Sudan Conflict Updates: Army vs RSF

[Asaana]

I think it's clear now that the borders drawn up by European powers were incoherent and untenable; Africa has been saddled with the seeds of its own destruction.

What in the actual fu** were the British thinking by putting Nilotes, Nuba and native Darfurians with Arabs?

All of those groups have Nilotic ancestry? Sudan’s borders make a lot more sense than most of Africa since it’s the combination of two Sultanates that weren’t that different.

 

[Nilotic]

All of those groups have Nilotic ancestry? Sudan’s borders make a lot more sense than most of Africa since it’s the combination of two Sultanates that weren’t that different.

Yes, all those groups have substantial Nilotic ancestry; even Niger-Kordofanian speaking Nuba are genetically identical to Nilo-Saharan speaking Nuba; and they are all very genetically close with South Sudanese Nilotes.

The native Darfurians all have substantial Nilotic ancestry.

The Funj and the Fur were different; the two Sultanates contested for power and influence over the weaker kingdoms of Kordofan, but they didn't have common origins.

The origins of the Funj has not been settled, however, it's the various Nilo-Saharan/Nilotic tribes of Blue Nile that claim to be their descendants.

 

[Asaana]

Yes, all those groups have substantial Nilotic ancestry; even Niger-Kordofanian speaking Nuba are genetically identical to Nilo-Saharan speaking Nuba; and they are all very genetically close with South Sudanese Nilotes.

The native Darfurians all have substantial Nilotic ancestry.

The Funj and the Fur were different; the two Sultanates contested for power and influence over the weaker kingdoms of Kordofan, but they didn't have common origins.

The origins of the Funj has not been settled, however, it's the various Nilo-Saharan/Nilotic tribes of Blue Nile that claim to be their descendants.

I meant culturally the sultanates were relatively similar, and as you said they share Nilotic roots.

it’s more believable that those from Sennar are their descendants. After all that’s where many of the castles were built, and unlike Blue Nile there are many noble families that are Sennar natives whereas the Blue Nile elite are mainly Riverine settlers.

 

[Nilotic]

I meant culturally the sultanates were relatively similar, and as you said they share Nilotic roots.

Both Sultanates were Nilo-Saharan Muslim States and perhaps a case could be made that they could have been compatible.


I generally think that the racial divide between Nilo-Saharans on one side and Sudanese Arabs, Beja and Nubians on the other side is far too great for them to remain under one State.

There is far too much animus and indifference for such distinct groups to coexist.

it’s more believable that those from Sennar are their descendants. After all that’s where many of the castles were built, and unlike Blue Nile there are many noble families that are Sennar natives whereas the Blue Nile elite are mainly Riverine settlers.

Perhaps, but it could also mean that the Funj concentrated their buildings and structures there for other reasons.

We know that the Berta are the largest speakers of 'Funj languages', and that what is now Upper Nile State was Funj territory before the Dinka and Shilluk arrived; the Funj were disparagingly referred to as "pagans from the White Nile".

 

[Asaana]

Both Sultanates were Nilo-Saharan Muslim States and perhaps a case could be made that they could have been compatible.


I generally think that the racial divide between Nilo-Saharans on one side and Sudanese Arabs, Beja and Nubians on the other side is far too great for them to remain under one State.

There is far too much animus and indifference for such distinct groups to coexist.




Perhaps, but it could also mean that the Funj concentrated their buildings and structures there for other reasons.

We know that the Berta are the largest speakers of 'Funj languages', and that what is now Upper Nile State was Funj territory before the Dinka and Shilluk arrived; the Funj were disparagingly referred to as "pagans from the White Nile".

The Berta are from Sennar, and everyone in central Sudan was a pagan before Islam; only those in Northeast Sudan were Christian. All those reasons point to those from Sennar being the Funj leaders and not Blue Nile tribes, not to mention it was also known as the "Sennar Sultanate".

 

[Nilotic]

The Berta are from Sennar, and everyone in central Sudan was a pagan before Islam; only those in Northeast Sudan were Christian. All those reasons point to those from Sennar being the Funj leaders and not Blue Nile tribes, not to mention it was also known as the "Sennar Sultanate".

