Somali connection to Madagascar?

[anonimo]

I have never gone too indepth in T-M70 so kudos for educating me on your subclades.More of your folks need to do some deep Y-DNA testing lol.


Now if T-M70 are recent (after the Cushite expansions from the Red Sea hills) why haven't they left a genetic footprint on Cushites? Since majority of Cushites are still mainly Neolithic Levantine on our Eurasian except the Ethiopian highlanders who received Semitic admixture (3k years ago) and therefore small amounts of Bronze age Iranian blood/J1-P58 (Iran_CHL)

I am not arguing that T-M70 wasn't present in the Red Sea Hills when the Cushitic expansion into the Horn began. My argument is that Y16897 might not necessarily have been part of that migration considering how young it is estimated to be. The TMRCA of Y16897 individuals could also change as more Yfull tests become available; it is not set in stone. However, as things stand, it appears to be younger than the hypothesised Proto-Cushite expansion dates. We need to explore the subclades of T haplogroup Cushites, including Somalis, and compare it with those found among other populations to obtain a clearer picture. Haplogroup T did not arrive in Africa in one migratory event.

Y16897 is Neolithic but who is to know how its descendant subclades dispersed without further research? It might be found in Bronze Age settlements in the Levant or Southern Arabia. Even if it is found in Bronze Age settlements, we still need to explore which of its subclades were formed around that time. For instance, the formation date of J-P58 is calculated to be older than the Bronze Age but some its subclades can be dated to the Bronze Age.

In my previous post, I should have placed more emphasis on Yfull tests than the FTDNA predicted subclades. Apologies. For confirmed SNP's, explore the Haplogroup T Yfull test results. You will observe that most Africans do not belong to Y16897. They mainly belong belong to subclades downstream of CTS2214. We definitely need HG-T Cushites to do the Yfull test.

 

[Grant]

Some of those are racists who think Somalis are incapable of establishing sophisticated civilisations. And the rest are selfhating Somalis who think our history is 30 years old. They most likely got bullied in school because of being Somali.

There is a camp that says Somalis are all the same: same language, same genetics. Until DNA told the tale, a good many clans even claimed to be banu Hashim. The saddest part of all this is that the early histories incorporated this tradition, which has turned out to be false. If Darood and Isaac existed at all, they did not pass down an Arabic bloodline. It has clearly come as a shock to some that that was never the case.

The One-Somalia argument continues to exist in order to keep the four dominant clans in power and the Minorites out of power, disenfranshised, and off any productive land. It argues the southern languages are dialects of a single language from the north. It argues there were never any Khoisan or Negroid Saharans in Somalia and that the Harla, Eyle, Ibro, Gabooye, etc. were just early Somalis. It argues that all the Madow were just slaves, who ought to go back where they came from. It ignores the Bajunis, Barwannis and Cad-Cads and sees no distinction between "T" and "E". It's an ignorant and sick argument designed to prevent a one-person, one vote election.

I understand Somali (Samaale) supremacism. It's a legitimate political position, just not a great historical one. Minorities (non-Samaale Somalis) are becoming educated and beginning to tell their own sides of the story, so it's not just DNA correcting the tales. There is no good reason to get huffy or claim bullying for this, unless that is your only defense for the one-Somalia argument.

 

[Grant]

The Suldaan was from Berbera..and the main inhabitants of Berbera have always been Habar Awal.

Berbera was a coastal city with a major trade fair and a history of foreign trade and settlement. In the 1330's, the northern clans would just have formed, probably with few educational opportunities for camel nomads. According to Ibn Batuta, the Suldan wrote his answers to legal questions on the back of court documents, which seems strange for a Somali at that time, to say the least. The main inhabitants of Egypt have always been Egyptians. That doesn't mean Yusuf or the 25th dynasty were, or that a Habar Awal man from the north would have been accepted as Suldan of Mogadishu. Your logic escapes me except as a matter of qabyalad.

 

[Lord Flacko]

LOL @ at this crackpot theory.Firstly Horners don't have any Khoisan autosomal admixture....care to explain why that is? or would you care to explain that all Cushites/Nilotes carry a different branch of A than Khoisans? The Beja who stayed in the Cushite homeland also have like 20% A-M13

Khoisans = A1b1b2a-M51
Cushite/Nilotes = A1b1b2b-M13

The later has been found in Neolithic sites in Sudan/Egypt...you know the homeland of the Cushites lol.As for Khoisan carrying Eurasian blood they obviously got it from Southern Cushites just like how the Masaai,Kikuyu,Sandawe and many other SE African populations.

The last point I want to make is that you cannot use current Y-DNA distribution and assume it was exactly the same 5k or 10k years ago.

Cmon I explained it as easy as it can be explained.

LOL @ at this crackpot theory.Firstly Horners don't have any Khoisan autosomal admixture....care to explain why that is?

They do. The Khoisan used to live in Eastern Africa until 2000 years ago. Scientists believe they got Eurasian admixture about 3000 years ago which is about the time Somalis split off from other Cushitic groups such as the Amharas f.ex.

See the Proto Cushites wander down into the Horn/East Africa. They encounter local Nilotics and Khoisans. They split off into different branches and the Somali wander into the Somali Peninsula where there are no big or any native population which is why they never receive any admixture. The other Cushites receive among other Khoisan admixture. The southernmost Cushites go extinct leaving DNA traces.

The Khoisan in return receive the Eurasian admixture before then going down the Eastern Coast into Southern Africa.

