The Argument from Free Will

[Burhan]

I completely disagree with how you came to the conclusion you came to. Allah isn't aware of the many motives because to him, there aren't many but only one. Let me explain. To Allah, he already knows your every move and the millions of possibilities you speak about are all illusions because he already knows that which is chosen long before it was "chosen". There's only one outcome not millions.



I'm going to be off for now but I promise to address your points soon. They're riddled with logical fallacies. I'll be arguing that god does not have free will.

Meanwhile I suggest you read this.

https://ffrf.org/legacy/about/bybarker/fang.php

Okay, I decided to read the link you left. It contains with what you wrote earlier in some of your posts. It is more like a rebuttal to the Christian concept of God. Regardless,, I leave my reply to your link as a quote from an Islamic website. Here is the answer:


"Question

I have gone through your site on fate. I would like to ask 2 more questions.1.Does Allah (SWT)already knows what will happen or has He (SWT)already decided what will happen? Hope you will explain clearly difference between knows and decided. 2.Where in The Quran does Allah (SWT)says that man has free will? Hope you will answer this question.

Thank you.

Answer

Your answers are as follows:

1. God knows what will happen before it happens. He does not say that He has decided what will happen before hand. The difference is that if God knows what is going to happen it does not automatically mean that He affects the events in any way. However, if He has decided something it means that He has orchestrated the events. Knowing the future is different than creating the future. 2. The very concept of reward and punishment in the hereafter entails the concept of free-will. After all, how can one be held responsible, punished or even rewarded for something in which he was not even free to do otherwise.
2. Consider the following verse from the Holy Qur’an:

(The fact is that) God does not burden anyone beyond his capacity; every soul will have what it has earned and it will be held responsible only for its own doing. Al Baqarah 2:286

I hope I have clarified the issue.

God knows best."

http://www.understanding-islam.com/fate-and-free-will/

This website might be useful to you btw. It has some good intellectual discussions about God and Islamic related issues. Being a Muslim is not a requirement.

 

[The_Cosmos]

Lol No illusions man, for me all possible potential realities are open.

Choice isn't a real thing. Motives compete in every moment and are guided by a inner will that is never known fully until death. Freedom of will is an illusion.

ALLAH knows and see's everything. Praise be to Him.

To you they may be open but to god there is only one potential reality and that the one whom he has preordained. This only works if you believe Allah is fully omniscient.

Nonetheless, if freedom of will and choices aren't real, then the whole test is made void. I'm I wrong?

 

[The_Cosmos]

Okay, I decided to read the link you left. It contains with what you wrote earlier in some of your posts. It is more like a rebuttal to the Christian concept of God. Regardless,, I leave my reply to your link as a quote from an Islamic website. Here is the answer:


"Question

I have gone through your site on fate. I would like to ask 2 more questions.1.Does Allah (SWT)already knows what will happen or has He (SWT)already decided what will happen? Hope you will explain clearly difference between knows and decided. 2.Where in The Quran does Allah (SWT)says that man has free will? Hope you will answer this question.

Thank you.

Answer

Your answers are as follows:

1. God knows what will happen before it happens. He does not say that He has decided what will happen before hand. The difference is that if God knows what is going to happen it does not automatically mean that He affects the events in any way. However, if He has decided something it means that He has orchestrated the events. Knowing the future is different than creating the future. 2. The very concept of reward and punishment in the hereafter entails the concept of free-will. After all, how can one be held responsible, punished or even rewarded for something in which he was not even free to do otherwise.
2. Consider the following verse from the Holy Qur’an:

(The fact is that) God does not burden anyone beyond his capacity; every soul will have what it has earned and it will be held responsible only for its own doing. Al Baqarah 2:286

I hope I have clarified the issue.

God knows best."

http://www.understanding-islam.com/fate-and-free-will/

This website might be useful to you btw. It has some good intellectual discussions about God and Islamic related issues. Being a Muslim is not a requirement.

The problem with this, as I was arguing, is that it tries to reconcile the irreconcilable. Saying that Allah doesn't burden anyone with anything they can't handle is just repeating what the Quran is saying without any critical analysis. I mean, what about those who commit suicide after their beloved child dies? They couldn't handle it. You may reply they're weak but then you'd be moving from the Quran. Anyways, that's a deflection from my original points.

