Sultan Ali ibn Yusuf of Mogadishu mentioned by Ibn Hajar al Asqalani

[Laser]

Berbers are Somalis and Bejas (and related Cushites that were either absorbed by Beja or Nubians later but were adjacent to Bejas in the Eastern Desert). Habashis were not Barbari, and Arabs made that discernment clear. So when you think of Barbar, it could never have been a Habash, only people who lived in the eastern part of modern Sudan and Egypt and throughout the Somali peninsula. Desertic Cushites that had much resemblance:
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Ibn Battuta made it clear that the land of Barbars was from Zeila and down to what today is southern Somalia, which we know has historically been Somali lands:
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Ibn Sa'id also said the same thing, referring to the entire Somali-inhabited stretches of the broader peninsula as Barbar with Zanj south of it.

To reiterate, the term Barbar was applied to Northeast Africans south of Egyptians living off the western Red Sea where Bejas live today, with Somalis also considered the same broader group designated under that name for apparent "racial," economic, and anthropological similarities. The Bejas were trade masters of the eastern coast, facilitating pathways for economic forces of that region while enriching themselves through mining as additional sources of wealth accumulation. We did the same for our coast, minus the mining. I can elaborate on this further, but it will take up too much space. The central point is that to outsiders, we probably seemed very similar, maybe different sub-groups of the broader population. Their intuition proved correct for complex reasons.

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Berberization of Northwest Africa happened later and was popularized by figures such as Ibn Khaldun, appropriating a term used for northeast Africans for many centuries.
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Also, the Barbar term did not mean Barbarian as we see the ancient Romans called the Germanic tribes as a term for uncivilized peoples. It was a specific region and people and only meant for Cushites such as Beja and Somalis:

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It might be a coincidence, but we have the word 'barbar' in Somali that means young man, something uncovered that confirmed what a source had told Shimbris an earlier time:
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In the pov of arabs, it's really obvious that the term barbar only referred to somalis, an ottoman linguist Butrus al-Bustani who made a poem reciting all the definition of barbar in arabic says the barbars are the people who inhabit the maghreb and another tribe of people who live in between Al Habash and Al Zanj (beja don't live between them, somalis do), that's repeated by majority of medieval arabic sources.

Ibn sa'id aswell when he talks about the barbars say they're the same berbers who Imr'a Al Qays (pre islamic arabic poet) spoke about.
Can't see the beja correlation when it comes to arabic sources as it was always about somalis (post and pre-islamic), i can see it tho when you're talking about more ancient sources (like punt related stuff, periplus etc...).

 

[Northern Swordsman]

What evidence is there for the term barbar=somali at the time?

The Barbar live between the Habash (Ethiopians) and the Zanj (Kenyans)

Barbara (pl. of Barbar) = somali people

Maqdishi = somali language

 

[Riftvalley]

In the pov of arabs, it's really obvious that the term barbar only referred to somalis, an ottoman linguist Butrus al-Bustani who made a poem reciting all the definition of barbar in arabic says the barbars are the people who inhabit the maghreb and another tribe of people who live in between Al Habash and Al Zanj (beja don't live between them, somalis do), that's repeated by majority of medieval arabic sources.View attachment 318167
Ibn sa'id aswell when he talks about the barbars say they're the same berbers who Imr'a Al Qays (pre islamic arabic poet) spoke about.
Can't see the beja correlation when it comes to arabic sources as it was always about somalis (post and pre-islamic), i can see it tho when you're talking about more ancient sources (like punt related stuff, periplus etc...).

Barbar mainly referred to Somalis but there are Arab sources talking about Barbara people carrying out castration and describing how they lived.They were talking about Afars.

 

[The alchemist]

In the pov of arabs, it's really obvious that the term barbar only referred to somalis, an ottoman linguist Butrus al-Bustani who made a poem reciting all the definition of barbar in arabic says the barbars are the people who inhabit the maghreb and another tribe of people who live in between Al Habash and Al Zanj (beja don't live between them, somalis do), that's repeated by majority of medieval arabic sources.View attachment 318167
Ibn sa'id aswell when he talks about the barbars say they're the same berbers who Imr'a Al Qays (pre islamic arabic poet) spoke about.
Can't see the beja correlation when it comes to arabic sources as it was always about somalis (post and pre-islamic), i can see it tho when you're talking about more ancient sources (like punt related stuff, periplus etc...).

