Nilote/East African and Natufian/MENA

[The alchemist]

Where did you get that conclusion from? I never said I liked all of Barre’s policies. Yes he did bad things and I am not denying that, if he was an angel I would not be writing this in third world London as the daughter of regugees, I would be in my motherland. And I thoroughly agree with you on the point that Barre’s domestic and cultural policies brought about unity and patriotism. He should be praised and exemplified for that, not the other things.

The thing is though, he minus'ed his pluses at the end of the day. He gave us +1, and we ended up with -3 after him. So he should not be praised for shit when his actions directly fked our culture up.

 

[Cauli]

Since basically Nilotes still exist, the Natufians still exist too right. Don't come at me I never researched this stuff only see people comment about it once in a while in this forum.

So if Somalis are part nilote and natufian and nilote still exist basically the middle eastern people today are the natufians , basically the Arabs..

So Somalis are technically Nilo-Arab.

#SuugoScience

Somalis cannot be Nilotic, maternally. Nilotes do not carry the M1 and N mtDNA Haplogroups, whilst Somalis carry it in great numbers. These haplogroups should have been present in Nilotic speakers for this theory to have been taken more seriously. Its all suugo science.

"We analysed mtDNA variation in ~250 persons from Libya, Somalia, and Congo/Zambia, as representatives of the three regions of interest. Our initial results indicate a sharp cline in M1 frequencies that generally does not extend into sub-Saharan Africa. While our North and especially East African samples contained frequencies of M1 over 20%, our sub-Saharan samples consisted almost entirely of the L1 or L2 haplogroups only..."

AD. Holden (2005), MtDNA variation in North, East, and Central African populations gives clues to a possible back-migration from the Middle East Archived 3 March 2016 at the Wayback Machine, Program of the Seventy-Fourth Annual Meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists (2005)

 

[World]

Somalis cannot be Nilotic, maternally. Nilotes do not carry the M1 and N mtDNA Haplogroups, whilst Somalis carry it in great numbers. These haplogroups should have been present in Nilotic speakers for this theory to have been taken more seriously. Its all suugo science.

"We analysed mtDNA variation in ~250 persons from Libya, Somalia, and Congo/Zambia, as representatives of the three regions of interest. Our initial results indicate a sharp cline in M1 frequencies that generally does not extend into sub-Saharan Africa. While our North and especially East African samples contained frequencies of M1 over 20%, our sub-Saharan samples consisted almost entirely of the L1 or L2 haplogroups only..."

AD. Holden (2005), MtDNA variation in North, East, and Central African populations gives clues to a possible back-migration from the Middle East Archived 3 March 2016 at the Wayback Machine, Program of the Seventy-Fourth Annual Meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists (2005)

1. Haplogroups doesn’t represent ancestry. You could be 100 % European with a Bantu paternal haplogroup.

2. The majority of our mtDNA is indeed ancient Nilotic/East African (55-65%), whereas the rest (M1, N, etc) is West Eurasian. We have West Eurasian ancestry, whereas Nilotics don’t. Hence why we have Haplogroup M1 and N in great numbers, and they don’t.

 

[Cauli]

1. Haplogroups doesn’t represent ancestry. You could be 100 % European with a Bantu paternal haplogroup.

2. The majority of our mtDNA is indeed ancient Nilotic/East African (55-65%), whereas the rest (M1 and N) is West Eurasian. We have West Eurasian ancestry, whereas Nilotics don’t. Hence why we have Haplogroup M1 and N in great numbers, and they don’t.

Thats very obvious it doesnt represent ethnicty or race... Thats a straw man right there. It has a lot to do with ancestry though. If Somalis were born out of a combination of Levantines paternally and Nilotes maternally, that cannot explain the huge frequency of M and N mtDNA Haplogroups amongst Cushitic speakers and Somalis specifically.

The West Eurasian ancestry is mainly paternal and NOT maternal, hence why the Y-DNA's amongst Somalis are small in number, only E-V32, T and J.

