Somali Origin: North or South?

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

There was no mention of Ogaden at the time of Futuh Al Habash, also Somali abtirsi expert argued that alott of Ogaden especially reer Cabdile are of Oromo origin. He argues that in their abtirsi is the name Bahale which he argues is of Oromo origin.

 

[Apollo]

Most historians say that. They dropped the arabian myth that eas widely believed in the early 20th century and came up with this idea.
I don't know if it's true but it makes sense.
I've honestly never heard of any scholar talking about central somalia or mudug as the origin of our people.

Those ''theories'' stem from the 1950s and are largely based on linguistic diversity. That's all the evidence backing the fake Southern Ethiopia theory.

No archeology, no genetics.

Latest genetic findings strongly suggest Somali ethnogenesis is in the Eastern portion of Somaliweyn. North or South doesn't matter, but definitely on the Eastern portion of Somaliweyn.

 

[Som]

Genetics is population history. It is the past recorded in alleles.

Somalis who live near the Oromo-Somali border in Southwest K5 are genetically unlike Somalis living in Somalia. They resemble those Garissa Kenyan Somalis sampled previously. Southwest K5 Somalis have significantly more Omotic affinity and can be modelled as Somali from Somalia + Borana Oromo. They cannot be ancestral to Somalis from Somalia. It is the other way around.

If genetics is so clear then why did you propose many very different places? You said it's either southern somalia, mudug or eastern kilinka 5aad those are very different places.
There's a lot of distance between southern Somalia (let's say Mogadishu area) and eastern ogadenia (let's say wardheer).

 

[Som]

There was no mention of Ogaden at the time of Futuh Al Habash, also Somali abtirsi expert argued that alott of Ogaden especially reer Cabdile are of Oromo origin. He argues that in their abtirsi is the name Bahale which he argues is of Oromo origin.

Abtirsi isn't always reliable though.
There's no genetic evidence of Ogadens being assimilated oromos. They probably mixed some times but not that much

 

[Som]

Those ''theories'' stem from the 1950s and are largely based on linguistic diversity. That's all the evidence backing the fake Southern Ethiopia theory.

No archeology, no genetics.

Latest genetic findings strongly suggest Somali ethnogenesis is in the Eastern portion of Somaliweyn. North or South doesn't matter, but definitely on the Eastern portion of Somaliweyn.

Is there any paper clearly saying that se came from the eastern part of the Horn? You are interpeting genetic evidence on your own.

 

[Som]

Sxb the theory Somalis came from southern Ethiopia is debunked as Somalis homeland is in SL for the last 7 thousands years ago

The question is were did somalis come from before being in somaliland? When i say we cane from southern ethiopia I'm talking about way ancient stuff. There was no identifiable somali people 7k years ago.

 

[Apollo]

If genetics is so clear then why did you propose many very different places? You said it's either southern somalia, mudug or eastern kilinka 5aad those are very different places.
There's a lot of distance between southern Somalia (let's say Mogadishu area) and eastern ogadenia (let's say wardheer).

My theory is that Somalis are the most genetically isolated and most divergent of the Horn of Africa Cushites and therefore must have been isolated from Ethiopian Cushites for millennia. The Eastern Horn (Eastern Somaliweyn) is the only area that fits the bill.

Southern Ethiopia near highly Omotic admixed Cushites is out of the question. Moreover, clans like Degoodi who live there don't even carry E-V32. The Degoodi carry E-M293 (South Cushitic, non-Somali E). Moreover, I have seen enough Garre autosomal samples to know that Southwest K5 cannot be the ancestral origin of proto-Somalis.

 

[Som]

My theory is that Somalis are the most genetically isolated and most divergent of the Horn of Africa Cushites and therefore must have been isolated from Ethiopian Cushites for millennia. The Eastern Horn (Eastern Somaliweyn) is the only area that fits the bill.

Southern Ethiopia near highly Omotic admixed Cushites is out of the question. Moreover, clans like Degoodi who live there don't even carry E-V32. The Degoodi carry E-M293 (South Cushitic, non-Somali E). Moreover, I have seen enough Garre autosomal samples to know that Southwest K5 cannot be the ancestral origin of proto-Somalis.

Ok, I'm open to changing my mind but is there any reliable scholar of genetics or history that supports your theory? The southern ethiopian hypothesis is supported by many scholars including somali historians

 

[Gantaal97]

The question is were did somalis come from before being in somaliland? When i say we cane from southern ethiopia I'm talking about way ancient stuff. There was no identifiable somali people 7k years ago.

uhmm experts say that probably ancient Afro Asiatic speakers originated from the highlands of Ethiopia and from there the spread to north Africa levant Arabia and HOA

 

[Apollo]

Ok, I'm open to changing my mind but is there any reliable scholar of genetics or history that supports your theory? The southern ethiopian hypothesis is supported by many scholars including somali historians

Somalis don't get studied in detail. Even in genetic studies focused on Somalis like the ones we had the past few years they decide not to make controversial statements. It is up to the anthro enthusiast community to find those important details for now. Look at this:

Kenyan Somalis are devided into two groups. One similar to Somalis from Somalia (I suspect Darods) and a group intermediate drifting towards Borana Oromos (I suspect Garres and Degoodis).

