remember when the Egyptian president used Somalia as an example of failire?

[Idilinaa]

How did you come to that conclusion?! Somalia was and is a failed State. You cannot dispute that fact.

First things first, it hasn't been considered a failed state since 2015.

Somalia no longer a failed state, just a fragile one, says UN

United Nations representative in the country says the country has stabilised although security concerns still remain high

www.theguardian.com

And secondly, It never was a failed as a state to begin with. You cannot remove a government, intervene in an area and destabilize it then label it a failed state. It's bogus.

Post a reputable source that backs your claim.

Alright

Private sector growth

Private sector key in accelerating Somalia’s economic growth

Private sector key in accelerating Somalia’s economic growth

garoweonline.com

The private companies have emerged as important drivers of economic growth. They are transforming key sectors such as telecommunications, finance, and energy.

Nr.1 university in East Africa

SIMAD University in Mogadishu has been ranked #1 in the region and among Africa's top 10 universities

@Midas @Zak12 @Galool Source: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/sub-saharan-africa-university-rankings This actually makes me a lot more hopeful for the future of Somali educational system with just a bit more funding and stability Somali universities can easily be in the top 3 in the near...

www.somalispot.com

SSA University Rankings

Explore the top ranked universities in Sub-Saharan Africa Discover the top universities in Sub-Saharan Africa with the Times Higher Education Sub-Saharan Africa University Rankings 2024.

www.timeshighereducation.com

Real estate boom:

Somalia: Mogadishu emerges in real estate projects | Africanews

Mogadishu, a city dubbed the most dangerous city in the world, is now emerging from the ashes of war. Two decades of street fighting among warlords left Somalia's elegant villas in ruins.

www.africanews.com

Somalia Experiences Remarkable Revival in Real Estate Sector

In a surprising and welcome development, Somalia is marking a triumphant return to the forefront of the real estate sector, signaling a positive shift in the country's economic landscape. After years of instability, economic challenges, and political turmoil, the nation is now witnessing a...

www.africanexponent.com

Are we any better than them in any of those categories?!

Yes we are, wealth is spread out more amongst Somalis. So the average Somali lives economically better. There is more affordable housing projects initiatives then some vanity mega projects and satellite cities like in Egypt/Ethiopia.

... And we don't have slums and IDP camps?! Think logically before critiquing anyone else.

We don't have slums and IDP are people displaced due to conflict or climate catastrophe from their real homes, they often return back to their homes or are given new housing.

 

[Idilinaa]

These people don't understand that political turmoil in Egypt I'd rather live in Somalia any day then Egypt and one thing I dislike is how densely populated Egypt is and how much of money wasting idiots Egyptian leaders are they have close to hundred and some billion dollars worth of debt with high inflation what type of life is that.

They waste their money on useless mega projects that fail and bankrupt the economy or pump it into the military.

What about investing in infrastructure , health care, education and creating better living conditions for the average Egyptian?

 

[X29]

They waste their money on useless mega projects that fail and bankrupt the economy or pump it into the military.

What about investing in infrastructure , health care, education and creating better living conditions for the average Egyptian?

Wallahi people don't know how blessed we are

 

[Karim]

First things first, it hasn't been considered a failed state since 2015.

Somalia no longer a failed state, just a fragile one, says UN

United Nations representative in the country says the country has stabilised although security concerns still remain high

www.theguardian.com

And secondly, It never was a failed as a state to begin with. You cannot remove a government, intervene in an area and destabilize it then label it a failed state. It's bogus.

You didn't even respond to my comment that suggested they changed the term "failed" to "fragile" to describe the countries with the worst governments in the world. Tell me one Failed State in the world right now according to ETH Zurich or the world bank or the United Nations?! It doesn't exist as they tweaked the name to fit their political correctness. Somalia tops the list of fragile countries as of their 2024 rankings.

Plus, nobody "intervened" to remove the Somali government, rebel groups mainly USC and SPM toppled the government forcing Siad Barre to flee on 26th of January, 1991 and the rebels couldn't establish a successor government.

