Mogadishu and Zeila were always Somali cities

[Grant]

Recording debunked traditions from the refuge and exiled Cadcads doesn't prove anything. You're again using opinions.

These are authentic sources. Arabs did not found or rule shit, they got permission from the Somalis to settle in Mogadishu. They paid tribute to the local Somali rulers to stay and Somalis retained their political dominance and stayed as the majority in Mogadishu. This source debunks the traditions made by west Asians.

Here is the link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3SapTk5iGDkC&pg=PA252&dq=despite+the+traditions+muslim+immigrants+founded+benadir&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyw8fL_4PdAhUiLcAKHVHUAv4Q6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=despite the traditions muslim immigrants founded benadir&f=false

You're still refusing these sources. This medieval scholar who visited Mogadishu in the medieval times himself clearly states that Mogadishu was neither Arab or Persian enclave but largely a Somali town. Why do you always reject every source I throw at you?

You really should read your links before you post them.

Page 252:

You see any Samaale ships?

Nobody is saying there weren't locals. They just weren't allowed within the city walls after dark. 1624 is when the Yaquub Abgaal get access to Mog and begin marrying into the merchant families. It was a tight enclave before that.

 

[Factz]

You really should read your links before you post them.

View attachment 52760

You see any Samaale ships?

Nobody is saying there weren't locals. They just weren't allowed within the city walls after dark. 1624 is when the Yaquub Abgaal get access to Mog and begin marrying into the merchant families. It was a tight enclave before that.

According to this source which you repeatedly denied who was a medieval scholar, by the way, visited Mogadishu and confirmed it was neither an Arab or Persian enclave but largely a Somali town so I'm afraid that enclave part is also debunked.

On top of that I already gave you the link that Arabs got permission by the local Somalis to settle in one particular neighbourhood and paid tribute to the Somali rulers to stay. The Somalis retained their dominance in Mogadishu both politically and numerically. I also gave you another source that Mogadishu dates back to the 1st century known as Sarapion and was part of the Somali city-states but instead you changed the topic like Beden ships? Seriously? We're talking about Mogadishu here and I have proved you enough that it has always been dominated by Somalis whether you like it or not.

Now please exit from my thread and don't come back again. You've already been utterly debunked. Now go see your Grandchildren and tell them I said Hi.

 

[Grant]

According to this source which you repeatedly denied who was a medieval scholar, by the way, visited Mogadishu and confirmed it was neither an Arab or Persian enclave but largely a Somali town so I'm afraid that enclave part is also debunked.

On top of that I already gave you the link that Arabs got permission by the local Somalis to settle in one particular neighbourhood and paid tribute to the Somali rulers to stay. The Somalis retained their dominance in Mogadishu both politically and numerically. I also gave you another source that Mogadishu dates back to the 1st century known as Sarapion and was part of the Somali city-states but instead you changed the topic like Beden ships? Seriously? We're talking about Mogadishu here and I have proved you enough that it has always been dominated by Somalis whether you like it or not.

Now please exit from my thread and don't come back again. You've already been utterly debunked. Now go see your Grandchildren and tell them I said Hi.

That is a quotation. It is not a source and it has no link. You still don't know what a qadi is.


Extended dhaqan celis would do you a world of good.

 

[Factz]

That is a quotation. It is not a source and it has no link. You still don't know what a qadi is.


Extended dhaqan celis would do you a world of good.

Forget his name. The point is he explicitly states Mogadishu was neither an Arab or Persian enclave but largely a Somali town after visiting Mogadishu himself during the medieval times. Stop ignoring that piece of fact old man and just learn to accept you're wrong and move on.

Here is the link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...dAhVlC8AKHWAkA3UQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Don't forget the most respected Somali historian called Abdullahi Abdurahman who proves Mogadishu dates back in the 1st century and was known by the ancient Greeks as Sarapion and it was part of the ancient Somali city-states. So that other piece of information alone is enough to tell you that Mogadishu was always dominated by Somalis since its very existence.

 

[Grant]

Forget his name. The point is he explicitly states Mogadishu was neither an Arab or Persian enclave but largely a Somali town after visiting Mogadishu himself during the medieval times. Stop ignoring that piece of fact old man and just learn to accept you're wrong and move on.

