the concept of god

[Burhan]

God introduced him self to men and what is your concrete evidence that god did such a thing ?

Through established traditions in human history, through books given to communities culminating with the Quran. At least, one would be wise to examine the claims without dismissing them first hand.

It seems human beings no matter when and where they lived, they worshiped God the right way or the wrong way, but God was There amidst them. Greeks had many Gods, Romans similar. Mention any civilization, they worshipped something/someone they named god.

It is human to worship. It is as if we are born with the instinct to worship God. Islam at least teaches so.

 

[Burhan]

Speaking of Greeks, they had god figure for everything they were amazed with, Like the God of Iron(blacksmiths). They weren't wrong to think Iron was heavenly in the sense that today we know Iron landed on earth from space(in the form of meteorites). Through the Quran Allah stated he sent down Iron from heaven for our Use.

Every nation, tribes, society, civilization were obsessed with the heaven and God saxib.

 

[Lucifer]

Actually, parents give training to their kids and send them to driving schools before they let their kids get into the driver seat. They would not put their kids in danger like that. So your example of parents is an argument for God and strengthens the propositions:

So now your back to comparing God again to the likes of human beings, not surprising in the least, and tell me again why does God need to come down and explain things or give training to human beings what makes us so special! that a infinitely powerful being makes time for us primitive lowly earth dwellers.

 

[Burhan]

So now your back to comparing God again to the likes of human beings, not surprising in the least, and tell me again why does God need to come down and explain things or give training to human beings what makes us so special! that a infinitely powerful being makes time for us primitive lowly earth dwellers.

Well actually no brother, Allah himself says he gives us parables to understand something. Allah said if the Earth were inhabited by Angels, he would send Angels only to them. Just out of fairness. Human for human, Human for human language so they understand the communique.

So I am not out of place to give you a parable using a human example.

 

[Lucifer]

Through established traditions in human history, through books given to communities culminating with the Quran. At least, one would be wise to examine the claims without dismissing them first hand.

It seems human beings no matter when and where they lived, they worshiped God the right way or the wrong way, but God was There amidst them. Greeks had many Gods, Romans similar. Mention any civilization, they worshipped something/someone they named god.

It is human to worship. It is as if we are born with the instinct to worship God. Islam at least teaches so.

So basically words written on paper in books that is your evidence ! nothing scientifically verifiable.

By the way traditions are human construct not brought down by God but made by humans.

Definition of tradition:

an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable.

 

[Burhan]

Actually, parents give training to their kids and send them to driving schools before they let their kids get into the driver seat. They would not put their kids in danger like that. So your example of parents is an argument for God and strengthens the propositions:

So now your back to comparing God again to the likes of human beings, not surprising in the least, and tell me again why does God need to come down and explain things or give training to human beings what makes us so special! that a infinitely powerful being makes time for us primitive lowly earth dwellers.

And you are special as a human btw, Allah made you special representative on Earth. That is why the message to re-enforce this honor and make you succeed in life comes in the form of books, quran being the latest. This is big honor and it is why I am an environmentalist among other things hahahahahahaha.

 

[Burhan]

So basically words written on paper in books that is your evidence ! nothing scientifically verifiable.

By the way traditions are human construct not brought down by God but made by humans.

Definition of tradition:

an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable.

Right, Only words written, containing claims no human is well placed to claim. Science makes that case strong for me in that no human being like me(or another entity devoid of intellect) can put something so marvelous as you, an ape, a horse, the earth, the planets, the heavenly stars together etc. It is what is in the book that generates my respect for the creator that I see through nature as well. How good he is.

Unlike you, I don't use science to replace faith in that creator, I rather use it to re-enforce my beliefs in him. Because he actually says look around you and think. God in his infinite wisdom appeals to my intellect and directs me to examine myself, to look inwards and everything else to strengthen my faith in him. To me, science and religion re-enforce each other.

