Some Somalis are now claiming Harar, and calling Hararis a fake ethnicity

[Idilinaa]

So the stuff about Imam Ahmed subjugating some nomadic Somali clans to fight for him is false? Cause I usually see that as an argument against Adal or Gurey not being Somali but I ignored it since I thought it was an isolated example since Somalis were the first people to answer the call of the Imam.

The sultanate didn't conquer Bedouin Somalis and they were not some outside group.
They were already within the sultanates and made up its army, the country side inhabitants alongside sedentary Somali clans.

The Imam was subjugating and fighting was the ones who were in the service and support of the Sultan. The sultanate was split into two factions , those who supported the Imam and those who supported the Sultan. Imam was leading a revolution btw, he was originally an Emir under the service of the Sultan himself.

Some of them supported the Sa'ad din faction with the sultan Abu Bakr and some supported Imam Ahmed. Imam Ahmed is figthing against the sultanate faction. Sometimes they were supporting different Emirs fighting. They are clashing with eachother throughout Futuh.

 

[Idilinaa]

As for Harari they are a composite ethnicity made up of Gurage and Oromo that entered a Somali city and later named themselves after it.

Their language is a Gurage divergent. And up until recently they were conscious about their ethnic connections to the East Gurage.

Gurage is mentioned in Futuh as non Muslim peasants who were subjects of Ethiopians and they did not participate in the war or were warriors.

Some really convincing pieces of evidence and documentation is shared in this thread:
Along with how most of the Harar Emirs prior to intermarriage with Gurage Oromo in the early mid 1800s were Somalis with Somali genealogical traditions and used to intermarry with Bartirii and Geri most often.

I have seen many times people claiming Harar to be the fourth holiest city in Islam. Why is this the case?

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/gallery/2017/6/25/the-walled-city-of-harar-in-eastern-ethiopia-14

www.somalispot.com

 

[Galool]

As for Harari they are a composite ethnicity made up of Gurage and Oromo that entered a Somali city and later named themselves after it.

Their language is a Gurage divergent. And up until recently they were conscious about their ethnic connections to the East Gurage.

Gurage is mentioned in Futuh as non Muslim peasants who were subjects of Ethiopians and they did not participate in the war or were warriors.
View attachment 348573


Some really convincing pieces of evidence and documentation is shared in this thread:
Along with how most of the Harar Emirs prior to intermarriage with Gurage Oromo in the early mid 1800s were Somalis with Somali genealogical traditions and used to intermarry with Bartirii and Geri most often.

I have seen many times people claiming Harar to be the fourth holiest city in Islam. Why is this the case?

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/gallery/2017/6/25/the-walled-city-of-harar-in-eastern-ethiopia-14

www.somalispot.com

If Somalia had not been divided up they would be called Reer Harar similar to the Reer Xamar, another mixed Somali group among the majority Somali people. The minority settled mixed groups always are nicknamed after the town they reside in.

Somalias cities have always attracted Muslims fleeing and merchants. The cities always have some diversity.

But with Harar there were massacres and Somalis were driven out and continue to be and they have Ethiopianized the Harari people there.

It still has a large ethiopian military base there and they destroyed the large Masjid and turned it into a church.

Its sad because the cities Islamic character has been degraded heavily and flooded with other groups. It seems like a ghost of what it used to be, which was a Muslim stronghold. Now it just looks to be a tourist spot.

In this video I recently saw about it and shared you can see a lot of the Somali culture still there but it is sad the vlogger says there are a lot of mentally ill people there. He says that every house has a mentally unwell person and he attributes it to their marrying within themselves and witch craft. Even the next scene, he shows the Masjid and there are people casually and openly eating khat in it. It is unfortunate.

This is the other thread

Somalis Kingdoms and Sultanates?

Do you have any maps of Somaliweyn during the 18th-19th century that depicts all these polities? Google images is horrible for finding historical Somali maps The ones i've seen online are terrible. No but i can make one. I could also make one also of middle ages as well, as aside by side...

www.somalispot.com

 

[Idilinaa]

If Somalia had not been divided up they would be called Reer Harar similar to the Reer Xamar, another mixed Somali group among the majority Somali people. The minority settled mixed groups always are nicknamed after the town they reside in.

Somalias cities have always attracted Muslims fleeing and merchants. The cities always have some diversity.

But with Harar there were massacres and Somalis were driven out and continue to be and they have Ethiopianized the Harari people there.

It still has a large ethiopian military base there and they destroyed the large Masjid and turned it into a church.

