The Argument from Free Will

[BebsiBolice]

How could I change my future if Allah already knows it? You're completely forgetting the important matter of qadr which means fate. You must believe in fate to be a Muslim in Islam and fate conflicts with free will.

I don't agree I will return back to answer your question regarding fate and free will.

 

[The_Cosmos]

It’s as simple as this: you’re free to make a choice, God just knows what that choice is going to be. There’s no intervention like @BebsiBolice mentioned.



You’re contradicting yourself when you say “God has no freewill because he can’t change his mind since that would create a paradox in that it conflicts with his Omni powers”. If God does have Omni powers (i.e. he has absolute knowledge of everything, past & present), why would he need to change his mind? Surely he’ll always, without fail, make the choices that are the wisest and most befitting for the Lord of the world.



You have very little understanding of Qadr. I’m not going to go in depth with you in this subject, I’ll keep it concise. You cannot base your decisions on “what is written for you” since you have no knowledge of that, your duty is to strive to do good works. Allah has foreknowledge of the decisions that you’re going to make but the choice is yours. If I slap myself this second, sure it was written for me, but it was also my own doing. Qadr is basically you making decisions by the permission of Allah (whilst he already has knowledge of the actions that you’re going to make in advance), hence it was written for you.



That’s honestly a very stupid question. Being unable to be incompetent is actually indicative of absolute power rather than the contrary. If we say it’s impossible for Allah to forget something, is this a weakness or a mark of omnipotence? Allah cannot forget anything, thus he’s the all-knowing and all-aware, capiche?

You've made too many point, I'll try to answer them all. You must try and acknowledge the points I've made instead of simply repeating what others have made or trying to dismiss my points.

Qadr implies Fate which contradicts free will because that would mean that no matter what you do, it's out of your control. You're literally trying to move mountains by trying to make it seem as if two complete contradictions are somehow completely logical. One cannot be free to make his choices but at the same time have a path that he must walk through that he cannot change. Not knowing you're fate DOES NOT mean you are in control.

It is not a contradiction to state that if Allah wanted to change his future, he wouldn't be able to because it would contract his Omni powers. It would create a paradox.

How is a stupid question to ask if God can create a stone so heavy even he can can't lift? Stop trying to simply dismiss things. It brings to question God's limitation and contradictions.

 

[The_Cosmos]

I don't agree I will return back to answer your question regarding fate and free will.

Qadr means fate which means pre destination. If everything is pre destined for you, you cannot have free will. If I can know all your moves in a chess game with absolute certainty, is that game fair?

 

[Layth]

You've made too many point, I'll try to answer them all. You must try and acknowledge the points I've made instead of simply repeating what others have made or trying to dismiss my points.

Qadr implies Fate which contradicts free will because that would mean that no matter what you do, it's out of your control. You're literally trying to move mountains by trying to make it seem as if two complete contradictions are somehow completely logical. One cannot be free to make his choices but at the same time have a path that he must walk through that he cannot change. Not knowing you're fate DOES NOT mean you are in control.

It is not a contradiction to state that if Allah wanted to change his future, he wouldn't be able to because it would contract his Omni powers. It would create a paradox.

How is a stupid question to ask if God can create a stone so heavy even he can can't lift? Stop trying to simply dismiss things. It brings to question God's limitation and contradictions.

Unbeknownst to you, you’re actually the one who’s dismissing people’s arguments lmao. You’ve not pointed out flaws in any of the arguments that I’ve made. I’m not regurgitating what other people are saying, it was just one point that was part of the general idea of my post and I just wanted to credit them for it since they preceded me in mentioning it. “Qadr simply means fate”, there’s more depth to it than that, at least in the Islamic version. If your future choices were already known to Allah and Allah has decreed (in advance) that these choices will come into effect, how does that mean it wasn’t your choice? I hope you can, or at least try to explain this because you’re not making sense here. It does not bring God’s limitations into question, not even remotely. That it’s impossible for God to be incompetent is actually indicative of his omnipotence, is it not? I’ve already mentioned this point before but I’ll repeat it, if I say it’s impossible for God to be unaware of, or forget something, does this mean that God has limitations or does it mean he’s the all-knowing all-aware?

 

[MrProfessor]

You've made too many point, I'll try to answer them all. You must try and acknowledge the points I've made instead of simply repeating what others have made or trying to dismiss my points.

Qadr implies Fate which contradicts free will because that would mean that no matter what you do, it's out of your control. You're literally trying to move mountains by trying to make it seem as if two complete contradictions are somehow completely logical. One cannot be free to make his choices but at the same time have a path that he must walk through that he cannot change. Not knowing you're fate DOES NOT mean you are in control.

It is not a contradiction to state that if Allah wanted to change his future, he wouldn't be able to because it would contract his Omni powers. It would create a paradox.

How is a stupid question to ask if God can create a stone so heavy even he can can't lift? Stop trying to simply dismiss things. It brings to question God's limitation and contradictions.