I am familiar with those sources. I posted something similar, showing that it is not a contradiction. All I am shedding light upon is the broader history of that term.

It is also a designation that have pre-Islamic roots that the Arabs appropriated from the region across the Red Sea itself:

Here it describes the Barbar in a southern Egypt and Sudanic context by a 7th-century Arab:

Again, sometimes Barbars are described as separate from Beja even within the Sudanese context. The reason was that these were other Cushites later absorbed by Beja, who had relationships with the Beja. I will go into this another time. However, modern Bejas are the descendants of those various groups that lived in the broader same region, plus Nubians also absorbing a minor portion.

We have linguistic evidence showing that Barbars spoke a different Cushitic language and was designated separately from Blemmeys. But I call all those various groups Beja today since they would homogenize the region. Either way, the region, as I claimed, is not only in the Somali context. That is quite apparent. It included people related to Somalis with similar broad profiles as Somalis in Southern Egypt and Eastern Sudan.

Here is a linguistic evidence showin in names of archeological artifacts, highlighting that lingusitic differentiation took place during the Blemmyan period (the paper itself calls the other language 'barbarian', although I have no idea why):

It claims that Khalif Uthman got Jiziya from Barbars in 656, particularly during their encounter with Nubia. That is a well-attested historical knowledge without any room to mistake that with Somalis:

When it was talking about Barbar south of Egypt in Sudan -- it meant the one or several variations of ancestors of Beja (again, to make this clear, I use Bejas since they are the ones inhabiting that stretch of land, not referring to internal nuances and variation that did exist, of which I have many times shed light upon and will so in the future, inshallah). When it was Barbars talking about the Somali peninsula -- it was exclusively Somali. It's that easy - those two are not conflatable since we're talking about two separate regions.

My take was a broad historical recalling of the term because of its age and where and to whom it applied. When it talks about Barbar from Zeila, no one would assume it means a people of Southern Egypt or the broader eastern Desert, despite them being historically referred to as Barbar, especially in earlier times, by Arabs, Greco-Romans, and Egyptians (it gets really old here since it was purportedly mentioned in ancient hieroglyphics).

 

[awsaleban667]

based on his reputation in the Islamic world and the reach of his coinage, his reign was said to be prosperous, which indicates longevity, hence the timelines match and wouldn’t be far-fetched for them to have been related through his father.

We should be cautious though, as numismatically speaking the dynasty is not complete and more coins and manuscript references could be discovered in the future that would shed a better light on their succession.

Ali had the most coins found nearly 6,000 iirc

 

[Laser]

It is also a designation that have pre-Islamic roots that the Arabs appropriated from the region across the Red Sea itself:

Actually the barbaria market was named as a such because barbar merchants used to visit the place frequently so it was named suq al barbar by Ka'ab Al Absi (ruler of Egypt), it's not a pre islamic mention because muslim named the market Barbar. (So it really could've been anyone from Maghreb berbers to north-east berbers).

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Here it describes the Barbar in a southern Egypt and Sudanic context by a 7th-century Arab:

Southern Egypt includes somalia, Sudan just means black (includes somalis as they were known as Black Barbars). This still doesn't exclude somalis, i still can't see how the term barbar was a larger umbrella term for all cushitics of north- east africa (talking about arabic sources).

It claims that Khalif Uthman got Jiziya from Barbars in 656, particularly during their encounter with Nubia. That is a well-attested historical knowledge without any room to mistake that with Somalis:

Whoever this scholar is he definitely have an agenda, Uthman ibn affan was taking the tribute from Northern africans in this context, not North east africans.
And there's another narration where it says "Zoroastrians of barbar" "مجوس البربر".

When it was talking about Barbar south of Egypt in Sudan -- it meant the one or several variations of ancestors of Beja (again, to make this clear, I use Bejas since they are the ones inhabiting that stretch of land, not referring to internal nuances and variation that did exist, of which I have many times shed light upon and will so in the future, inshallah). When it was Barbars talking about the Somali peninsula -- it was exclusively Somali. It's that easy - those two are not conflatable since we're talking about two separate regions.

I get your point but still i can't see how barbar in arabic sources can refer to any other population than somalis.

 

[The alchemist]

Actually the barbaria market was named as a such because barbar merchants used to visit the place frequently so it was named suq al barbar by Ka'ab Al Absi (ruler of Egypt), it's not a pre islamic mention because muslim named the market Barbar. (So it really could've been anyone from Maghreb berbers to north-east berbers).

