The Argument from Free Will

[The_Cosmos]

Might as well ask why did Allah create evil? The answer is really simple. Those who engage in evil cannot possibly have the same fate as those who are destined for eternal bliss. They are not equal in any way and especially not in faith and deed.

“Not equal are the companions of the Fire and the companions of Paradise. The companions of Paradise - they are the attainers [of success].”

Bottom line is, everyone makes their own choices, we were all situated on this planet to be tested. You’ve decided to disbelief, so take responsibility for your kufr like a man.

I do take my kufr as my own doing after a long and hard attempt to reconcile two complete contradictions.

"Why did Allah create evil?" That's the problem of evil and it doesn't make sense either. If you create evil, then you are responsible for it. For example, if you leave a gun on the table and some child takes it and kills themselves with it, you are responsible. However, it is not the point of the thread.

Islam is trying to bring together two different points that are philosophically have been found to be illogical. Most people will claim that they feel free therefore they must be free but that doesn't work. Islam tries to bring together libertarian free will (not the same as libertarianism) and hard determinism (Qadr). Philosophically they are both incompatible. Life cannot be determined but free at the same time.

 

[Layth]

Ninyahow why do you constantly repeat yourself?

 

[Layth]

I do take my kufr as my own doing after a long and hard attempt to reconcile two complete contradictions.

"Why did Allah create evil?" That's the problem of evil and it doesn't make sense either. If you create evil, then you are responsible for it. For example, if you leave a gun on the table and some child takes it and kills themselves with it, you are responsible. However, it is not the point of the thread.

Islam is trying to bring together two different points that are philosophically have been found to be illogical. Most people will claim that they feel free therefore they must be free but that doesn't work. Islam tries to bring together libertarian free will (not the same as libertarianism) and hard determinism (Qadr). Philosophically they are both incompatible. Life cannot be determined but free at the same time.

Initially, I was actually entertaining the thought that there’s a likelihood that you’re asking these questions out of genuine curiosity, now I’m convinced that I was mistaken since you keep reiterating questions that were answered at least half-a-dozen times on this thread.

There are reasons why Allah (SWT) created evil. I’ve mentioned them before several times on this forum but I’ll mention them again. If evil didn’t exist, how exactly will we have the chance to make the choice between good and evil? We are given freewill to decide whether we want to follow the path of guidance or self-destruction. There are already perfect, infallible beings that do not commit any sin and weren’t created with the capability to; they’re called Angels.

Scholars say a righteous human is superior to an Angel since the Angels don’t have the choice to disobey but humans do.

To associate hard determinism with qadr shows that you had no clear understanding of what Qadr is to begin with. Because hard determinism suggests that Allah must intervene in the actions and choices of his servants which is completely untrue. Wallahi you are lying about our religion and associating it with concepts that are alien to it, that's all I'm saying. We've explained to you what Qadr is... These are not merely our opinions or that of latter day scholars, these have their origins in the Qur'an and Sunnah. They were known to Muslims since the Prophet (SAW)'s time.

 

[The_Cosmos]

Initially, I was actually entertaining the thought that there’s a likelihood that you’re asking these questions out of genuine curiosity, now I’m convinced that I was mistaken since you keep reiterating questions that were answered at least half-a-dozen times on this thread.

There are reasons why Allah (SWT) created evil. I’ve mentioned them before several times on this forum but I’ll mention them again. If evil didn’t exist, how exactly will we have the chance to make the choice between good and evil? We are given freewill to decide whether we want to follow the path of guidance or self-destruction. There are already perfect, infallible beings that do not commit any sin and weren’t created with the capability to; they’re called Angels.

Scholars say a righteous human is superior to an Angel since the Angels don’t have the choice to disobey but humans do.

To associate hard determinism with qadr shows that you had no clear understanding of what Qadr is to begin with. Because hard determinism suggests that Allah must intervene in the actions and choices of his servants which is completely untrue. Wallahi you are lying about our religion and associating it with concepts that are alien to it, that's all I'm saying. We've explained to you what Qadr is... These are not merely our opinions or that of latter day scholars, these have their origins in the Qur'an and Sunnah. They were known to Muslims since the Prophet (SAW)'s time.

