover, this lineage originated in the Red Sea region of the Horn. It is a Neolithic lineage.

I am getting tired of repeating these same facts to you.

Lasty, the Eyle have less indigenious East African ancestry than ethnic Maxaa Somalis.

Maxaa Somalis have more of a right to claim descent towards those 20 KYA sites than foreigner/exogenous (Bantu) admixed Eyles with less HOA ancestry.

This is the first you have mentioned E-M239, and you have yet to give haplotypes or direct data for the Eyle.

Christopher Ehret (The Eastern Horn of Africa, 1000 BC to 1400 AD in Ali Jimale Ahmed's The Invention of Somalia) seems to be the expert in "population replacement", the use of which phrase you started here, stating a" population replacement event"occurred in the North.

Ehret starts with six populations in Somalia.

1- A North lowland group he calls the"Ahmar-Dharoor" who spoke a language closely relataed to Saho and Afar.

2-Southern Cushites speaking a Dahaloan branch of Southern Cushitic settled parts of the area south of the Shabelle as far south as the Tana.

3-The Eastern Omo-Tana inhabited the grasslands of the far southeast edges of Ethiopia. "From their language derive all the several distinct modern languages - Bayso, Jiddu, Rendille, Tunni, Garre, Maay, and Maxay Soomaali - considered to form the extended Soomaali subgroup of the South-Lowland Cushitic languages."

4-Two groups Ehret calls the proto-Dawo and proto-Genale emerged from the proto-Eastern Omo-Tana in the far upper Jubba watershed.

5- Hunter-gatherers belonged to possibly as many as three historical traditions, the largest being the Berdaale archaeology tradition centered at Buur Heybe, but also north and east of the Shabelle river and in Muddug and the Hawd. They are likely the Eyle. The Aweer likely come from a different group. "The evidence both from Dahalo and from proto-Southern Cushitic support the conclusion that the pre-Dahalo food collectors of the regions between the Jubba and Tana Rivers spoke a language or languages of the Khoisan family."

6- Scattered all along the coasts of the eastern Horn were small fishing settlements belonging to the ancestors of the modern Reer Manyo.

Ehret's maps and text go on to demonstrate the population replacements over time.

Do what you can with that.

 

[madaxweyne]

Nothing on Luling..

Nothing on Geledi ports or ships.

Yusuf was never able to consolidate his dominance of the South, and never got to Kismayu. He was killed and his army routed when he attempted to seize a port from the Biimaal. Same for Axmed. Their former allies changed sides over the issue of dominance.

Population replacement in the North involved at least the Dir, Yibir and Gaboye. and probably E-V6, A-M13 and E-M123. The Afroasiatic elements in Somalis come from the Cushitic homeland in northeastern Sudan.

Now, go read some real history.

You're just repeating the same old nonsense I previously refuted. I showed you a source of Geledi Sultanate ruling Barawa and Tunni clan being part of the Geledi Kingdom and paying tribute to the Geledi Sultans.

I showed you a link of Geledi Sultanate ruling Kismayo.

I showed you a pre-colonial map of how much coastal territories Geledi Sultanate ruled. The reference shows you it was written by an Italian traveller.

Yet you deny all these facts. If you control ports then that means your kingdom have ships and trade networks around the world. It's not rocket science old man. Quit your revisionism.

Another map/

Link: https://matadornetwork.com/read/mapped-africa-scramble-africa/

am not gonna read any of you're silly blogs which you call history

 

[Grant]

You're just repeating the same old nonsense I previously refuted. I showed you a source of Geledi Sultanate ruling Barawa and Tunni clan being part of the Geledi Kingdom and paying tribute to the Geledi Sultans.

I showed you a link of Geledi Sultanate ruling Kismayo.

I showed you a pre-colonial map of how much coastal territories Geledi Sultanate ruled. The reference shows you it was written by an Italian traveller.

Yet you deny all these facts. If you control ports then that means your kingdom have ships and trade networks around the world. It's not rocket science old man. Quit your revisionism.

Another map/

Link: https://matadornetwork.com/read/mapped-africa-scramble-africa/

am not gonna read any of you're silly blogs which you call history

Kismayu is south of the Jubba, not part of the area between the rivers. In 1840 it was still just a small Bajuni fishing village. Even the Harti had not yet arrived. The Geledi never got there.