I think it has more to do with Cushitic immigration from southern Egypt since considerable people of those backgrounds lived further north into Egypt back in the day until they later were absorbed and/or displaced. We have historical proof of this happening since the Blemmyan days in the first centuries, of them settling deep into Egyptian lands, and naturally through such intimate contact assimilating over time.

Southern Egypt includes somalia, Sudan just means black (includes somalis as they were known as Black Barbars). This still doesn't exclude somalis, i still can't see how the term barbar was a larger umbrella term for all cushitics of north- east africa (talking about arabic sources).

I'm not excluding everything. I deliberately stated I included the entire history, which I am consistent with. Barbars referred to in the early text I showed were the region adjacent to Egypt, not the Somali peninsula only. When I say "Sudan," I mean modern Sudan since a broad-encompassing Sub-Saharan term is not what I am referring to.

The Khalif Uthman had Jiziya with these people as the consequence of the expansion of Islam to the Nile Valley, coinciding around the time of the encounter with Nubians and the historical contracts made between the Christians and Muslims - with Barbars living in Egypt, clearly had to pay Jiziya to the Muslims.

I get your point but still i can't see how barbar in arabic sources can refer to any other population than somalis.

The word itself was applied to the region before the Arabs even used it for northeast Africans. That is established in written texts describing the Eastern Desert dwellers by Greco-Romans and Egyptians. What I am doing is merely to shed light on this reality so as to give context to a very relevant historical use of the term. Somalis have historically been called the same. There is no contention here.

The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea clearly states that the land immediately beyond Berenice (it is somewhat wrong since Berenice was Cushite port) was Barbaroi land:

And in similar respects, the texts refer to Somalis as Barbaroi as well. Because of the reasons I told you. These were very similar people to outsiders. Cushitic desert dwelling trading agro-pastoral people that dressed roughly the same, sounded similar, with same phenotype, etc. = Barbar.

 

[The alchemist]

@Garaad diinle give your two cents.

 

[Laser]

I'm not excluding everything. I deliberately stated I included the entire history, which I am consistent with. Barbars referred to in the early text I showed were the region adjacent to Egypt, not the Somali peninsula specifically. When I say "Sudan," I mean modern Sudan since a broad-encompassing Sub-Saharan term is not what I am referring to.

I'm not talking about your definition of sudan but what al waqidi meant by sudan (he meant black people including somalis) i will share the primary source if i get it again in'sha'allah.

Other than that, i don't disagree with what you've presented walal.
I'm just saying that barbar in arabic sources referred to none but somalis.

 

[The alchemist]

I'm not talking about your definition of sudan but what al waqidi meant by sudan (he meant black people including somalis) i will share the primary source if i get it again in'sha'allah.

Other than that, i don't disagree with what you've presented walal.
I'm just saying that barbar in arabic sources referred to none but somalis.

We don't really agree as your intention behind discussing this was because of your exclusion of the relevant history of how that term was applied beyond Somalis even in Arabic sources. With precision, I also wrote that there is no confusion about how that term is used because the Somali peninsula and modern Beja lands are completely discernable in geographical matters, especially with the people who traveled.

The Sudanic argument is an already futile attempt. Because we are given relevant historical context and time which ties to the Muslim's relationship with modern Sudan and Barbars living in Southern Egypt. For you to counter this is to give credence by way of evidence to show how Somalis paid Jiziya to Muslims in 656, proving how Muslims had regional control over our lands. This never took place as far as I am aware, nor is there any evidence for this exact point. You're the one making fantastical consequences by avoiding Occam's Razor. If you go that route, then you are fabricating history instead of conceding to established points and rational interpretations of history. You agree with everything but the Arab part, but clearly, the Jiziya matters defeat this.

Furthermore, we have Berber, a city in Sudan that was inhabited historically by the Beja people as well. It used to be a caravan destination for further movement, and for Hajj as well.

 

[Laser]

We don't really agree as your intention behind discussing this was because of your exclusion of the relevant history of how that term was applied beyond Somalis even in Arabic sources. With precision, I also wrote that there is no confusion about how that term is used because the Somali peninsula and modern Beja lands are completely discernable in geographical matters, especially with the people who traveled.

You didn't explain how barbar was applied beyond somalis in arabic sources, i didn't disagree with other greek type sources etc...