Also, Somalis do not carry Y-DNA A3bn which is the most significant Nilotic Y-DNA marker. Had this admixture have taken place in huge numbers... This would have been present above outlier and noise frequencies.

 

[Apollo]

Thats very obvious it doesnt represent ethnicty or race... Thats a straw man right there. It has a lot to do with ancestry though. If Somalis were born out of a combination of Levantines paternally and Nilotes maternally, that cannot explain the huge frequency of M and N mtDNA Haplogroups amongst Cushitic speakers and Somalis specifically.

The West Eurasian ancestry is mainly paternal and NOT maternal, hence why the Y-DNA's amongst Somalis are small in number, only E-V32, T and J.

Also, Somalis do not carry Y-DNA A3bn which is the most significant Nilotic marker. Had this admixture have taken place in huge numbers... This would have been present above outlier and noise frequencies.

Wrong it is significantly maternal at a rate of 40-50%.

Most of the L lineages in Somalis are also carried in Nilo-Saharan groups. Especially L0a, L2a and L3f.

Secondly, the M/N/R0/U3/HV/J/T/K1a found in Somalis is from North African or South Levantine women. None of these lineages originated in the Horn. They are back-migrant lines.

 

[Cauli]

Wrong it is significantly maternal at a rate of 40-50%.

Most of the L lineages in Somalis are also carried in Nilo-Saharan groups. Especially L0a, L2a and L3f.

Secondly, the M/N/R0/U3/HV/J/T/K1a found in Somalis is from North African or South Levantine women. None of these lineages originated in the Horn. They are back-migrant lines.
.

Then why do Somalis not carry Y-DNA A3b2 above noise level? Considering that now you are saying its maternal.... There has to be a give away.

 

[Apollo]

Then why do Somalis not carry Y-DNA A3b2 above noise level?

Firstly, there was a paternal bottleneck in Somalis. Somalis are not a normal Horner population Y-wise. They have weird paternal profiles compared to all other Cushites with abnormal levels of two 3,000-year-old lineages.

Almost all Eritrean and Ethiopian groups have A3b above 5%, especially Amharas and Oromos. Even the Afar do.

 

[World]

Thats very obvious it doesnt represent ethnicty or race... Thats a straw man right there. It has a lot to do with ancestry though. If Somalis were born out of a combination of Levantines paternally and Nilotes maternally, that cannot explain the huge frequency of M and N mtDNA Haplogroups amongst Cushitic speakers and Somalis specifically.

The West Eurasian ancestry is mainly paternal and NOT maternal, hence why the Y-DNA's amongst Somalis are small in number, only E-V32, T and J.

Also, Somalis do not carry Y-DNA A3bn which is the most significant Nilotic Y-DNA marker. Had this admixture have taken place in huge numbers... This would have been present above outlier and noise frequencies.

Somalis are not born out of a combination of Levantines paternally and Nilotes maternally. Could you please bring me anybody on this forum or any study that states this?

The huge frequency of M, N and other West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups proves that the Levantines who migrated to North East Africa were also women, and not just men.

Somalis do carry the Y-DNA A3bn haplogroup above noise and outlier frequencies though. Probably at around 5 %, which is at the same level of Haplogroup J in Somalis.

Haplogroups are susceptible to population bottlenecks/founder effects which is why Somalis are 90 % E1b1b/T1a, and less than 10 ~ % everything else. On the other hand, other Horn of Africans like the Habeshas/Oromos/Afars have much more diversity and more African haplogroups. Somalis probably had the same amount of diversity 1000 years ago. Ethiopian Beta Israeli males (who are Agaws that converted to Judaism) for example carry the Y-DNA of A3bn at 41 %.

Our resident Ethiopian Tigray @ሕጊ።። member also carries A3bn.

 

[Cauli]

Somalis are not born out of a combination of Levantines paternally and Nilotes maternally. Could you please bring me anybody on this forum or any study that states this?