The Bardheere Jamaaca conquered all of the area between the rivers during the 1830s and burned Baraawe in 1840. They were planning to re-direct the trade coming from Luuq to Baraawe and away from Afgoy and the northern Benaadir.. Not just the Geledi, but nearly the entire coast and inter-river area rose against them. Yusuf led the charge because he had taxed and controlled the ivory trade coming out of Luuq,and was most directly threatened, but he burned Bardheere and then went home. There was very little left of the lands that had been fought over. Bardheere lay vacant for 20 years.

After the Bardheere war, Sultan Yusuf tried to expand his power, resulting in the Jiddu, Hintire, Begedi and some of the Reewin clans dropping out of the Geledi alliance, and fierce resistance from the Biimaal. This chopped additional holes in your map.and led to the death of Yusuf and the routing of the Geledi army in 1848, only five years after the Bardheere war. This was repeated for Yusuf's weakened heir, Ahmad, in 1878. By the mid-1880s Ahmad's heir, Osman, barely controlled even the Geledi tribal lands.

Somalis resisted any attempt at dominance in the South that sought to alter the trading status quo. Your reliance on inaccurate maps and "edited" Wikipedia history is simply wrong.

 

[madaxweyne]

Kismayu is south of the Jubba, not part of the area between the rivers. In 1840 it was still just a small Bajuni fishing village. Even the Harti had not yet arrived. The Geledi never got there.

View attachment 67065

The Bardheere Jamaaca conquered all of the area between the rivers during the 1830s and burned Baraawe in 1840. They were planning to re-direct the trade coming from Luuq to Baraawe and away from Afgoy and the northern Benaadir.. Not just the Geledi, but nearly the entire coast and inter-river area rose against them. Yusuf led the charge because he had taxed and controlled the ivory trade coming out of Luuq,and was most directly threatened, but he burned Bardheere and then went home. There was very little left of the lands that had been fought over. Bardheere lay vacant for 20 years.

After the Bardheere war, Sultan Yusuf tried to expand his power, resulting in the Jiddu, Hintire, Begedi and some of the Reewin clans dropping out of the Geledi alliance, and fierce resistance from the Biimaal. This chopped additional holes in your map.and led to the death of Yusuf and the routing of the Geledi army in 1848, only five years after the Bardheere war. This was repeated for Yusuf's weakened heir, Ahmad, in 1878. By the mid-1880s Ahmad's heir, Osman, barely controlled even the Geledi tribal lands.

Somalis resisted any attempt at dominance in the South that sought to alter the trading status quo. Your reliance on inaccurate maps and "edited" Wikipedia history is simply wrong.

Kismayo was a Somali settlement and used to be part of the Ajuran Sultanate you old fool.

They ruled from Kismayo to Mareeg as you can see from the source.

Here is the authentic map of Ajuran Sultanate. It shows you Kismayo being a port city of Ajuran.

Link of the source before you try to make any excuses: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X1dDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA60&dq=Ajuran+Imamate+map&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjb_aHcq-HgAhUQAGMBHcGhATsQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Ajuran Imamate map&f=false

The Ajuran Sultanate held sway over Jubbaland including the coastal areas then was later ruled by the successor state called Geledi Sultanate.

I've posted enough sources to debunk you. You have yet to show a source saying Geledi Sultanate was landlocked while I showed you sources stating that Rahanweyn was ruled by the Geledi and we all know Rahanweyn own some coastal territories and have flourishing ports. You have been debunked. Don't bother replying if you don't reply to my sources above and posting a source saying "Geledi Sultanate was landlocked or had no ports". If you can't provide that then stay quiet and save the embarrassment.

 

[Grant]

Kismayo was a Somali settlement and used to be part of the Ajuran Sultanate you old fool.

They ruled from Kismayo to Mareeg as you can see from the source.

Here is the authentic map of Ajuran Sultanate. It shows you Kismayo being a port city of Ajuran.

Link of the source before you try to make any excuses: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X1dDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA60&dq=Ajuran+Imamate+map&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjb_aHcq-HgAhUQAGMBHcGhATsQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Ajuran Imamate map&f=false

The Ajuran Sultanate held sway over Jubbaland including the coastal areas then was later ruled by the successor state called Geledi Sultanate.

