Somali Origin: North or South?

[Som]

The Rendille are actually the biggest slam dunk debunking the Southern Ethiopia theory. They can be modelled as Somali from Somalia + Borana Oromo + minorly Samburu. They also have a big % of paternal E-M329 (which is the classical Omotic paternal marker) not found in anybody from Somalia.

The proto-Somali ancestors of the Rendille moved from Southern Somalia into Northern Kenya. Not the other way around.

But again the Rendille are generally believed to be originally from southern ethiopia. Never heard anyone saying the came from southern Somalia

 

[Som]

Somalis don't get studied in detail. Even in genetic studies focused on Somalis like the ones we had the past few years they decide not to make controversial statements. It is up to the anthro enthusiast community to find those important details for now. Look at this:

Kenyan Somalis are devided into two groups. One similar to Somalis from Somalia (I suspect Darods) and a group intermediate drifting towards Borana Oromos (I suspect Garres and Degoodis).

Natives of Southwest K5 like the Garre and Degoodi plot away from Somalis.

Only recent immigrant Somalis in Kenya (Darods and 1st/2nd/3rd immigrants from Somalia in Kenya) are like Somalis in Somalia.

Well if they don't make controversial statement we can only make theories.
If the eastern Somaliweyn theory is so sure i think the geneticists would have said so.
The only thing that we have is history and linguistics

 

[Apollo]

But again the Rendille are generally believed to be originally from southern ethiopia. Never heard anyone saying the came from southern Somalia

Rendilles closest linguistic subgroup are the Jubbaland low caste Somalis called Boon. The Rendille moved from Jubbaland to North-Central Kenya.

You should view things this way: Somalis are like Atlas Berbers (in their original homeland), while those weird minor Lowland East Cushites scattered in Northern Kenya and Southern Ethiopia are like Tuaregs (moved away from their homeland). You can also use South Sudan Nilotes (in original homeland) vs the Maasai (migrant) as another example.

I think Somalis or Afars are the two closest to the original LE-Cushites or living in the LE Cushite homeland.

 

[Som]

Rendilles closest linguistic subgroup are the Jubbaland low caste Somalis called Boon. The Rendille moved from Jubbaland to North-Central Kenya.

You should view things this way: Somalis are like Atlas Berbers (in their original homeland), while those weird minor Lowland East Cushites scattered in Northern Kenya and Southern Ethiopia are like Tuaregs (moved away from their homeland). You can also use South Sudan Nilotes (in original homeland) vs the Maasai (migrant) as another example.

I think Somalis or Afars are the two closest to the original LE-Cushites or living in the LE Cushite homeland.

The aweer- booni people are different from us though. They speak a language close fo somali but they are believed to have khoisan ancestry. They are basically a partially assimilated non-cushitic people
One of the other languages similar to rendille is Baiso, the. Baiso people live near lake Abaya in southern ethiopia which is the homeland of oromos and somalis according to scholar Herbert Lewis.

 

[Apollo]

Lowland East Cushitic languages - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

@Som

The first and most important split in LE Cushitic is between the Saho-Afar vs everybody else.

This to me suggest that the very first LE Cushites likely lived around Harar-Jigjiga. Roughly where Afars, Oromos, and Somalis coincide.

Subsequently, all those other ones (including Oromos) can then be explained by movement from the arid East (Somaliweyn) towards the more fertile West (Southern Ethiopia). It makes more sense migration went that way.

Nomadism erased linguistic diversity in Somaliweyn. If Somalia had a similar climate to Southern Ethiopia, we would see much more LE Cushitic linguistic diversity in Somalia. I doubt people in Djibouti and Kismaayo would be able to communicate then. So relying on linguistic diversity is iffy.

 

[Apollo]

@Apollo how come Somali population has sky rocked just after the 15th Century. For example Mohamud Salebaan ancestar was born around 15th Century. Another case study ugaas Diini was born in the 18th Century. My question how come Somali population never exploded just as it did after the 16th Century?

We are talking about prehistory. Like 2000 BCE to 500 CE era. Not the historic period.

 

[reer]

We are talking about prehistory. Like 2000 BCE to 500 CE era. Not the historic period.

is this true? that somalia was called ajan.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zengisa_Acra

 

[Apollo]

is this true? that somalia was called ajan.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zengisa_Acra

Sounds like a foreign corruption of a local name.

Madagscar is named after Mogadishu, yet it doesn't sound exactly like it. Could be something like that.

 

[Som]

Lowland East Cushitic languages - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

@Som

The first and most important split in LE Cushitic is between the Saho-Afar vs everybody else.

This to me suggest that the very first LE Cushites likely lived around Harar-Jigjiga. Roughly where Afars, Oromos, and Somalis coincide.

Subsequently, all those other ones (including Oromos) can then be explained by movement from the arid East (Somaliweyn) towards the more fertile West (Southern Ethiopia). It makes more sense migration went that way.

Nomadism erased linguistic diversity in Somaliweyn. If Somalia had a similar climate to Southern Ethiopia, we would see much more LE Cushitic linguistic diversity in Somalia. I doubt people in Djibouti and Kismaayo would be able to communicate then. So relying on linguistic diversity is iffy.

Well we aren't discussing the original LE cushtic origins though. Those cane way before somalis or proto somalis.
We are talking about modern ethnic somalis as a distinct group from everyone else

 

[Som]

is this true? that somalia was called ajan.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zengisa_Acra

Ajan may be a corruption of Ajam which means non-arab or foreigner in Arabic

 

[Apollo]

Well we aren't discussing the original LE cushtic origins though. Those cane way before somalis or proto somalis.
We are talking about modern ethnic somalis as a distinct group from everyone else

We need to use as many hints as possible. We already know that the first Cushites came from Northeast Sudan, then we see Agaws splitting away, then the Saho-Afar splitting away. This leads us to Harar-Jigiga. Then you also got to contend with those very old cave paintings in Hargeisa (near the area where I hypothesize the first LE-Cs to have come from). There are also very early pastoralist archeological sites in Djibouti.