Buddy, you're the only one repeating himself. We all gave you answers but they are not sufficient enough for you. The only answer that will suffice is if we say "yes you're right, I'm now an atheist".

You keep repeating the "pleading" thing. No one is pleading for anything thing. But either view God as God and put him in you're logical paradoxes as God, or you can view him as a being similar to you. But what you are doing (maybe unintentionally) is you are interweaving the two.

So yes saying "because he is...God" is and should be sufficient.

 

[The_Cosmos]

Buddy, you're the only one repeating himself. We all gave you answers but they are not sufficient enough for you. The only answer that will suffice is if we say "yes you're right, I'm now an atheist".

You keep repeating the "pleading" thing. No one is pleading for anything thing. But either view God as God and put him in you're logical paradoxes as God, or you can view him as a being similar to you. But what you are doing (maybe unintentionally) is you are interweaving the two.

So yes saying "because he is...God" is and should be sufficient.

I apologise for wanting a bit more depth and reasoning to just "because he is God" argument. You simply conceded that logic should not be used to understand God and thus now I am asking you to tell me what method I can use to understand you God.

 

[The_Cosmos]

Unbeknownst to you, you’re actually the one who’s dismissing people’s arguments lmao. You’ve not pointed out flaws in any of the arguments that I’ve made. I’m not regurgitating what other people are saying, it was just one point that was part of the general idea of my post and I just wanted to credit them for it since they preceded me in mentioning it. “Qadr simply means fate”, there’s more depth to it than that, at least in the Islamic version. If your future choices were already known to Allah and Allah has decreed (in advance) that these choices will come into effect, how does that mean it wasn’t your choice? I hope you can, or at least try to explain this because you’re not making sense here. It does not bring God’s limitations into question, not even remotely. That it’s impossible for God to be incompetent is actually indicative of his omnipotence, is it not? I’ve already mentioned this point before but I’ll repeat it, if I say it’s impossible for God to be unaware of, or forget something, does this mean that God has limitations or does it mean he’s the all-knowing all-aware?

Ok, let me give you an example.

Let us say that I walk into a store. I pick out a drink from many different options of drinks (or so it seems). To you, whatever choice I make is my own choice but I want to present to you why this is logically absurd. Allah has already preordained (qadr) which drink I was going to pick out which simply means that all the other drinks that are supposedly open for me to pick out are nothing more than illusions. I am presented with the illusion of being able to make my own choice. The illusion derives from my inability to know my own future. Now, a choice is a choice which can be avoidable and so if I cannot avoid what God has preordained then how is it a choice.

 

[Layth]

Ok, let me give you an example.

Let us say that I walk into a store. I pick out a drink from many different options of drinks (or so it seems). To you, whatever choice I make is my own choice but I want to present to you why this is logically absurd. Allah has already preordained (qadr) which drink I was going to pick out which simply means that all the other drinks that are supposedly open for me to pick out are nothing more than illusions. I am presented with the illusion of being able to make my own choice. The illusion derives from my inability to know my own future. Now, a choice is a choice which can be avoidable and so if I cannot avoid what God has preordained then how is it a choice.

You seem genuinely curious, respect.

Allah (SWT) has preordained meaning he had foreknowledge of the decision you’re going to make AND he decreed that it will indeed come to pass, in advance. For instance, I can plan to visit a relative’s house tomorrow but it may not happen since I may encounter an obstacle that I do not anticipate at this moment, for instance, a calamity such as a sickness may befall me which will prevent me from making my journey, thus it would have not been written for me that I will visit this relative of mine. On the other hand, if I do not encounter any obstacle and I’m not prevented in any way, I may very well visit this relative of mine, this means that it was preordained that I would visit this relative of mine.

These are one of those discussions where all parties engaged can go back and forth ad infinitum. I just wanted to briefly share the opinions/beliefs of millions of Muslims concerning this issue, and I’ve accomplished that. The way you’re presenting these concepts is a far cry from the holistic understanding that Muslims have of them since you’re missing subtleties. I’ll finish with this:

Say: "O you mankind! Now truth (i.e. the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad SAW), has come to you from your Lord. So whosoever receives guidance, he does so for the good of his own self, and whosoever goes astray, he does so to his own loss, and I am not (set) over you as a Wakil (disposer of affairs to oblige you for guidance)."

I’m out, peace.

 

[The_Cosmos]

You seem genuinely curious, respect.

Allah (SWT) has preordained meaning he had foreknowledge of the decision you’re going to make AND he decreed that it will indeed come to pass, in advance. For instance, I can plan to visit a relative’s house tomorrow but it may not happen since I may encounter an obstacle that I do not anticipate at this moment, for instance, a calamity such as a sickness may befall me which will prevent me from making my journey, thus it was not written for me that I will visit this relative of mine. On the other hand, if I do not encounter any obstacle and I’m not prevented in any way, I may very well visit this relative of mine, this means that it was preordained that I would visit this relative of mine.