I've posted enough sources to debunk you. You have yet to show a source saying Geledi Sultanate was landlocked while I showed you sources stating that Rahanweyn was ruled by the Geledi and we all know Rahanweyn own some coastal territories and have flourishing ports. You have been debunked. Don't bother replying if you don't reply to my sources above and posting a source saying "Geledi Sultanate was landlocked or had no ports". If you can't provide that then stay quiet and save the embarrassment.

That's hogwash.

Let's go back to your original map.

It's dated 1915. The end of the Banaadir resistance was 1908 The Gobroon dynasty ended with the death of Osman in 1910. It's a fake. Is there any part of that you don't understand?

Your second map, dated 1880, also fails to take into account the losses of the Hintire, Jiddu, Begedi and the Reewin clans. and Ahmad's death and loss of power in 1878. As I noted above, by the mid 1880's Guillain reported that Geledi Sultan Osman was barely controlling his own tribal lands.

Your third map is from Baadiyow, whom I do not accept as a source for any aspect of early Somali history. I have caught him in too many mistakes. The inclusion of Kismayu is a bad joke. (See below.)

I gave the link showing that the Geledi were landlocked here:

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/maay-vs-maxaa.57553/page-5#post-1571661

https://books.google.com/books?id=f... and the Omani Sultanate of Zanzibar?&f=false

Cassanelli and others tell essentially the same tale, as does Dr Mukhtar in the 2003 edition of the Historical dictionary of Somalia, separately under Yusuf and Ahmad.

The Geledi were trying to get the port at Munghia, which was closest to their land holdings, from the Biimaal. Yusuf was killed in one attempt and Ahmad in the second. Both times they were pushed back over the Shabelli, never gaining access to the coast.

For information on Kismayu see:

https://www.aflat.org/files/dnurse/Bajuni.pdf

"'Unlike towns further north, Muqdishu, Marika, Brava, whose history goes back for a millennium or more, Kismayuu seems to be of fairly recent origin, having started just a few centuries ago as a small Bajuni fishing village, either on the mainland or on Kismayuu Island, which was only attached to the mainland in the 1960’s. The name is of Bajuni origin (see fn. 2). Although all Bajuni settlements, at least in recent centuries, were small in size and population, Kismayuu might have been somewhat larger because it was not just a fishing village but became a regional trading centre, in its own right, and on the route between other coastal towns. It grew into a small Bajuni town, starting in the late 19th century and continuing through much of the 20th century. As the result of economic and political events in the later 20th century, the population mushroomed, and most of the newcomers are not Bajunis. The village/town was divided into wards/quarters (Swahili mitaa, Bajuni michaa) with Bajuni names: Majengo (the oldest), Sokoni, Garedhani, Hafa Badwi. Bajunis, together with some Bravanese and Arabs, lived in the first two: the wali, askaris, and Arab traders lived in Garedhani: Hafa Badwi was exclusively Somali."

 

[madaxweyne]

That's hogwash.

Let's go back to your original map.

It's dated 1915. The end of the Banaadir resistance was 1908 The Gobroon dynasty ended with the death of Osman in 1910. It's a fake. Is there any part of that you don't understand?

Your second map, dated 1880, also fails to take into account the losses of the Hintire, Jiddu, Begedi and the Reewin clans. and Ahmad's death and loss of power in 1878. As I noted above, by the mid 1880's Guillain reported that Geledi Sultan Osman was barely controlling his own tribal lands.

Your third map is from Baadiyow, whom I do not accept as a source for any aspect of early Somali history. I have caught him in too many mistakes. The inclusion of Kismayu is a bad joke. (See below.)

I gave the link showing that the Geledi were landlocked here:

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/maay-vs-maxaa.57553/page-5#post-1571661

https://books.google.com/books?id=fb4UYAPUhYoC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=The+Geledi+and+the+Omani+Sultanate+of+Zanzibar?&source=bl&ots=DgkGDEGn2S&sig=CoUZXccJY8N2aMzK_8EE0P-cCfQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi49cTCmNvaAhUnj1QKHez-BYoQ6AEIczAK#v=onepage&q=The Geledi and the Omani Sultanate of Zanzibar?&f=false

Cassanelli and others tell essentially the same tale, as does Dr Mukhtar in the 2003 edition of the Historical dictionary of Somalia, separately under Yusuf and Ahmad.

The Geledi were trying to get the port at Munghia, which was closest to their land holdings, from the Biimaal. Yusuf was killed in one attempt and Ahmad in the second. Both times they were pushed back over the Shabelli, never gaining access to the coast.