Abstract
The history of southern Africa involved interactions between indigenous hunter–gatherers and a range of populations that moved into the region. Here we use genome-wide genetic data to show that there are at least two admixture events in the history of Khoisan populations (southern African hunter–gatherers and pastoralists who speak non-Bantu languages with click consonants). One involved populations related to Niger–Congo-speaking African populations, and the other introduced ancestry most closely related to west Eurasian (European or Middle Eastern) populations. We date this latter admixture event to ∼900–1,800 y ago and show that it had the largest demographic impact in Khoisan populations that speak Khoe–Kwadi languages. A similar signal of west Eurasian ancestry is present throughout eastern Africa. In particular, we also find evidence for two admixture events in the history of Kenyan, Tanzanian, and Ethiopian populations, the earlier of which involved populations related to west Eurasians and which we date to ∼2,700–3,300 y ago. We reconstruct the allele frequencies of the putative west Eurasian population in eastern Africa and show that this population is a good proxy for the west Eurasian ancestry in southern Africa. The most parsimonious explanation for these findings is that west Eurasian ancestry entered southern Africa indirectly through eastern Africa

Do I need to overlay these two maps or is it apparent enough?

https://www.google.no/amp/s/phys.org/news/2014-02-western-eurasian-genes-southern-african.amp

"crackpot theory" Huh? Everything I state I can and have backed up with evidence and scholarly opinions and theories. I have no horse in this race so if you can provide even more compelling evidence and theories other than the ones I've laid out I will change my own accordingly.

The Beja who stayed in the Cushite homeland also have like 20% A-M13

It's at most 4.8%. You're off by a factor of over 5,

Khoisans = A1b1b2a-M51
Cushite/Nilotes = A1b1b2b-M13

And both of these are really new haplogroups, of whom both directly descend from A3b. Of course there will be mutations considering the Khoisan and other Cushites shared a gene pool about 2000 something years ago, that's how there are different haplogroups in the first place.

The last point I want to make is that you cannot use current Y-DNA distribution and assume it was exactly the same 5k or 10k years ago.

When have I? My whole arguement is fundamentally about the fact that distribution changes over time, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

 

[Lord Flacko]

As Anonimo said, the Madagaskan subclade is from the Levant.

Yung Mali has dealt with the Khoisan issues, but I will add this: A percentage of the Khoikhoi, who brought Levantine sheep through Tanzania to South Africa, have shifted to haplotype E. The northern terminus of this migration has yet to be determined, but the oldest known DNA chain from the Horn (4500 BP) tested out intermediate to the Negroid Ari, who are from the Sahara, and the Khoisan Sandawe. The findings of this study were later shown to apply only to East African populations, but are still solid for the Horn. Mota Man was E1b1 with L3 mtdna.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-5577.html

Ibn Batuta was a lawyer who took note of court issues. He says that the Qadi was an Egyptian.. (!!) For court proceedings, a meal was served.

"After this the Shaikh retires to his private apartments, and the Qadi, the wazirs, the private secretary and four of the chief amirs sit
to hear causes and complaints. Questions of religious law are decided by the Qadi: other cases are judged by the council, that is,
the wazirs and amirs. If a case requires the views of the Sultan, it is put in writing for him. He sends back an immediate reply, written
on the back of the paper, as his discretion may decide. This has always been the custom among these people."

Seriously....

1. Nope
2. Just disproved that
3. Cool Battuta, an Arab on travel to Mogadishu met another Arab who had travelled there to be one qadi.

Pretty much all scholars and historians agree that the ruling population were native Somalis. Ibn Battuta himself said the ruling Sultan was a dark skinned man of the Berber race who spoke the native language of Mogadishan which is Somali. Yet you ignore this part, and every other of his travels but then you wave the fact that he met an Egyptian qadi like it's your winning proof in this argument? Grow up old man, your stubbornness and ignorance is impossible to reason with.

 

[Lord Flacko]

There is a camp that says Somalis are all the same: same language, same genetics. Until DNA told the tale, a good many clans even claimed to be banu Hashim. The saddest part of all this is that the early histories incorporated this tradition, which has turned out to be false. If Darood and Isaac existed at all, they did not pass down an Arabic bloodline. It has clearly come as a shock to some that that was never the case.

The One-Somalia argument continues to exist in order to keep the four dominant clans in power and the Minorites out of power, disenfranshised, and off any productive land. It argues the southern languages are dialects of a single language from the north. It argues there were never any Khoisan or Negroid Saharans in Somalia and that the Harla, Eyle, Ibro, Gabooye, etc. were just early Somalis. It argues that all the Madow were just slaves, who ought to go back where they came from. It ignores the Bajunis, Barwannis and Cad-Cads and sees no distinction between "T" and "E". It's an ignorant and sick argument designed to prevent a one-person, one vote election.

I understand Somali (Samaale) supremacism. It's a legitimate political position, just not a great historical one. Minorities (non-Samaale Somalis) are becoming educated and beginning to tell their own sides of the story, so it's not just DNA correcting the tales. There is no good reason to get huffy or claim bullying for this, unless that is your only defense for the one-Somalia argument.

Norwegians speak many wildly different dialects that can actually be difficult to comprehend when talking to each other.

Norway has two different written scripts, both of which use the same alphabet.

Norwegians carry I, R and New haplogroups in large amounts, and have many different smaller ones.


You act as if you gotta be an inbred hillbilly who speak the exact same dialect and write using the exact same script to be considered Somali. What the hell? Both Norway and Somalia are to very large and long countries who have a spread out population which will always lead to variety. Yet when people talk about Norwegians they are considered wildly homogeneous, and so are the Somalis. Just because a Rahanweyn from far south and an Isaaq from way up north speak a different dialect and have different scripts doesn't make them different to be a different people, and they are not.
Shit the Norwegian language is much much more standardized than the Somali yet it's still diverse as f*ck, and all students have to learn the two scripts, Bokmål/Book-issue aka "standard" and the Nynorsk aka the one predominantly used by village people and those who live further out. Short said, languages are diverse, especially when it's the language of a rural people who live over a great distance. Because I can again assure you that the Norwegian language is wildly diverse, yet if anybody tried to divide Norwegians into different groups based on arbitrary reasons, and especially if that guy was a random outsider, you'd be ridiculed.
Tbh the Somali language should be much more diverse than it already is considering the lack of long time standardization.