Its sad because the cities Islamic character has been degraded heavily and flooded with other groups. It seems like a ghost of what it used to be, which was a Muslim stronghold. Now it just looks to be a tourist spot.

In this video I recently saw about it and shared you can see a lot of the Somali culture still there but it is sad the vlogger says there are a lot of mentally ill people there. He says that every house has a mentally unwell person and he attributes it to their marrying within themselves and witch craft. Even the next scene, he shows the Masjid and there are people casually and openly eating khat in it. It is unfortunate.

This is the other thread

Somalis Kingdoms and Sultanates?

Do you have any maps of Somaliweyn during the 18th-19th century that depicts all these polities? Google images is horrible for finding historical Somali maps The ones i've seen online are terrible. No but i can make one. I could also make one also of middle ages as well, as aside by side...

www.somalispot.com

Somalis in Harar were betrayed from within. The Emir imprisoned his own family and used marriage alliance with the Gurage speaking Oromo to take power.

Here it is mentioned by a visitor in 1840.

Another source that speaks more on this:

This situation is very different from a regular Somali city where the inhabitants are made up of people from the surrounding country side and individual immigrants who settled and intermarried with them which is common in most commercial cities. Immigrants became aculturalized and picked up the language & culture of the natives in the process

Harar the situation is almost reverse. Gurage/Oromo came into the city after being converted then they segregated themselves into separate quarters and they spoke their own language , they also spoke Somali as 2nd language, the language of most inhabitants i presume.

Since they were converted by Somalis their Islamic character and customs reflect that, even the Somali saint cult Awliyo.

Somalis don't name themselves after a city or a town as a cultural name. It would be like calling oneself Londonis people because you live in London when you are culturally connected to the wider country of England.

Reer means family. So when they use it they mean ''The family/people from that territory'' or 'occupation''

For example people from the walled city of Zayla were referred to as Reer Awdal and people from the walled city of Lugh were called Reer Kofur.

Not only did they turn it into a tourist prop or open museum of some sort. Ethiopians looted a lot of its treasures and show it as part of their collections in Addis.

Before it was referred to as ''The Alma Matter of Somali lands'' , it was a prestigious place of learning and it had a grand university Mosque similar to Mogadishu's Jami Mosque

It could have continued to develop into a city of scholarship and learning, but it fell into utter neglect and destitution.
It could have became much more vibrant , developed and busy city, like how Mogadishu looked in the 70s/80s and how busy and mor developed it's becoming now as its rebuilding and it could have been a regional center.

SYL had plans on making it the capital if it was successful in uniting western galbeed with Somalia.

 

[Laser]

Somalis in Harar were betrayed from within. The Emir imprisoned his own family and used marriage alliance with the Gurage speaking Oromo to take power.




This situation is very different from a regular Somali city where the inhabitants are made up of people from the surrounding country side and individual immigrants who settled and intermarried with them which is common in most commercial cities. Immigrants became aculturalized and picked up the language & culture of the natives in the process

Harar the situation is almost reverse. Gurage/Oromo came into the city after being converted then they segregated themselves into separate quarters and they spoke their own language , they also spoke Somali as 2nd language, the language of most inhabitants i presume.

Since they were converted by Somalis their Islamic character and customs reflect that, even the Somali saint cult Awliyo.

Somalis don't name themselves after a city or a town as a cultural name. It would be like calling oneself Londonis people because you live in London when you are culturally connected to the wider country of England.

Reer means family. So when they use it they mean ''The family/people from that territory'' or 'occupation''

For example people from the walled city of Zayla were referred to as Reer Awdal and people from the walled city of Lugh were called Reer Kofur.

Not only did they turn it into a tourist prop or open museum of some sort. Ethiopians looted a lot of its treasures and show it as part of their collections in Addis.

Before it was referred to as ''The Alma Matter of Somali lands'' , it was a prestigious place of learning and it had a grand university Mosque similar to Mogadishu's Jami Mosque

It could have continued to develop into a city of scholarship and learning, but it fell into utter neglect and destitution.
It could have became much more vibrant , developed and busy city, like how Mogadishu looked in the 70s/80s and how busy and mor developed it's becoming now as its rebuilding and it could have been a regional center.

SYL had plans on making it the capital if it was successful in uniting western galbeed with Somalia.

The emir was somali not oromo

 

[Idilinaa]

The emir was somali not oromo

That was what i was saying, he betrayed Somalis and his family and was adopted by Gurage speaking Oromo's who he used as backing to usurp power

 

[enda_el]

Could be true, I don’t know why random people in Madagascar would claim Dir origin out of the blue

I skimmed sources and saw nothing about that. Only claims of arabs/swahili

 

[Idilinaa]

I skimmed sources and saw nothing about that. Only claims of arabs/swahili

The Malagasy people that inhabit Madagascar are neither Arab or Swahili. They related to Austronesians and they settled there many thousands of years ago.