It seem you don't know what hard determinism is because that is not what it necessarily has to mean. It simply means that everything you do is predetermined. Fate (predetermination) is hard determinism.

I have not presented a question, I have presented a point of discussion and I have opinions of my own. You assume I made this thread to seek answers when in reality I made this thread to point out the clear contradiction on the theology of free will. Likewise, you refuse to acknowledge my points.

This is the second time that you are announcing your departure.

 

[Layth]

It seem you don't know what hard determinism is because that is not what it necessarily has to mean. It simply means that everything you do is predetermined. Fate (predetermination) is hard determinism.

I have not presented a question, I have presented a point of discussion and I have opinions of my own. You assume I made this thread to seek answers when in reality I made this thread to point out the clear contradiction on the theology of free will. Likewise, you refuse to acknowledge my points.

This is the second time that you are announcing your departure.

I announced my departure last time because I was extremely busy at the time. Hard determinism means all of your actions are entirely determined by eternal factors, in what way is this similar to Qadr? This concept very clearly suggests that humans don't make choice their own choices.


Qadr means Allah (SWT) has decreed that all of the choices you'll make will come to pass.

 

[The_Cosmos]

I announced my departure last time because I was extremely busy at the time. Hard determinism means all of your actions are entirely determined by eternal factors, in what way is this similar to Qadr?


Qadr means Allah (SWT) has willed that all of the choices you'll make will come to pass.

This is precisely what I mean when I say that you're not actually acknowledging my point. I'm not denying that Allah has willed everything to pass but what I am saying is that if every action is written in stone then that individual has no free will to change. It's like a teacher pre-assigning grades to every student and then asking the students to take the test. Tests are done in order to determine an outcome and if the outcome is fixed then the test is in reality no test at all.

 

[Layth]

This is precisely what I mean when I say that you're not actually acknowledging my point. I'm not denying that Allah has willed everything to pass but what I am saying is that if every action is written in stone then that individual has no free will to change. It's like a teacher pre-assigning grades to every student and then asking the students to take the test. Tests are done in order to determine an outcome and if the outcome is fixed then the test is in reality no test at all.

I fully acknowledge your point bro. Allah (SWT) has foreknowledge of your actions and has decreed in advance whether they’ll occur, they’ve just been written prior to their occurrence. If I have firm knowledge of one of the decisions that you’re going to make in the future, and I write them down, does this mean you don’t have freewill? The outcome of the test is not fixed, it’s known (to Allah of course). There’s a difference. Reminisce one of the choices you’ve made in the past for a second, why have you made that choice? Why not the other ones? Since you’ve made that choice in exclusion to the alternative ones, and likewise since you’re going to make choices in the future in exclusion to all the other possible choices does this mean that you don’t have freewill? Allah (SWT) doesn’t intervene… For goodness sake.

 

[The_Cosmos]

I fully acknowledge your point bro. Allah (SWT) has foreknowledge of your actions and has decreed in advance whether they’ll occur, they’ve just been written prior to their occurrence. If I have firm knowledge of one of the decisions that you’re going to make in the future, and I write them down, does this mean you don’t have freewill? The outcome of the test is not fixed, it’s known (to Allah of course). There’s a difference. Reminisce one of the choices you’ve made in the past for a second, why have you made that choice? Why not the other ones? Since you’ve made that choice in exclusion to the alternative ones, and likewise since you’re going to make choices in the future in exclusion to all the other possible choices does this mean that you don’t have freewill? Allah (SWT) doesn’t intervene… For goodness sake.