When it comes to Haplogroups again, the Norwegians have way more different haplogroups than Somalis. Actually every population have different haplogroups, if not then they'd be inbred retards. So the fact that you're bickering over "E and T" is stupid.


Next time stay bothering Canadians or wherever it is you're from, because I find it insulting that you're coming here with an unrelenting "I'm smarter than you all" complex, and especially this comment in particular.

 

[TheSayid]

There is a camp that says Somalis are all the same: same language, same genetics. Until DNA told the tale, a good many clans even claimed to be banu Hashim. The saddest part of all this is that the early histories incorporated this tradition, which has turned out to be false. If Darood and Isaac existed at all, they did not pass down an Arabic bloodline. It has clearly come as a shock to some that that was never the case.

The One-Somalia argument continues to exist in order to keep the four dominant clans in power and the Minorites out of power, disenfranshised, and off any productive land. It argues the southern languages are dialects of a single language from the north. It argues there were never any Khoisan or Negroid Saharans in Somalia and that the Harla, Eyle, Ibro, Gabooye, etc. were just early Somalis. It argues that all the Madow were just slaves, who ought to go back where they came from. It ignores the Bajunis, Barwannis and Cad-Cads and sees no distinction between "T" and "E". It's an ignorant and sick argument designed to prevent a one-person, one vote election.

I understand Somali (Samaale) supremacism. It's a legitimate political position, just not a great historical one. Minorities (non-Samaale Somalis) are becoming educated and beginning to tell their own sides of the story, so it's not just DNA correcting the tales. There is no good reason to get huffy or claim bullying for this, unless that is your only defense for the one-Somalia argument.

tbh i never heard any non-ethnic somali make any of the claims you do, im not saying you're wrong. but not even prof eno does it, he claims there was a indigenous pre-cushtic bantu tribe in somalia, while you say they weren't bantu but a seperate negroid ethnicity. can you list some?

 

[Grant]

tbh i never heard any non-ethnic somali make any of the claims you do, im not saying you're wrong. but not even prof eno does it, he claims there was a indigenous pre-cushtic bantu tribe in somalia, while you say they weren't bantu but a seperate negroid ethnicity. can you list some?

Bantu is a linguistic determination that does not imply a particular ethnicity. The Bantu-related languages and culture spread in what is called "The Bantu Expansion", which reached parts of Uganda and Kenya, but reached the most southern coastal part of Somalia only in it's Swahili form. The pre-Cushitic tribes were not Bantu and probably not all of the same ethnicity. The Madow groups that I know of that were not Bantu include the Gabaweyn, the Shabelli, the Makanne and the Shidle. The Eyle and other af Helledi speakers among the Reewin probably have a different pre-Cushitic origin.

It is a sad, sad thing that the pre-Cushitic non-Bantu have become confused with the genuinely Bantu Gosha and Mushunguli, who are post-Cushitic and present only after about 1825. The non-Samaale groups, as of 1977, are in pink on this map. The actual Bantu are concentrated on the lower reaches of the Jubba. The other Madow groups are probably related to the Ari of Ethiopia and have no connection to the Bantu.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/somalia/images/map-somalia-clans-1977.jpg

 

[Yung Mali]

Cmon I explained it as easy as it can be explained.




They do. The Khoisan used to live in Eastern Africa until 2000 years ago. Scientists believe they got Eurasian admixture about 3000 years ago which is about the time Somalis split off from other Cushitic groups such as the Amharas f.ex.

See the Proto Cushites wander down into the Horn/East Africa. They encounter local Nilotics and Khoisans. They split off into different branches and the Somali wander into the Somali Peninsula where there are no big or any native population which is why they never receive any admixture.

Proto-Cushites already had Nilotic-like admixture when they were in Egypt/Sudanese coast

The native population that cushites ecountered were in fact Omotics who are similiar to the 4500 year old Mota man.But what do i expect from a moron that loves cooking up ridicilous theories.Also Somalis broke off from Lowland East Cushites only 2-3k years ago.You clearly got your timeline all fucked up.This was the same time the South Cushites left the Horn and settled in SE Africa where there descendants like Iraqw and Masaai (70% S.Cushite ancestry) still exist till today.

The Khoisan in return receive the Eurasian admixture before then going down the Eastern Coast into Southern Africa.

More crackpot bs

https://www.google.no/amp/s/phys.org/news/2014-02-western-eurasian-genes-southern-african.amp

"crackpot theory" Huh? Everything I state I can and have backed up with evidence and scholarly opinions and theories. I have no horse in this race so if you can provide even more compelling evidence and theories other than the ones I've laid out I will change my own accordingly.

It is a crackpot theory since there is no proof Khoisan ever lived in the Horn and neither do any Horners have any Khoisan admixture.Also you are using maps from a debunked study and another crackpot racialist site

And both of these are really new haplogroups, of whom both directly descend from A3b. Of course there will be mutations considering the Khoisan and other Cushites shared a gene pool about 2000 something years ago, that's how there are different haplogroups in the first place.

You definitely have no clue what you are talking about and you had the nerve to call me a nob.The irony


Keep cooking up your crackpot theories warya.