Natives of Southwest K5 like the Garre and Degoodi plot away from Somalis.

Only recent immigrant Somalis in Kenya (Darods and 1st/2nd/3rd immigrants from Somalia in Kenya) are like Somalis in Somalia.

 

[Apollo]

uhmm experts say that probably ancient Afro Asiatic speakers originated from the highlands of Ethiopia and from there the spread to north Africa levant Arabia and HOA

Rubbish.

Outdated stuff promoted by Ethiopians.

Northern Sudan (near Egypt), the Red Sea Hills, or Egypt itself is likely the urheimat of Afro-Asiatic.

 

[Gantaal97]

Rubbish.

Outdated stuff promoted by Ethiopians.

Northern Sudan, Red Sea Hills, or Egypt is likely the ethnogenesis of Afro-Asiatic.

mate HOA is ancient place a old homo sapien fossil was founded in afar region of Ethiopia named Lucy so it's maybe where we all originated from

 

[Som]

uhmm experts say that probably ancient Afro Asiatic speakers originated from the highlands of Ethiopia and from there the spread to north Africa levant Arabia and HOA

Afroasiatic urheimat (homeland) is still very debated

uhmm experts say that probably ancient Afro Asiatic speakers originated from the highlands of Ethiopia and from there the spread to north Africa levant Arabia and HOA

Afroasiatic urheimat (original homeland) location is still very debated there are scholars who say afroasiatic languages developed in the middle east, some others say ethiopia/horn of Africa, some even say north africa or southern ethiopia. proto cushitic peoples probably came from Egypt Sudan, but I'm not sure were afroasiatic came from. I'm nore inclined to say middle east cause that's were our ancient west eurasian ancestry comes from

 

[Som]

mate HOA is ancient place a old homo sapien fossil was founded in afar region of Ethiopia named Lucy so it's maybe where we all originated from

As a human race we all come from ethiopia, but we are talking about identifiable groups who developed millions of year after Lucy.
Lucy wasn't even human, it was an Australopithecus from 3 million years ago

 

[Apollo]

mate HOA is ancient place a old homo sapien fossil was founded in afar region of Ethiopia named Lucy so it's maybe where we all originated from

How is that relevant to Afro-Asiatic which emerged near the Neolithic, much much later than when the first humans appeared?

There is no evidence that Afro-Asiatic is from Ethiopia. Only based on dumb old linguistic diversity nonsense and ignoring all the latest genetic findings. Omotics carry Levantine mtDNA like K1a, while no Levantines carry Omotic paternal E-M329.

 

[Gantaal97]

How is that relevant to Afro-Asiatic which emerged near the Neolithic, much much later than when the first humans appeared?

There is no evidence that Afro-Asiatic is from Ethiopia. Only based on dumb old linguistic diversity nonsense and ignoring all the latest genetic findings. Omotics carry Levantine mtDNA like K1a, while no Levantines carry Omotic paternal E-M329.

The origins of our people or the people in the horn is still a debated issue

 

[Apollo]

The origins of our people or the people in the horn is still a debated issue

It is not at all something that is in doubt. It is pretty clear that Cushites come from Neolithic era Northeastern Sudan (outside the Horn). It's already well-known by everybody knowledgeable.

 

[Apollo]

''Haplogroup K has been found in the remains of three individuals from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site of Tell Ramad, Syria, dating from c. 6000 BC.[18]

Haplogroup K1 has likewise been observed among specimens at the mainland cemetery in Kulubnarti, Sudan, which date from the Early Christian period (AD 550-800).[24]''

^ All the Omotic populations carry K1a and there are even many Omotics with J1 to make things worse.

 

[Som]

It is not at all something that is in doubt. It is pretty clear that Cushites come from Neolithic era Northeastern Sudan (outside the Horn). It's already well-known by everybody knowledgeable.

Infact the debate is about the origins of proto somalis / modern somalis.
I think the fact rendille people live in northern kenya is another thing that makes the Southern ethiopia theory more plausible since it's not that far. Rendille people are mixed with nilotes but they language is the closest thing to af soomaali that you will ever find in east Africa.

 

[Apollo]

Infact the debate is about the origins of proto somalis / modern somalis.
I think the fact rendille people live in northern kenya is another thing that makes the Southern ethiopia theory more plausible since it's not that far. Rendille people are mixed with nilotes but they language is the closest thing to af soomaali that you will ever find in east Africa.

The Rendille are actually the biggest slam dunk debunking the Southern Ethiopia theory. They can be modelled as Somali from Somalia + Borana Oromo + minorly Samburu. They also have a big % of paternal E-M329 (which is the classical Omotic paternal marker) not found in anybody from Somalia.

The proto-Somali ancestors of the Rendille moved from Southern Somalia into Northern Kenya. Not the other way around.