The Ajuraan- a view from the oral tradition

[James Dahl]

No it's not better to use common sense because common sense isn't the same thing as information. It's guessing

Go do your own fucking homework. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

It isn't no, I provided my evidence for my assertion and you haven't for yours.

This isn't about you or me or who is right and who is wrong and what narrative of history is more popular, this is about the truth. History is often the domain of hagiographers and national glorifiers and all manner of charlatans but I am interested in the truth and the facts.

The truth is that we don't know what clan sailed with the Ottomans to retake Mombasa. Maybe there's information in the Ottoman archives, but you and I certainly don't know. Saying it was the Ajuuraan because of this assumption or that assumption we are doing history a disservice. The same claim could be made of any clan and it would have just as much evidence behind it, that being no evidence at all.

History is not about grand narratives, that is what fireside stories are about. History is about facts and sources and evidence. Sometimes those facts are unflattering or unwelcome but it is important for a historian to be a person of facts and not fantasies.

 

[Grant]

Ajuuraan
Aqiil
Aadan
Ibrahiim "Balcadde"
Calaama "Baqoon"
Balcad
Edimoole
Kaaley
Faas
Siroole
Xarmalle
Samaale

I'm still curious about Ajuraan. How many generations from Ajuraan to Imam Dayle? Does anyone know what Balcad did to become a saint?

 

[James Dahl]

I'm still curious about Ajuraan. How many generations from Ajuraan to Imam Dayle? Does anyone know what Balcad did to become a saint?

1: Imaam Dayle
2: Adke "Gareen"
3: Kasaanle
4: Udke
5: Kunle
6: Waalmuge
7: Ajuuraan

About 200 years from Ajuuraan to the first Gareen Imam, Imam Dayle

Dayle probably lived around the year 1200 with Ajuuraan living around the year 1000. Balcad settled north of Mogadishu then around the year 850 or so, during the Abbasid period of Mogadishu's history.

As for when and how Balcad became a saint, there is no published information available. Perhaps there is a scroll in a Qadi's private library somewhere in the Juba valley

 

[Grant]

1: Imaam Dayle
2: Adke "Gareen"
3: Kasaanle
4: Udke
5: Kunle
6: Waalmuge
7: Ajuuraan

About 200 years from Ajuuraan to the first Gareen Imam, Imam Dayle

Dayle probably lived around the year 1200 with Ajuuraan living around the year 1000. Balcad settled north of Mogadishu then around the year 850 or so, during the Abbasid period of Mogadishu's history.

As for when and how Balcad became a saint, there is no published information available. Perhaps there is a scroll in a Qadi's private library somewhere in the Juba valley

"Also pedantic point but Ajuuraan are not Hawiye nor a Hawiye confederation. This is revisionist history, the Ajuuraan were an absolute monarchy and ruled over a subset of the Gorgaate Hawiye clan, which at the time was the smaller and weaker branch and the Karanle Hawiye were the strong, senior branch, and lived near Harar. Gorgaate Hawiye travelled with Ajuuraan down the Shabelle river when the Ajuuraan kingdom was founded."

The Gareen kingdom was at Kelafo and only ruled a subset of the Gorgaate Hawiyye. Can you tell when they moved down the Shabelli? Doesn't sound like that would have been Dayle.

 

[Disappointed]

Insha Allah you will be a very successful Somali historian. We need people like you that will protect our history from foreigners. The Chinese don't allow whites to tell them their history and neither should we.

They're foreigners and the only way they can discredit our beautiful history is by speaking out of their ass in public forums, that's about it. I'll one day going to find and contribute Somali history in Hargeisa museum and I heard a museum is bring built in Xamar. I will also visit that and I'll meet with Somali historians and researchers. I'm not like these fools.

 

[Factz]

Insha Allah you will be a very successful Somali historian. We need people like you that will protect our history from foreigners. The Chinese don't allow whites to tell them their history and neither should we.