I don't want to sound condescending but you just keep rewinding the exact same issue of free will. You claimed that Allah knows the outcome but somehow the outcome is not fixed?? That does not make any sense at all. The very fact that Allah knows the outcome means it is fixed because there is no way the outcome can change because if it can change then it implies that Allah did not know the outcome. If you understand omniscience as meaning that Allah knows everything that can be known then I can live with that but saying that he knows an outcome of a test but somehow that very outcome is not fixed is playing a war of words.

Again, you confuse the feeling of being able to make free decision as somehow meaning that you have made the decision. This is simply not the case.

 

[Layth]

I don't want to sound condescending but you just keep rewinding the exact same issue of free will. You claimed that Allah knows the outcome but somehow the outcome is not fixed?? That does not make any sense at all. The very fact that Allah knows the outcome means it is fixed because there is no way the outcome can change because if it can change then it implies that Allah did not know the outcome. If you understand omniscience as meaning that Allah knows everything that can be known then I can live with that but saying that he knows an outcome of a test but somehow that very outcome is not fixed is playing a war of words.

Again, you confuse the feeling of being able to make free decision as somehow meaning that you have made the decision. This is simply not the case.

Alas... I've come to the conclusion that my efforts are futile. It's YOU who keeps repeating himself, don't be too quick to point fingers. Condescending kulaha... When I said "it's not fixed", what I meant was, Allah did not forcefully and sadistically push certain people to commit the deeds that will result in them ending up in the hell-fire as you're making out the case to be. Because if this is not the case, the only alternative is to accept my explanation (logically). The outcome (that's known to Allah) CANNOT CHANGE because they are the result of the choices that YOU will make in your lifetime. I'm not confusing the feeling of being able to make free decision with anything... Don't speak for me, thank you. Also, if you have read my previous post clearly (something tells me you haven't), I've referred to the decisions that you WILL BE making in the future as well.

 

[The_Cosmos]

Alas... I've come to the conclusion that my efforts are futile. It's YOU who keeps repeating himself, don't be too quick to point fingers. Condescending kulaha... When I said "it's not fixed", what I meant was, Allah did not forcefully and sadistically push certain people to commit the deeds that will result in them ending up in the hell-fire as you're making out the case to be. Because if this is not the case, the only alternative is to accept my explanation (logically). The outcome (that's known to Allah) CANNOT CHANGE because they are a result of the choices that YOU will make in your lifetime. I'm not confusing the feeling of being able to make free decision with anything... Don't speak for me, thank you. Also, if you have read my previous post clearly (something tells me you haven't), I've referred to the decisions that you WILL BE making in the future.

My efforts have clearly been futile as well as you keep refusing to acknowledge. I'm not asking you to accept it, I'm only asking you to acknowledge it. I've understood you claims but I found there to be too many logical holes. You've straw manned me because I didn't claim that Allah "forcefully and sadistically push certain people to commit the deeds that will result in them ending up in the hell-fire as you're making out the case to be."

I don't know how you understand free will but I understand it as the ability to make avoidable choices and if the outcome is not avoidable then that means the choices we make are not avoidable. I will gain refer back to the example I gave of the teacher. Allah has pre-assigned the outcomes of this world. By this I mean that he has already written down the results of the test. Now, knowing that he has written down the results before I even entered the test and knowing that those results are unchangeable, how could I avoid hell if that is where I am going and supposing it already exists?

Choice - "an act of choosing between two or more possibilities." (Cambridge dictionary). Knowing this, how can there be two or more possibilities if the outcome has already been determined.

 

[Layth]

My efforts have clearly been futile as well as you keep refusing to acknowledge. I'm not asking you to accept it, I'm only asking you to acknowledge it. I've understood you claims but I found there to be too many logical holes. You've straw manned me because I didn't claim that Allah "forcefully and sadistically push certain people to commit the deeds that will result in them ending up in the hell-fire as you're making out the case to be."

I don't know how you understand free will but I understand it as the ability to make avoidable choices and if the outcome is not avoidable then that means the choices we make are not avoidable. I will gain refer back to the example I gave of the teacher. Allah has pre-assigned the outcomes of this world. By this I mean that he has already written down the results of the test. Now, knowing that he has written down the results before I even entered the test and knowing that those results are unchangeable, how could I avoid hell if that is where I am going and supposing it already exists?

