xalimathe6
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Dir are Somali.
You once again, trying to discredit anything Somali which is all you do. Don't you ever get bored?
Somalis were native to Hararghe until the Oromo expansion after the weakening of Adal Sultanate.
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You once again, trying to discredit anything Somali which is all you do. Don't you ever get bored?
Specifically in the Horn since the highest concentration of E1b1b is the Somali peninsula.
This is from Eupedia E1b1b:
Note that V22, V32 and T1a are all from the Near East/Levant. E1b1b is just the base.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
Red Sea origins & Neolithic expansion
Haplogroup E1b1b (formerly known as E3b) represents the last major direct migration from Africa into Europe. It is believed to have first appeared in the Horn of Africa approximately 26,000 years ago and dispersed to North Africa and the Near East during the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic periods. E-M78 and E-Z827 originated respectively at 20,000 years and 24,000 years. E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic languages.
Lazaridis et al. (2016) tested the first ancient DNA samples from the Mesolithic Natufian culture in Israel, possibly the world's oldest sedentary community, and found that the male individuals belonged either to haplogroups CT or E1b1 (including two E1b1b1b2 samples). These are to date the oldest known E1b1b individuals. The same haplogroups show up in Pre-Pottery Neolithic B Jordan, accompanied by new haplogroups (H2 and T). Besides, E1b1b was not found in Neolithic Iran or Anatolia, and only showed up twice among the hundreds of Neolithic European samples that have been tested. This evidence suggests that at the end of the last glaciation 12,000 years ago, E1b1b men were present in the Levant, but not in other parts of the Near East. There is evidence that the Natufians already cultivated cereals like rye before the Neolithic period. Cereal farming may therefore trace its roots (literally) to the E1b1b tribes of the Mesolithic Levant.
Marieke van de Loosdrecht et al. (2018) tested the DNA of seven 15,000-year-old modern humans from Taforalt Cave in northeastern Morocco, and all of the six males belonged to haplogroup E-M78. Autosomally they could be modelled as 2/3 Natufian and 1/3 Sub-Saharan African (West African), confirming the close genetic link between Late Paleolithic North Africans and Mesolithic South Levantines.
Nowadays, the highest genetic diversity of haplogroup E1b1b is observed in Northeast Africa, especially in Ethiopia and Somalia, which also have the monopoly of older and rarer branches like M281, V6 or V92. This suggests that E1b1b may indeed have appeared in East Africa, then expanded north until the Levant. Nevertheless, many lineages now found among the Ethiopians and Somalians appear to have come from the Fertile Crescent during the Neolithic period. This includes some E1b1b subclades like V22 (12,000 years old) and V32 (10,000 years old), but also undeniably Near Eastern lineages like T1a-CTS2214 and J1-L136.
I agree with you that Afran Qallos are not all of Somali origin. However, if one is to be truthful, the Babille section are mainly Hawiye. The Noole have Harla, Darood, Oromo, Dir etc in them. The Jarso also possess Dir, Darood and Oromo subclans in them. Several ethnicities are well represented in the Afran Qallo. Unlike some other Oromos, the Afran Qallo have retained their Abtirsis, and AQ never referred to a common clan ancestor.
In regard to Akichu/Akisho/Gurre, names can change with assimilation. How many Arsi subclans have clearly Hadiya names despite the fact a sizeable amount of them are assimilated Hadiyas? How many Highland Oromo subclans have distinctly Habasha names etc.? Few or none is the answer. With language shift, names also change!
No one is trying to split up the Afran Qallo but you cannot deny that a relatively large percentage of the AQ are Somali in origin.
That website is unreliable to say the least because every Tom, Dick and Harry posts Shite on there.
Somali clans are older than the Futuh Al Habash Wars. We Dirs have always identified as Samaale, and that is not an ethnic identity unique to us. You confuse Samaale with clans that are assimilated Samaales. According to folklore, only some Somali clans are Samaale. The Ajuuran, for example, belong to a distinct Samaale branch. We do not acknowledge the false history that was promoted by some present day Somalis that claim they have a maternal link with Dir when their fraudulent 'Arab' patriarchs settled in the Horn.
Dawaro Sultanate was a Somali Sultanate centred in Hararghe and established by the Jarso clan which is a sub-clan of Dir.