The Sudanic argument is an already futile attempt. Because we are given relevant historical context and time which ties to the Muslim's relationship with modern Sudan and Barbars living in Southern Egypt. For you to counter this is to give credence by way of evidence to show how Somalis paid Jiziya to Muslims in 656, proving how Muslims had regional control over our lands.

Except that I've never actually said that somalis paid the tribute, have you read what I've previously said?
I've said Uthman ibn affan was taking the tribute from barbars of North africa Which's actually true

Whoever this scholar is he definitely have an agenda, Uthman ibn affan was taking the tribute from Northern africans in this context, not North east africans.

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Your source claims that it shouldn't be anything but a region simply because al baladhuri mentions 2 toponyms prior to barbar?

Here's the actual arabic source, if you ask any arabic speaker you Will know it can refer to people rather than strictly a region as your source said walal.

البربر could refer to a population and a region, in this context it obviously is referring to the northern africans Uthman r.a was taking tribute from.

You're the one making fantastical consequences by avoiding Occam's Razor. If you go that route, then you are fabricating history instead of conceding to established points and rational interpretations of history.

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Furthermore, we have Berber, a city in Sudan that was inhabited historically by the Beja people as well. It used to be a caravan destination for further movement, and for Hajj as well.

This would proof that the word was used locally (there's variations of how the city was named from "barbar" merchants coming there to A queen with that name controlling the city).
But this doesn't really address my previous point of how arabs referred to somalis when they speak about barbars (I'm excluding northern africans).

 

[The alchemist]

You didn't explain how barbar was applied beyond somalis in arabic sources, i didn't disagree with other greek type sources etc...

Except that I've never actually said that somalis paid the tribute, have you read what I've previously said?
I've said Uthman ibn affan was taking the tribute from barbars of North africa Which's actually true

View attachment 318282View attachment 318283

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Your source claims that it shouldn't be anything but a region simply because al baladhuri mentions 2 toponyms prior to barbar?
View attachment 318287
Here's the actual arabic source, if you ask any arabic speaker you Will know it can refer to people rather than strictly a region as your source said walal.
View attachment 318289
البربر could refer to a population and a region, in this context it obviously is referring to the northern africans Uthman r.a was taking tribute from.

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This would proof that the word was used locally (there's variations of how the city was named from "barbar" merchants coming there to A queen with that name controlling the city).
But this doesn't really address my previous point of how arabs referred to somalis when they speak about barbars (I'm excluding northern africans).

You're being shifty with the conversation. I never said Arabs did not refer to Somalis as Barbar, I said they did -- explicitly. I posted evidence of them doing so and affirmed they only meant Somali regarding anything pertaining to the Somali peninsula... But I said the term had a broader context mentioned through several sources now more north of it by older literature while negating the notion that it can be confused for any random Horn of African since Habash was not included in this designation. This is a fact.

Now, I reflect back on when you said you did not disagree with me. Now I assume to believe you don't. The issue here comes with why you have a juvenile impulse to try to make an impossible case when there was none. The Arabs appropriated the term that is historically were indeed used for the people of the Eastern Desert and the Somali pensinula. But without the Arabs, the region was called Berber since the time of the Egyptians and Greco-Romans as I proved with evidence, who used it for the inhabitants I talked about north of us (excluding Habash). Arabs were latecomers, and they were people who used to take writings from other people. This is another fact.

The point of Jiziya, if your source is correct, I will grant you that one because unlike you I stick to the facts presented in front of me. However, I will say the source is to blame because I go off what I read, not make random claims. You're the one pretending the term Barbar did not exist in northeast Africa beyond Somalis and want to be obtuse by probably saying "I never said that. I only mean when it comes to Arabs." -- knowing full well that term existed before the Arab writings you reference... I also showed you an actual historical place in Sudan called Berber and you want to explain that away. It seems you're in the business of pushing your views of limiting the term instead of acknowledging its proper historical context otherwise why even move the goalpost when responding initially as if it is a substantial claim or a claim that negated anything I said?

We've been going in circles because you did not like the accurate framing I originally made and wanted to split hairs and then shift the conversation to make a term exclusive to Somalis. Again, it's a futile attempt because you're arguing against history.

 

[Laser]

You're being shifty with the conversation. I never said Arabs did not refer to Somalis as Barbar, I said they did -- explicitly. I posted evidence of them doing so and affirmed they only meant Somali regarding anything pertaining to the Somali peninsula... But I said the term had a broader context mentioned through several sources now more north of it by older literature while negating the notion that it can be confused for any random Horn of African since Habash was not included in this designation. This is a fact.