 

[Lord Flacko]

Proto-Cushites already had Nilotic-like admixture when they were in Egypt/Sudanese coast

The native population that cushites ecountered were in fact Omotics who are similiar to the 4500 year old Mota man.But what do i expect from a moron that loves cooking up ridicilous theories.Also Somalis broke off from Lowland East Cushites only 2-3k years ago.You clearly got your timeline all fucked up.This was the same time the South Cushites left the Horn and settled in SE Africa where there descendants like Iraqw and Masaai (70% S.Cushite ancestry) still exist till today.


More crackpot bs


It is a crackpot theory since there is no proof Khoisan ever lived in the Horn and neither do any Horners have any Khoisan admixture.Also you are using maps from a debunked study and another crackpot racialist site


You definitely have no clue what you are talking about and you had the nerve to call me a nob.The irony


Keep cooking up your crackpot theories warya.

Go ahead and argue with actual scientists doqonyahow
Researchers find signs of western Eurasian genes in southern African Khoisan tribes
February 4, 2014 • by Bob Yirka

33-year-old San tribesman from Namibia. Image: Wikipedia.


(Phys.org) —A team of researchers with representatives from the U.S., Germany and France has found evidence of western Eurasian genes in Khoisan tribes living in southern Africa. This suggests, the researchers conclude in a paper they've had published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, that a migration from the Middle East back to Africa occurred approximately 3000 years ago.


Scientists believe humans evolved from ancestral primates in Africa several hundred thousand years ago, but it wasn't until approximately 65,000 years ago that they made their way out of Africa and into the Middle East and eventually the rest of the world. Until recently, that migration has been viewed by most scientists as a one-way trip. Gene studies over the past several years has turned that thinking around, however, as its been found that many people in several parts of Africa have European or Asian gene segments in their DNA. In this latest study, the researchers have found evidence of Eurasian genes in tribespeople who were thought to have a purely African ancestry.

The Khoisan tribespeople of today still live much as their ancestors did—they are hunter-gathers who are also pastoralists—they are most familiar to westerners as the people who speak with distinctive clicking noises. Until now, they were believed to have the purest African gene pool due to their thousands of years of isolationist practices.

The team acquired DNA samples from 32 people living in Khoisan tribes in southern Africa—an analysis revealed Eurasian gene segments in all of them. But that wasn't the end of the story. To understand how the gene fragments got into the Khoisan tribespeople, the researchers turned to archeological and linguistic evidence to build a possible time-line of events. In so doing, they've found what they believe to have been a migration back into Africa by people of the Middle East (ancestors of the people that migrated to Europe and Asia) approximately 3000 years ago. Those people made their way to various parts of the continent, including a part of eastern Africa from which the Khoisan tribespeople had migrated south approximately 900 and 1800 years ago.

The researchers found something else—the Khoisan tribespeople also had snippets of Neanderthal DNA in their genes as well—courtesy of their Eurasian heritage.


More information: Ancient west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa, Joseph K. Pickrell, PNAS, DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1313787111

Abstract
The history of southern Africa involved interactions between indigenous hunter–gatherers and a range of populations that moved into the region. Here we use genome-wide genetic data to show that there are at least two admixture events in the history of Khoisan populations (southern African hunter–gatherers and pastoralists who speak non-Bantu languages with click consonants). One involved populations related to Niger–Congo-speaking African populations, and the other introduced ancestry most closely related to west Eurasian (European or Middle Eastern) populations. We date this latter admixture event to ∼900–1,800 y ago and show that it had the largest demographic impact in Khoisan populations that speak Khoe–Kwadi languages. A similar signal of west Eurasian ancestry is present throughout eastern Africa. In particular, we also find evidence for two admixture events in the history of Kenyan, Tanzanian, and Ethiopian populations, the earlier of which involved populations related to west Eurasians and which we date to ∼2,700–3,300 y ago. We reconstruct the allele frequencies of the putative west Eurasian population in eastern Africa and show that this population is a good proxy for the west Eurasian ancestry in southern Africa. The most parsimonious explanation for these findings is that west Eurasian ancestry entered southern Africa indirectly through eastern Africa.


I gave you the link aswell as the relevant part. Can you not read?

That result confirms a 2012 study by Luca Pagani of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute in Hinxton, UK, which found non-African genes in people living in Ethiopia. Both the 2012 study and this week’s new results show that the Eurasian genes made their way into east African genomes around 3000 years ago. About a millennium later, the ancestors of the Khoe-Kwadi headed south, carrying a weaker signal of the Eurasian DNA into southern Africa.

Huh, a weaker signal of Eurasian DNA being carried from Ethiopia into Southern Africa? Where have I seen this before?

Bruh do I have to hammer this into your head?

It is a crackpot theory since there is no proof Khoisan ever lived in the Horn and neither do any Horners have any Khoisan admixture.Also you are using maps from a debunked study and another crackpot racialist site

You really do lack a memory don't you? You said this just now

Khoisans = A1b1b2a-M51
Cushite/Nilotes = A1b1b2b-M13

And if your dumbass remembers anything then you'd know that both those lineages are new and are DIRECT descendants from A3b, a Khoisan lineage. Now that means they have Khoisan admixture, and that all of these people shared a gene pool very, very recently. So either the Khoisan were in East Africa or the fucking Nilotics and Cushites were in Southern Africa. Now we both know what's true but just like how a parent let's the kid try to see which hole the square fits into, Imma let you try to figure it out.




Please, please, can anybody who actually wants to have a normal discussion enter this thread. I'm getting tired of dealing with the same shit.

 

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

It argues the southern languages are dialects of a single language from the north. It argues there were never any Khoisan or Negroid Saharans in Somalia and that the Harla, Eyle, Ibro, Gabooye, etc. were just early Somalis. It argues that all the Madow were just slaves, who ought to go back where they came from. It's an ignorant and sick argument designed to prevent a one-person, one vote election.