These are one of those discussions where all parties engaged can go back and forth ad infinitum. I just wanted to briefly share the opinions/beliefs of millions of Muslims concerning this issue, and I’ve accomplished that. The way you’re presenting these concepts is a far cry from the holistic understanding that Muslims have of them since you’re missing subtleties. I’ll finish with this:

Say: "O you mankind! Now truth (i.e. the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad SAW), has come to you from your Lord. So whosoever receives guidance, he does so for the good of his own self, and whosoever goes astray, he does so to his own loss, and I am not (set) over you as a Wakil (disposer of affairs to oblige you for guidance)."

I’m out, peace.

You haven't actually answered my point but instead you've replaced it with another which is equally if not more convincing that people don't have free will.

Understand that I was a former Muslim myself and I know a lot about Islam as I have grown up being taught about it. Nothing I have presented goes against the actual teachings of Islam. The argument from Free will has been around for hundreds of years and it's so strong that Muslim intellectuals of the golden age established entire new movements that tried to reconcile the paradox.

Anyways take care.

 

[MrProfessor]

As for us having free will entirely, and that God knows what our actions will be. @Layth answered it very well. God knowing what we will do and thus ordering that we indeed will do those things (qadr). Doesn't mean you don't have free will.

As for God not having Free will bc he knows everything that will happen. That simply just doesn't make sense

This is what I mean by "God is God". You look at this as if God can do all the things attributed to him. All knowing, all seeing, all hearing, all powerful, and omnipotent.
So if you consent the fact that God is omnipotent, then the rules of human logic simply don't apply to him.
How can there be anything that is omnipotent in the first place, before you even scrutinize and dissect the Omnipotence.

 

[The_Cosmos]

As for us having free will entirely, and that God knows what our actions will be. @Layth answered it very well. God knowing what we will do and thus ordering that we indeed will do those things (qadr). Doesn't mean you don't have free will.

As for God not having Free will bc he knows everything that will happen. That simply just doesn't make sense

This is what I mean by "God is God". You look at this as if God can do all the things attributed to him. All knowing, all seeing, all hearing, all powerful, and omnipotent.
So if you consent the fact that God is omnipotent, then the rules of human logic simply don't apply to him.
How can there be anything that is omnipotent in the first place, before you even scrutinize and dissect the Omnipotence.

You lot are ignoring my points completely. I have determined that a choice can only be a choice if it is avoidable meaning that I can choose not to do it. Now, if Allah has preordained for me to partake in a certain action, there is no way for me to avoid it therefore meaning that I do not have free will.

Concerning God. "God is God" is textbook example of special pleading because you deliberately ignored the aspects that do not favour your point of view and then resided to simply say that Allah is above human logic. That is special pleading.

 

[MrProfessor]

Philosophical paradoxes don't apply to God because God is the one that created those paradoxes in the first place.

What I find amusing is how atheists scrutinize theists for opting out with "God is God" when asked philosophical questions
But atheists opt out with " we don't know, and it shouldn't bother us" to questions like. Where did we come from, what's the point of life, where are we headed, what does it mean to be me, is there a soul or is me just my meat and bone? etc etc

 

[Muwahhid]

Brothers don't stoop to the level of these vermin and surround yourself with Muslims and their talk.

 

[The_Cosmos]

Philosophical paradoxes don't apply to God because God is the one that created those paradoxes in the first place.

What I find amusing is how atheists scrutinize theists for opting out with "God is God" when asked philosophical questions
But atheists opt out with " we don't know, and it shouldn't bother us" to questions like. Where did we come from, what's the point of life, where are we headed, what does it mean to be me, is there a soul or is me just my meat and bone? etc etc

I don't know is part of the scientific method and it helps you understand what you don't know and move to try and figure out the answer. Religion makes claims without providing one single shred of evidence and yet I should accept it because it gave an answer to a question the universe doesn't really care about. In order for those questions to be taken seriously, you must prove that they have some sort of purpose. I'll gladly say "I don't know" to what I actually don't know instead of making up shit.

Also concerning those questions. There are literally thousands of religions that also claim t answer the same questions. Do I just take into consideration yours?

 

[The_Cosmos]

Brothers don't stoop to the level of these vermin and surround yourself with Muslims and their talk.

Bring something to the table or go away... please.

 

[Muwahhid]

Bring something to the table or go away... please.

Was I addressing you you Mulhid scum?

 

[The_Cosmos]

Was I addressing you you Mulhid scum?

My thread you inbred imbecile! Go fondle a goat or some shit!

 

[Muwahhid]

My thread you inbred imbecile! Go fondle a goat or some shit!

May Allah's floods consume you and do not address me again you wretched son of a wretch.

 

[The_Cosmos]

May Allah's floods consume you and do not address me again you wretched son of a wretch.

Wow, remember when the prophet got angry at those who insulted Bilal through his mother? You committed a sin! I demand you repent!

 

[Ali Sanchez]

May Allah's floods consume you and do not address me again you wretched son of a wretch.

Akh u have to respect our ex akh okay? Don't go around throwing ad homs like a toddler hayee?