Now, I reflect back on when you said you did not disagree with me. Now I assume to believe you don't. The issue here comes with why you have a juvenile impulse to try to make an impossible case when there was none. The Arabs appropriated the term that is historically were indeed used for the people of the Eastern Desert and the Somali pensinula. But without the Arabs, the region was called Berber since the time of the Egyptians and Greco-Romans as I proved with evidence, who used it for the inhabitants I talked about north of us (excluding Habash). Arabs were latecomers, and they were people who used to take writings from other people. This is another fact.

The point of Jiziya, if your source is correct, I will grant you that one because unlike you I stick to the facts presented in front of me. However, I will say the source is to blame because I go off what I read, not make random claims. You're the one pretending the term Barbar did not exist in northeast Africa beyond Somalis and want to be obtuse by probably saying "I never said that. I only mean when it comes to Arabs." -- knowing full well that term existed before the Arab writings you reference... I also showed you an actual historical place in Sudan called Berber and you want to explain that away. It seems you're in the business of pushing your views of limiting the term instead of acknowledging its proper historical context otherwise why even move the goalpost when responding initially as if it is a substantial claim or a claim that negated anything I said?

We've been going in circles because you did not like the accurate framing I originally made and wanted to split hairs and then shift the conversation to make a term exclusive to Somalis. Again, it's a futile attempt because you're arguing against history.

Haye bro, it seems like you're right ig

 

[Riftvalley]

The scholars Al Asqalani and Imam ADahabi themselves counted scholars from the East African coast as amongst their teachers:

The Banadir Jurist and Scholar Shaykh Muhammad al-Maqdishawi (648/1250-718/1318) - Banadirwiki

Al-Dhahabī mentions in his Greater Dictionary of Teachers 'Mu‘jam al-Shuyūkh al-Kabīr' one of his teachers in Hadith from Mogadishu by the name of Muhammad b. ‘Alī b. Abī Bakr, the Great Jurist, the scholar, Shams al-Dīn, al-Tamīmī, al-Maqdishāwī (الْمَقْدِشَاوِيُّ) al-Shāfi‘ī...

banadirwiki.com

Here is the historian and scholar Al Barzali reflecting on the passing of Sheikh Al Muqdishawi:

“691 - On the night of Thursday the twenty-fourth of Dhul-Qi’dah (5), the Sheikh, the jurist, the imam, the righteous, Shams al-Din, Abu Abdullah, Muhammad bin Ali bin Abi Bakr bin Ali bin al-Hasan bin Ahmed bin Yusuf bin Asad al-Tamimi al-Jawhari (10), died. Al-Kalli's father, Al-Shafi'i, prayed over him on Thursday afternoon at the Damascus Mosque, and he was buried in the Bani Al-Shirji cemetery in Bab Al-Saghir (6). His birth was on Wednesday the twenty-eighth of the month of Rajab (7) in the year six hundred and forty-eight (1250AD) in the city of Shiraz (in Iran), seven days between him and Shiraz.

His father was from the city of Kilwa, an island in the sea that belonged to the Zanj, and he was a merchant who memorized the Qur’an. As for him, he was a good old man who regularly prayed at the Damascus Mosque. He traveled in his youth to Kash (4) and Hormuz (3), then to Dhofar (in Yemen) and Aden, and entered the Hijaz (1), and performed Hajj more than once (and Jawwar) (and Jawwar). He toured the Hijaz, then returned to Aden, then traveled to Al-Sumnat (2) in India.

He heard about it from the hadith scholar Kamal al-Din Ahmad ibn al-Dakhamisi (8). He narrated it to us on his authority, then he traveled to Maqdashuh, a city on the sea coast, and resided there for a period, then to Hormuz (3) and Kash (4), and entered Basra and resided there for a period, then entered Baghdad and studied there, then returned to Basra, then headed. From there he spent with the Arabs (in) the wilderness, arriving in Hama (9), and entering Damascus in the year six hundred and eighty-eight (1289AD), and he resided in the Bathari school for a long period as a jurist, then he became a teaching assistant there in Al-Badriya (Al-Bathari School), and he was keen on recitation. The testimony is related to that, and his death occurred in the repetition home of the aforementioned school”.

 

[Yami]

Berber languages should be renamed to Amazigh and Cushitic languages to Berber