I understand Somali (Samaale) supremacism. It's a legitimate political position, just not a great historical one. Minorities (non-Samaale Somalis) are becoming educated and beginning to tell their own sides of the story, so it's not just DNA correcting the tales. There is no good reason to get huffy or claim bullying for this, unless that is your only defense for the one-Somalia argument.

Berbera was a coastal city with a major trade fair and a history of foreign trade and settlement. In the 1330's, the northern clans would just have formed, probably with few educational opportunities for camel nomads. According to Ibn Batuta, the Suldan wrote his answers to legal questions on the back of court documents, which seems strange for a Somali at that time, to say the least. The main inhabitants of Egypt have always been Egyptians. That doesn't mean Yusuf or the 25th dynasty were, or that a Habar Awal man from the north would have been accepted as Suldan of Mogadishu. Your logic escapes me except as a matter of qabyalad.

Grant , any proof of Foreign settlements in Berbera ?

 

[Grant]

Grant , any proof of Foreign settlements in Berbera ?

There's no dates to this, but it's clearly ancient and nothing like anything else on the Somali coast. This article talks about the Banyan and Arab merchants concerned with the trade at the later annual fairs, a fort and an aqueduct leading to a mosque, nine miles away. And lots of broken glass about the fort. There were lots of Arabs and Indians to whom the Isaaq and caravans from Harar and the Hawd would come to trade, and who might need a fort to protect their goods and an aqueduct to provide water to their trading partners. It sounds like Berbera was quite cosmopolitan six months out of the year, hosting thousands of people. I doubt the Isaaq had need of a fort to protect themselves from foreigners, so yes, foreign settlement.

https://www.revolvy.com/topic/Berbera&item_type=topic


Middle ages
Duan Chengshi, a Chinese Tang Dynasty scholar, described in his written work of AD 863 the slave trade, ivory trade, and ambergris trade of Bobali, which is thought to be Berbera. The city was also later mentioned by the Islamic traveller Ibn Sa'id as well as Ibn Batutta in the thirteenth century.[6]

However, as I.M. Lewis notes, "beyond the fact that during the period of Portuguese domination in the Red Sea the town was sacked in 1518 by Antonio de Saldanha, little of its history is known before the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries."[7] . It also made Zeila the regional capital due to the latter's strategic location on the Red Sea.

City skyline (view in Full HD)
One certainty about Berbera over the following centuries was that it was the site of an annual fair, held between October and April, which Mordechai Abir describes as "among the most important commercial events of the east coast of Africa."[8] The major Somali clan of Isaaq in Somalia, caravans from Harar and the Hawd, and Banyan merchants from Porbandar, Mangalore and Mumbai gathered to trade. All of this was kept secret from European merchants, writes Abir: "Banyan and Arab merchants who were concerned with the trade of this fair closely guarded all information which might have helped new competitors; and actually through the machinations of such merchants Europeans were not allowed to take part in the fair at all."[9] Lieutenant C. J. Cruttenden, who wrote a memoir describing this portion of the Somali coast dated 12 May 1848, provided an account of the Berbera fair and an account of the only visible traces of man at the site: "an aqueduct of stone and chunam, some nine miles [15 km] in length", which had once emptied into a presently dry reservoir adjacent to the ruins of a mosque. He explored part of its course from the reservoir past a number of tombs built of stones taken from the aqueduct to reach a spring, above which lay "the remains of a small fort or tower of chunam and stone ... on the hill-side immediately over the spring." Cruttenden noted that in "style it was different to any houses now found on the Somali coast," and concluded with noting the presence in "the neighbourhood of the fort above mentioned [an] abundance of broken glass and pottery ... from which I infer that it was a place of considerable antiquity; but, though diligent search was made, no traces of inscriptions could be discovered."[

 

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

There's no dates to this, but it's clearly ancient and nothing like anything else on the Somali coast. This article talks about the Banyan and Arab merchants concerned with the trade at the later annual fairs, a fort and an aqueduct leading to a mosque, nine miles away. And lots of broken glass about the fort. There were lots of Arabs and Indians to whom the Isaaq and caravans from Harar and the Hawd would come to trade, and who might need a fort to protect their goods and an aqueduct to provide water to their trading partners. It sounds like Berbera was quite cosmopolitan six months out of the year, hosting thousands of people. I doubt the Isaaq had need of a fort to protect themselves from foreigners, so yes, foreign settlement.

https://www.revolvy.com/topic/Berbera&item_type=topic


Middle ages
Duan Chengshi, a Chinese Tang Dynasty scholar, described in his written work of AD 863 the slave trade, ivory trade, and ambergris trade of Bobali, which is thought to be Berbera. The city was also later mentioned by the Islamic traveller Ibn Sa'id as well as Ibn Batutta in the thirteenth century.[6]

However, as I.M. Lewis notes, "beyond the fact that during the period of Portuguese domination in the Red Sea the town was sacked in 1518 by Antonio de Saldanha, little of its history is known before the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries."[7] . It also made Zeila the regional capital due to the latter's strategic location on the Red Sea.

City skyline (view in Full HD)
One certainty about Berbera over the following centuries was that it was the site of an annual fair, held between October and April, which Mordechai Abir describes as "among the most important commercial events of the east coast of Africa."[8] The major Somali clan of Isaaq in Somalia, caravans from Harar and the Hawd, and Banyan merchants from Porbandar, Mangalore and Mumbai gathered to trade. All of this was kept secret from European merchants, writes Abir: "Banyan and Arab merchants who were concerned with the trade of this fair closely guarded all information which might have helped new competitors; and actually through the machinations of such merchants Europeans were not allowed to take part in the fair at all."[9] Lieutenant C. J. Cruttenden, who wrote a memoir describing this portion of the Somali coast dated 12 May 1848, provided an account of the Berbera fair and an account of the only visible traces of man at the site: "an aqueduct of stone and chunam, some nine miles [15 km] in length", which had once emptied into a presently dry reservoir adjacent to the ruins of a mosque. He explored part of its course from the reservoir past a number of tombs built of stones taken from the aqueduct to reach a spring, above which lay "the remains of a small fort or tower of chunam and stone ... on the hill-side immediately over the spring." Cruttenden noted that in "style it was different to any houses now found on the Somali coast," and concluded with noting the presence in "the neighbourhood of the fort above mentioned [an] abundance of broken glass and pottery ... from which I infer that it was a place of considerable antiquity; but, though diligent search was made, no traces of inscriptions could be discovered."[

You really are full of shit!