"By Somali reckoning, the founder of Dawaro Sultanate was Jārso people belonging to the Ali Madaḥweyne branch which is a sub-clan of Dir. After the Oromo migrations, the ʿAli Madaḥweyne Dir were absorbed into the Afran Qallo Barentuma confederation, and today the Jarso are reckoned as Jārsō Daggā Qāllō Barentuma Oromō.[2]"
Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_Dawaro
"The Dir clan used to be the predominant inhabitants of Hararghe Highlands in the medieval times until the weakening of Adal Sultanate the opportunist Oromos took advantage of the crippling state and decided to invade and occuppy the Haraghe Highlands and assimilate the local native Somali population which were Jarso, Akisho, Gurgura, Nole, Metta, Oborra and Bursuk who were all sub-clans of Dir a major Somali tribe and were later confederated into Oromo tribe, the Afran Qallo clan."
"The city Dire Dawa was originally called Dir Dhabe and used to be part of Adal Sultanate during the medieval times and was exclusively settled by Dir which is a major Somali tribe and after the weakening of Adal Sultanate, the Oromos took advantage and were able to penetrate through the city and settle into these areas and also assimilate some of the local Gurgura clan.[19]"
Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dir_(clan)
Further looking into the sources and man why do I feel like this. Beehsa Dir went through hell
Somalis must unite and re-claim Hararghe and bring back the assimilated Somalis to their original identity. We have historical claims to Harar and Hararghe so it's all good. Inshallah may Somalis golden age begin in the modern world.
Pardon my French, but most of what you posted is BS. No offence meant.
No he didn't and I'll come back educate this Afran Qallo guy when I have the time.
I agree with you that Afran Qallos are not all of Somali origin. However, if one is to be truthful, the Babille section are mainly Hawiye. The Noole have Harla, Darood, Oromo, Dir etc in them. The Jarso also possess Dir, Darood and Oromo subclans in them. Several ethnicities are well represented in the Afran Qallo. Unlike some other Oromos, the Afran Qallo have retained their Abtirsis, and AQ never referred to a common clan ancestor.
In regard to Akichu/Akisho/Gurre, names can change with assimilation. How many Arsi subclans have clearly Hadiya names despite the fact a sizeable amount of them are assimilated Hadiyas? How many Highland Oromo subclans have distinctly Habasha names etc.? Few or none is the answer. With language shift, names also change!
No one is trying to split up the Afran Qallo but you cannot deny that a relatively large percentage of the AQ are Somali in origin.
That website is unreliable to say the least because every Tom, Dick and Harry posts Shite on there.
Somali clans are older than the Futuh Al Habash Wars. We Dirs have always identified as Samaale, and that is not an ethnic identity unique to us. You confuse Samaale with clans that are assimilated Samaales. According to folklore, only some Somali clans are Samaale. The Ajuuran, for example, belong to a distinct Samaale branch. We do not acknowledge the false history that was promoted by some present day Somalis that claim they have a maternal link with Dir when their fraudulent 'Arab' patriarchs settled in the Horn.
A smart logical brother who knows his stuff.
I won’t deny we have assimilated peoples amongst Oromos period. We have tons, but so does every other ethnicity in this world.
The Babille are the smallest clan amongst AQ. The Hawiya only include the Karanle. They are not he majority amongst the Babille. Majority are the Mayya who live around Haromaya.
I’m Noole, I know who is who amongst our clan. Nothing to deny. I have Somali roots down the line myself, but that doesn’t mean I want to leave my Oromo brothers to join a greater Somalia. I wish nothing but the best for our neighbors, and hopefully you all unite one day but we are good with what we have.
The Akichu are not of Somali Origin. They are listed as one of the largest and most powerful Oromo clans in Aba berhys “Oromo expansion” book. They were the largest and most powerful amongst the Barento Oromo, but have slowly became Somali.
AQ is a clan, and we originally come from Qallo. He had four sons etc. There has just been a lot of assimilation down the line.
We all count to qallo as our common ancestor.
The northern Oromos didn’t assimilate any habesha. Rather they have been assimilated and became Amhara today, they still have Oromo clan names but practice an Amhara culture, or tigrayan if we talk about the Raya.
I agree with you that Afran Qallos are not all of Somali origin. However, if one is to be truthful, the Babille section are mainly Hawiye. The Noole have Harla, Darood, Oromo, Dir etc in them. The Jarso also possess Dir, Darood and Oromo subclans in them. Several ethnicities are well represented in the Afran Qallo. Unlike some other Oromos, the Afran Qallo have retained their Abtirsis, and AQ never referred to a common clan ancestor.
In regard to Akichu/Akisho/Gurre, names can change with assimilation. How many Arsi subclans have clearly Hadiya names despite the fact a sizeable amount of them are assimilated Hadiyas? How many Highland Oromo subclans have distinctly Habasha names etc.? Few or none is the answer. With language shift, names also change!