Nr.1 university in East Africa

SIMAD University in Mogadishu has been ranked #1 in the region and among Africa's top 10 universities

@Midas @Zak12 @Galool Source: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/sub-saharan-africa-university-rankings This actually makes me a lot more hopeful for the future of Somali educational system with just a bit more funding and stability Somali universities can easily be in the top 3 in the near...

www.somalispot.com

SSA University Rankings

Explore the top ranked universities in Sub-Saharan Africa Discover the top universities in Sub-Saharan Africa with the Times Higher Education Sub-Saharan Africa University Rankings 2024.

www.timeshighereducation.com

Real estate boom:

Somalia: Mogadishu emerges in real estate projects | Africanews

Mogadishu, a city dubbed the most dangerous city in the world, is now emerging from the ashes of war. Two decades of street fighting among warlords left Somalia's elegant villas in ruins.

www.africanews.com

Somalia Experiences Remarkable Revival in Real Estate Sector

In a surprising and welcome development, Somalia is marking a triumphant return to the forefront of the real estate sector, signaling a positive shift in the country's economic landscape. After years of instability, economic challenges, and political turmoil, the nation is now witnessing a...

www.africanexponent.com

Hahaha your link itself says that two Rwandan universities rank higher than SIMAD.

Yes we are, wealth is spread out more amongst Somalis. So the average Somali lives economically better. There is more affordable housing projects initiatives then some vanity mega projects and satellite cities like in Egypt/Ethiopia.

The question was are we any better in terms of healthcare, education, and infrastructure?! To be honest, it's mind boggling you would even compare those countries to ours considering our OWN people go to these countries for education and healthcare. Sometimes rationality goes out the window when you refuse to accept an empirically verifiable reality.

 

[Idilinaa]

You didn't even respond to my comment that suggested they changed the term "failed" to "fragile" to describe the countries with the worst governments in the world. Tell me one Failed State in the world right now according to ETH Zurich or the world bank or the United Nations?! It doesn't exist as they tweaked the name to fit their political correctness. Somalia tops the list of fragile countries as of their 2024 rankings.

That article was from 2015 but yeah it's still a recovering state. The world bank thinks the same .

Rebuilding Somalia: Renewing Social Contract in a Fragile State Amidst Revenue Challenges

• Efforts to enhance revenue show promising signs, with projections indicating an increase in the domestic revenue-to-GDP ratio to 4.5% by 2030. Collaboration across government and partnerships between state and private providers could enhance better service delivery. The book recommends...

www.worldbank.org

Since forming the Federal govt in 2012 and stability has been brought to a lot of areas and it has made leaps in rebuilding itself. Largely due the private sector and the formation of a security apparatus.

Now Public sector is rebuilding it's institutions, rebuilding its trade diplomatic partners, trying to attract foreign investment, boost security, collect tax revenue and build a path way for direct elections happening in 2025-2026.

Plus, nobody "intervened" to remove the Somali government, rebel groups mainly USC and SPM toppled the government forcing Siad Barre to flee on 26th of January, 1991 and the rebels couldn't establish a successor government.

They were all organized, funded, armed by Ethiopia & their allies Isreal, Libya and they were Ethiopian proxies that carried out the orders of Ethiopia who sought to create chaos in Somalia to prevent it from perusing its goals in Ogaden in the future or replace it with a less hostile government. And Yes Ethiopia directly intervened it supplied rebels with troops and it also launched an invasion 1982-3 to occupy parts of Somalia which was unsucessful.
SPM had zero role in toppling the government neither did SDDF, SNM they were all defeated by the national government. They resurfaced after, all they did was manage to harrass the government which eventually exhausted it's resources.

Then in the after math you had united states invade/intervene which undermined local authorities, in their attempt plant a government and they kept arming warlords that emerged out of thouse groups after pulling out., engaged in a proxy war. It's why Puntland/Somaliand stabilized because they were largely left alone and the local leadership was able to do their thing.

Then after things stabilized in the early 2000s with a new government forming they backed an Ethiopian invasion to dismantle it and CIA/Mossad kept arming warlod alliance to combat the government that brought peace and stability. That ended up birthing Alshabab , whose Somali membership based has dwindled over the years and they largely rely more on foreigners.

So yes it's been a series of foreign interventions, meddlings. So suffice to say how can anyone say Somalia failed when it's outside induced?

But yeah that's thing of the past to me, because Somalia has progressed and is headed largely in a good direction.

Hahaha your link itself says that two Rwandan universities rank higher than SIMAD. View attachment 351748

Do you see Zimbabwe , Egypt or Eritrea on that list? It's only a handful of countries that are in top.

So it shows big progress and major improvements.

