The Ajuraan- a view from the oral tradition

[James Dahl]

Factz quotes heavily from that essay as I noticed above so he's already read it.

By 1680 the Ajuuraan were a spent force, I doubt they were the ones sailing with the Ottomans to retake Mombasa and there are no sources to back up such an assertion. The primary documents mention only that Somali sailors took part, not what clan or where they were from. As usual, such an assertion comes from the imagination of the author.

 

[Grant]

Factz quotes heavily from that essay as I noticed above so he's already read it.

By 1680 the Ajuuraan were a spent force, I doubt they were the ones sailing with the Ottomans to retake Mombasa and there are no sources to back up such an assertion. The primary documents mention only that Somali sailors took part, not what clan or where they were from. As usual, such an assertion comes from the imagination of the author.

Says a lot about how well he reads.

 

[Factz]

Factz quotes heavily from that essay as I noticed above so he's already read it.

By 1680 the Ajuuraan were a spent force, I doubt they were the ones sailing with the Ottomans to retake Mombasa and there are no sources to back up such an assertion. The primary documents mention only that Somali sailors took part, not what clan or where they were from. As usual, such an assertion comes from the imagination of the author.

Sorry, the references states Ajuran took part of it. Do you want me to show you more sources of them having a powerful navy and doing naval expedition with the Ottoman as far as Southeast Asia? Read the source below.

Let's not play games here. Ajuran is known for defending their coast and successfully defeating the Portuguese including the battle of Barawa and I shown you two types of sources already.

Look at the Portuguese map. They never ruled any Somali territory and that's a historical fact thanks to the Ajuran Empire.

 

[James Dahl]

Here are some photos of old Portuguese lighthouse and guard tower in Baraawe
http://vintagesomalia.com/post/33072821451/old-portuguese-lighthouse-november-1986-baraawe
from another angle:

 

[Factz]

Here are some photos of old Portuguese lighthouse and guard tower in Baraawe
http://vintagesomalia.com/post/33072821451/old-portuguese-lighthouse-november-1986-baraawe
from another angle:

Listen I have shown you two source stating that the Ajuran won the battle of Barawa and you're showing me a building that Ajuran engineers built. They also built that in other coastal areas that Ajuran ruled but some of them are destroyed due to civil war of Ajuran when it collapsed in the late 17th century. You're not proving anything here.

 

[James Dahl]

Anyways the problem here is citing essays written today with lots of fanciful conclusions rather than reading the primary documents, which don't back up these conclusions.

Read the cited footnotes, compare them to what they are cited for.

 

[James Dahl]

The essay you are quoting as saying the Ajuuraan both won the battle of Baraawe and also sailed with the Ottomans, the cited references say neither of these things. Yet this is the citation! Where did the idea come from then that these were Ajuuraan? His imagination!

 

[Factz]

Anyways the problem here is citing essays written today with lots of fanciful conclusions rather than reading the primary documents, which don't back up these conclusions.

Read the cited footnotes, compare them to what they are cited for.

There are Portuguese sources stating that Tristão da Cunha was severely injured in the battle of Barawa and most of his men and ships were gone. He then escaped to Socotra islands for safety and decided to re-group his men and looked at Mogadishu instead but his advisers refused him and said you'll lose just like Barawa but worse.

Now you show me a source of Portguese conquering Barawa.

 

[James Dahl]

There are Portuguese sources stating that Tristão da Cunha was severely injured in the battle of Barawa and most of his men and ships were gone. He then escaped to Socotra islands for safety and decided to re-group his men and looked at Mogadishu instead but his advisers refused him and said you'll lose just like Barawa but worse.

This is completely false. After Baraawe he wanted to attack Mogadishu but his men said there were too many defenders so they chose to instead sail on to Socotra and capture it (it was not yet Portuguese) and went on to invade several more towns in Arabia and India. Where is the source saying he lost men? Where is the source that said he was injured? Where is the source that he lost ships? Nowhere.

 

[Factz]

This is completely false. After Baraawe he wanted to attack Mogadishu but his men said there were too many defenders so they chose to instead sail on to Socotra and capture it (it was not yet Portuguese) and went on to invade several more towns in Arabia and India. Where is the source saying he lost men? Where is the source that said he was injured? Where is the source that he lost ships? Nowhere.

Here it says Ajuran successfully defended Barawa against the Portuguese and all Tristão da Cunha did was burn and loot the town but eventually Ajuran repelled them and rebuilt the city.

Here is where it says Ajuran successfully resisted Portuguese incurious in the Indian Ocean. No where it says Ajuran lost against the Portuguese.

Now you show me a source sir.

