Mohammed Hijab gets called a pedo by the far-right, Zionists, and Ryan Garcia after an old video resurfaced in which he talks about underage marriage

[Awdalite]

Muslim also says she was 6 when married and 9 when consummated, it’s not a weak hadith. Also it’s Aisha narrating her own age, it’s not like a third party is the one saying this

It doesn't make any difference whether it's in Sahih Bukhari, Muslim or any other book of hadith. They're using the same transmission and chain for the same hadith.

What do you mean it's Aisha narrating her own age? That is via the authority of 'Urwa who Imam Malik said his hadiths are not reliable after moving to Iraq due to old age. The experts on his history used the word اختلط meaning he became confused and made many mistakes

 

[reer_ugaas_hussein]

@World

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

And what is your opinion of that?!

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Angelina]

"

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

That’s not true at all.

 

[Angelina]

@reer_ugaas_hussein

Also, this is a Sahih hadith that mentions the need for consent for both non virgin and virgin daughter:


It is not permissible for a woman to be made to marry someone she does not want. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: A previously-married woman should not be married without being consulted, and a virgin should not be married without asking her permission. They said, O Messenger of Allaah, how is her permission given? He said, By her silence.

(Reported by al-Bukhaari, 6455).

We have multiple versions in fact:

The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “The virgin should not be given in marriage until her permission has been sought.” (Narrated by al-Bukhari, 6968; Muslim, 1419)



To suggest that there is nothing in Islam about consent for virgin women when there is a Sahih hadith is a tad strange. If you meant the classical traditions, that’s also wrong as well since Hanbalis and Hanafis and some Malikis staunchly believe that adult virgin women need to consent. It’s the Shafis and majority of Malikis who believe that a virgin woman can and even then there is no Hadith that argues this. They base it on the fact that Aisha married the Prophet S.A.W.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

`Aa'ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, related that she once asked the Prophet : "In the case of a young girl whose parents marry her off, should her permission be sought or not?" He replied: "Yes, she must give her permission."She then said: "But a virgin would be shy, O Messenger of Allah!" He replied: "Her silence is [considered as] her permission."[Al-Bukhari, Muslim, & Others]

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[reer_ugaas_hussein]

@reer_ugaas_hussein

Also, this is a Sahih hadith that mentions the need for consent for both non virgin and virgin daughter:


It is not permissible for a woman to be made to marry someone she does not want. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: A previously-married woman should not be married without being consulted, and a virgin should not be married without asking her permission. They said, O Messenger of Allaah, how is her permission given? He said, By her silence.

(Reported by al-Bukhaari, 6455).

To suggest that there is nothing in Islam about consent for virgin women when there is an Sahih hadith is a tad strange.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Angelina]

The thing about this Hadith is, I used to think too that this means categorically that an adult virgin woman permission is needed to but according to majority of the classical madhabs (maliki, hanbali, shafi) and even minority of the hanafi its not the case. They understood the hadith part in which the virgin should be consulted to mean that it is recommended to consult her, however it is not obligatory and after consulting her if it is not necessary to act according to her counsel. https://shamela.ws/book/384/6495
They also based their point of view that guardians have a categorical permission ot marry of their dependants, including adult virgins, according to tafsir Quran 24:32

But you're right that its not correct to say all of classical jurisprudence thought like this, but the majority I would say

Thats not the case Hanafis and Hanbalis do not believe in forced marriages of virgin adult women.

Go to any Hanbali or Hanafi scholar.

Hanbali site:


1. That he may compel her to. This is also the opinion of Maalik, Ash-Shaafi`ee, and others .

2- That he may not. This is the opinion of Abu Haneefah and others, and is the correct one.

Forced marriages

Explore the complexities of forced marriage in Islamic law, particularly the varying scholarly opinions on whether a father can compel his virgin daughter to marry. While some scholars, like Imaam Ahmad and Maalik, believe that compulsion is permissible, prominent figures such as Abu Haneefah...

www.islamweb.net

 

[World]

Thats not the case Hanafis and Hanbalis do not believe in forced marriages of virgin adult women.

Go to any Hanbali or Hanafi scholar.

Hanbali site:


1. That he may compel her to. This is also the opinion of Maalik, Ash-Shaafi`ee, and others .

2- That he may not. This is the opinion of Abu Haneefah and others, and is the correct one.

Forced marriages

Explore the complexities of forced marriage in Islamic law, particularly the varying scholarly opinions on whether a father can compel his virgin daughter to marry. While some scholars, like Imaam Ahmad and Maalik, believe that compulsion is permissible, prominent figures such as Abu Haneefah...

www.islamweb.net

Hes right.. only the Hanafis support consent for adult woman that hasnt been previously married.

 

[Angelina]

@reer_ugaas_hussein

The link you sent doesn’t say that Hanbalis or Hanafis believe this.

It literally says the ‘ Non-Hanafi view’ and talks about Malikis.

It is a fact that Hanbalis and Hanafis believe in the consent of an adult virgin woman.

 

[Angelina]

Hes right.. only the Hanafis support consent for unmarried woman.

Nope, the Hanbalis do as well. I’ve read enough Hanbali papers of Hanbali scholars. Even Imaam Ahmed says that an adult virgin needs consent.

Islamweb is strictly Hanbali btw, they’re not Salafi.

 

[Angelina]

@reer_ugaas_hussein and @World

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Kane]

Nope, the Hanbalis do as well. I’ve read enough Hanbali papers of Hanbali scholars. Even Imaam Ahmed says that an adult virgin needs consent.

Islamweb is strictly Hanbali btw, they’re not Salafi.

what’s the argument here, that a divorcee can be married off without her consent as opposed to a non married virgin?

I don’t mean your position btw.