The huge frequency of M, N and other West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups proves that the Levantines who migrated to North East Africa were also women, and not just men.

Somalis do carry the Y-DNA A3bn haplogroup above noise and outlier frequencies though. Probably at around 5 %, which is at the same level of Haplogroup J in Somalis.

Haplogroups are susceptible to population bottlenecks/founder effects which is why Somalis are 90 % E1b1b/T1a, and less than 10 ~ % everything else. On the other hand, other Horn of Africans like the Habeshas/Oromos/Afars have much more diversity and more African haplogroups. Somalis probably had the same amount of diversity 1000 years ago. Ethiopian Beta Israeli males (who are Agaws that converted to Judaism) for example carry the Y-DNA of A3bn at 41 %.

That 41% for the Beta Israel, I wouldn't take too seriously because it was a small sample, they probably are around the same frequency for Oromos and Amharas which is 10-15% if a bigger sample was done. But I have to disagree with you about A3b2, it doesn't exist above noise level amongst Somalis. J is more frequent than A3b2, and J currently is about 3% of the Somali population.

Also remember that L3 is the ancestor of N and M. N and M originated in Asia, not Africa.

Somalis mainly carry L3 with lower numbers of L2.

Whilst Nilotes carry L0, L2, L3, L4 and L5. They also carry mtDNA I, in significant numbers which is neglible in relation to all Cushitic speakers.

By the time these admixtures existed... The Nilotes were not even an ethnic group. So the terminology itself to say 'mixed with Nilotes' is wrong since the Nilotic ethnic group didn't exist at that time.

 

[Apollo]

Also remember that L3 is the ancestor of N and M. N and M originated in Asia, not Africa.

L3 back-migrated 70,000 years ago and has become pan-African. U6 & M1 much later and is more Ancestral North African/Afro-Asiatic related.

M1 back-migrated along with U6 in the late palaeolithic and mainly stayed in North Africa for a long time (probably small Oases or the Northern Nile area) and only re-entered the Horn post-Holocene. It is positively correlated with North African or West Eurasian autosomal ancestry rather than with Sub-Saharan ancestry.

https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-12-234

Somalis mainly carry L3 with lower numbers of L2.

Whilst Nilotes carry L0, L2, L3, L4 and L5. They also carry mtDNA I, in significant numbers which is foreign to all Cushitic speakers.

I as in the letter i is a Eurasian haplogroup (N1a1b subclade) carried to the Horn by Afro-Asiatic speakers. It is not a native Nilote lineage. The ones in Northern Kenya who have it got it from Cushites. Cushites lived in Kenya before the Nilotes. There are Somalis on 23andMe who have i mt-lineages.

Just accept the ancient prehistoric mixture events. It is not a big deal. Today Somalis and Cushites are their own stabilized subrace, no need to deny shit that happened thousands of years ago.

 

[Cauli]

L3 back-migrated 70,000 years ago and has become pan-African. U6 & M1 much later and is more Ancestral North African/Afro-Asiatic related.

M1 back-migrated along with U6 in the late palaeolithic and mainly stayed in North Africa for a long time (probably small Oases or the Northern Nile area) and only re-entered the Horn post-Holocene. It is positively correlated with North African or West Eurasian autosomal ancestry rather than with Sub-Saharan ancestry.

https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-12-234



I as in the letter i is a Eurasian haplogroup (N1a1b subclade) carried to the Horn by Afro-Asiatic speakers. It is not a native Nilote lineage. The ones in Northern Kenya who have it got it from Cushites. Cushites lived in Kenya before the Nilotes. There are Somalis on 23andMe who have i mt-lineages.

Just accept the ancient prehistoric mixture events. It is not a big deal. Today Somalis and Cushites are their own stabilized subrace, no need to deny shit that happened thousands of years ago.