No one is trying to split up the Afran Qallo but you cannot deny that a relatively large percentage of the AQ are Somali in origin.
That website is unreliable to say the least because every Tom, Dick and Harry posts Shite on there.
Somali clans are older than the Futuh Al Habash Wars. We Dirs have always identified as Samaale, and that is not an ethnic identity unique to us. You confuse Samaale with clans that are assimilated Samaales. According to folklore, only some Somali clans are Samaale. The Ajuuran, for example, belong to a distinct Samaale branch. We do not acknowledge the false history that was promoted by some present day Somalis that claim they have a maternal link with Dir when their fraudulent 'Arab' patriarchs settled in the Horn.
Of course, I agree.
T1a is not E1b1b nor is it V22 or V32.
The Isaaq and Darood clans form in the 12th-13th centuries, so they are several hundred years older than the Adal wars, but not ancient. And I am not all that confused. Those who try to conflate Samaale with Somali do us all a disservice. They belong in the politics section, not here in history.
No, you're just being a fairytale right now. Studies have shown that Somalis is more than 3 thousand years old and Samaale is nothing but a lineage. Sorry, there are ancient documents of Samaale clans having full Somalinized lineages but after adopting Islam, they Arabized their lineages. Darood and Isaaq aren't new but are part of Samaale. They just Arabized their lineage due to adopting Islam. Somalis are ancient people and stop dividing them or saying they came out of no where because they are direct decedents of Barbara people, Macrobians and ancient Puntites. Let's not forget they originated from Northern Somalia.
You just need to retire oldman and focus on other stuffs instead of trolling on Somali history section forums.
The oldest abtirsi I am aware of is about 800 years old, so I would really like to see those documents. If you can't come up with them then please just stay away. Your linkless opinions have no historical value and belong elsewhere.
Remember this. All your views about Somalis is nothing more but a baseless lies coming from your imagination and is not historically docummented and you and I both know that. So I suggest you retire and stop trolling into Somali history section forums because your historical revisionist that don't belong here.
Now the Somali lineages are thousands of years old specifically the Samaale and Sab who are decedent of Hool the father of all Somalis. Here is the source of ethnic Somalis Arabizing their lineage after adopting Islam during the Hijra period in the 7th century.
Also, remember the oldest Somali documment was mentioned in the 9th century by an Armenian scholar called Al-Yaqubi who mentioned them as "Samaal" during the early Adal Kingdom and Mogadishu Sultanate.
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Remember this. All your views about Somalis is nothing more but a baseless lies coming from your imagination and is not historically docummented and you and I both know that. So I suggest you retire and stop trolling into Somali history section forums because your historical revisionist don't belong here.
Now the Somali lineages are thousands of years old specifically the Samaale and Sab who are decedent of Hool the father of all Somalis. Here is the source of ethnic Somalis Arabizing their lineage after adopting Islam during the Hijra period in the 7th century.
Also, remember the oldest Somali documment was memtioned in the 9th century by an Armenian scholar called Al-Yaqubi who mentioned them as "Samaal" during the early Adal Kingdom and Mogadishu Sultanate.
What document is this from?
Article of Somalia which are Hephaestus Books.
Also, ask @Rooble he has the full Somali version of Samaale abtirsi. I don't know if he's banned but I'll check somnet as he was educating other Somalis. He's Dir by the way.
James Dahl
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I think there are a lot of pitfalls in looking at Hararghe as a Somali or Oromo region and the clans and tribes therein prior to the Oromo invasion as being this or that. There were many Muslim Habesha tribes in this area that have virtually disappeared, their towns were burned.
A lot of the Oromo clans in Hararghe were originally Somali clans or Habesha Muslim clans who were absorbed into the Oromo system and language. The Oromo and Somali ethnicities were also not very well defined at this point in history and there's kind of a grey area between the two that persists to this day, to the point where no-one is really sure if Akisho were originally Oromo or Somali.
The disputes over whether this or that clan is Oromo or Somali is a result of 20th/21st century nationalism, and isn't something that used to bother people. It reminds me of Macedonians in the 19th century where Bulgarians and Serbs both claimed them, whereas in truth they were sort of the grey area between the two.
A lot of the Oromo clans in Hararghe were originally Somali clans or Habesha Muslim clans who were absorbed into the Oromo system and language. The Oromo and Somali ethnicities were also not very well defined at this point in history and there's kind of a grey area between the two that persists to this day, to the point where no-one is really sure if Akisho were originally Oromo or Somali.