 

[Lucifer]

And you are special as a human btw, Allah made you special representative on Earth. That is why the message to re-enforce this honor and make you succeed in life comes in the form of books, quran being the latest. This is big honor and it is why I am an environmentalist among other things hahahahahahaha.

That Day We will fold up heaven like folding up the pages of a book. As We originated the first creation so We will regenerate it. It is a promise binding on Us. That is what We will do. (Qur'an, 21:104)

Yeah i don't think the world let alone the whole universe revolves around us, to make such a claim one has to be arrogant beyond belief, if you want to think that your a special snow flake and the universe will be folded up because your on trial that's up to you, but I know I'm nothing special nor does the universe revolve around me.

Right, Only words written, containing claims no human is well placed to claim. Science makes that case strong for me in that no human being like me can put something so marvelous as you, an ape, a horse, the earth, the planets, the heavenly stars together etc. It is what is in the book that generates my respect for the creator that I see through nature as well. How good he is.

Unlike you, I don't use science to replace faith in that creator, I rather use it to re-enforce my beliefs in him. Because he actually says look around you and think. God in his infinite wisdom appeals to my intellect and directs me to examine myself, to look inwards and everything else to strengthen my faith in him. To me, science and religion re-enforce each other.

Yes indeed when such a great claim is made i need scientifically verifiable evidence, whereas you operate on blind faith that's where we differ at.

 

[Burhan]

That Day We will fold up heaven like folding up the pages of a book. As We originated the first creation so We will regenerate it. It is a promise binding on Us. That is what We will do. (Qur'an, 21:104)

Yeah i don't think the world let alone the whole universe revolves around us, to make such a claim one has to be arrogant beyond belief, if you want to think that your a special snow flake and the universe will be folded up because your on trial that's up to you, but I know I'm nothing special nor does the universe revolve around me.



Yes indeed when such a great claim is made i need scientifically verifiable evidence, whereas you operate on blind faith that's where we differ at.

If the Universe expands, it can also contract and fold. Some physicists predicted that scenario and called their prediction "Cosmological Collapse". Perhaps the verse indirectly states that. And even if the verse plainly means that Allah will at some point fold the universe to bring about day of judgment, to me that is given. I do not question the creator since I accepted him in the first place. Nothing is impossible for him to do. I know if I asked special evidence tailored to me so I can have faith in him, that would beat the purpose of the struggle in life with the faith itself as a means to proof my loyalty as a servant of his exercising his free-will. Plus such demands would not be honored as we read in the QURAN how others demanded similar favors so they could believe in God and accept their prophet's messages of faith in the day of judgment.

As for the ability to recreate something one originated in the first place, we see it happen everyday in our lives. You design something, you keep the schematic, then reproduce that effortlessly if you wanted to. Allah who originates everything is more capable and his claim of recreating fits right within his domain.


We don't get special evidence tailored to our individual's demands and needs. We get the same evidence everybody got, some of us reject, some of us take faith in it. That is how it was always.


Thanks for being civil and not having an agenda you come here with other than expressing your views and what you think. I appreciate that you didn't engage in uncivilized behavior. You are entitled to your views as a capable human being and I recognize that. Forgive me for any slight or dig I aimed at you.

 

[Lucifer]

If the Universe expands, it can also contract and fold. Some physicists predicted that scenario and called their prediction "Cosmological Collapse". Perhaps the verse indirectly states that. And even if the verse plainly means that Allah will at some point fold the universe to bring about day of judgment, to me that is given. I do not question the creator since I accepted him in the first place. Nothing is impossible for him to do. I know if I asked special evidence tailored to me so I can have faith in him, that would beat the purpose of the struggle in life with the faith itself as a means to proof my loyalty as a servant of his exercising his free-will. Plus such demands would not be honored as we read in the QURAN how others demanded similar favors so they could believe in God and accept their prophet's messages of faith in the day of judgment.