My dream is not to be a historian lol. I said I will fund and support the Somali historians and researchers. So I will be contributing Somali history basically.

 

[Disappointed]

lol same here. I also want to fund Somali historians and archaeologists.

My dream is not to be a historian lol. I said I will fund and support the Somali historians and researchers. So I will be contributing Somali history basically.

 

[MARAQ DIGAAG]

lol same here. I also want to fund Somali historians and archaeologists.

Abti I’m a historian of Somali heritage and I have world remit and ping it payment systems . Fadlan fund the cause .

 

[Lord Flacko]

No it's not better to use common sense because common sense isn't the same thing as information. It's guessing

It isn't no, I provided my evidence for my assertion and you haven't for yours.

This isn't about you or me or who is right and who is wrong and what narrative of history is more popular, this is about the truth. History is often the domain of hagiographers and national glorifiers and all manner of charlatans but I am interested in the truth and the facts.

The truth is that we don't know what clan sailed with the Ottomans to retake Mombasa. Maybe there's information in the Ottoman archives, but you and I certainly don't know. Saying it was the Ajuuraan because of this assumption or that assumption we are doing history a disservice. The same claim could be made of any clan and it would have just as much evidence behind it, that being no evidence at all.

History is not about grand narratives, that is what fireside stories are about. History is about facts and sources and evidence. Sometimes those facts are unflattering or unwelcome but it is important for a historian to be a person of facts and not fantasies.

I provided a direct first hand source. I never made any assertion beyond what Jeronimo Osorio himself wrote. You, then in response to my post, asked me to disprove your statement. That's not how it works and you know it.



Since a moderator deleted my posts, I'll reiterate myself in a short manner:

You're wrong.

This is a first hand account of Cugna's journey, translated in the 17th century (ish) from Latin to English.

F = S
Brava = Barawe
etc etc

 

[Disappointed]

Abti I’m a historian of Somali heritage and I have world remit and ping it payment systems . Fadlan fund the cause .

 

[James Dahl]

"Also pedantic point but Ajuuraan are not Hawiye nor a Hawiye confederation. This is revisionist history, the Ajuuraan were an absolute monarchy and ruled over a subset of the Gorgaate Hawiye clan, which at the time was the smaller and weaker branch and the Karanle Hawiye were the strong, senior branch, and lived near Harar. Gorgaate Hawiye travelled with Ajuuraan down the Shabelle river when the Ajuuraan kingdom was founded."

The Gareen kingdom was at Kelafo and only ruled a subset of the Gorgaate Hawiyye. Can you tell when they moved down the Shabelli? Doesn't sound like that would have been Dayle.

The Ajuuraan did not travel down the Shabelle, the Gorgaate Hawiye did. Ajuuraan was from the Berbera area originally and the mostly likely route they would have taken south would have been either along the coast or through the Hawd, probably more than a thousand years ago.

@Lord Flacko your citations say that the Portuguese burned Baraawe, decided not to attack Mogadishu, and then continued onwards to Socotra, which is what I said earlier. You then cite this and say this proves I am wrong, for unspecified reasons, despite confirming everything I said. I believe at this point this isn't even about the facts, you just want to argue because you don't like the conclusions.

The part of this that bothers me is you assume I am pro-Portuguese, or anti-Somali, for stating this. This is a nonsensical conclusion. History is not about national glorification, or about pride, it's about facts. This is not a partisan conflict between Portugal and the Somali nation being refought on the internet 500 years later. Sometimes your country or your nation or your city is on the losing end. My nation has been on the losing end of most wars, and you don't see me trying to rewrite Danish history to say the Kalmar Union never dissolved and the Swedes actually lost. Yet this is what you and @Factz want to do, refight wars on the battlefield of internet forums to have more pleasing conclusions by rewriting history to be more pleasing and give you more pride. This is a toxic activity not just to history but to yourselves, look how you reacted to me simply stating the historical facts? You reacted as if I were attacking you personally.

 

[Lord Flacko]

@James Dahl

I have never stated anything untrue. I believe you've been confusing many different sentiments here.