And Simaad is an university co-founded by the president HSM i might add.

On top of that it shows Somalis commitment to provide better education to their people as more are returning to develop these institutions.

Diaspora academics are returning to develop universities

More and more Somali academics who left their country to study abroad, or who immigrated, are returning to home soil, even though salaries are dismal ...

www.universityworldnews.com

The question was are we any better in terms of healthcare, education, and infrastructure?! To be honest, it's mind boggling you would even compare those countries to ours considering our OWN people go to these countries for education and healthcare. Sometimes rationality goes out the window when you refuse to accept an empirically verifiable reality.

Aside from the booming affordable housing projects (which is happening in all Somali regions)

Rebuilding Mogadishu: The Rise of Affordable Housing Estates in Somalia's Capital - MyProperty.so

Somalia, a country once ravaged by two decades of civil war, is experiencing a remarkable transformation in its real estate sector. After years of instability and destruction, Mogadishu, the capital city, is witnessing a surge in housing development, driven by the return of diaspora Somalis and...

www.myproperty.so

along with private sector developments. There is a growing health care industry as well

Meanwhile, Somalia's private healthcare sector is thriving, with a 60% share of total health expenditure,

Its a mix of private providers and government expenditure. It shows with or without an effective government or in instability Somalis go out of their way to deliver and fund services to their people.

The most dramatic progress and changes will happen these next few years.

 

[Zak12]

And secondly, It never was a failed as a state to begin with. You cannot remove a government, intervene in an area and destabilize it then label it a failed state. It's bogus.

"Failed state" was always a media buzzword. Not only is there no agreed upon definition of that phrase, but it attempts to lump in various countries like Afghanistan, Haiti, North Korea together which are all so vastly different from each other and with issues that can't be remotely compared. No serious analyst uses that term and its been getting more and more criticized.

"Failed States." | Department of Sociology

www.soc.lu.se

National security analysts held that the failed state agenda was an overconfident and misguided foreign policy rationale that seriously underestimated the difficulties of state building operations. In academic circles, the concept has been criticized for being vaguely defined in that a clear and coherent set of indicators for what constitutes failed states is lacking. As a result, different kinds of states, such as Afghanistan, North Korea, Haiti, Iraq and Colombia, have been lumped together into an undifferentiated mass under one label. In the wake of such criticism, scholars have recently developed more nuanced and refined categories to discriminate between kinds and degrees of state failure.

More importantly, "failed state" implies Somalia's government was so inept, corrupt and did not provide enough for its citizens that it lead to a collapse when as you already pointed out, it was literally under assault by foreign actors and the government tried its hardest to protect its citizens and keep the country together. How can that possibly mean Somalia failed? By their logic China has "failed" multiple times due to its history of having many civil wars (mostly of its accord). Hell, I hardly see anyone calling Myanmar a failed state either despite that country being dysfunctional for far longer than Somalia has.

 

[Idilinaa]

"Failed state" was always a media buzzword. Not only is there no agreed upon definition of that phrase, but it attempts to lump in various countries like Afghanistan, Haiti, North Korea together which are all so vastly different from each other and with issues that can't be remotely compared. No serious analyst uses that term and its been getting more and more criticized.

"Failed States." | Department of Sociology

www.soc.lu.se

National security analysts held that the failed state agenda was an overconfident and misguided foreign policy rationale that seriously underestimated the difficulties of state building operations. In academic circles, the concept has been criticized for being vaguely defined in that a clear and coherent set of indicators for what constitutes failed states is lacking. As a result, different kinds of states, such as Afghanistan, North Korea, Haiti, Iraq and Colombia, have been lumped together into an undifferentiated mass under one label. In the wake of such criticism, scholars have recently developed more nuanced and refined categories to discriminate between kinds and degrees of state failure.

More importantly, "failed state" implies Somalia's government was so inept, corrupt and did not provide enough for its citizens that it lead to a collapse when as you already pointed out, it was literally under assault by foreign actors and the government tried its hardest to protect its citizens and keep the country together. How can that possibly mean Somalia failed? By their logic China has "failed" multiple times due to its history of having many civil wars (mostly of its accord). Hell, I hardly see anyone calling Myanmar a failed state either despite that country being dysfunctional for far longer than Somalia has.

