Punt...new YouTube video

[Idilinaa]

@Idilinaa I think I found a direct textual from ancient Egyptian sources that mention Ethiopia being Punt.
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Thats nothing really new, that's been a theory. It don't really fit with other descriptions of Punt by the Egyptians, since how would Egyptians carry Frankinscense trees and unload them onto ships directly from an deep remote highland mountain area?

''Her temple relief show that each of the 31 heave incense trees required 4-6 men to transport them to the carge ships, or 124 to 186 Egyptian and Puntite carriers in total. Since there were around 150 crewmen on the expedition five vessels (30 ship), this would mean that ''the frankincense terraces of punt'' had to have been situated near the seashore''

Because what they refrence punt in the temple relief is that of a coastal seashore next to a river with an adjacent Mountain where there is ''Terraces of frankincense'' grows which other say this is a description that corresponds with the Northern Somali literol. . In particular, the northeastern section extending from Bandar Qasim to Alula.

 

[Zak12]

Thats nothing really new, that's been a theory. It don't really fit with other descriptions of Punt by the Egyptians, since how would Egyptians carry Frankinscense trees and unload them onto ships directly from an deep remote highland mountain area?

''Her temple relief show that each of the 31 heave incense trees required 4-6 men to transport them to the carge ships, or 124 to 186 Egyptian and Puntite carriers in total. Since there were around 150 crewmen on the expedition five vessels (30 ship), this would mean that ''the frankincense terraces of punt'' had to have been situated near the seashore''

Because what they refrence punt in the temple relief is that of a coastal seashore next to a river with an adjacent Mountain where there is ''Terraces of frankincense'' grows which other say this is a description that corresponds with the Northern Somali literol. . In particular, the northeastern section extending from Bandar Qasim to Alula.

I see. Yeah perhaps the description doesn't fit, including this one. There was also evidence of wood in Egypt being sourced from Ethiopia too

I also find it interesting that "Habesha" was possibly mentiones by the Egyptians. Similar to how "Barbar" was mentioned in their records too. Perhaps that is the origin of those names?

 

[Idilinaa]

I see. Yeah perhaps the description doesn't fit, including this one. There was also evidence of wood in Egypt being sourced from Ethiopia too

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I also find it interesting that "Habesha" was possibly mentiones by the Egyptians. Similar to how "Barbar" was mentioned in their records too. Perhaps that is the origin of those names?

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I prefer direct descriptions and relief paintings of expeditions.

What you shown is unlike the Frankincense trees they directly acquired from punt and unloaded onto their ships, that's why the frankincense holds the more of a significance as a product. Other products like ''precious wood'' could have been sourced from elsewhere via punt.

''documenting the exchange of food and drink for myrrh, ebony, gold, precious woods, slaves and ivory, but some of these items came via punt not from it''

I've seen that theory before. The bearded ones lool. It could be and that name makes sense you see Puntites depicted with long beards in the Egyptian reliefs.

 

[Zak12]

@Idilinaa One more thing: what do you think about the Gash Culture/Jebel Mokram = Punt theory? It surprisingly fits

They had large argicultural settlements, hierarchy and evidence of long distance trade like imported goods, storehouses, stamp seals and cowries (evidence of coastal trade), while at the same time Ethiopia and Somalia were still purely pastoral societies. The also lived in a floodplain which matches Egyptian depictions of a riverine society with stilt-houses.

The society, local resources, landscape, fauna and chronology all line up with the descriptions of Punt given in Egyptian texts and murals. Not to mention the dates match up. Expeditions to Punt end around 1000 BC, which is same time the Jebel Mokram culture disappears.

 

[Idilinaa]

@Idilinaa One more thing: what do you think about the Gash Culture/Jebel Mokram = Punt theory? It surprisingly fits

They had large argicultural settlements, hierarchy and evidence of long distance trade like imported goods, storehouses, stamp seals and cowries (evidence of coastal trade), while at the same time Ethiopia and Somalia were still purely pastoral societies. The also lived in a floodplain which matches Egyptian depictions of a riverine society with stilt-houses.

The society, local resources, landscape, fauna and chronology all line up with the descriptions of Punt given in Egyptian texts and murals. Not to mention the dates match up. Expeditions to Punt end around 1000 BC, which is same time the Jebel Mokram culture disappears.

The gash group does not fit at all. I explained this before: Like you said it was hierarchical but punt that Egyptians described was not.

Based on the Ancient Egyptian descriptions Punt was more like a localized emporium, than all-emcompassing one hugging different regions and decentralized headed by werew (chieftain). This is different than the hierarchical/centralized nature of the Gash group.

It's rooted in a casual assumption by writers that punt was a centralized kingdom , when it reality it was depicted more as a trading emporium.

The other rationale is that its closer to Egypt, which really would not had mattered to the Egyptians who would go far distances to get products that they regarded as highly valuable and you can also see this contact carried on when Greco-Romans got control of Egypt.