I'll repeat myself.

I never made any assertion beyond what Jeronimo Osorio himself wrote. You, then in response to my post, asked me to disprove your statement. That's not how it works and you know it.

You're wrong for putting the burden of proof on me. And now you're again wrong for assuming that I was trying to create some false narrative, as well as painting me as a dishonest and arrogant person.


Even my grandfather could tell me the Portuguese had rule over Barawe after plundering it, with many Portuguese even settling down there. I never said anything to the contrary, nor do I care enough to lie about it.

 

[James Dahl]

@James Dahl

I have never stated anything untrue. I believe you've been confusing many different sentiments here.

I'll repeat myself.


You're wrong for putting the burden of proof on me. And now you're again wrong for assuming that I was trying to create some false narrative, as well as painting me as a dishonest and arrogant person.


Even my grandfather could tell me the Portuguese had rule over Barawe after plundering it, with many Portuguese even settling down there. I never said anything to the contrary, nor do I care enough to lie about it.

This is what Factz is saying though, that the Portuguese NEVER ruled Baraawe and the Ajuuraan defeated the Portuguese invasion of Baraawe, you jumped into the thread to defend him in this.

 

[Lord Flacko]

This is what Factz is saying though, that the Portuguese NEVER ruled Baraawe and the Ajuuraan defeated the Portuguese invasion of Baraawe, you jumped into the thread to defend him in this.

I am not Factz, and you're now just assuming my intentions. I posted the same clippings that you just said agreed with you, thereby defending what you said, yet two minutes later they also defended Factz at the same time? Funny how that works.

 

[James Dahl]

I am not Factz, and you're now just assuming my intentions. I posted the same clippings that you just said agreed with you, thereby defending what you said, yet two minutes later they also defended Factz at the same time? Funny how that works.

As you mentioned your posts were deleted so I can't reference them but I'm pretty sure you had very strong words for me about how I was wrong about everything I was saying.

 

[Grant]

The Gareen kingdom was at Kelafo and only ruled a subset of the Gorgaate Hawiyye. Can you tell when they moved down the Shabelli? Doesn't sound like that would have been Dayle.

You said the Gorgaate Hawiyye moved down the Shabelli when the Ajuraan state was formed. My question was if you could tell when and where that was in the Ajuraan abtirsi. The Gareen kingdom was up the Shabelle at Kelafo, so the date of the move is significant. If the Gareen didn't come down the Shabelle, how did they get from Kelafo to the middle Shabelli/Merka area?

 

[James Dahl]

I'm pretty sure the Ajuuraan were centered closer to the coast, the Imam lived near Mareeg, not Qalaafo. Ceel Cawl, where the last Imam was killed, is close to the coast.

 

[Grant]

Yes, but that was later. There seem to have been multiple capitals and the major Ajuraan irrigation efforts were in the middle Shabelli. Merka and Afgoye are also named with respect to primae noctis.. My question was if you could tell when the Gareen (or Gorgaate Hawiyye) moved south from Qalaafo.

 

[Grant]

lol same here. I also want to fund Somali historians and archaeologists.

Sada Mire http://www.somaliheritage.org/

Mohammed Haji Mukhtar
Ali Abdirahman Hersi
Abdurahman M. Abdullahi (Baadiyow)

All Somali professionals, all widely respected among international scholars, all derided whenever I post them here. Somalis don't respect even their own. If he or she is not from your clan he or she is obviously lying.

 

[Grant]

Yes, but that was later. There seem to have been multiple capitals and the major Ajuraan irrigation efforts were in the middle Shabelli. Merka and Afgoye are also named with respect to primae noctis.. My question was if you could tell when the Gareen (or Gorgaate Hawiyye) moved south from Qalaafo.

Here is Dr Hersi:



"""

sources of the trade items."

The movement seems to have been inland first, and later back towards the coast. The date I M Lewis gives for the Ajuraan in the middle Shabelli is 15th century.