 

[World]

@reer_ugaas_hussein and @World

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I am not sure in regards to ahmed ibn hanbal specifically, but ibn qudamah the hanbali supports it. The extract you quoted is about a woman after becoming baligh rejecting the marriage her father arranged for her when she was a minor.

Ibn taymiyyah and ibn qayyim doesnt support forced marriage for both a minor or an adult virgin woman.

 

[Angelina]

what’s the argument here, that divorcee can be married off without her consent as opposed to non married virgins?

I don’t mean your position btw.

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Angelina]

I am not sure in regards to ahmed ibn hanbal specifically, but ibn qudamah the hanbali supports it. The extract you quoted is about a woman after becoming baligh rejecting the marriage her father arranged for her when she was a minor.

Ibn taymiyyah and ibn qayyim doesnt support forced marriage for both a minor or an adult virgin woman.

Yes

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Ibn Taymiyyah was goated. Actual common sense. He argues how the hell can forced marriage be halal if a woman has a right to her own wealth and to manage it but she doesn’t have a right to her own body?

He also looks at the aims of marriage which is companionship, having a halal outlet and mercy. He argues how can that even be achieved via a forced marriage?

Whats shocking about the classical opinions of Malikis and Shafis is that one literally has to ignore the Quran and the aims of marriage in order to justify forced marriages. It’s the lack of logic that baffles me. I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but you can’t say that marriage is meant to be one of affection and then force people. You can’t say woman have rights over money and assets but not her own body. It’s silly. Beyond silly.

 

[reer]

Al A'mash was a مدلس in hadith. Mudalis is someone who claims to have heard a hadith from someone he didn't and uses the sequence of 'on the authority' I.e عنعنة

make it clear youre not talking about the great imam al a'mash who was a tabi'i.

 

[World]

Yes

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Ibn Taymiyyah was goated. Actual common sense. He argues how the hell can forced marriage be halal if a woman has a right to her own wealth and to manage it but she doesn’t have a right to her own body?

He also looks at the aims of marriage which is companionship, having a halal outlet and mercy. He argues how can that even be achieved via a forced marriage?

Whats shocking about the classical opinions of Malikis and Shafis is that one literally has to ignore the Quran and the aims of marriage in order to justify forced marriages. It’s the lack of logic that baffles me. I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but you can’t say that marriage is meant to be one of affection and then force people. You can’t say woman have rights over money and assets but not her own body. It’s silly. Beyond silly.

al mughni by ibn qudamah is considered an authoritative traditional hanbali fiqh book afaik thats why it might not be his fringe opinion.

Ibn taymiyyah/qayyim i think are misunderstood by modern muslims, when you look at their work they actually were quite free thinkers and valued reasoning. Some of their positions included that hell wasn't eternal, and would eventually come to an end, because they didn't believe Allah's mercy would punish people into hellfire eternally. And Ibn Taymiyyah's last book was arguing this position, after his death Ibn Qayyim wrote a book defending it as well.

 

[Angelina]

al mughni by ibn qudamah is considered an authoritative traditional hanbali fiqh book afaik thats why it might not be his fringe opinion.

The reason why i say this is because every Hanbali scholar seems to follow the opinion that they cannot be compelled. Islamweb, Islamqa whilst Salafi actually records that the mainstream Hanbali opinion is that a virgin cannot be compelled and every fiqh I’ve read with regards to this topic about Hanbalis records the point I made.

Ibn taymiyyah/qayyim i think are misunderstood by modern muslims, when you look at their work they actually were quite free thinkers and valued reasoning.

I’ve never misunderstood Ibn Taymiyyah. I don’t agree with or understand everything he says but he is without doubt my favorite scholar and he’s fascinating.

Some of their positions included that hell wasn't eternal, and would eventually come to an end, because they didn't believe Allah's mercy would punish people into hellfire eternally. And Ibn Taymiyyah's last book was arguing this position, after his death Ibn Qayyim wrote a book defending it as well.

‘As for compelling her to marry against her will, this would contradict Islamic Law. Allah, the Exalted, did not permit a Wali to force her to sell or render her property without her permission. Nor did He permit him to force her to eat or drink or wear that which she does not wish. How could he (the Wali) then oblige her to accompany and copulate with a person whose company she hates - at the time when Allah has inseminated love and mercy between the two spouses? If such company happens, despite her hatred and repulsion, where is the love and mercy?’

 

[World]

The reason why i say this is because every Hanbali scholar seems to follow the opinion that they cannot be compelled. Islamweb, Islamqa whilst Salafi actually records that the mainstream Hanbali opinion is that a virgin cannot be compelled and every fiqh I’ve read with regards to this topic about Hanbalis records the point I made.

I’ve never misunderstood Ibn Taymiyyah. I don’t agree with or understand everything he says but he is without doubt my favorite scholar and he’s fascinating.

I think you could say modern Hanbalis argue that. But going back a few centuries, then it didn't seem so clear. But it's fair to say there was a difference of opinion.

 

[Angelina]

I think you could say modern Hanbalis argue that. But going back a few centuries, then it didn't seem so clear. But it's fair to say there was a difference of opinion.

TBH, modern Muslim scholars even Malikis and Shafis no longer believe in forced marriages. They simply can’t explain forced marriages to the masses as it’s not only immoral when you look at how marriage is presented in the Quran and Sunnah but also highly illogical.

I doubt you’d see a fatwa from a modern Shafi scholar allowing this.

 

[Awdalite]

make it clear youre not talking about the great imam al a'mash who was a tabi'i.

Many great Muhadditheen practised تدليس in hadith. It's not an attack on their character as you may erroneously assume. All it means is that you use the formulation of عنعنة in a report you never actually heard directly. The only consequence is that the hadith is not relied upon. Doesn't mean anything about who they were as an individual. A'mash is one of the greatest Ulama of the early generations.