The site you used just repeats what everyone else stated before. My point is that Allah is intervening by being omniscient. It's a contradiction. It's like the whole question of "can god lift a stone so heavy he can't lift it?" When you have omniscience (as testified by him writing everything down via the angels) it's impossible to then claim that one has the free will to choose whether or not to participate in something. For example, what if I'm presented with water and wine and told to choose which one I'd like, I'm I free to choose? I'll demonstrate why it's not. A choice can only be two or more options that can be avoided, if Allah has preordained I drink wine then I can't avoid that choice rendering me not free. Every time I argue this it become more clear to me that the whole concept is meaningless. It's like a teacher who preassigned grades to you and then claims you can achieve higher. Nothing I do will prevent me from going to hell or heaven.

 

[TheLibertarianQuiche]

You know, Muslims would've got away with the argument that 'the choice is ours but that Allah knows.'

The only reason why they can't get way Scot free is because Allah supposedly decreed everything that will happen "50,000 years before Adam was created" in al-Lawh ul-Mahfudh including the 'choices' we make.

So no, he's not just a knowledgeable witness but also an active player in our affairs according to Islam.

No that is incorrect. Allah is not an active player in your life but rather a knowledgable by-stander.

Put it this way, if your parents and friends know out of 2 decisions which one you would choose, how much would the Creator of humanity know about you.

The point is you have freewill but Allah already knows what you are going to do, who you are going to marry and so on. Allah will know that you like to get your coffee from Starbucks but will choose to get it from a boutique shop tomorrow.

How many events has Allah decreed that has come true, yet people who were born Muslim don't believe? Ya Allah.

 

[The_Cosmos]

No that is incorrect. Allah is not an active player in your life but rather a knowledgable by-stander.

Put it this way, if your parents and friends know out of 2 decisions which one you would choose, how much would the Creator of humanity know about you.

The point is you have freewill but Allah already knows what you are going to do, who you are going to marry and so on. Allah will know that you like to get your coffee from Starbucks but will choose to get it from a boutique shop tomorrow.

How many events has Allah decreed that has come true, yet people who were born Muslim don't believe? Ya Allah.

Read the entire thing mate, it's been answered.

 

[TheLibertarianQuiche]

Read the entire thing mate, it's been answered.

I understand that but hear me out.

Your mother knows who you are and what you will do probably 90% of the time. Who is to say that Allah is not capable of knowing exactly what you will do.

When Allah decreed that fulaan will die a kaafir then thats him saying 'From looking at this person, I can definitely ascertain that the decisions he will take will lead him to Jahanam'. Your time on this earth is to prove Allah right so that when you are raised from your grave that you will not say that you didn't have a fair go. He already knows what you are going to do from the opportunity he has given you, because he is all knowing.

 

[Transparent]

I understand that but hear me out.

Your mother knows who you are and what you will do probably 90% of the time. Who is to say that Allah is not capable of knowing exactly what you will do.

When Allah decreed that fulaan will die a kaafir then thats him saying 'From looking at this person, I can definitely ascertain that the decisions he will take will lead him to Jahanam'. Your time on this earth is to prove Allah right so that when you are raised from your grave that you will not say that you didn't have a fair go. He already knows what you are going to do from the opportunity he has given you, because he is all knowing.

spot on brother

 

[The_Cosmos]

I understand that but hear me out.

Your mother knows who you are and what you will do probably 90% of the time. Who is to say that Allah is not capable of knowing exactly what you will do.

When Allah decreed that fulaan will die a kaafir then thats him saying 'From looking at this person, I can definitely ascertain that the decisions he will take will lead him to Jahanam'. Your time on this earth is to prove Allah right so that when you are raised from your grave that you will not say that you didn't have a fair go. He already knows what you are going to do from the opportunity he has given you, because he is all knowing.

Like I said to someone else, you're making bogus comparisons. Allah knows your exact moves long before you were born, in fact, long before he created anything. My mother only predicts my moves and she can be wrong. The comparison only works if you believe Allah can be wrong.

As to your other point, it's still bogus. A choice has to be more than two options to be a choice and they should all be equally be avoidable. If you can't avoid an option then the rest become void. For example, if it written that I drink wine today then I cannot un-drink it. That choice had been taken away from me via Allah's omniscient nature. There is no test if you already know the outcome, it defies its purpose.

 

[Lucifer]

No that is incorrect. Allah is not an active player in your life but rather a knowledgable by-stander.

Put it this way, if your parents and friends know out of 2 decisions which one you would choose, how much would the Creator of humanity know about you.

The point is you have freewill but Allah already knows what you are going to do, who you are going to marry and so on. Allah will know that you like to get your coffee from Starbucks but will choose to get it from a boutique shop tomorrow.