 

[James Dahl]

Here are some sources:

History of Portugal
https://books.google.ca/books?id=oG...bAhUVITQIHVCyB-EQ6AEINjAC#v=onepage&q&f=false

original source in Portuguese;
https://books.google.ca/books?id=gO...AA#v=onepage&q=tristao de cunha brava&f=false

Book about government reference:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Yx...AB#v=onepage&q=tristao de cunha brava&f=false

account of the massacre of Barawa:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Qj...bAhXPGTQIHVFgB_cQ6AEILTAB#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[James Dahl]

More references:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=4z...bAhXPGTQIHVFgB_cQ6AEITTAH#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.ca/books?id=gc...WGGjQIHfCIA504KBDoAQhAMAM#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.ca/books?id=l_...XYIDQIHXlAAJQ4MhDoAQhuMAk#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[James Dahl]

The source you are quoting, the references for that quote do not say what the author wants them to say. Your reference is not reliable and indeed, other sources say the opposite.

I have shown how the essay you quote contains inaccurate information based on the imagination of the author. The references do not say these things, and without primary sources backing up assertions such as those made by the author this is little more than historical fiction.

 

[Factz]

Here are some sources:

History of Portugal
https://books.google.ca/books?id=oG...bAhUVITQIHVCyB-EQ6AEINjAC#v=onepage&q&f=false

original source in Portuguese;
https://books.google.ca/books?id=gOMr-13sAuIC&pg=PA761&dq=tristao+de+cunha+brava&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwihiYqrwfTbAhUVITQIHVCyB-EQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=tristao de cunha brava&f=false

Book about government reference:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Yx6qLPZHyK0C&pg=PA78&dq=tristao+de+cunha+brava&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwihiYqrwfTbAhUVITQIHVCyB-EQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=tristao de cunha brava&f=false

account of the massacre of Barawa:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Qj...bAhXPGTQIHVFgB_cQ6AEILTAB#v=onepage&q&f=false

Only one of says attack barawa but not conquer. The other one is written in Portuguese and the other two talks about what happened in Barawa.

More references:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=4z...bAhXPGTQIHVFgB_cQ6AEITTAH#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.ca/books?id=gc...WGGjQIHfCIA504KBDoAQhAMAM#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.ca/books?id=l_...XYIDQIHXlAAJQ4MhDoAQhuMAk#v=onepage&q&f=false

Again two of them doesn't show you the book and one of them talks about what happen in Barawa and I've already shown you that but we're talking about who took over Barawa.

So far you haven't provided valid sources that backs up your claims, unlike mine. I've given you three sources about Ajuran defending Barawa successfully. Let me find you another one stating Ajuran resisted Portuguese colonization including Barawa.

In fact, if you read this book. His father stated to lose against the Ajuran and it also states his son we're talking about also lost colonizing the Ajuran coast including Barawa.

Here: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...WnJcAKHePhB3Y4ChDoAQg8MAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Oh by the way, we all agreed Barawa was sacked but it was not conquered. I mean Vasco da Gama tried to conquer Mogadishu and Barawa too and he came out unsuccessful.

 

[James Dahl]

That's not what the source says, Baraawe was sacked and the Portuguese built a tower and a port there, and they were not evicted from Baraawe until the 18th century. There is no primary source that says otherwise.

 

[Factz]

That's not what the source says, Baraawe was sacked and the Portuguese built a tower and a port there, and they were not evicted from Baraawe until the 18th century. There is no primary source that says otherwise.

Ajuran Empire never lost a war against Portuguese apart from Mombasa. But Portuguese are known to losing Ajuran after attempting to colonize their coast. You are the first person to tell me this new story. Plus, none of your sources states anything like that.

 

[James Dahl]

Ajuran Empire never lost a war against Portuguese apart from Mombasa. But Portuguese are known to losing Ajuran after attempting to colonize their coast. You are the first person to tell me this new story. Plus, none of your sources states anything like that.

Seriously?
I guess we're done here then

 

[Factz]

Seriously?
I guess we're done here then

Okay but let me just tell you it wouldn't make sense for Ajuran to work with the Ottomans and travel as far as southeast Asia in 1560 and try to liberate the Swahili coast in 1580 if Barawa was really conquered in 1506, so the sources I read about Ajuran winning the battle of Barawa is true, not fiction according to you. Just saying.

 

[James Dahl]

Now you need a source that says it was Ajuuraan and another one that says they then marched south and retook Baraawe

 

[Factz]

Now you need a source that says it was Ajuuraan and another one that says they then marched south and retook Baraawe

I think it's better for you to use common sense. Barawa was a port of Ajuran Kingdom since their emerge in the mid 13th century. Ajuran Empire done a naval expedition with the Ottomans against the Portuguese as far as southeast Asia in 1560. They did a joint expedition against the Portuguese colonies in southeast Africa and were well known for liberating the Swahili coast in 1580, so I think it's obvious Ajuran won the battle of Barawa, eventually. It wouldn't make sense for Ajuran to do all of this when they lost a piece of territory according to you.