Neither Arabs or Somalis migrated and settled there in larger numbers due to how more isolated and distant it was from the trade wider trade networks

A lot of those areas would be either difficult to expand into due to geographical barriers or pointless because they had less economic value.

Neither Yemeni, Omani Arabs, or Somalis tried to take control of the islands of Socotra, the land is pretty useless from a historical point of view, for farmland or grazing other than fishing. There was also no precious metals or stones to be found like Sofala.

Madagascar was seen as unattractive place it was to distant and isolated from the major trade routes that connected the rest of the East Africa to Arabia. It also lacked immediate resource wealth.

 

[Zotran]

As for Harari they are a composite ethnicity made up of Gurage and Oromo that entered a Somali city and later named themselves after it.

Their language is a Gurage divergent. And up until recently they were conscious about their ethnic connections to the East Gurage.

Gurage is mentioned in Futuh as non Muslim peasants who were subjects of Ethiopians and they did not participate in the war or were warriors.
View attachment 348573


Some really convincing pieces of evidence and documentation is shared in this thread:
Along with how most of the Harar Emirs prior to intermarriage with Gurage Oromo in the early mid 1800s were Somalis with Somali genealogical traditions and used to intermarry with Bartirii and Geri most often.

I have seen many times people claiming Harar to be the fourth holiest city in Islam. Why is this the case?

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/gallery/2017/6/25/the-walled-city-of-harar-in-eastern-ethiopia-14

www.somalispot.com

Check wollo people, i read somewhere that they are probably descendants of the Harla.

 

[Idilinaa]

Check wollo people, i read somewhere that they are probably descendants of the Harla.

Harla are not really that much of a significant group above all.

Despite the fact that they didn't even live in Harar but people make mythologies and claim game around them

They lived between awash and upper shabelle rivers. In areas neighboring the Cisse.

 

[Aseer]

Harla are not really that much of a significant group above all.

Despite the fact that they didn't even live in Harar but people make mythologies and claim game around them

They lived between awash and upper shabelle rivers. In areas neighboring the Cisse.

Is harla Harti? Karanle? Or Ciiise? I keep hearing mixed reviews also if harla werent significant who was? The harla made up the elite forces of adalite forces.

 

[Idilinaa]

Is harla Harti? Karanle? Or Ciiise? I keep hearing mixed reviews also if harla werent significant who was? The harla made up the elite forces of adalite forces.

Where does the harti association come from? This is a clan that lives in the far east and there is no real tradition to speak of that connects them as neighbors. Harti is mentioned to be the only clan to arrive from the east in Futuh from Maydh, the rest are local.

And they are not Cisse as they trace descent to a seperate kombe darood lineage tree but they did go under political marriage alliance with them for protection ''sheegaad'', which you can als see in the awsa records the leaders as record as ''Isa Harla''

Harla was led by a leader from a seperate clan Zarba with a group of other sedentary clans, including sections of Geri like Gidayah. The Malasay was just a mix bag of individuals that bore the title , there was no 1 single clan that made up the elite force.

And Malasay was a Military title and Futuh plainly says it with no specific tribal attachement:

Which i am positively certain is the title Malaakh which means ''War Leader' among sedentary Somali communities.

 

[NidarNidar]

The Malagasy people that inhabit Madagascar are neither Arab or Swahili. They related to Austronesians and they settled there many thousands of years ago.


Neither Arabs or Somalis migrated and settled there in larger numbers due to how more isolated and distant it was from the trade wider trade networks

Just the Antemoro elites claim ancestry, particularly to Dir, not sure what subclan but it some of them do get T-L208.

"The Antemoro, claims descent from Somali Arab traders. European and Middle eastern paternal ancestry is also present. Antemoro villages are primarily clustered in the southeastern coastal area near Vohipeno and Manakara.[4] Society was traditionally divided into two broad categories: the mpanombily (or tompomenakely), who were nobles said to be descended from Somalis from the Dir clan."

 

[NidarNidar]

Where does the harti association come from? This is a clan that lives in the far east and there is no real tradition to speak of that connects them as neighbors. Harti is mentioned to be the only clan to arrive from the east in Futuh from Maydh, the rest are local.