How many events has Allah decreed that has come true, yet people who were born Muslim don't believe? Ya Allah.

Allah is definitely a active player according to muslim scripture.

The prophet (S.A.W.S.) said:

Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas, Once I was behind the Prophet and he said: “O boy, I will teach you a few words:

• Be loyal and obedient to Allâh [worship Him (Alone)], remember Him always, obey His Orders. He will save you from every evil and will take care of you in all the spheres of life.
• Be loyal and obedient to Allâh, you will find Him near (in front of you) i.e. He will respond to your requests.
• If you ask, ask Allâh.
• If you seek help, seek help from Allah.

This shows that Allah is not a sitting on the side lines but is rather active in the Muslim life and other life's too since he supposedly destroyed the town of Lut, brought upon havoc by flooding the planet etc etc nay ! He is very active.

On to the second point about Allah just being a knowledgeable authority who stands by and only watches and thus you have free will, let's see how much of a true statement that is.

57. Surah Al-Hadid (Iron)
22. No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah.

This shows every action every move every word that is been uttered has been written in this tablet before mankind was created, so everything that we have done or will do has been set in stone completely shattering the concept of free will in Islam

 

[Madara x]

Madara Uchiha, good posts bro. I am an amateur compared to you, so make sure you stick around. Your inputs are excellent man. For me to say something will be similar to throwing salvos behind an older brother for protection. You are doing good.

Lol how did you know my last name? You must be a naruto fan. loool

I rate you for that still. And thanks for the kind words my friend. I'm new on here and inshallah i'll be on here for a while.

X=Malcom
Madara=uchicha

Long live the uchiha's

 

[Madara x]

To you they may be open but to god there is only one potential reality and that the one whom he has preordained. This only works if you believe Allah is fully omniscient.

Nonetheless, if freedom of will and choices aren't real, then the whole test is made void. I'm I wrong?

I guess it pretty much is but i'm a sucker for philosophical debates Hence my involvement here.

 

[InaCabdulqadir]

You know, Muslims would've got away with the argument that 'the choice is ours but that Allah knows.'

The only reason why they can't get way Scot free is because Allah supposedly decreed everything that will happen "50,000 years before Adam was created" in al-Lawh ul-Mahfudh including the 'choices' we make.

So no, he's not just a knowledgeable witness but also an active player in our affairs according to Islam.

By this same logic, that we have a choice but that Allah knows, we can also get away with the Lauh Ul Mahfudh. The reason for this being, if we have a choice whilst Allah's prior knowledge exists, then how does it affect our choice if He preserves this knowledge in the Lauh Ul Mahfudh?

 

[TheLibertarianQuiche]

Allah is definitely a active player according to muslim scripture.

The prophet (S.A.W.S.) said:

Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas, Once I was behind the Prophet and he said: “O boy, I will teach you a few words:

• Be loyal and obedient to Allâh [worship Him (Alone)], remember Him always, obey His Orders. He will save you from every evil and will take care of you in all the spheres of life.
• Be loyal and obedient to Allâh, you will find Him near (in front of you) i.e. He will respond to your requests.
• If you ask, ask Allâh.
• If you seek help, seek help from Allah.

This shows that Allah is not a sitting on the side lines but is rather active in the Muslim life and other life's too since he supposedly destroyed the town of Lut, brought upon havoc by flooding the planet etc etc nay ! He is very active.

On to the second point about Allah just being a knowledgeable authority who stands by and only watches and thus you have free will, let's see how much of a true statement that is.

57. Surah Al-Hadid (Iron)
22. No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuz), before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah.

This shows every action every move every word that is been uttered has been written in this tablet before mankind was created, so everything that we have done or will do has been set in stone completely shattering the concept of free will in Islam

Yes but Allah knows whether you will take those opportunities to redeem yourself. Allah is active but requires you to make the first step towards forgiveness and only he knows whether you will do that.

 

[Burhan]

Lol how did you know my last name? You must be a naruto fan. loool

I rate you for that still. And thanks for the kind words my friend. I'm new on here and inshallah i'll be on here for a while.

X=Malcom
Madara=uchicha

Long live the uchiha's

I am a big fan. They release the new episodes still on Thursdays and I watch these in one go once a month. I like anime. I had this photo below on the other day as my avatar of Madara. You can have it if you like. I have many in a folder on my desktop. Been to Japan as well for vacation. It was fun.