Here is the link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...dAhVlC8AKHWAkA3UQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Your link and quote:

The Qadi- It's not his name. He was the court judge, also an Arabic title.

The Arab sources, the Hawiyye oral traditions, Dr Hersi, Alpers, Cerulli Castanelli, Reese and Luling all disagree with you.

You should definitely consider the dhaqan celis.

 

[Factz]

Your link and quote:

View attachment 52762

The Qadi- It's not his name. He was the court judge, also an Arabic title.

The Arab sources, the Hawiyye oral traditions, Dr Hersi, Alpers, Cerulli Castanelli, Reese and Luling all disagree with you.

You should definitely consider the dhaqan celis.

Remember that's the same link that says Mogadishu was neither an Arab or Persian enclave so don't cherry pick without reading the whole context.

Nobody disagrees with me except for you and your made up fake blogs. You haven't proven shit on this forum so get lost because you have an agenda here to distort the Somali history.

I've shown you medieval scholars who visited Mogadishu themselves and confirmed it was dominated by Somalis and they were:

Yaqut al-Hamawi
Ibn Sa'id
Ibn Battuta
Imam Qadi
Vasco Da Gama

The modern-day historians and their sources I have shared with you and their links which you utterly rejected and they were:

Abdullahi Abdurahman
Raphael Chijioke Njoku
Gordon Kerr
Zeynab Ali
Ross E. Dunn
Michael Dumper
Bruce E. Stanley

Mind you the modern day historians that disagree with you all have PHD while you don't. I think it's safe to say no matter how many times I disprove you. You will always reject them because you have an agenda here and you know I am right but the problem is you're just intellectually dishonest.

By the way, Hawiye oral traditions claim Mogadishu was dominated by Ajuran "Moorshe" so don't you lie to me again.

Now I've wasted my time on you so please, exit from this thread and don't come back. There is no reason to continue debating.

 

[Grant]

Remember that's the same link that says Mogadishu was neither an Arab or Persian enclave so don't cherry pick without reading the whole context.

Nobody disagrees with me except for you and your made up fake blogs. You haven't proven shit on this forum so get lost because you have an agenda here to distort the Somali history.

I've shown you medieval scholars who visited Mogadishu themselves and confirmed it was dominated by Somalis and they were:

Yaqut al-Hamawi
Ibn Sa'id
Ibn Battuta
Imam Qadi
Vasco Da Gama,

The modern-day historians and their sources I have shared with you and their links which you utterly rejected and they were:

Abdullahi, Abdurahman
Raphael Chijioke Njoku
Gordon Kerr
Zeynab Ali
Ross E. Dunn
Michael Dumper
Bruce E. Stanley

Mind you they all have PHD while you don't. I think it's safe to say no matter how many times I disprove you. You will always reject them because you have an agenda here and you know I am right but the problem is you're just intellectually dishonest.

Now I've wasted my time on you so please, exit this thread and don't come back. There is no reason to continue debating.

It could be nice if you sometimes linked to your supposed sources. A lot of those names are new to this conversation. You usually have no link, or it goes nowhere, or it doesn't say what you said. Your false links to Luling and Sudan Notes were of course something else.

You NEED that dhaqan celis.

 

[Factz]

It could be nice if you sometimes linked to your supposed sources. A lot of those names are new to this conversation. You usually have no link, or it goes nowhere, or it doesn't say what you said. Your false links to Luling and Sudan Notes were of course something else.

You NEED that dhaqan celis.

I have literally shared them all throughout this entire thread and previous threads too but you have rejected them ALL just because they ALL disagree with your bullshit and debunks your lying theories.

Now please exit from my thread and check the sources I have given you instead of denying them and wasting my time.

 

[Grant]

I have literally shared them all throughout this entire thread and previous threads too but you have rejected them all just because they all disagree with your bullshit and debunk your lying theories.

Now please exit from my thread and check the sources I have given you instead of denying them.

You have given me authors but no sources. Let's see if you can actually produce the links to prove you've been there. Also add accessible links for Luling and Sudan Notes. If you've been there it shouldn't be any big deal to produce links.

Especially give me a link for "Imam Qadi".

You should still be considering dhaqan celis.