For information on Kismayu see:

https://www.aflat.org/files/dnurse/Bajuni.pdf

"'Unlike towns further north, Muqdishu, Marika, Brava, whose history goes back for a millennium or more, Kismayuu seems to be of fairly recent origin, having started just a few centuries ago as a small Bajuni fishing village, either on the mainland or on Kismayuu Island, which was only attached to the mainland in the 1960’s. The name is of Bajuni origin (see fn. 2). Although all Bajuni settlements, at least in recent centuries, were small in size and population, Kismayuu might have been somewhat larger because it was not just a fishing village but became a regional trading centre, in its own right, and on the route between other coastal towns. It grew into a small Bajuni town, starting in the late 19th century and continuing through much of the 20th century. As the result of economic and political events in the later 20th century, the population mushroomed, and most of the newcomers are not Bajunis. The village/town was divided into wards/quarters (Swahili mitaa, Bajuni michaa) with Bajuni names: Majengo (the oldest), Sokoni, Garedhani, Hafa Badwi. Bajunis, together with some Bravanese and Arabs, lived in the first two: the wali, askaris, and Arab traders lived in Garedhani: Hafa Badwi was exclusively Somali."

Still no sources that show that the Geledi was landlocked and I supplied you with three or four authentic maps
Of the Geledi doesn't matter if you deny them

Also I read you're dump report on the Bajuni it didn't say anything about them founding kismayo

Just give up and take you're pills old man I'm not even going to entertain you any longer most people that see this
Will know how much of an old fool you are

 

[Grant]

Still no sources that show that the Geledi was landlocked and I supplied you with three or four authentic maps
Of the Geledi doesn't matter if you deny them

Also I read you're dump report on the Bajuni it didn't say anything about them founding kismayo

Just give up and take you're pills old man I'm not even going to entertain you any longer most people that see this
Will know how much of an old fool you are

I see you can't even read, which explains a lot.

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/maay-vs-maxaa.57553/page-7#post-1576719

 

[madaxweyne]

I see you can't even read, which explains a lot.

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/maay-vs-maxaa.57553/page-7#post-1576719

Show a source that says the Geledi was landlocked also show a map of it as well that can rival my 4 or three other ones

And just take a small screenshot of the bajuni founding kismayo
And show me a source that accurately dates the founding of kismayo to bajunis


I showed you a Source that ajuraan ruled kismaayo in the middle ages debunking you're claims it was founded in the 20th century by bajunis

@Grant come back when you gather you're evidence I predict their won't be any

 

[Grant]

Show a source that says the Geledi was landlocked also show a map of it as well that can rival my 4 or three other ones

And just take a small screenshot of the bajuni founding kismayo
And show me a source that accurately dates the founding of kismayo to bajunis


I showed you a Source that ajuraan ruled kismaayo in the middle ages debunking you're claims it was founded in the 20th century by bajunis

@Grant come back when you gather you're evidence I predict their won't be any

I see no point in repeating what you either can't or won't read.

 

[Grant]

I see you can't even read, which explains a lot.

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/maay-vs-maxaa.57553/page-7#post-1576719

I showed you where your maps fall apart.

http://notesandrecords.blogspot.com/2010/09/lost-world-of-bajuni.html

https://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/maps/africa/somalia_ethnic77.jpg

https://www.aflat.org/files/dnurse/Bajuni.pdf

"'Unlike towns further north, Muqdishu, Marika, Brava, whose history goes back for a millennium or more, Kismayuu seems to be of fairly recent origin, having started just a few centuries ago as a small Bajuni fishing village, either on the mainland or on Kismayuu Island, which was only attached to the mainland in the 1960’s. The name is of Bajuni origin (see fn. 2)."

The Bajuni speak a dialect of Swahili called Tukuli. Kismayu is Tukuli for "northern well", indicating that all the other Bajuni settlements were south of there.

Neither the Ajuraan nor the Geledi got south of the Jubba.

You still haven't been able to read https://www.somalispot.com/threads/maay-vs-maxaa.57553/page-5#post-1571661 ?