It really matters little where the Nilotic Berta ultimately come from, but Sennar really could be their place of origin; they are also distributed in Blue Nile. That entire stretch of territory used to be the exclusive domain of Nilo-Saharan populations.

The Funj were being called "pagans" even after they had converted to Islam; I think it's because they retained certain un-Islamic beliefs, customs and practices despite being officially Muslim.

 

[Asaana]

It really matters little where the Nilotic Berta ultimately come from, but Sennar really could be their place of origin; they are also distributed in Blue Nile. That entire stretch of territory used to be the exclusive domain of Nilo-Saharan populations.

The Funj were being called "pagans" even after they had converted to Islam; I think it's because they retained certain un-Islamic beliefs, customs and practices despite being officially Muslim.

Ja’alis were also distributed in Blue Nile (know a family of merchants that were there since the 16th century) so I guess Riverines wuz Funj

 

[Nilotic]

Ja’alis were also distributed in Blue Nile (know a family of merchants that were there since the 16th century) so I guess Riverines wuz Funj

The Berta have a greater concentration in Blue Nile now than they do in Sennar, even if they originated in Sennar.

Merchants tend to travel, so it doesn't surprise me that Ja'alin were in Blue Nile State during that period; there were even Arab subjects of the Funj in South Sudan's Upper Nile State during the Funj Sultanate.

 

[Asaana]

The Berta have a greater concentration in Blue Nile now than they do in Sennar, even if they originated in Sennar.

Merchants tend to travel, so it doesn't surprise me that Ja'alin were in Blue Nile State during that period; there were even Arab subjects of the Funj in South Sudan's Upper Nile State during the Funj Sultanate.

There’s no concrete evidence to back that. We don’t know how many stayed behind vs how many migrated to the Ethiopian border region in the 17th century to escape Arab slave raids. What we know for sure is that they’re from Sennar and culturally, linguistically, and to a lesser extent genetically Arabized unlike the other Nilotic tribes of Blue Nile state.

 

[Nilotic]

There’s no concrete evidence to back that. We don’t know how many stayed behind vs how many migrated to the Ethiopian border region in the 17th century to escape Arab slave raids. What we know for sure is that they’re from Sennar and culturally, linguistically, and to a lesser extent genetically Arabized unlike the other Nilotic tribes of Blue Nile state.

I don't dispute that they may have been from Sennar or that they initially went under a self-imposed process of Arabization when they converted to Islam; they even invented lineages that connect them with Peninsular Arabs.

There is no doubt that they are heavily Arabized (almost entirely in cultural terms) and have been so for a while now, but I am glad that they still see themselves as Funj.

It shouldn't be too hard to determine how many people identify as Funj (and speak Funj languages) in Blue Nile and Sennar; and presumably those areas that were more exposed to Arab slave raids and Arab domination were less likely to maintain their Funj identity and culture than those that were relatively safe on the border regions between Sudan and Ethiopia.

 

[Nilotic]

This discussion is a bit eclectic, but it's really about Dar rights; the various Nilo-Saharans revolt for very legitimate reasons, and land is the biggest; we're not talking about small plots of land here; we're talking about annexations that take thousands of km2 -- with the largest (Kafia Kingi) being larger than Lebanon.

Nimeiry even tried to annex an entire State (almost 40, 000 km2) from the South, and that was only stopped after we forcibly shut down that attempt.

 

[Nilotic]

Darfur joint force, RSF clash outside the capital of North Darfur - Sudan Tribune

July 3, 2023 (EL-OBEID) – A clash erupted on Monday between a group of armed movements, signatories to the Juba Peace Agreement, and the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) west of the capital of North Kordofan state. The joint force, consisting of the Sudan Liberation Movement led by Minni Minnawi, the...

sudantribune.com

Minni Minnawi should do everything he can to protect his people in Darfur and not get involved in clashes between the SAF and RSF outside his region, if he can help it.

 

[Asaana]

Darfur joint force, RSF clash outside the capital of North Darfur - Sudan Tribune

July 3, 2023 (EL-OBEID) – A clash erupted on Monday between a group of armed movements, signatories to the Juba Peace Agreement, and the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) west of the capital of North Kordofan state. The joint force, consisting of the Sudan Liberation Movement led by Minni Minnawi, the...

sudantribune.com

Minni Minnawi should do everything he can to protect his people in Darfur and not get involved in clashes between the SAF and RSF outside his region, if he can help it.