@Apollo
I do agree that there were admixtures. However, don't you agree that referring to them as 'Nilotes' is incorrect?
Surely the Nilotic ethnic group didn't exist then, right?

 

[The alchemist]

@Apollo
I do agree that there were admixtures. However, don't you agree that referring to them as 'Nilotes' is incorrect?
Surely the Nilotic ethnic group didn't exist then, right?

Proto-Nilotic would be more accurate, I believe.

 

[911]

@Apollo Is this accurate?
Why the difference between Ethiopian Somalis & other Somalis?

 

[Cauli]

Proto-Nilotic would be more accurate, I believe.

Proto Nilotes existed during the same time as the Proto Cushites.
So, even that term would be problematic.

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

Proto Nilotes existed during the same time as the Proto Cushites.
So, even that term would be problematic.

It's not problematic.

The Proto-Nilotes were still Sub-Saharan Africans just like their modern descendants. Whereas, the Original/Proto-Cushites were North African. Modern Cushites now carry significant SSA admixture, due to mixing with proto-Nilotes and no longer look like their proto-Afro-Asiatic ancestors.

 

[Apollo]

@Apollo Is this accurate?
Why the difference between Ethiopian Somalis & other Somalis?
View attachment 64588

Somalia ethnic Somalis descend almost completely from North Sudanese Neolithic Cushites with little to no local Paleo-HOA input, whereas Ethiopian Somalis carry more Ethiopian hunter-gatherer admixture from Omotics via Southern Oromos.

That's the only difference (excluding Bantu or Benadiri outliers who may exist in Somalia, but they weren't included in that particular study).

Proto Nilotes existed during the same time as the Proto Cushites.
So, even that term would be problematic.

I prefer the terms: Ancestral North African (ANA), Ancestral East African (AEA) to refer to these old populations instead of using more modern terms.

 

[Cauli]

It's not problematic.

The Proto-Nilotes were still Sub-Saharan Africans just like their modern descendants. Whereas, the Original/Proto-Cushites were North African. Modern Cushites now carry significant SSA admixture, due to mixing with proto-Nilotes and no longer look like their proto-Afro-Asiatic ancestors.

Ancestral North African (ANA) and Ancestral East African (AEA) makes much more sense like @Apollo mentioned. Also, this admixture is pre-agricultural. Meaning it's before these ethnic groups formed into their own distinct identitites. In other words, this admixture existed before the appearance of the Proto Nilote. So that term is debunked.

Ancestral North African and Ancestral East African makes more sense.

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

Ancestral North African (ANA) and Ancestral East African (AEA) makes much more sense like @Apollo mentioned. Also, this admixture is pre-agricultural. Meaning it's before these ethnic groups formed into their own distinct identitites. In other words, this admixture existed before the appearance of the Proto Nilote. So that term is debunked.

Ancestral North African and Ancestral East African makes more sense.

No. When the two groups met they came from separate races that each had their own racial phenotypes respectively(one being Eurasian/North African & the other being SSA). You're simply playing with semantics.

Just accept ancient racial mixing happened which created modern Cushites & move on.

 

[Cauli]

No. When the two groups met they came from separate races that each had their own racial phenotypes respectively.

Just accept ancient racial mixing happened which created modern Cushites & move on.

I accept the ancient admixture of ANA and AEA. But I reject the term 'Nilote' because its false.

Do you know when Proto Nilotes' earliest existance was? The 2rd to 3rd Millenium BC. The admixture amongst present day Cushites existed well before this time.

My issue is with the term...

ANA and AEA are absolutely perfect.

 

[SOMALI GENERAL]

I accept the ancient admixture of ANA and AEA. But I reject the term 'Nilote' because its false.

Do you know when Proto Nilotes' earliest existance was? The 2rd to 3rd Millenium BC. The admixture amongst present day Cushites existed well before this time.

My issue is with the term...

ANA and AEA are absolutely perfect.

Bottom line is they were still SSA

It's all semantics at the end of the day.