 

[Factz]

You have given me authors but no sources. Let's see if you can actually produce the links to prove you've been there. Also add accessible links for Luling and Sudan Notes. If you've been there it shouldn't be any big deal to produce links.

Especially give me a link for Imam Qadi.

Your reading comprehension and intellectual dishonesty is not needed in my thread. I have literally gave most of them here and all others on other threads where I previously debated with you but instead you rejected them all and ran away.

I don't need to further waste my time on you if you rejected my previous sources. So why don't you exit from this thread one last time and go enjoy your summer holidays with your grandchildren instead of trolling on foreign forums.

 

[Grant]

Your is not needed in my thread. I have literally gave most of them here and all others on other threads where I previously debated with you but instead you rejected them all and ran away.

I don't need to further waste my time on you if you rejected my previous sources. So why don't you exit from this thread one last time and go enjoy your summer holidays with your grandchildren instead of trolling on foreign forums.

I ran away? Reading comprehension and intellectual dishonesty? Oh wow.....

Links, baby; you don't have em and never have.

That dhaqan celis should be getting closer. Stop wasting your time and go read something real.

 

[Factz]

I ran away? Reading comprehension and intellectual dishonesty? Oh wow.....

Links, baby; you don't have em and never have.

The links are shown throughout this thread. Go back and read them and don't bother wasting my time again. You have rejected all of the 12 scholars I have shared with you so there is no reason to continue to this discussion so get the hell out of my thread and back into your own.

 

[Grant]

The links are shown throughout this thread. Go back and read them and don't bother wasting my time again. You have rejected all of the 12 scholars I have shared with you so there is no reason to continue to this discussion so get the hell out of my thread and back into your own.

Throughout this thread? Exactly what I thought. You never got to most of those links. Certainly not the important ones. You have been caught once more..

And you NEED that dhaqan celis.

 

[Factz]

Throughout this thread? Exactly what I thought. You never got to most of those links. Certainly not the important ones. You have been caught once more..

And you NEED that dhaqan celis.

You're such a liar, they're all over this thread. I'll repeat them again and tell you these historians and give you the links. Now go read these sources instead of running away and don't quote me again.

According to this medieval scholar and traveller who visited Mogadishu and the Benadir coast confirmed they were neither Arab or Persian enclaves but largely African towns that were dominated and ruled by the native dark skin Africans that spoke their own native African tongue.

The historian is Ross E. Dunn and here is the link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...dAhVlC8AKHWAkA3UQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

A 12th century historian called Yaqut al-Hamawi stated that Mogadishu was inhabited by Swarthly Berbers who are ancestors of Somali people today. Last time I checked Shirazi people are not dark skin nor were they ever referred as Bilad Al-Berber or Barbara, that was an ancient and medieval term to describe the Somalis back then.

The historian is Raphael Chijioke Njoku and here is the link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FlL2vE_qRQ8C&pg=PA36&dq=somali+merchants+established+a+colony+in+sofala&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8g-jOjcjcAhXqLcAKHXXsB-wQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=somali merchants established a colony in sofala&f=false

Arabs did not found or rule shit, they got permission from the Somalis to settle in Mogadishu. They paid tribute to the local Somali rulers to stay and Somalis retained their political dominance and stayed as the majority in Mogadishu. This source debunks the traditions made by west Asians.

The historian are Michael Dumper and Bruce E. Stanley. Here is the link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3SapTk5iGDkC&pg=PA252&dq=despite+the+traditions+muslim+immigrants+founded+benadir&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyw8fL_4PdAhUiLcAKHVHUAv4Q6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=despite the traditions muslim immigrants founded benadir&f=false

Modern day scholars all agree Mogadishu existed way before Islam and goes back to the first century and it's believed to be Sarapion. It used to be part of the Somali city-states and it was inhabited by the Barbara people who are believed to be the ancestors of modern day Somalis.

The historian is Abdullahi Abdurahman and here is the link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X1dDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA48&dq=Sarapion+mogadishu&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjm87u0goTdAhXIKcAKHc4cBJUQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q=Sarapion mogadishu&f=false

There are many more you blind fool and go check out the other threads I silenced you on when I showed you other authentic sources.