The disputes over whether this or that clan is Oromo or Somali is a result of 20th/21st century nationalism, and isn't something that used to bother people. It reminds me of Macedonians in the 19th century where Bulgarians and Serbs both claimed them, whereas in truth they were sort of the grey area between the two.
Remember this. All your views about Somalis is nothing more but a baseless lies coming from your imagination and is not historically docummented and you and I both know that. So I suggest you retire and stop trolling into Somali history section forums because your historical revisionist that don't belong here.
Now the Somali lineages are thousands of years old specifically the Samaale and Sab who are decedent of Hool the father of all Somalis. Here is the source of ethnic Somalis Arabizing their lineage after adopting Islam during the Hijra period in the 7th century.
Also, remember the oldest Somali documment was mentioned in the 9th century by an Armenian scholar called Al-Yaqubi who mentioned them as "Samaal" during the early Adal Kingdom and Mogadishu Sultanate.
You are useless. "Historians all agree" with not a single link or reference anywhere?! 7th century is not thousands of years, and Zeila had a mixed population including Arabs and Afars from the very beginning. The oldest somali Abtirsi only go back to about 1200 AD. In the 9th century Samaal would just have meant Dir. The northern Somali clans don't even form until the 12th-13th centuries. Simur and Somali aren't known names until some Ethiopian courtier writes a poem about Ethiopian Emperor Yishaq defeating them in the 1420s. Adal was only established in 1415. The first Warsangeli Sultanate was established in 1218, the Hobyo Sultanate in the 1880s.
Remember your map? At the time of the Periplus in the 1st century AD, the Farside Ports belonged to the Indo-Scythian Kingdom of Nambanus, who used the ports in an East-West trade with Rome and others in the West because they were not welcome in the Sabaean ports across the Gulf of Aden.
https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/periplus/periplus.html
"The South West monsoon was key for the voyage from the West to India: Ships would leave Egypt in July in order to catch the wind bringing them safely into India in September. If the ship left earlier, in June, it would run the risk of arriving on India's west coast in August at which time conditions are very hazardous. The return voyage with the North East monsoon did not have to be so carefully timed although regular departure was in December-January."
Check your map. Mog and points south on the coast belonged to Charibael of Himyar, who is described as a friend of Rome. Somalis don't control Mog until the Yacuub Abgal take it from the Yemenis about 1624. It was the Arabs and the Indians that had the ships. The beden ships built at Hafun come much later.
Proto-Somalis go back 2-3000 years, but Somalis as such have to form and grow in numbers. It clearly didn't happen overnight or on your schedule.
Not all oromo have origins in kenya. My clan the maccaa came from what is now bale.
This and other papers claim the Oromo came up the Blue Nile from Kush. Note on this map that they push the Kenya border today and also cover much of the Blue Nile watershed. This one is a publication of "The Mecha and Tulama Self-Help Association (which) was an Oromo social movement in Ethiopia. The movement was primarily based in Bale, but was active in other regions as well (including Addis Ababa). The organization was banned in 1966, and some of its leaders jailed and killed. The Association was established by Oromo nationalists like Mamo Mezemer, Haila Mariam Gemeda and Alemu Kitessa."
http://machatulama.net/oromo-people/
"The Cushitic speakers have inhabited north-eastern and eastern Africa for as long as recorded history. The land of Cush, Nubia or the ancient Ethiopia in middle and lower Nile is the home of the Cushitic speakers. It was most probably from there that they subsequently dispersed and became differentiated into separate linguistic and cultural groups. The various Cushitic nations inhabiting north-east and east Africa today are the result of this dispersion and differentiation. The Oromo form one of those groups which spread southwards, and then east and west occupying large part of the Horn of Africa. Their physical features, culture, language and other evidences unequivocally point to the fact that they are indigenous to this part of Africa. Available information clearly indicates that the Oromo existed as a community of people for thousands of years in East Africa (Prouty at al, 1981). Bates (1979) contends, "The Gallas (Oromo) were a very ancient race, the indigenous stock, perhaps, on which most other peoples in this part of eastern Africa have been grafted."