The houses on stilts is also commonly associated with people living near coastal seashores not just riverines so that doesn't exclude anything, plus from an botanical/archeological standpoint during this period shows that the northern Somalia was much more fertile with perennial rivers with different types of animals living there suited to a wetter climate.

As for the descriptions of landscapes , fauna and flora it narrows it somewhere in the Horn of Africa.

 

[Zak12]

And Somalia is the only place that they have direct textual evidence that collaborate with Egyptian inscriptions

Quick question, couldn't Pliny's record of Sesotris going to Mosylon be an innovation of his? The actual primary source of Sesotris going to Punt doesn't mention any place in Somalia

 

[Idilinaa]

Quick question, couldn't Pliny's record of Sesotris going to Mosylon be an innovation of his? The actual primary source of Sesotris going to Punt doesn't mention any place in Somalia
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How would it be an innovation? Sesostris went to punt as the stalae says, and Pliny never says he went to Punt but specifies that he led an expedition to Mosylon promontory which is in Hafun.

But yeah it's not a conclusive slam dunk but an evidence nonetheless.

 

[Zak12]

How would it be an innovation? Sesostris went to punt as the stalae says, and Pliny never says he went to Punt but specifies that he led an expedition to Mosylon promontory which is in Hafun.

But yeah it's not a conclusive slam dunk but an evidence nonetheless.

Just playing devil's advocate to strengthen the argument lol

Anyways Idilina I want to go back to the baboon study since I noticed something else interesting. According to the 2020 Dominy study, he claims most scholars favor a Sudan-Ethiopia-Eritrea location over Somalia. What do you make of this?

Mummified baboons reveal the far reach of early Egyptian mariners

The fabled land of Punt is mapped for the first time using quantitative methods from the disciplines of primatology, geochemistry, and geography.

elifesciences.org

 

[Idilinaa]

Just playing devil's advocate to strengthen the argument lol

Anyways Idilina I want to go back to the baboon study since I noticed something else interesting. According to the 2020 Dominy study, he claims most scholars favor a Sudan-Ethiopia-Eritrea location over Somalia. What do you make of this?

Mummified baboons reveal the far reach of early Egyptian mariners

The fabled land of Punt is mapped for the first time using quantitative methods from the disciplines of primatology, geochemistry, and geography.

elifesciences.org

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Actually when the scientist tested the Baboon specimens they matched it to Eritrea and Somalia: Where the baboon species stretches into and this was back in 2021 and they said at the time that Eritrea & Somalia was the two leading contenders.

The scientists said they cannot differentiate the baboon specimens from Eritrea and Somalia from each-other.

They interviewed them not too long ago:
Locating the ancient lost city of Punt with mummified baboons Scientists are able to narrow down the location of Punt by analysing ancient baboon remains

And so then we can match the mummified specimens that are present at the British Museum to populations in those areas. And the great thing about our analysis is we could definitively rule out some places, and we showed a very strong match to animals living in Eritrea and Somalia today.

We can rule those places out. And we can say definitively that it was somewhere in Africa, on the horn of Africa, probably in Eritrea and Somalia. We can't distinguish between those two places, which are the two contending places that most scholars agree on.

It's only recently the whole gash group hypothesis came to be:

The gash group does not fit at all. I explained this before: Like you said it was hierarchical but punt that Egyptians described was not.

It's rooted in a casual assumption by writers that punt was a centralized kingdom , when it reality it was depicted more as a trading emporium.

The other rationale is that its closer to Egypt, which really would not had mattered to the Egyptians who would go far distances to get products that they regarded as highly valuable and you can also see this contact carried on when Greco-Romans got control of Egypt.

 

[Zak12]

they said at the time that Eritrea & Somalia was the two leading contenders

For Punt? Because the study itself states that most scholars think Punt wasn't in Somalia. But perhaps that has no bearing on what Dominy himself thinks

 

[Idilinaa]

For Punt? Because the study itself states that most scholars think Punt wasn't in Somalia. But perhaps that has no bearing on what Dominy himself thinks

They interviewed the scientist directly in 2021 click the link i shared. The other stuff is peoples opinions really.

 

[Zak12]

They interviewed the scientist directly in 2021 click the link i shared. The other stuff is peoples opinions really.

According to this more recent one, they don't mention Somalia

Mummified baboons point to the direction of the fabled land of Punt

Egyptians often mentioned a trading partner but neglected to say where it was.

arstechnica.com

 

[Idilinaa]

According to this more recent one, they don't mention Somalia

Mummified baboons point to the direction of the fabled land of Punt

Egyptians often mentioned a trading partner but neglected to say where it was.

arstechnica.com

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''are forced to speculate a bit''

Thats says it all, its mostly a speculation. It's exactly like what i said on my first post on this thread:

Last few minutes in the video , he makes it very clear that it's mostly speculative.