It's targeted slander. Karim and others use it deliberately as a pejorative really to dismiss Somalia as a state or de-legitimize it . Language like that is often employed with a political agenda behind it, it's kinda like the word ''terrorist'' and how people use it improperly for certain armed resistance, whereas others are exempt from that label.

The kryptonite to this like other things i have noticed, is to hold internationally community accountable for their foreign meddling/interference and to show how resilient Somalia is and how much progress it has been making.

Whenever i mention this and how much it's improved and how brighter the future outlook for the country is, they start seething and plotting these threads. Like it personally angers them somehow.

 

[Karim]

That article was from 2015 but yeah it's still a recovering state. The world bank thinks the same

The conversation becomes unproductive if you don't accept the reality, "failed State" was replaced by "fragile State" as it is less offensive. The question you're not addressing is: WHO TOPS THE CURRENT FRAGILE STATES?!! Don't circle around the question and directly answer it.

They were all organized, funded, armed by Ethiopia & their allies Isreal, Libya and they were Ethiopian proxies that carried out the orders of Ethiopia who sought to create chaos in Somalia to prevent it from perusing its goals in Ogaden in the future or replace it with a less hostile government.

Somalia itself armed rebels to topple the Ethiopian government at that time. The rebels were TPLF, EPLF, OLF, ONLF, and WSLF. This was part of a reciprocal strategy of destabilization between Somalia and Ethiopia that contributed to the forced exile of both Barre and Mengistu in 1991.

Rebels supported by Somalia established a functioning government that led to growth and sustained development over 3 decades while the Somali rebels couldn't establish a functioning government. The entire blame lies with the USC and SPM, the two allied rebel groups that forced Siad Barre to flee Mogadishu. Eventually they disintegrated, massacred each other and miserably failed to established even a smaller regional government to protect their people.
FYI, SPM weren't defeated by the government. Please do some research before you stubbornly stick with that false statement.

Do you see Zimbabwe , Egypt or Eritrea on that list? It's only a handful of countries that are in top.

You said Nr. 1 in East Africa contradicting YOUR LINK itself that says two other East African universities rank higher than SIMAD. Please, admit you're wrong sometimes and that you made a mistake. It's not that hard subxanallah.

Aside from the booming affordable housing projects (which is happening in all Somali regions)

Rebuilding Mogadishu: The Rise of Affordable Housing Estates in Somalia's Capital - MyProperty.so

Somalia, a country once ravaged by two decades of civil war, is experiencing a remarkable transformation in its real estate sector. After years of instability and destruction, Mogadishu, the capital city, is witnessing a surge in housing development, driven by the return of diaspora Somalis and...

www.myproperty.so

along with private sector developments. There is a growing health care industry as well

Its a mix of private providers and government expenditure. It shows with or without an effective government or in instability Somalis go out of their way to deliver and fund services to their people.

The most dramatic progress and changes will happen these next few years

Why do you keep deflecting from the question and keep on using buzzwords like "private sector" "housing projects" etc?! The question was; are we any better than those countries when it comes to healthcare, education and infrastructure?! Don't run to your buzzwords that has nothing to do with the question at hand. I didn't ask you if we're "recovering" or "if progress and change will happen in the next few years" etc.

 

[Zak12]

"failed State" was replaced by "fragile State" as it is less offensive.

Fragile state is more accurate since "failed state" never had any meaning to begin with.

while the Somali rebels couldn't establish a functioning government

So are we going to ignore SNM and SSDF establishing Somaliland and Puntland which are both stable and functioning?

Somalia itself armed rebels to topple the Ethiopian government at that time.

Somalia stopped doing in 1986 as per the agreement made between Barre and Mengistu. However, Ethiopia would continue to support warlords and rebels long after and even during the 90s and 2000s.

Eventually they disintegrated, massacred each other

The blame goes on the U.S and UN. The horrible blunder of the UN peacekeeping mission in 1991 led to the massacre of Hawiye elders who were in peace talks to end the escalating violence. That single event radicalized Somalis and pushed them to support Aidid and his faction. If that wasn't enough, the CIA would literally support warlords during the 2000s like what Ethiopia was doing.

The pattern is very clear, the south saw numerous foreign interventions and meddling by Ethiopia and America which prevented state building from happening whereas the north saw none of that hence why it is stable.

Most people don't consider Yemen or Libya to be failed states. Why? Because everyone acknowledges that those governments didn't actually fail, it was foreign invasions that caused state collapse. The exact same thing happened in Somalia yet everyone including you keeps thinking Somalia is a failed state.