Minni Mouse ran to Germany when RSF killed the governor of West Darfur. Abandoning his people aside he couldn't care less as he sold them out for the Juba "Peace" Agreement.

His tiny rebel faction didn't get involved in clashes, they were provoked by RSF while getting fuel from White Nile state. They need El-Obeid even more than the military, as without it Darfur is effectively a double-landlocked territory.

 

[Nilotic]

Minni Mouse ran to Germany when RSF killed the governor of West Darfur. Abandoning his people aside he couldn't care less as he sold them out for the Juba "Peace" Agreement.

His tiny rebel faction didn't get involved in clashes, they were provoked by RSF while getting fuel from White Nile state. They need El-Obeid even more than the military, as without it Darfur is effectively a double-landlocked territory.

Minni did make the wise decision to remove his troops from Khartoum and decided to not get involved in a conflict between two sides of the same coin.

Other than the unfortunate cannon-fodder in the SAF, no Nilo-Saharans should allow themselves to be used any further; more than enough Nilo-Saharans have died in Darfur, Nuba Mountains and Blue Nile.

 

[Asaana]

Minni did make the wise decision to remove his troops from Khartoum and decided to not get involved in a conflict between two sides of the same coin.

Other than the unfortunate cannon-fodder in the SAF, no Nilo-Saharans should allow themselves to be used any further; more than enough Nilo-Saharans have died in Darfur, Nuba Mountains and Blue Nile.

Yeah because he can't risk losing any of his 12 troops.

SAF is quite diverse, but like any military those from poor regions are overrepresented. They have the most to lose from an RSF victory, as evident by the way RSF treat Nilo-Saharans in Khartoum (shooting their kneecaps for fun, cutting off their hands, and even gang raping a 14 year old girl in the middle of a main intersection).

 

[Asaana]

 

[Nilotic]

Yeah because he can't risk losing any of his 12 troops.

SAF is quite diverse, but like any military those from poor regions are overrepresented. They have the most to lose from an RSF victory, as evident by the way RSF treat Nilo-Saharans in Khartoum (shooting their kneecaps for fun, cutting off their hands, and even gangraping a 14 year old girl in the middle of a main intersection).

Well, the Riverine leaders did create the RSF and unleashed that evil onto thousands of Nilo-Saharan villages, so it's more a case of the SAF leadership having outsourced the dirty work to a genocidal, terrorist organisations that also shared its Arab supremacist ideology than some gulf between the two.

 

[Asaana]

Well, the Riverine leaders did create the RSF and unleashed that evil onto thousands of Nilo-Saharan villages, so it's more a case of the SAF leadership having outsourced the dirty work to a genocidal, terrorist organisations that also shared its Arab supremacist ideology than some gulf between the two.

Well what did they expect launching a rebellion while the military was occupied fighting southerners?

 

[Nilotic]

Well what did they expect launching a rebellion while the military was occupied fighting southerners?

They likely expected that Khartoum would negotiate and treat them with an altogether different dispensation, in light of their long service to Khartoum; and the expectation that Khartoum would not be so eager to have yet another another front, and another prolonged conflict.

The initial cause of the conflict was centred around the issue of nomadic Arab encroachments on non-Arab lands; concessions on that issue would likely have satisfied the overwhelming majority of the native Darfurians.

 

[Asaana]

They likely expected that Khartoum would negotiate and treat them with an altogether different dispensation, in light of their long service to Khartoum; and the expectation that Khartoum would not be so eager to have yet another another front, and another prolonged conflict.

The initial cause of the conflict was centred around the issue of nomadic Arab encroachments on non-Arab lands; concessions on that issue would likely have satisfied the overwhelming majority of the native Darfurians.

JEM literally said that Sudan cannot be reformed peacefully so that theory doesn't stand.

There wasn't a single cause for the conflict, land and water disputes were an issue for decades but not why JEM declared war. Makes sense since the Zaghawa hold the most useless land in Sudan - very dry with not a single permanent river. Their goal was to overthrow the government and dominate Khartoum just like they dominate Chad under the guise of equality. Ironically enough they're just as violent to the Fur as the Arabs. One could say they're basically a weak dumb version of Arabs.