What's the point of me showing you these sources if you're going to reject them all? You are a waste of time so get lost.

 

[Grant]

You're such a liar, they're all over this thread. I'll repeat them again and tell you these historians and give you the links. Now go read these sources instead of running away and don't quote me again.

According to this medieval scholar and traveller who visited Mogadishu and the Benadir coast confirmed they were neither Arab or Persian enclaves but largely African towns that were dominated and ruled by the native dark skin Africans that spoke their own native African tongue.

The historian is Ross E. Dunn and here is the link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...dAhVlC8AKHWAkA3UQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

A 12th century historian called Yaqut al-Hamawi stated that Mogadishu was inhabited by Swarthly Berbers who are ancestors of Somali people today. Last time I checked Shirazi people are not dark skin nor were they ever referred as Bilad Al-Berber or Barbara, that was an ancient and medieval term to describe the Somalis back then.

The historian is Raphael Chijioke Njoku and here is the link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FlL2vE_qRQ8C&pg=PA36&dq=somali+merchants+established+a+colony+in+sofala&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8g-jOjcjcAhXqLcAKHXXsB-wQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=somali merchants established a colony in sofala&f=false

Arabs did not found or rule shit, they got permission from the Somalis to settle in Mogadishu. They paid tribute to the local Somali rulers to stay and Somalis retained their political dominance and stayed as the majority in Mogadishu. This source debunks the traditions made by west Asians.

The historian are Michael Dumper and Bruce E. Stanley. Here is the link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3SapTk5iGDkC&pg=PA252&dq=despite+the+traditions+muslim+immigrants+founded+benadir&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyw8fL_4PdAhUiLcAKHVHUAv4Q6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=despite the traditions muslim immigrants founded benadir&f=false

Modern day scholars all agree Mogadishu existed way before Islam and goes back to the first century and it's believed to be Sarapion. It used to be part of the Somali city-states and it was inhabited by the Barbara people who are believed to be the ancestors of modern day Somalis.

The historian is Abdullahi, Abdurahman and here is the link: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X1dDDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA48&dq=Sarapion+mogadishu&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjm87u0goTdAhXIKcAKHc4cBJUQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q=Sarapion mogadishu&f=false

There are many more you blind fool and go check out the other threads I silenced you on when I showed you other authentic sources.

Last time you attributed the first quote to "Imam Qadi". Glad you got that straight.

The second link has the Periplus written by Maris Erythraei.

Your third link:

Your fourth link is Baadiyow, who accepts Reese, Dr Hersi, Cassanelli, Cerulli, etc. but gets Maris Erythraei wrong. That's the name of the Red Sea, not the author of the Periplus.

Just actually reading your own links would be an excellent start. If you had the background to pick out the errors. Which you don't.

That was only four out of twelve links you said you had given. Then there are Luling and Sudan Notes and Records that I asked for. You still need to prove you got to ten links.

 

[Factz]

Last time you attributed the first quote to "Imam Qadi". Glad you got that straight.

The second link has the Periplus written by Maris Erythraei.

Your third link:


View attachment 52770

Your fourth link is Baadiyow, who accepts Reese, Dr Hersi, Cassanelli, Cerulli, etc. but gets Maris Erythraea wrong. That's the name of the Red Sea, not the author of the Periplus.

Just actually reading your own links would be an excellent start. If you had the background to pick out the errors. Which you don't.

The third link, why are you cherry picking again? Read the whole context. It's quoting the traditions and debunks them as most scholars agree that Somalis dominated mogadishu both politically and numberically. "It's widely accepted".

My fourth link like Abdullahi Abdurahman debunks Dr Hersi in his books multiple times so you're again lying. But why are you ignoring his sources about ancient Mogadishu being part of the Somali city-states and how Mogadishu was always settled by Somalis? Why are you ignoring my other two links at the top? What about the other authentic sources I have given you in the other threads when you went silent on them? Exactly, you have an agenda here to distort the Somali history. Listen Grant, you're a waste of time here. You have a reputation of being a compulsive lying historical revisionist troll on this forum so don't bother quoting me again. I'm tired of your childish games.