 

[The_Cosmos]

I guess it pretty much is but i'm a sucker for philosophical debates Hence my involvement here.

Philosophical debates are awesome!

 

[Madara x]

I am a big fan. They release the new episodes still on Thursdays and I watch these in one go once a month. I like anime. I had this photo below on the other day as my avatar of Madara. You can have it if you like. I have many in a folder on my desktop. Been to Japan as well for vacation. It was fun.

Glad to know that there are naruto fans like me on the site

The pic is gangsta, i just changed my avatar!! Thanks alot

Long live the uchiha clan

 

[Burhan]

Glad to know that there are naruto fans like me on the site

The pic is gangsta, i just changed my avatar!! Thanks alot

Long live the uchiha clan

Cool bro. My favorite story in Naruto was the Senju and Uchiha clans history.

 

[Inquisitive_]

@The_Cosmos

Your an absolute total ignoramus moron, why? because in your evolutionary world view, there is no free will, it's all pre-determined, all your Europhile God's of Evolution believe in 'determinism' not 'free will'

You are insulting not just your own intelligence her and exposing your lack of even foundational knowledge on this topic, but also committing heresy upon Darwin, Dawkins, Hawkins and the rest of them whom all believe that your molecular make up already pre-determines everything about you! you have absolutely no free-will whatsoever if you submit to their world view as you do.

You have just been exposed once again as a ignorant charlatan, you can't even make the rational deduction that if all you are is a collection of atoms, molecules and chemical reactions, it's all preprogrammed and pre-determined which is very basic and elementary if you believe in evolution.

Your limited brain is even incapable of making those very simple rational distinction, damn! I have only just started reading these quackademic crap, and this is only the first topic I have opened in this section (after my own), pathetic, so pathetic.

@Burhan

How did you guys miss this self insulting statement he made and complete utter heresy he has committed upon his own Europhile Gods ?

I cannot believe what I am reading, I thought this dude knew at least 5% of the evolutionary Europhile God's view, the very basic's he doesn't even understand, his God's don't even believe in freewill but 'determinism', how did you guys miss this? why did no one even mention this?

@simulacrum @VixR

That Cosmos dude is your typical awakened rational individual, a dude that just came out attacking a people for something his own Europhile God's of evolution utterly dismiss.

By unanimous consensus every Europhile evolution believing God has openly come out and said 'there is no free will' only 'determinism' except Dawkins who is a bit deluded and tries to side step the issue but also believes in, he is a bit torn of course and highly confused as you would expect, below I have en except of his interview on determinism a topic all his God fathers believe in vehemently. Let' see.

Questioner: Dr. Dawkins thank you for your comments. The thing I have appreciated most about your comments is your consistency in the things I’ve seen you written. One of the areas that I wanted to ask you about and the places where I think there is an inconsistency and I hoped you would clarify it is that in what I’ve read you seem to take a position of a strong determinist who says that what we see around us is the product of physical laws playing themselves out but on the other hand it would seem that you would do things like taking credit for writing this book and things like that. But it would seem, and this isn’t to be funny, that the consistent position would be that necessarily the authoring of this book from the initial condition of the big bang it was set that this would be the product of what we see today. I would take it that that would be the consistent position but I wanted to know what you thought about that.


Dawkins: The philosophical question of determinism is a very difficult question. It’s not one I discuss in this book, indeed in any other book that I’ve ever talked about. Now an extreme determinist, as the questioner says, might say that everything we do, everything we think, everything that we write, has been determined from the beginning of time in which case the very idea of taking credit for anything doesn’t seem to make any sense. Now I don’t actually know what I actually think about that, I haven’t taken up a position about that, it’s not part of my remit to talk about the philosophical issue of determinism. What I do know is that what it feels like to me, and I think to all of us, we don’t feel determined. We feel like blaming people for what they do or giving people the credit for what they do. We feel like admiring people for what they do. None of us ever actually as a matter of fact says, “Oh well he couldn’t help doing it, he was determined by his molecules.”

Questioner: But do you personally see that as an inconsistency in your views?

Dawkins: I sort of do. Yes. But it is an inconsistency that we sort of have to live with otherwise life would be intolerable

https://notesfrombabel.wordpress.com/2009/04/25/richard-dawkins-on-free-will/

 

[simulacrum]

Of course we have free will, we have no other choice

 

[The_Cosmos]

@Inquisitive_

We have free will and Heisenberg's principle of uncertainty has clearly proven this, but I am arguing that it isn't the case from the perspective of an omniscient and omnipotent God.