Choice - "an act of choosing between two or more possibilities." (Cambridge dictionary). Knowing this, how can there be two or more possibilities if the outcome has already been determined.

How preposterous… Are any of the choices that you’re going to be making in the future avoidable? Since you’re inevitably going to make a choice, then how does it change anything if God knows what it’s going to be? I’m repeating myself because you’re presenting the same argument over and over again. I (and many others on SSPOT) believe that the explanation I’ve given is sufficient for the point that you keep reiterating.

Summary of your argument: “We don’t have freewill because God knows what we’re going to do”… Explain your reasoning to me or go tell it to the birds. You’ve officially convinced me that you’re a troll.

Answer this questions for me please, so we can end this crap:

Do we Muslims believe that Allah (SWT) intervenes in the choices that we make?

 

[Kalshaale]

In order to have free will, you must have more than one option, each of which is avoidable. This means that before you make a choice, there must be a state of uncertainty during a period of potential: you cannot know the future. Even if you think you can predict your decision, if you claim to have free will, you must admit the potential (if not the desire) to change your mind before the decision is final.

A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty." It knows its choices in advance. This means that it has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore lacks free will. Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.

I would like this to be an ordered debate. Bring something to the table.

Everything created has limitations. Free will is part of the creation, thus it has it's own limitation. Within the scope of "free will", so to speak, there are choices one can make to have an outcome. Had the person made another choice regarding the same issue, then another outcome would have been established. With that being said, there are things one must do irregardless of whether there is free-will or not. For example, if you have the ability to release your urine, you have free will to do so for a certain amount of period. But, there is a limitation to that free-will. There will come a point where you WILL release your urine and you cannot escape the fact you cannot hold it any longer.

Everything within creation and everything created has a limitation.

 

[The_Cosmos]

How preposterous… Are any of the choices that you’re going to be making in the future avoidable? Since you’re inevitably going to make a choice, then how does it change anything if God knows what it’s going to be? I’m repeating myself because you’re presenting the same argument over and over again. I (and many others on SSPOT) believe that the explanation I’ve given is sufficient for the point that you keep reiterating.

Summary of your argument: “We don’t have freewill because God knows what we’re going to do”… Explain your reasoning to me or go tell it to the birds. You’ve officially convinced me that you’re a troll.

Answer this questions for me please, so we can end this crap:

Do we Muslims believe that Allah (SWT) intervenes in the choices that we make?

I like the fact that you didn't address the definition of "choice" which I provided. A choice can only be a choice of there are several different alternatives and they must be avoidable (for obvious reasons). This also puts into question the nature of free will in general and does necessarily have to be an argument against God.

Every single one of them are Muslims and thus of course they are not going to accept my positioning that points out the logical absurdities in their religion. Plus, by your reasoning, considering that I have the backing of some of the greatest thinkers of history and modern ones alike, I must be right. What people think is no business of mine and it should not be of yours either. The argument of free will is one that has exited as far back as the ancient Greeks.

NO! My argument is that we don't have free will because God's omniscience makes it unavoidable. Don't straw man me!

You seem to be indulging yourself in things that I have not even mentioned. I have not said that Allah intervenes in the choices tat you supposedly make and thus why would you ask me such a question?

I have presented a logical argument but you only seem to keep reiterating the fact that we are the ones making those choices. We cannot have free will if the choices we makes are unavoidable. You only have one path in life which completely contradicts the idea of free will.

Look, I respect your arguments and I can see that we're coming at this from 2 different perspectives. You seem to be presenting me with the theological perspective whilst I'm addressing the philosophical perspective.