And they are not Cisse as they trace descent to a seperate kombe darood lineage tree but they did go under political marriage alliance with them for protection ''sheegaad'', which you can als see in the awsa records the leaders as record as ''Isa Harla''

Harla was led by a leader from a seperate clan Zarba with a group of other sedentary clans, including sections of Geri like Gidayah. The Malasay was just a mix bag of individuals that bore the title , there was no 1 single clan that made up the elite force.

I was reading that the Malasay commanders were called Garads, some pseudo historians claiming them as fully non-Somali.

 

[Idilinaa]

Just the Antemoro elites claim ancestry, particularly to Dir, not sure what subclan but it some of them do get T-L208.

"The Antemoro, claims descent from Somali Arab traders. European and Middle eastern paternal ancestry is also present. Antemoro villages are primarily clustered in the southeastern coastal area near Vohipeno and Manakara.[4] Society was traditionally divided into two broad categories: the mpanombily (or tompomenakely), who were nobles said to be descended from Somalis from the Dir clan."

View attachment 348728

Well i'll be damned, i had no idea. That's pretty interesting.

 

[Idilinaa]

I was reading that the Malasay commanders were called Garads, some pseudo historians claiming them as fully non-Somali.

Garaad is literally the chief administrator of xeer law. Non-Somalis using xeer titles lmaao

 

[NidarNidar]

Well i'll be damned, i had no idea. That's pretty interesting.

It looks like they settled around the coast between the 14th -16th centuries, and intermingled with the locals, look at the text below to remind you of something? I wish we used this sort of soft power nowadays.

"The Antemoro soon developed a reputation as powerful sorcerers and astrologers, in large part owing to their monopoly on knowledge of writing, termed sorabe, which uses the Arabic script to transcribe the Malagasy language. Antemoro ombiasy (astrologer sages) migrated throughout the island, where they practiced their arts for local communities, served as advisers to kings, and even founded new principalities.

This Antemoro mobility and their creation of a network of powerful spiritual advisers across the island is credited with forcing an awareness among Malagasy of communities beyond their own and sparking a sense of a common Malagasy identity. The Antemoro kingdom was disbanded in the late 19th century following an uprising of the Antemoro commoners against the noble class."

Garaad is literally the chief administrator of xeer law. Non-Somalis using xeer titles lmaao

I'm flabbergasted these Ethiopians are editing the wikipedia and gate keeping it, they actively try to use Ethiopian sources, even the Futah doesn't mention Harari as ethnicity, but yet the cite it.

Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi was originally a Malassay serving under a Garad named Abun Adashe prior to becoming leader of the Adal Sultanate.[15][16] In the sixteenth century the main troops of Adal Sultanate's leader Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi were the Malassay during the invasion of Abyssinia.[17] A few notable Malassay were Amir Husain bin Abubaker the Gaturi and Alus the Hegano.[18][19] According to sixteenth century Adal writer Arab Faqīh, the Malassay participated in the conquest of Abyssinia at the decisive Battle of Shimbra Kure.[20] Emperor Lebna Dengel chronicles states the Malassay alongside Qecchin were the Muslim enemy that invaded.[21][22] According to Mohammed Hassen the Malassay under Ahmed consisted of the Harla and Harari ethnic groups.[23] Ethiopian historian Merid Wolde Aregay associated the Malassay with Semitic speakers.[24]

 

[Zotran]

Harla are not really that much of a significant group above all.

Despite the fact that they didn't even live in Harar but people make mythologies and claim game around them

They lived between awash and upper shabelle rivers. In areas neighboring the Cisse.

Where does the harti association come from? This is a clan that lives in the far east and there is no real tradition to speak of that connects them as neighbors. Harti is mentioned to be the only clan to arrive from the east in Futuh from Maydh, the rest are local.

And they are not Cisse as they trace descent to a seperate kombe darood lineage tree but they did go under political marriage alliance with them for protection ''sheegaad'', which you can als see in the awsa records the leaders as record as ''Isa Harla''

Harla was led by a leader from a seperate clan Zarba with a group of other sedentary clans, including sections of Geri like Gidayah. The Malasay was just a mix bag of individuals that bore the title , there was no 1 single clan that made up the elite force.

I think the really harla are the issas one cause everywhere issas live ( metahara, dir dhaba, Djibouti) you can find harla artefact or something sayings that they have been there.

 

[NidarNidar]

I think the really harla are the issas one cause everywhere issas live ( metahara, dir dhaba, Djibouti) you can find harla artefact or something sayings that they have been there.

You find similar structures all across North Somalia, it's what you would dub now "Somali". Many of us have previously discussed the word Somali being used the same as Bedouin for Arabs.