All in all, this leads me to believe the proto-Southern LE Cushites lived in Somaliweyn and movements Westward + favorable climate in Southern Ethiopia lead to more linguistic diversity of S-LE-C in Ethiopia, but the homeland could still be Somaliweyn.

 

[Som]

We need to use as many hints as possible. We already know that the first Cushites came from Northeast Sudan, then we see Agaws splitting away, then the Saho-Afar splitting away. This leads us to Harar-Jigiga. Then you also got to contend with those very old cave paintings in Hargeisa (near the area where I hypothesize the first LE-Cs to have come from). There are also very early pastoralist archeological sites in Djibouti.

All in all, this leads me to believe the proto-Southern LE Cushites lived in Somaliweyn and movements Westward + favorable climate in Southern Ethiopia lead to more linguistic diversity of S-LE-C in Ethiopia, but the homeland could still be Somaliweyn.

We definitely need more studies.
I get that somalis are genetically isolated and unique but who is the horner group closest genetically to us? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think oromos are the closest to us or at least that's what genetic papers always say. And were do oromos come from? We are pretty much sure they originated as a distinct people in southern ethiopia, this leads us to the southern ethiopia hypothesis.
I admit your idea makes a lot of sense but there's still some stuff that is unclear.

 

[Apollo]

We definitely need more studies.
I get that somalis are genetically isolated and unique but who is the horner group closest genetically to us? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think oromos are the closest to us or at least that's what genetic papers always say. And were do oromos come from? We are pretty much sure they originated as a distinct people in southern ethiopia, this leads us to the southern ethiopia hypothesis.
I admit your idea makes a lot of sense but there's still some stuff that is unclear.

Oromos to me seem like they came from proto-Somalis from the East. They absorbed many groups, especially Agaws and Omotics. The Konso who speak an Oromo-related language are genetically even majority Paleo-Omotic, not even majority Cushitic. They are even more Omotic than the Wolayta (actual Omotic speakers).

This is why I am so extremely skeptical of the Southern Ethiopia theory. Many of those groups seem to have roots in other ethnicities. In Lopez et al. (2019) the Daasanach form an autosomal clade with the Nyangatom (Nilotes) and the El Molo do with the Samburu (Nilotes again).

Oromos form clades with various Southwest Ethiopians or with the Agaw.

Somalis are the only unique LE Cushites in that pan-Ethiopia cluster analysis.

 

[BigShaq]

Southern ethiopia is unlikely. We got no omotic, which we would have if we were near oromos/southern cushites.

Gotta be somewhere far away from other groups that allowed us to be isolated in the horn, cause we're weirdly pure and unmixed

 

[BigShaq]

is this true? that somalia was called ajan.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zengisa_Acra

"Ajan=ajuraan"

 

[Som]

Southern ethiopia is unlikely. We got no omotic, which we would have if we were near oromos/southern cushites.

Gotta be somewhere far away from other groups that allowed us to be isolated in the horn, cause we're weirdly pure and unmixed

According to my suugo science maybe we left southern ethiopia so much earlier than oromos and later stayed isolated for thousands of years which explains why we lack omotic

 

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

We need to use as many hints as possible. We already know that the first Cushites came from Northeast Sudan, then we see Agaws splitting away, then the Saho-Afar splitting away. This leads us to Harar-Jigiga. Then you also got to contend with those very old cave paintings in Hargeisa (near the area where I hypothesize the first LE-Cs to have come from). There are also very early pastoralist archeological sites in Djibouti.

All in all, this leads me to believe the proto-Southern LE Cushites lived in Somaliweyn and movements Westward + favorable climate in Southern Ethiopia lead to more linguistic diversity of S-LE-C in Ethiopia, but the homeland could still be Somaliweyn.

If Agaw split first than Saho-Afar it probibally means we entered Somali Puninsuala from low lands of Eritrea. Proto Eastern Cushites were one group Agaw stayed in Central Eritrea than Afar-Saho and Somalis split in Southern Eritrea.

 

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

According to my suugo science maybe we left southern ethiopia so much earlier than oromos and later stayed isolated for thousands of years which explains why we lack omotic

Low lands of Eritrea is a easier entry route into the Somali Puninsuala rather than the Ethiopian Highland or going through the NILOTE dominated south Sudan. Even if we entered Somali Puninsuala from norther Highland of Ethiopia and Somali population would have had more diverse Y paternal haplogroups

 

[Mujahid Nur Marehan]

I predict that even the Afar were native to the Highlands of Eritrea hence their DIVERSE pstsrnal Y Haplogroups. I think the original proto Afar - Saho languages were the Saho people. I predict the Afar population later until very recently lived in the Highlands of Eritrea. Where as the Saho bordered the Somali population.

 

[Deleted L]

where do somalis originate from? north or south? i think the recent migrations to the juba valley nfd and south ethiopia within the last 150 years has affected theories.
@SOMALI GENERAL @Apollo @Som

i think somalis come from koonfuria. if we had northern origins we would be speaking a south semitic language not a cushitic language.

Majority of the clan patriarch graves are located in the north, especially Sanaag. It makes absolutely no sense for us to migrate from lush and green south to the dry hot deserts of the north. It was the north we originated from.