 

[Grant]

The third link, why are you cherry picking again? Read the whole context. It's quoting the traditions and debunks them as most scholars agree that Somalis dominated mogadishu both politically and numberically. "It's widely accepted".

My fourth link like Abdullahi Abdurahman debunks Dr Hersi in his books multiple times so you're again lying. But why are you ignoring his sources about ancient Mogadishu being part of the Somali city-states and how Mogadishu was always settled by Somalis? Why are you ignoring my other two links at the top? What about the other authentic sources I have given you in the other threads when you went silent on them? Exactly, you have an agenda here to distort the Somali history. Listen Grant, you're a waste of time here. You have a reputation of being a compulsive lying historical revisionist troll on this forum so don't bother quoting me again. I'm tired of your childish games.

Widely accepted? Not by the historians I have read, most of whom Baadiyow praises. I showed you link and source.

You still have ten links to go. And no. I'm not giving up. I want to see a real history section here. Your misinterpretations and lack of link finesse and historigraphy don't cut it.

That was ten links, Dude. You may be playing a game, but I am not. Ten links.

 

[Factz]

Widely accepted? Not by the historians I have read, most of whom Baadiyow praises. I showed you link and source.

You still have ten links to go. And no. I'm not giving up. I want to see a real history section here. Your misinterpretations and lack of link finesse and historigraphy don't cut it.

That was ten links, Dude. You may be playing a game, but I am not. Ten links.

Get the f out of my thread. I'm not going to waste my energy on you. I've already given you five authentic links here and with your arrogance and ignorance, you rejected them all. So me showing you other links which I previously did in other threads but you rejected them all and went silent. I'm not going to bother with your bullshit, all you do is cherry pick and run around in circles. You're a walking talking self-contradictory liar.

These two historians are referencing multiple historians and yes, it's widely accepted that these are fake traditions which you keep talking about are bullshit and they prove Mogadishu was always dominated and ruled by Somalis. They have PHD in history and know what they're talking about, not you.

Lastly, you rejected Abdullahi Abdurahman so don't even talk about him. He clearly states Mogadishu was dominated by Somalis and that Mogadishu goes back in the 1st century ruled by Somali ancestors, the Barbara people and he also debunks Dr Hersi in his book multiple times so I don't know what you're talking about so be quiet you liar.

 

[Grant]

Get the f*ck out of my thread. I'm not going to waste my energy on you. I've already given you five authentic links here and with your arrogance and ignorance, you rejected them all. So me showing you other links which I previously did in other threads but you rejected them all and went silent. I'm not going to bother with your bullshit, all you do is cherry pick and run around in circles. You're a walking talking self-contradictory liar.

These two historians are referencing multiple historians and yes, it's widely accepted that these are fake traditions which you keep talking about are bullshit and they prove Mogadishu was always dominated and ruled by Somalis. They have PHD in history and know what they're talking about, not you.

Lastly, you rejected Abdullahi Abdurahman so don't even talk about him. He clearly states Mogadishu was dominated by Somalis and that Mogadishu goes back in the 1st century ruled by Somali ancestors, the Barbara people and he also debunks Dr Hersi in his book multiple times so I don't know what you're talking about so be quiet you liar.

You are proving only that you never got to ten out of fourteen links that you posted as legitimate.. Mine is the time being wasted here. I have been through all this with you before. This time was just for the sake of the MODs and Defendant, whom you have served poorly.

Ten Links. You don't have to say anything, just links so we all know you can do it. Or that you can't.

 

[Factz]

You are proving only that you never got to ten out of fourteen links that you posted as legitimate.. Mine is the time being wasted here. I have been through all this with you before. This time was just for the sake of the MODs and Defendant, whom you have served poorly.

Ten Links. You don't have to say anything, just links so we all know you can do it. Or that you can't.

I've given you five links and rejected them all just because it debunks your lying theories so what's the point if I show you the rest? Who said they were 10 left? I mentioned 14 authors dumbass.

You are a waste of energy and I've previously shown you those sources in the past but you have rejected them all so I won't bother posting them again.

Deep down, you know I'm right. It's just you're intellectually dishonest and have an agenda here to discredit the Somali history but thankfully most people agree with me here and see you as a historical revisionist troll.

Difference between me and you is I posted authentic sources while you posted blogs so the discussion is over.