 

[Grant]

You really are full of shit!

OK. But it's all over your face.

I didn't post this earlier because I know you think Sada Mire is also full of it. Nevertheless, she, and not you or I, did the work and is the expert. What I gave you earlier is physical proof specific to Berbera. Here is academic analysis:

Sada Mire on the Somaliland coast:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9184-9

"This report is an archaeological testimony to the social complexity and cultural diversity of this region as a cultural crossroads for millennia, being strategically located on the Red Sea and Indian Ocean. However, the maps by no means exhaust the number of archaeological sites known to us in Somaliland. The region had vast Cushitic, pre-Christian and pre-Islamic Empires that at times formed part of the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures of Southern Arabia, the Aksumite Empire and early Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa. The coastal populations were active seafarers according to Greek records as well as archaeological remains, linking to the Phoenician and Graeco-Roman worlds. They also formed part of an early global economy including the Silk Road. Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa show an enormous wealth of long-distance trade—including material from Tang Dynasty to Ming Dynasty China—and the magnitude of some of their capitals such as the ruined town and burials of Aw-Barkhadle."


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9184-9#Sec8

"There is an extensive and ancient relationship between the people and cultures of both sides of the Red Sea coast (Phillipson 1998). Rock art sites such as Dhagah Nabi Gallay and Dhagah Kureh include Sabaean and Himyarite writings associated with South Arabia (see Map 3). In certain contexts, they appear to have been added to the rock art later, suggesting by superimposition. In 2007, more rock art sites with Sabaean and Himyarite writings in and around Hargeysa region were found, but sadly some were bulldozed by developers, as the Ministry of Tourism could not buy the land or stop the destruction. I have also recorded a burial site with such writings in Shalcaw (39), on the Red Sea coast (see Fig. 4). Furthermore, the Qar-Gebi megalithic burials include what might be ancient writings, perhaps Himyarite and Sabaean, but it needs to be confirmed. The Pre-Aksumite cultures of current-day Ethiopia are linked with South Arabian kingdoms. The Pre-Aksumite Empire itself might have been part of, or at least culturally linked with, contemporary kingdoms in what is now the Somali-populated region. Not only are there links through the findings of Himyarite and Sabaean writings, but also early Christianity seems to have spread throughout the Horn, including the Somali region, as explored below. However, the burial site of Shal’aw is associated with other ancient burials in the immediate wadis in this sandy coastal landscape. The “wadi burials” are part of an ancient landscape that has been washed away by the floods and now exposed vertically, showing clear stratigraphic levels. If these burials can be rescued in time, there is a potential that we learn more about first-millennium BCE cultures of this little known Red Sea region, and associations with the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures, as well as perhaps ancient Egypt and the trade in frankincense and myrrh, still a big part of the economy in this area."

I know you think James Dahl is also just another full-of-shit White man, but his work also connects to academic studies. I think you should take another look at his maps, especially the sequence of them. Berbera was Malao. Do some research of your own.. Just saying his is Suugo Science doesn't make it so.:

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/how-accurate-are-these-maps.22166/

 

[Grant]

OK. But it's all over your face.

I didn't post this earlier because I know you think Sada Mire is also full of it. Nevertheless, she, and not you or I, did the work and is the expert. What I gave you earlier is physical proof specific to Berbera. Here is academic analysis:

Sada Mire on the Somaliland coast:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9184-9

"This report is an archaeological testimony to the social complexity and cultural diversity of this region as a cultural crossroads for millennia, being strategically located on the Red Sea and Indian Ocean. However, the maps by no means exhaust the number of archaeological sites known to us in Somaliland. The region had vast Cushitic, pre-Christian and pre-Islamic Empires that at times formed part of the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures of Southern Arabia, the Aksumite Empire and early Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa. The coastal populations were active seafarers according to Greek records as well as archaeological remains, linking to the Phoenician and Graeco-Roman worlds. They also formed part of an early global economy including the Silk Road. Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa show an enormous wealth of long-distance trade—including material from Tang Dynasty to Ming Dynasty China—and the magnitude of some of their capitals such as the ruined town and burials of Aw-Barkhadle."


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9184-9#Sec8

"There is an extensive and ancient relationship between the people and cultures of both sides of the Red Sea coast (Phillipson 1998). Rock art sites such as Dhagah Nabi Gallay and Dhagah Kureh include Sabaean and Himyarite writings associated with South Arabia (see Map 3). In certain contexts, they appear to have been added to the rock art later, suggesting by superimposition. In 2007, more rock art sites with Sabaean and Himyarite writings in and around Hargeysa region were found, but sadly some were bulldozed by developers, as the Ministry of Tourism could not buy the land or stop the destruction. I have also recorded a burial site with such writings in Shalcaw (39), on the Red Sea coast (see Fig. 4). Furthermore, the Qar-Gebi megalithic burials include what might be ancient writings, perhaps Himyarite and Sabaean, but it needs to be confirmed. The Pre-Aksumite cultures of current-day Ethiopia are linked with South Arabian kingdoms. The Pre-Aksumite Empire itself might have been part of, or at least culturally linked with, contemporary kingdoms in what is now the Somali-populated region. Not only are there links through the findings of Himyarite and Sabaean writings, but also early Christianity seems to have spread throughout the Horn, including the Somali region, as explored below. However, the burial site of Shal’aw is associated with other ancient burials in the immediate wadis in this sandy coastal landscape. The “wadi burials” are part of an ancient landscape that has been washed away by the floods and now exposed vertically, showing clear stratigraphic levels. If these burials can be rescued in time, there is a potential that we learn more about first-millennium BCE cultures of this little known Red Sea region, and associations with the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures, as well as perhaps ancient Egypt and the trade in frankincense and myrrh, still a big part of the economy in this area."