 

[Karim]

Fragile state is more accurate since "failed state" never had any meaning to begin with.

Did we talk about which word is "accurate"?! What are you on about?! Did the international community refer to Somalia and bunch of other countries as "failed States"?! Yes, did they replaced it with "fragile States" out of political correctness?! Yes, they did. Who tops the current list of fragile States in the world (worst countries)?! Somalia tops the list as per ETH Zurich, fragilestatesindex.org and the world bank. In short, Somalia is the worst country in the world.

So are we going to ignore SNM and SSDF establishing Somaliland and Puntland which are both stable and functioning?

That's off topic. We weren't talking about regional autonomous governments but the recognized government of Somalia which is in shambles. Address the topic or quit mentioning me.

Somalia stopped doing in 1986 as per the agreement made between Barre and Mengistu. However, Ethiopia would continue to support warlords and rebels long after and even during the 90s and 2000s.

Wrong. There was no agreement in 1986, it was just a meeting, the agreement was signed in 1988 and Siad Barre disbanded the WSLF rebel group and threw out the other Ethiopian rebels, Mengistu has done the same as well.
Why did I brought this relevant history in the conversation?! @Idilinaa claimed that foreign intervention led to the collapse of the Somali government, and I responded with hard core facts that both Somalia and Ethiopia armed rebel groups to thwart each other and both of them were successful as both governments were toppled, but the Somali rebels that captured Mogadishu couldn't establish a functioning government and later fought each other to the eventual annihilation of the entire nation.

Blaming everyone but ourselves is avoiding accountability of our actions and failures. I'm ready to say the truth but you people keep blaming others and sugar coating our failures. STOP DOING THAT.

 

[reer]

@Karim somalia might not be a "failed state" in the sense of being like the early 1990s where there was institutional collapse. its more of a "paper state" like afghanistan and ashraf ghani and hamid karzai. yes there is gdp growth and technological improvement. but its government needs foreign troops to stay afloat. but in the end it goes back to being a failed state but with a thin veil.

 

[Zak12]

Did we talk about which word is "accurate"?! What are you on about?!

Why do you care about the word "failed state" when it has no agreed upon definition? The term has been criticized by analysts for a good reason: because its vague and attempts to lump multiple different countries together in a convenient manner. You call it political correctness but the term itself was nonsense to begin with.

In short, Somalia is the worst country in the world.

That isn't what the FSI is measuring. It measuring political stability, not how much "worse" a country. I can tell you right now Somalia isn't the worst since it isn't even in the top 10 poorest countries and sees less violence and conflict compared to many other nations.

That's off topic.

Its not off topic. You brought up how rebels failed to establish a proper government and conveniently ignored the SNM and SSDF which were both Somali rebel groups that fought Siad Barre.

but the Somali rebels that captured Mogadishu couldn't establish a functioning government

And I along with Idilina already explained why that is the case. How on earth can you ignore the Bloody Monday massacre? Or the multiple Ethiopian incursions into south which i why Gedo had Ethiopian troops to begin with? Or the arming of warlords and the CIA involvement ect. All of that prevented state building from happening in the south yet you want to brush it off and pretend it never happened. Ethopia also collapsed yet recovered quickly and you want to know why? Because no country was messing with it during the 90s. Same with northern Somalia.

Blaming everyone but ourselves is avoiding accountability of our actions and failures.

"Blaming everyone"? Okay so by your logic Iraqis, Libyans, Syrians, Yemenis and Afghan should never blame America, Israel, Russia and others for the state of their country since it is apparently all their fault.

 

[gasara]

Why do you care about the word "failed state" when it has no agreed upon definition? The term has been criticized by analysts for a good reason: because its vague and attempts to lump multiple different countries together in a convenient manner. You call it political correctness but the term itself was nonsense to begin with.

That isn't what the FSI is measuring. It measuring political stability, not how much "worse" a country. I can tell you right now Somalia isn't the worst since it isn't even in the top 10 poorest countries and sees less violence and conflict compared to many other nations.

Its not off topic. You brought up how rebels failed to establish a proper government and conveniently ignored the SNM and SSDF which were both Somali rebel groups that fought Siad Barre.