As for the ability to recreate something one originated in the first place, we see it happen everyday in our lives. You design something, you keep the schematic, then reproduce that effortlessly if you wanted to. Allah who originates everything is more capable and his claim of recreating fits right within his domain.


We don't get special evidence tailored to our individual's demands and needs. We get the same evidence everybody got, some of us reject, some of us take faith in it. That is how it was always.


Thanks for being civil and not having an agenda you come here with other than expressing your views and what you think. I appreciate that you didn't engage in uncivilized behavior. You are entitled to your views as a capable human being and I recognize that. Forgive me for any slight or dig I aimed at you.

I've read about the cosmological collapse, is just a suggested theory that came about through the argument wether the universe will forever keep expanding or stop expanding or eventually cease to exist/collapse in it self, but to me that creates a paradox if this universe collapses in it self will there be a new big bang ? and start up a new universe again and also the physicists are saying this process might take tens of billions of years maybe even trillions of years before the universe collapses in it self or just stop expanding but all of this is mere speculation nothing more, but nonetheless a speculation that concides with the folding up of the universe that is mentioned in the Quran did I sense a twinge of bias confirmation ? maybe...

Anyway I didn't come on here to convince any one of anything, and even if I wanted to do so it would be a futile effort as I learned the hard way you can't convice no one of nothing, but to me religion is not for me.

 

[dhegdheer]

Dhegta, I do realize you never paid attention to what your parents taught you about Islam and God almighty. But just in case, here is a refresher out of the Quran collecting dust on your shelf(to mislead your mom of course and make her think you are a muslim).



"And if Allah were to seize mankind for their wrong-doing, He would not leave on it (the earth) a single moving (living) creature, but He postpones them for an appointed term and when their term comes, neither can they delay nor can they advance it an hour (or a moment). Quran (Surah An-Nahl, Verse 61)"


FACT:

Allah ignores plenty of our sins and is not quick to punish anyone. Out of his grace and kindness, you will come back to bad mouth him or write on the forums enjoying from his boundless mercy.


PS: I got the vitamins delivered to me at work now btw.

Have some decency naayaa and read up your Quran.

My god you're a c*nt... don't you get tired of acting offended all the time? you're literally all over this post replying to everyone, chill

Are we still doing this thing where you act like apostates don't know anything about the deen? because it's quiet boring, I've read the quran many times thank you, keep your verses. Lmao @ the hooyo dig, she already knows sxb I won't have to pretend

I hope you choke on your vitamins

 

[Burhan]

My god you're a c*nt... don't you get tired of acting offended all the time? you're literally all over this post replying to everyone, chill

Are we still doing this thing where you act like apostates don't know anything about the deen? because it's quiet boring, I've read the quran many times thank you, keep your verses. Lmao @ the hooyo dig, she already knows sxb I won't have to pretend

I hope you choke on your vitamins

LOOL@c*nt, the irony here is too funny. haye, you are an expert dear.

And,, I plan to choke on the vitamin. I needed balanced nutrition being Nomad. My diet sucks.

I wish you good luck. Bye Now.

 

[simulacrum]

@Inquisitive_ KKKKK not all ''Europhiles'' agree with each other sxb. Just like there is no agreement between Muslims when it comes to shape of the earth, interpretation of scriptures and evolution. The theory of evolution was already speculated by a Muslim scholar way before Darwin but the vast majority of you guys still dismiss it as heresy.

Now I'm not fully disagreeing with what Dawkins and Harris are saying. We are to a certain extent biologically determined. You could use your common sense for that without needing to look at our brains at the microscopic level. The fact that we don't get to choose our parents, genes, our brain, body, the environment etc.. tells me that we don't really have free will in it's broadest and absolute sense. However, we could possibly have some semblance of free will and there are few scientists/philosophers who are arguing for a strong subjective case (non-reductionist) or some are using the argument from Heisenberg with his uncertainty principle(reductionist).