I know you think James Dahl is also just another full-of-shit White man, but his work also connects to academic studies. I think you should take another look at his maps, especially the sequence of them. Berbera was Malao. Do some research of your own.. Just saying his is Suugo Science doesn't make it so.:

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/how-accurate-are-these-maps.22166/

sid=b6196bdf3b5d0970837c99b3b4a59768

https://www.somnet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=154129&sid=b6196bdf3b5d0970837c99b3b4a59768

You should also find this thread of interest. More maps, and Gurey25 estimates the total Isaac population in 1300 AD at 1000. The date for Ibn Batuta is 1331, so a Habar Awal Suldan in Mog seems additionally unlikely.

https://www.somnet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=154129&sid=b6196bdf3b5d0970837c99b3b4a59768

 

[Lord Flacko]

OK. But it's all over your face.

I didn't post this earlier because I know you think Sada Mire is also full of it. Nevertheless, she, and not you or I, did the work and is the expert. What I gave you earlier is physical proof specific to Berbera. Here is academic analysis:

Sada Mire on the Somaliland coast:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9184-9

"This report is an archaeological testimony to the social complexity and cultural diversity of this region as a cultural crossroads for millennia, being strategically located on the Red Sea and Indian Ocean. However, the maps by no means exhaust the number of archaeological sites known to us in Somaliland. The region had vast Cushitic, pre-Christian and pre-Islamic Empires that at times formed part of the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures of Southern Arabia, the Aksumite Empire and early Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa.

Oh yes, the foreign settlement of Berbera by the Cushites, how could we forget about that @MARAQ DIGAAG





If you read the whole study, which I did, Sara Mire and her team argue that the Horn and it's contemporary kingdoms were linked with Southern Arabian culture, most likely through trade, just like it was with Egyptian culture. This is nothing new, and especially northern Somalia has always been linked with Yemen up until recently. Aden itself was described as "majority Arab and Somali" in the 1800s.

What Sada Mire and her team did not state was that there was definitely (or perhaps or might or maybe, you never reallymade it clear) foreign settlement, which was your point.

And again, these old connections are no surprise, considering several historians and scholars believe that South Arabia used to be inhabited by Cushitic speaking peoples who were later absorbed by their Semitic neighbours to the north.

Additionally, Militarev identified a Cushiticsubstratum in Modern South Arabian, which he proposes is evidence that Cushitic speakers originally inhabited the Arabian Peninsulaalongside Semitic speakers (Militarev 1984, 18-19; cf. also Belova 2003). According to Václav Blažek, this suggests that Semitic peoples assimilated their original Cushitic neighbours to the south who did not later emigrate to the Horn of Africa.

And specifically the Himyarite

During the 5th century AD, Syrian writers described the Himyarites of South Arabia as Cushaeans and Ethiopians.[1]

Cushean is Cushitic.

Scholars like Johann Michaelis and Rosenmuller have pointed out that the name Cush was applied to tracts of country on both sides of the Red Sea, in the Arabian Peninsula(Yemen) and Northeast Africa.

So yes, cultural influence is a given and not something that hasn't been known for long. So could you give evidence for the "foreign settlement of Berbera"? Because all you've shown is evidence of pre Christian and pre Islamic Cushitic settlement, which I have to thank you for.


And don't misrepresent someone else's words.

 

[Grant]

Oh yes, the foreign settlement of Berbera by the Cushites, how could we forget about that @MARAQ DIGAAG





If you read the whole study, which I did, Sara Mire and her team argue that the Horn and it's contemporary kingdoms were linked with Southern Arabian culture, most likely through trade, just like it was with Egyptian culture. This is nothing new, and especially northern Somalia has always been linked with Yemen up until recently. Aden itself was described as "majority Arab and Somali" in the 1800s.

What Sada Mire and her team did not state was that there was definitely (or perhaps or might or maybe, you never reallymade it clear) foreign settlement, which was your point.

And again, these old connections are no surprise, considering several historians and scholars believe that South Arabia used to be inhabited by Cushitic speaking peoples who were later absorbed by their Semitic neighbours to the north.


And specifically the Himyarite

Cushean is Cushitic.


View attachment 28309

So yes, cultural influence is a given and not something that hasn't been known for long. So could you give evidence for the "foreign settlement of Berbera"? Because all you've shown is evidence of pre Christian and pre Islamic Cushitic settlement, which I have to thank you for.


And don't misrepresent someone else's words.

Duh. I think you need to read back over the material you already have. One K Issac did not build the fort at Berbera. If Shaykh Isaaq was real, even he was a foreigner. The Syrians may have thought the Himyarites were Cushites or Ethiopians, but we know they were Semites that simply settled those areas. The Harari, who are what are left of the Harla, are Ethio-Semitic. Apparently Harla setttlements stretched all the way to a stone city found by the British in the eastern Nugaal. .Aw Barkhadle was the Yibir capital, and they claim to be Hebrew, with the Magan David on some graves to support the claim. The Dir were also early settlers in the north, and they are "T", also not Cushitic.