And I along with Idilina already explained why that is the case. How on earth can you ignore the Bloody Monday massacre? Or the multiple Ethiopian incursions into south which i why Gedo had Ethiopian troops to begin with? Or the arming of warlords and the CIA involvement ect. All of that prevented state building from happening in the south yet you want to brush it off and pretend it never happened. Ethopia also collapsed yet recovered quickly and you want to know why? Because no country was messing with it during the 90s. Same with northern Somalia.


"Blaming everyone"? Okay so by your logic Iraqis, Libyans, Syrians, Yemenis and Afghan should never blame America, Israel, Russia and others for the state of their country since it is apparently all their fault.

These people always love to play obtuse saying that Somalis are in this condition solely due to our own failures. Even though foreign nations carved up our lands, take our land, and kill/displace Somalis. How does Somalia even stand to have a chance when you have these people actively funding our very demise. This is why I never debate with these people it’s like they hate themselves and instead reflect all their failures upon Somalia then go and actively deny why Somalia is the way it is.

 

[Karim]

@Zak12
Not sure why you jumped on this back-and-forth conversation btw me and @Idilinaa without fully understanding the endless contradictions in her arguments which was the basis of my initial questions.

• She said: "Nr.1 university in East Africa is SIMAD", and her OWN link of evidence contradicted her assertion. Two other East African Universities rank higher than SIMAD according to her own link. Do you agree with that apparent falsehood?!
• She said: " they aren't doing better than us in the grander scheme of things. They are dirt poor countries with shitty infrastructure , lack of education, health care etc and google Zimbabwe, Egyptian capital." Which is a lie, we aren't doing better than these countries when it comes to education, healthcare and infrastructure, our own people go to these countries for education and healthcare. Do you agree with that falsehood?!
• She said: " Somalia was never a failed as a state to begin with." Which is a lie; this is an excerpt from UN news article with the title of "Former ‘failed State’ Somalia on fragile path to progress: A UN Resident Coordinator blog". Do you agree with that falsehood that Somalia was never called "failed State"?!

You yourself keep embarrassing yourself with more falsehoods while squeezing yourself into this conversation.

• You said: "Somalia isn't the worst since it isn't even in the top 10 poorest countries"... That's false. Somalia IS in the top 10 poorest countries in the world according to both forbes and the world bank, evidence: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/poorest-countries-in-the-world https://www.forbesindia.com/article/explainers/poorest-countries-in-the-world/87529/1
• You said; "Somalia stopped doing in 1986 as per the agreement made between Barre and Mengistu" which was a falsehood as the agreement between Barre and Mengistu was in 1988. Unfiltered wrong information is rife in your arguments.
• You said: "The horrible blunder of the UN peace keeping mission in 1991" which is FALSEHOOD as the UN peace keeping mission was established in 1992. AGAIN, your argument is filled with unfiltered falsehoods.

Both of your arguments is flawed and overflowing with endless contradictions and falsehoods. This is a waste of my precious time.

 

[Idilinaa]

The conversation becomes unproductive if you don't accept the reality, "failed State" was replaced by "fragile State" as it is less offensive. The question you're not addressing is: WHO TOPS THE CURRENT FRAGILE STATES?!! Don't circle around the question and directly answer it.

You can moan about the semantics surrounding ''Failed state'' all day if you want. Abusing the term won't make your arguments for you.

Somalia itself armed rebels to topple the Ethiopian government at that time. The rebels were TPLF, EPLF, OLF, ONLF, and WSLF. This was part of a reciprocal strategy of destabilization between Somalia and Ethiopia that contributed to the forced exile of both Barre and Mengistu in 1991.

Somalia supported liberation movements across the continent. It didn't support insurgencies to wreck country and collapse the government. Plus Somalia's support practically dried up in the early 1980s.

Besides WSLF and EPLF were fighting to secede from Ethiopia, the rest like TPLF were locally based insurgencies who were trying to replace the regime not destabilize it.

It's nothing like the proxies, they were put together and armed by ethiopia, based abroad in Ethiopia, had no popular support in Somalia . They had no plan for any regime change or unity , all they were there for was to sow chaos and were fueled by hatred.

Rebels supported by Somalia established a functioning government that led to growth and sustained development over 3 decades while the Somali rebels couldn't establish a functioning government. The entire blame lies with the USC and SPM, the two allied rebel groups that forced Siad Barre to flee Mogadishu. Eventually they disintegrated, massacred each other and miserably failed to established even a smaller regional government to protect their people.
FYI, SPM weren't defeated by the government. Please do some research before you stubbornly stick with that false statement.