The baboon specimen is far from a slam dunk, because P.Hamadryas is what they found and as you can see it encompasses a much wider area than Sudan & Eritrea.

And Somalia is the only place that they have direct textual evidence that collaborate with Egyptian inscriptions. This needs to be brought to peoples attention.

The significance of punt:


Another possibility is that Punt could encompass a wider region and they could be at times talking about different regions in the south of them and labelling them under the umbrella of Punt.

 

[Zak12]

Sorry for dragging this topic back up but I came across this study last year about Punt that sheds more info about it. Apparently it thinks the Baboon study Dominy did in 2020 was of limited value and Dominy himself is apart of this 2023 paper. @Idilinaa thoughts?

Adulis and the transshipment of baboons during classical antiquity

The first sequenced mitogenome of a mummified non-human primate connects an Egyptian baboon dated to ca. 800–540 BCE to modern baboon populations in Eritrea, Ethiopia, and eastern Sudan, providing evidence for Egyptian–Adulite trade centuries earlier than current archaeological evidence.

elifesciences.org

 

[Idilinaa]

Sorry for dragging this topic back up but I came across this study last year about Punt that sheds more info about it. Apparently it thinks the Baboon study Dominy did in 2020 was of limited value and Dominy himself is apart of this 2023 paper. @Idilinaa thoughts?

Adulis and the transshipment of baboons during classical antiquity

The first sequenced mitogenome of a mummified non-human primate connects an Egyptian baboon dated to ca. 800–540 BCE to modern baboon populations in Eritrea, Ethiopia, and eastern Sudan, providing evidence for Egyptian–Adulite trade centuries earlier than current archaeological evidence.

elifesciences.org

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Even the current study method has problems .

DNA of the mummified baboon shows post-mortem damage

Also the study says the same thing, that it is mostly speculative and conjecture.

Such a conclusion must be viewed with caution, but it bolsters recurrent conjecture ... giving weight to speculation

I also find it the biggest reach to focus heavily on Baboon samples or other stuff or weird metaphors , when the most accurate information you have of punt is Hashepsuts expedition that not only does it describe Punt but also shows them taking the trees directly from it and low and behold the it's the same exact ones you find in the NorthernEastern Somalia.

But yeah i think ultimately with settle it, will be archeology.

 

[Zak12]

to focus heavily on Baboon samples

Its the only direct link we have of Punt being in the Horn until we get DNA from other animals. Its not a smoking gun but I figure its still important anyhow.

it's the same exact ones

You mean Boswellia Carterii and Frereana? That helps but its still pretty weak evidence overall given human factors that may be at play that influences the plant distribution.

will be archeology.

Agreed. This 2023 study and others like it focus on Eritrea because they have easier access to it compared to northern Somalia which has seen barely any archeological work.

 

[Idilinaa]

Its the only direct link we have of Punt being in the Horn until we get DNA from other animals. Its not a smoking gun but I figure its still important anyhow.

You mean Boswellia Carterii and Frereana? That helps but its still pretty weak evidence overall given human factors that may be at play that influences the plant distribution.

Agreed. This 2023 study and others like it focus on Eritrea because they have easier access to it compared to northern Somalia which has seen barely any archeological work.

It's like i said before all other products could have been sourced from elsewhere and not from punt, the baboon study is flimsy at best, because it covers wide geography.

The only direct piece of information that we do have is Hashepsuts expedition and the frankincense is more of an evidence because they directly acquired it from Punt and it's nearly impossible to grow frankincense trees outside their native environments. Also we get a description that is similar to the Northern Eastern coast of Somalia, where both those plant species are found together. It was also the main product.

And easier access matter not to Egyptians. This is what i mean by this being wholly speculative, they have an image in their minds about it that they want to set out to prove , instead of keeping to the facts in front of them.

Egyptians would have gone major distances just like we saw with Romans and Greeks who took after them to get products they found valuable , easy access or being close matter not to them.

 

[Zak12]

easy access or being close matter not to them.

Want to clarify here, by "easy access" I meant for scholars and archeologists reearching Punt. You can agree that Eritrea is a more accessible country than Somalia is hence why the most recent papers all talk about Eritrea and not Somalia.

It is true that scholars are more interested in proving their preconceived notions than actually analyzing the evidence in front of them. For some, being the first to claim where ancient civilization like Punt is would be a major career defining moment hence why they will rush to the place (Eritrea) they have an easier time getting into.

You have to look at this news from the perspective of these researchers, Somalia’s flora, fauna and ancient sites are off-limits to them, yet they want the credit and fame of rediscovering an ancient kingdom, so they will move ahead with the country they do have access to, which is Eritrea. In the process they will have to ignore that identical baboons are also present in the northern regions of Somalia, and that a specific variety of frankincense found in Ancient Egyptian tombs can only be sourced from Somalia.

via @Somali_patriotic;

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