 

[Grant]

Show a source that says the Geledi was landlocked also show a map of it as well that can rival my 4 or three other ones

And just take a small screenshot of the bajuni founding kismayo
And show me a source that accurately dates the founding of kismayo to bajunis


I showed you a Source that ajuraan ruled kismaayo in the middle ages debunking you're claims it was founded in the 20th century by bajunis

@Grant come back when you gather you're evidence I predict their won't be any

The Encyclopedia version for the origin of Kismayu is that it was founded by the Sultan of Zanzibar, who would have been Barghash, in 1872.

https://www.britannica.com/

The Bajuni version dates the origin to several hundred years ago (not the 20th century as you state). If we take "several" to mean about three hundred, that would make it 1700 AD, which would be the very end of the Ajuraan and before the rise of the Geledi. You will notice on my second map that it was the Jiddu and Biimaal that expanded into the coastal strip south of Baraawe. and neither the Tunni nor Geledi.. The Biimal were the chief opponents of the Geledi and the Jiddu were not allied to the Geledi after 1843.

 

[madaxweyne]

The Encyclopedia version for the origin of Kismayu is that it was founded by the Sultan of Zanzibar, who would have been Barghash, in 1872.

https://www.britannica.com/

The Bajuni version dates the origin to several hundred years ago (not the 20th century as you state). If we take "several" to mean about three hundred, that would make it 1700 AD, which would be the very end of the Ajuraan and before the rise of the Geledi. You will notice on my second map that it was the Jiddu and Biimaal that expanded into the coastal strip south of Baraawe. and neither the Tunni nor Geledi.. The Biimal were the chief opponents of the Geledi and the Jiddu were not allied to the Geledi after 1843.

Grant, all you brought was blogs. They hold no authority on history and anyone can make blogs, nobody here takes you seriously. I've already debunked you with a historian that has PHD in history, unlike you. If you disagree with him then that's your problem. All historians has his back.

The Tunni tribe and Jiddu tribe are native Rahanweyn tribes of lower Shabelle, Jubba valley and the coast. They never expanded but lived there in the ancient times. The Bajuuni are Bantu/Arabs. They are recent and Kismayo was originally a Jiddu fishing village until it became a port for Agriculture by the Ajuran Sultanate. You're talking about the islands, don't conflate that with Kismayo.

They ruled from Kismayo to Mareeg as you can see from the source.

Here is the authentic map of Ajuran Sultanate. It shows you Kismayo being a port city of Ajuran.

Link of the authentic book: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...HgAhUQAGMBHcGhATsQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Ajuran Imamate map&f=false


Go learn the history of Kismayo you fool: https://www.triposo.com/loc/Kismayo/history/background

As for Barawa. It was founded by Aw Ali, a Tunni Sheikh in the 9th century and was part of the Geledi Sultanate. I showed you an evidence that they used to pay tribute for the Geledi rulers.

 

[Grant]

Grant, all you brought was blogs. They hold no authority on history and anyone can make blogs, nobody here takes you seriously. I've already debunked you with a historian that has PHD in history, unlike you. If you disagree with him then that's your problem. All historians has his back.

The Tunni tribe and Jiddu tribe are native Rahanweyn tribes of lower Shabelle, Jubba valley and the coast. They never expanded but lived there in the ancient times. The Bajuuni are Bantu/Arabs. They are recent and Kismayo was originally a Jiddu fishing village until it became a port for Agriculture by the Ajuran Sultanate. You're talking about the islands, don't conflate that with Kismayo.

They ruled from Kismayo to Mareeg as you can see from the source.

Here is the authentic map of Ajuran Sultanate. It shows you Kismayo being a port city of Ajuran.

Link of the authentic book: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...HgAhUQAGMBHcGhATsQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Ajuran Imamate map&f=false


Go learn the history of Kismayo you fool: https://www.triposo.com/loc/Kismayo/history/background

As for Barawa. It was founded by Aw Ali, a Tunni Sheikh in the 9th century and was part of the Geledi Sultanate. I showed you an evidence that they used to pay tribute for the Geledi rulers.

So, now Encyclopedia Britannica and

Volume 9 of the series Islam in Africa are blogs? Get a grip, man.

The source for the Bajuni blog is

Grottanelli, Vinigi L. 1955. Pescatori dell’Oceano indiano: saggio etnologico preliminare sui Bagiuni, Bantu costieri dell’Oltregiuba. Rome: Cremonese.

You read Italian, or you want something in English?
Your first link is Baadiyow. Your second link is a travelogue!

 

[madaxweyne]

So, now Encyclopedia Britannica and View attachment 67262

Volume 9 of the series Islam in Africa are blogs? Get a grip, man.