I would have to see a lot more evidence for a Cushitic substrate or even early presence in southern Arabia. I don't doubt there's something there; I just think it must have come at a much later date than you are supposing.

 

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

OK. But it's all over your face.

I didn't post this earlier because I know you think Sada Mire is also full of it. Nevertheless, she, and not you or I, did the work and is the expert. What I gave you earlier is physical proof specific to Berbera. Here is academic analysis:

Sada Mire on the Somaliland coast:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9184-9

"This report is an archaeological testimony to the social complexity and cultural diversity of this region as a cultural crossroads for millennia, being strategically located on the Red Sea and Indian Ocean. However, the maps by no means exhaust the number of archaeological sites known to us in Somaliland. The region had vast Cushitic, pre-Christian and pre-Islamic Empires that at times formed part of the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures of Southern Arabia, the Aksumite Empire and early Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa. The coastal populations were active seafarers according to Greek records as well as archaeological remains, linking to the Phoenician and Graeco-Roman worlds. They also formed part of an early global economy including the Silk Road. Islamic Empires of the Horn of Africa show an enormous wealth of long-distance trade—including material from Tang Dynasty to Ming Dynasty China—and the magnitude of some of their capitals such as the ruined town and burials of Aw-Barkhadle."


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-015-9184-9#Sec8

"There is an extensive and ancient relationship between the people and cultures of both sides of the Red Sea coast (Phillipson 1998). Rock art sites such as Dhagah Nabi Gallay and Dhagah Kureh include Sabaean and Himyarite writings associated with South Arabia (see Map 3). In certain contexts, they appear to have been added to the rock art later, suggesting by superimposition. In 2007, more rock art sites with Sabaean and Himyarite writings in and around Hargeysa region were found, but sadly some were bulldozed by developers, as the Ministry of Tourism could not buy the land or stop the destruction. I have also recorded a burial site with such writings in Shalcaw (39), on the Red Sea coast (see Fig. 4). Furthermore, the Qar-Gebi megalithic burials include what might be ancient writings, perhaps Himyarite and Sabaean, but it needs to be confirmed. The Pre-Aksumite cultures of current-day Ethiopia are linked with South Arabian kingdoms. The Pre-Aksumite Empire itself might have been part of, or at least culturally linked with, contemporary kingdoms in what is now the Somali-populated region. Not only are there links through the findings of Himyarite and Sabaean writings, but also early Christianity seems to have spread throughout the Horn, including the Somali region, as explored below. However, the burial site of Shal’aw is associated with other ancient burials in the immediate wadis in this sandy coastal landscape. The “wadi burials” are part of an ancient landscape that has been washed away by the floods and now exposed vertically, showing clear stratigraphic levels. If these burials can be rescued in time, there is a potential that we learn more about first-millennium BCE cultures of this little known Red Sea region, and associations with the Himyarite and Sabaean cultures, as well as perhaps ancient Egypt and the trade in frankincense and myrrh, still a big part of the economy in this area."

I know you think James Dahl is also just another full-of-shit White man, but his work also connects to academic studies. I think you should take another look at his maps, especially the sequence of them. Berbera was Malao. Do some research of your own.. Just saying his is Suugo Science doesn't make it so.:

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/how-accurate-are-these-maps.22166/

I thought we were discussing the time of Ibn Batuta ? Where is the proof of foreign settlements during the medieval times ? Forget all that sabaen and Aksumite Suugo science !

 

[Grant]

I thought we were discussing the time of Ibn Batuta ? Where is the proof of foreign settlements during the medieval times ? Forget all that sabaen and Aksumite Suugo science !

The question was: "any proof of Foreign settlements in Berbera ?", which was a challenge to my statement that Berbera had a history of trade and foreign settlement, which I've demonstrated.

It's clear from your past history that It doesn't make any difference what answer I give; you will always come up with another one and claim any past answers were just Suugo Science. It's your favorite answer to any issue.

Go do your own research. Let's see what you come up with to prove Cushites or Samaales built that stuff.

 

[Lord Flacko]

Duh. I think you need to read back over the material you already have. One K Issac did not build the fort at Berbera. If Shaykh Isaaq was real, even he was a foreigner. The Syrians may have thought the Himyarites were Cushites or Ethiopians, but we know they were Semites that simply settled those areas. The Harari, who are what are left of the Harla, are Ethio-Semitic. Apparently Harla setttlements stretched all the way to a stone city found by the British in the eastern Nugaal. .Aw Barkhadle was the Yibir capital, and they claim to be Hebrew, with the Magan David on some graves to support the claim. The Dir were also early settlers in the north, and they are "T", also not Cushitic.

I would have to see a lot more evidence for a Cushitic substrate or even early presence in southern Arabia. I don't doubt there's something there; I just think it must have come at a much later date than you are supposing.

All I'm reading is incoherent rambling instead of actually proof of foreign settlement in Berbera.


Cushitic is a fucking linguistic group. Dir can be whatever haplogroup, but they are Somali, speak Somali and therefore Cushitic. Like I've told you before, no population only consists of one haplogroup. Even the most homogenous people like the Nords and the Japanese have a much more varied haplogroup background than Somalis even. There are goddamn Norwegians with E1b1b1 and J, yet if you as a foreigner tried to go there and say they are different people you'd be mocked, because they all look fucking identical with the same damn culture and same main but diverse language (because they live in not too densely in a land that stretches far in atleast two directions). Same goes for Somalis.


Again, stop rambling and give me proof of foreign settlement in Berbera.


I've asked for proof of every thing you've claimed in this thread, and I have provided my own in my rebuttals to your posts. Either stop making all these claims without evidence or provide it. And don't give me stuff that is completely unrelated to what you were claiming!