SNM started to fight eachother and kill civilians n mass when they moved into the area following the collapse. Abdullahi Yusuf the leader of SDDF was chased out , after years of fighting with elected Jama and fighting other Somalis in Puntland with Ethiopian troops . Died humiliated in exile.

The political stability of Somaliland and Puntland that was established was the work of the local elders, and civilians , not rebel groups. And largely the result of being left alone.

SPM had zero role in toppling the government and they were not allied with the USC.

You said Nr. 1 in East Africa contradicting YOUR LINK itself that says two other East African universities rank higher than SIMAD. Please, admit you're wrong sometimes and that you made a mistake. It's not that hard subxanallah.

It's Nr.3 in East Africa and but Nr.1 in the Horn of Africa. Thats what i meant.

It's a big achievement because it shows that Somalia's educational system is developing.

If Zimbabwe , Eritrea and Egypt are soo much better , can you point me to where they are on the Top 10 list?

Why do you keep deflecting from the question and keep on using buzzwords like "private sector" "housing projects" etc?! The question was; are we any better than those countries when it comes to healthcare, education and infrastructure?! Don't run to your buzzwords that has nothing to do with the question at hand. I didn't ask you if we're "recovering" or "if progress and change will happen in the next few years" etc.

Why do i point to Housing projects? Private sector? Because its an aspect of development .

Those other African countries you mentioned have millions of people living in open sewage slums and with no economic opportunity. Yet here you are trying to tell us it's better than Somalia. Meesha ka bax walaal. Leave the discussion you've lost it.

In Somalia people have more access to wealth , job opportunities and better housing on average.

 

[Zak12]

Somalia was never a failed as a state to begin with."

Once again, you want to act as if failed state was anything more than a media buzzword. You can't even deny the fact that "failed state" has no agreeable definition too.

Somalia IS in the top 10 poorest countries in the world according to both forbes and the world bank, evidence:

No it isn't.

Poorest Countries in the World 2024

The world’s poorest countries suffer from civil wars, ethnic and sectarian strife. Soaring inflation has made their situations worse.

gfmag.com

which was a falsehood as the agreement between Barre and Mengistu was in 1988.

So? How is me being off by a couple years some sort of gotcha? You are desperately grasping at straws here, my point is that Barre and Mengistu both agreed to stop funding rebels but Ethiopia would continue to fund warlord activity during the 90s.

AGAIN, your argument is filled with unfiltered falsehoods.

Oh no, I got the dates wrong again by one year lol. Doesn't change what happened in 1993.

All you can do is nitpick all my points over trivial things like dates, no real arguments from you.

 

[Karim]

You can moan all about semantics sorounding ''Failed state'' all day if you want. Abusing the term won't make your arguments for you.

Why is it hard to admit you were wrong?! You said "Somalia was never called a failed State" and I have posted literal UN released news article that called Somalia "former failed State" lol and you're out here STILL STUBBORNLY saying it was never called that term. Cajiib.

Somalia supported liberation movements across the continent. It didn't support insurgencies to wreck country and collapse the government. Plus Somalia's support practically dried up in the early 1980s.

Besides WSLF and EPLF were fighting to secede from Ethiopia, the rest like TPLF were locally based insurgencies who trying replace the regime not destabilize it.

At this moment you're blabbering about nonsense and keep repeating the same tirade of falsehoods... Now you're claiming that "Somalia never supported the insurgencies to wreck and collapse the Ethiopian government" kkkk that statement itself is laughable tbh, the basis of creating a rebel group is to topple the opposing government and install a puppet in its place, it's painfully frustrating explaining this to you.

SPM had zero role in toppling the government and they were not allied with the USC.

SPM was created in 1989 and were early allies of the USC in operations against the regime of Siad Barre. A key accomplishment was the seizure of the highly strategic Baledogle Airbase in the days prior to Barre's flight from Mogadishu. SPM fractured into two factions, one led by Omar Jees called SPM/SNA and the other named SPM (Gabio) led by Gabyow. Omar Jees was an ally of Aideed and you can clearly ask this basic info to any person with minimal knowledge about the Somali civil war. Here's an excerpt from a book explaining the SPM:

It's Nr.3 in East Africa and but Nr.1 in the Horn of Africa. Thats what i meant.