The history of the arrival of the Oromo people in the sixteenth century in East Africa from outside is a fabrication and denial of historical facts. It is a myth created by Abyssinian court historians and monks, sustained by their European supporters and which the Ethiopian rulers used to lay claim on Oromo territory and justify their colonization of the Oromo people. Several authorities have indicated that the Oromo were in fact in the North-eastern part of the continent even before the arrival of theHabasha. According to Perham (1948): "the emigrant Semites landed in a continent of which the North-East appears to have been inhabited by the eastern groups ofHamites, often called Kushites, who also include the Gallas." Paulitschke (1889) indicated that Oromo were in East Africa during the Aksumite period. As recorded by Greenfield (1965), Oromo reject the view that they were late arrivals, "... old men amongst the Azebu and Rayya Galla dismiss talk of their being comparative newcomers." Their own (Abyssinians) oral history and legends attest to the fact that Oromo have been living in Rayya for a long time. Beke (cited by Pankurst, 1985-86) quoted the following Lasta legend: "Menilek, the son of Solomon, ... entered Abyssinia from the East, beyond the country of the Rayya or Azebo Gallas." There are also evidence (Greenfield et al, 1980) that at least by the ninth and tenth centuries that there were Oromo communities around Shawa and by about the fourteenth century settlements were reported around Lake Tana. The recent discovery, (Lynch and Robbins, 1978), in northern Kenya of the pillars that Oromo used in the invention of their calendar system, dated around 300 B.C., is another indication that Oromo have a long history of presence as a community of people, in this part of Africa."
Are you forgetting the Gugundhabe (Gundaba) Babille subclan who are also Hawiye? Just like the Karanle (Karalla), they constitute a significant part of the Babille Oromo.
Aba Berhys mentions a clan called Akacu, but this was a stand alone clan that did not descend from Humbana. The Oborras presumably descend from Humbana and it cannot necessarily be inferred that the Somali Gurre/Akisho refers to Akacu. Modern Oromo historian revisionists like M. Hassan are trying to link the Somali Gurre/Akisho clan that historically lived close to the Northern Somali coast with the defunct Akacu Oromo subclan. He goes as far as claiming that the Oromos expanded into the Northern Somali coast because the Gurre/Akisho lived there; this is an outright revisionist lie.
Moreover, unlike the Gurre/Akisho in Hararghe, the ones that live in Southern K5 resisted the Oromo assimilation attempts and maintained their separate Somali identity. Like the Gurgura, they did intermarry with the Oromo but avoided becoming fully Oromo. Oromo clans that have been assimilated into Somalis have traditionally been conquered but there is no historical evidence to suggest that the Gurre/Akisho in Southern K5 were ever conquered people. In contrast, the Arsi that were assimilated into the Awliyahan Ogaden clan and the Wardei that falsely claim to be Dir were victims of Somali expansion. We Dirs have never doubted the authenticity of the Gurre Madaxweyne Dir lineage.
You confuse Habasha with Amhars and Tigray. What do you think happened to the Semitic-speaking Gafat people that the Oromos invaded? They no longer exist as a separate people and have been fully Oromised. Their Semitic identity/language died after the Highland Oromo clans assimilated the conquered people of Damot.
There is no debate that etymology of the word Somali comes from the mythical Samaale ancestor. Hence, why clans that are unequivocally Somali such as Dir are held up as archetypal Somalis, and also why some non-Samaale clans claim to be maternally linked to them. I agree Somali/Samaale is not an ancient ethnic identity, nor is it the result of one genetic founder effect, tell me which non-isolated ethnic group in the World is? Nonetheless, clans that have no traditional association with Samaale such as the Bantus and relatively recent Semitic migrants are not in anyway, ethnically speaking, Somali.
As for Darood and Isaaq, no one can deny that Daroods are Somali even though they are not identified with Samaale. Isaaq are Samaale but have created a clan identity separate to Dir and many of them claim to be Arabs descended from the Prophet's SAWS family.
I’m not denying the Hawiye amongst the Babille clan. But they are not the majority. The Maya are the majority amongst the Babille. They live in the Babille area towards Haromaya which is named after them.
I never said Akichu are Afran Qallo. Akichu are sons of Bareetuma. Bareentu had 5 sons: Karrayyu, Marawa, Akichu, Dhumuga and Humbanna.
The Akichu amongst Obborra have the same name but different subclans from Akichu Bareentuma who have become Somali. They were one of the largest amongst the Bareentu, and first to love eastwards towards the Somali. They’ve been amongst Somalis the longest, hence why they’ve assimilated.
I know of the assimilated habesha groups. We still have some who keep their name and line amongst Oromos. The Argobba, Warji etc are still around. They just speak Oromo today.
I admitted that Oromos have assimilated many people. The Gafat lived around Shawa, which would mean central Oromos assimilated then- Tulama clan.
The Wallo moved long before the assimilation, they joined the Muslim habesha and intermixed with them, but down the line all were assimilated into the Amhara culture.
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