 

[The_Cosmos]

Everything created has limitations. Free will is part of the creation, thus it has it's own limitation. Within the scope of "free will", so to speak, there are choices one can make to have an outcome. Had the person made another choice regarding the same issue, then another outcome would have been established. With that being said, there are things one must do irregardless of whether there is free-will or not. For example, if you have the ability to release your urine, you have free will to do so for a certain amount of period. But, there is a limitation to that free-will. There will come a point where you WILL release your urine and you cannot escape the fact you cannot hold it any longer.

Everything within creation and everything created has a limitation.

Let's first understand what a choice is:

"An act of choosing between two or more different possibilities" and to make things more obvious, they must be avoidable. Now, if I am going to walk into a store to buy a drink and I am presented with an aisle of different possible options, we assume that we must be free to make that choice because we feel free, however, the outcome of my choice is already determined by the fact that God preordained the outcome meaning that my choice will be UNAVOIDABLE. There is absolutely nothing we can do to change the outcome of God's plan meaning that if a poor soul is damned to hell, he cannot avoid that outcome.

However, I would like to get an insight into your definition of omniscience and free will. The definitions are not fixed and can change.

 

[Kalshaale]

Let's first understand what a choice is:

"An act of choosing between two or more different possibilities" and to make things more obvious, they must be avoidable. Now, if I am going to walk into a store to buy a drink and I am presented with an aisle of different possible options, we assume that we must be free to make that choice because we feel free, however, the outcome of my choice is already determined by the fact that God preordained the outcome meaning that my choice will be UNAVOIDABLE. There is absolutely nothing we can do to change the outcome of God's plan meaning that if a poor soul is damned to hell, he cannot avoid that outcome.

However, I would like to get an insight into your definition of omniscience and free will. The definitions are not fixed and can change.

You can choose to believe whatsoever you like, as I too have the choice to accept as I so desire. That's the beautiful part of Free Will. I don't see the purpose of arguing really. It will not persuade either of us onto what either of us have accepted.

 

[The_Cosmos]

You can choose to believe whatsoever you like, as I too have the choice to accept as I so desire. That's the beautiful part of Free Will. I don't see the purpose of arguing really. It will not persuade either of us onto what either of us have accepted.

Let's agree to disagree.

 

[ebimomo]

OP, you're so pretentious and up your own ass that you're giving me a run for my money.

 

[InaCabdulqadir]

How could I change my future if Allah already knows it? You're completely forgetting the important matter of qadr which means fate. You must believe in fate to be a Muslim in Islam and fate conflicts with free will.

Think of it like this:

If Qadr exists, then free will (by your argument) does not exist at all. However, by your definition, the two do not contradict.

If you were given a choice between a cup of wine or a cup of water, and you told me in advance, does my knowledge (if you're a man of your word) of your choice in advance affect your free will?

 

[The_Cosmos]

Think of it like this:

If Qadr exists, then free will (by your argument) does not exist at all. However, by your definition, the two do not contradict.

If you were given a choice between a cup of wine or a cup of water, and you told me in advance, does my knowledge (if you're a man of your word) of your choice in advance affect your free will?

That's a terrible example that you purposely created for deception here because the problem is evident. My definition states that a choice must be two or more options that can be avoided and me telling you in advance doesn't hinder it as I can simply change my decision with you not knowing. I can avoid the choice that I told you I was going to make. Presenting yourself as an example is terrible because you're not omniscient and thus you're not aware of my choices only that which I tell you in advance. Big difference. Let's use the exact same example but without the deception.

If you were given a choice between a cup of wine or a cup of water and Allah, with his omniscience, knows before hand what you'll do, do I really have a choice? Remembering the original definition (a choice is only choice if there are two or more options presented that can be avoided) how could you defend free will? Unless you wish to redefine what free will and choice actually mean.

 

[The_Cosmos]

The debate about free will is one of the oldest debates and one that religious people have always struggled to defend. Muslims themselves (during the age of free thinking) deferred on how to tackle this problem. Some said that we have free will and god only figure out what we do after we do it, others went the other way stating we don't have free will at all. Point is, it's very difficult to defend absolute free will alongside predestination.