FINALLY... SHE ADMITTED SHE WAS WRONG after stubbornly defending that wrong info. I consider that a progress

The political stability of Somaliland and Puntland that was established was the work of the local elders , not rebel groups. And largely the result of being left alone.

So SSDF and SNM had no effect in creating Puntland and Somaliland respectively?! Are YOU NEW TO SOMALI POLITICS?! WALLAHI NOBODY CAN BE THIS NAIVE. It's profoundly erroneous statement that not even a newbie in Somali politics would claim such false assertion. Please, DON'T EMBARASS YOUSELF ANY FURTHER. JUST STOP.

 

[Karim]

Once again, you want to act as if failed state was anything more than a media buzzword. You can't even deny the fact that "failed state" has no agreeable definition too.


No it isn't.

Poorest Countries in the World 2024

The world’s poorest countries suffer from civil wars, ethnic and sectarian strife. Soaring inflation has made their situations worse.

gfmag.com

So? How is me being off by a couple years some sort of gotcha? You are desperately grasping at straws here, my point is that Barre and Mengistu both agreed to stop funding rebels but Ethiopia would continue to fund warlord activity during the 90s.


Oh no, I got the dates wrong again by one year lol. Doesn't change what happened in 1993.

All you can do is nitpick all my points over trivial things like dates, no real arguments from you.

Thank you for ADMITTING YOUR CALCULATION WERE OFF not Once but TWICE

 

[Zak12]

Thank you for ADMITTING YOUR CALCULATION WERE OFF not Once but TWICE

Amuus warya, you ignore all my main points and nitpick because you have no arguments. Only pointless yapping.

 

[Idilinaa]

Why is it hard to admit you were wrong?! You said "Somalia was never called a failed State" and I have posted literal UN released news article that called Somalia "former failed State" lol and you're out here STILL STUBBORNLY saying it was never called that term. Cajiib.

I didn't say Somalia was never called a failed state. I said Somalia didn't fail as a state by its own merit. I stand by that.

At this moment you're blabbering about nonsense and keep repeating the same tirade of falsehoods... Now you're claiming that "Somalia never supported the insurgencies to wreck and collapse the Ethiopian government" kkkk that statement itself is laughable tbh, the basis of creating a rebel group is to topple the opposing government and install a puppet in its place, it's painfully frustrating explaining this to you.

Somalia supported liberation movements, it even supported the Djibouti liberation fighers and help create pathway for them to establish a government.

It also prevented African nations from going to war. So the government of Somalia had zero destabilizing policies unlike Ethiopia.

Ethiopia did more thoug, it even flooded Somalia with Ethiopian refugees to put strains on the governments economy.

SPM was created in 1989 and were early allies of the USC in operations against the regime of Siad Barre. A key accomplishment was the seizure of the highly strategic Baledogle Airbase in the days prior to Barre's flight from Mogadishu. SPM fractured into two factions, one led by Omar Jees called SPM/SNA and the other named SPM (Gabio) led by Gabyow. Omar Jees was an ally of Aideed and you can clearly ask this basic info to any person with minimal knowledge about the Somali civil war. Here's an excerpt from a book explaining the SPM:
View attachment 351855

What a bunch of nonsense. That text you have shown lumps SPM with SNA. So you are saying the Somali National Army was allied with them and with USC who is also lumped up with SNA.

And yes they were not the ones that ousted the government in Mogadishu in 1991 , it was the USC. How these alliances between groups shifted in the aftermath of 1991, During 1993's its entirely a different matter.

FINALLY... SHE ADMITTED SHE WAS WRONG after stubbornly defending that wrong info. I consider that a progress

It's Nr.1 University in the region , it's not wrong. So tell me where is Zimbabwe, Eritrea and Egypt on that list?

So SSDF and SNM had no effect in creating Puntland and Somaliland respectively?! Are YOU NEW TO SOMALI POLITICS?! WALLAHI NOBODY CAN BE THIS NAIVE. It's profoundly erroneous statement that not even a newbie in Somali politics would claim such false assertion. Please, DON'T EMBARASS YOUSELF ANY FURTHER. JUST STOP.

They had no large role in creating the political stability and peace. All they did was wreak havoc and have the clan elders try to resolve it and create reconciliation. The local elders are the peace brokers.

Somaliland and Puntland are just ethiopian projects if we are going to be honest about it.