The source for the Bajuni blog is

Grottanelli, Vinigi L. 1955. Pescatori dell’Oceano indiano: saggio etnologico preliminare sui Bagiuni, Bantu costieri dell’Oltregiuba. Rome: Cremonese.

You read Italian, or you want something in English?
Your first link is Baadiyow. Your second link is a travelogue!

A blog is a blog. Your only legit source was Encyclopedia Britannica which talks about oral traditions which holds no authorization on history and the other link is about geography which again no authorization on history.

I showed you two legit historical sources from two PHD historians. If you disagree with them, that's on you but majority of historians agree with them.

One being from Abdullahi, Abdurahman. He made a book called Somali history and it has been accepted by all historians.

He explains Barawa being founded by Aw Ali, a tunni Sheikh in the 9th century. He explains Jiddu being the original inhabitants of Kismayo. The Ajuran came and turned their fishing village (Kismayo) into a habour port then later the successor state: Geledi Sultanate took over. When Geledi got weakened by Bimaal, this open the wave for Darood expansion. Listen you old fool, you don't know Somali history, let alone Jubbaland or the Benadir coast so STFU and read his authentic book already!

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...ing Sense of Somali History: Volume 1&f=false

Second one is from Ade Ajayi with a book called "Africa in the Nineteenth Century Until the 1880s."

He explains carefully that all Rahanweyn clans are under Geledi rule and that Barawa and Kismayo is part of the Geledi Sultanate. He also explains lower Jubba being under Geledi Sultanate too and mentioned Jiddu and Tunni paying tribute to the Geledi rulers.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...he Nineteenth Century Until the 1880s&f=false

You can escape from these two factual links above.

 

[Grant]

A blog is a blog. Your only legit source was Encyclopedia Britannica which talks about oral traditions which holds no authorization on history and the other link is about geography which again no authorization on history.

I showed you two legit historical sources from two PHD historians. If you disagree with them, that's on you but majority of historians agree with them.

One being from Abdullahi, Abdurahman. He made a book called Somali history and it has been accepted by all historians.

He explains Barawa being founded by Aw Ali, a tunni Sheikh in the 9th century. He explains Jiddu being the original inhabitants of Kismayo. The Ajuran came and turned their fishing village (Kismayo) into a habour port then later the successor state: Geledi Sultanate took over. When Geledi got weakened by Bimaal, this open the wave for Darood expansion. Listen you old fool, you don't know Somali history, let alone Jubbaland or the Benadir coast so STFU and read his authentic book already!

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...ing Sense of Somali History: Volume 1&f=false

Second one is from Ade Ajayi with a book called "Africa in the Nineteenth Century Until the 1880s."

He explains carefully that all Rahanweyn clans are under Geledi rule and that Barawa and Kismayo is part of the Geledi Sultanate. He also explains lower Jubba being under Geledi Sultanate too and mentioned Jiddu and Tunni paying tribute to the Geledi rulers.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...he Nineteenth Century Until the 1880s&f=false

You can escape from these two factual links above.

Baadiyow (your Abdullahi, Abdurahman.) writes. among other things, that the Periplus was written by Maris Erythraei, when that is part of the title (The Circumnavigation of the Red Sea). Maris Erythraei is Greek for "of the Red Sea". He also states that Mir Ali Bey strengthened the alliance between the Ajuraan and the Ottomans, while his own footnoted source states that Bey was an independant pirate, aided and financed in large part by the merchants of Muqdisho and Baraawe (not the Ajuraan) and that he was captured by the Portuguese when they burned Mombasa and died a Catholic in Lisbon. In fact, there is no correspondence at all in the Ottoman archives between the Ottomans and the Ajuraan. Baadiyow is not to be trusted.


Ade Ajayi was a Christian Igbo and a member of the Ibadan school, which emphasized the African component in African history. He is misinformed, or at least describing only a limited period of time. Why would you pick him over the many Somalis and others who have written on the subject?

A good many of the Reewin clans, as well as the Jiddu, Begedi and Hintire, left the Geledi alliance after 1843. Zanzibari Sultan Barghash studied religion at Baraawe and was both patron and Khalifa to Tunni Shaykh Uweys al Baraawe. By the mid-19th century, Baraawe was swinging away from the Geledi and towards significant reliance on Barghash, who established a garrison in the town shortly after becoming Sultan in 1870.

Your claims make no sense at all.