As a pragmatist, I like to think that we do have a free will because that assumes you are responsible for all the choices you make in life and you can be held accountable for it. I think free will is an emergent phenomenon and it can only be made intelligible at the macroscopic level and not in the world of atoms bumping to each other or the firing of neurons in our brains. A psychologist, for example, is not going to ask a spreadsheet of your particles and molecules in order to diagnose your mental disorder.

 

[Layth]

@simulacrum I don't think I've ever come across an individual who's as bold to spew sheer garbage believing them to be arguments that actually hold weight, to say your posts are a continual display of compounded ignorance is a gross understatement. I'm not basing my judgement on your posts on this thread alone btw.

The theory of evolution was already speculated by a Muslim scholar way before Darwin but the vast majority of you guys still dismiss it as heresy.

This is a classic example of argumentum ad verecundiam, a type of logical fallacy. The total number of Muslim scholars who have appeared to have supported the whole evolution narrative are in the single digits; their opinions were not based on either the Qur'an or Sunnah so I fail to see the relevance of mentioning their affiliation with the religion of Islam. We don't blindly follow our scholars (since we know that they're not immune to erring) similar to the way you lot blindly & frantically latch onto whatever your "experts" espouse as if their words and opinions were the gospel truth.

KKKKK not all ''Europhiles'' agree with each other sxb

Lol he admits that there's hardly consensus among scientists regarding any of the mainstream scientific theories. So basically you adhere to the madhab of whatever scientist(s) barks the loudest or is known to have won the hearts of the majority of the Europhiles huh? No way can you be well-versed enough in every one of the wide array of scientific fields to form opinions on them, not even in two lifetimes of rigorous study.

At least us Muslims have a core worldview, whereas you're susceptible to being pushed to whatever direction the wind is blowing for the day.

As a pragmatist, I like to think that we do have a free will because that assumes you are responsible for all the choices you make in life and you can be held accountable for it. I think free will is an emergent phenomenon and it can only be made intelligible at the macroscopic level and not in the world of atoms bumping to each other or the firing of neurons in our brains. A psychologist, for example, is not going to ask a spreadsheet of your particles and molecules in order to diagnose your mental disorder.

At least a mental disorder is a result of physical disequilibrium, meaning it's possible (in theory) to undergo diagnosis on a molecular level to detect which parts, when in accumulation are responsible for the mental disorder. Can you say the same for freewill and other metaphysical phenomena?


Back to the drawing board for you, Europhile. Next time make sure it’s not a cursory compilation of utter nonsense.

@Inquisitive_ Clearly an insurmountable number of Europhile brain parasites have infested this patient's cerebral cortex and guzzled his neurons to the point where any hope for thorough treatment is out of the question.

 

[simulacrum]

@Layth The reason I mentioned the fact that not all scientists are in agreement with each other is to show that there isn't such thing as 100 procent consensus on various subjects, the same with Muslims. Proof>> The muslim scholar in the past and other muslims who believe in evolution, interpretation of scriptures>>>10000000 denominations.

How is this a faulty argument to use against the assertion of Inquisitive that all Europhiles are supposed to be in agreement with each other? Sometimes, a cigarette is a cigarette. There is no complexity involved. Easy to understand. Do you really need my admission to grasp this?

You asserted there is ''hardly'' any consensus in mainstream scientific theories. When did I say this? Since when is free will a scientific theory? I'll dismiss this as being deliberately obtuse. Because you can't be this dense sxb. KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

Then you went onto say that at least Muslims have a core worldview. KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK Of course you have an unchanging worldview when impugning is going to get you killed. Science, conversely, promotes criticism because that's the only way progress is made. Look at the difference of performance in terms of technology between the Europhiles and the Islamic world. Need I say more?

Oy vey I agree with you that mental disorders can be better understood with the supplementary aid of brain scans. Perhaps it's a poor example on my part. What I meant by that is when you ask me what's the weather is like or what is the temperature in my room. I'm not going to answer you back in molecules and particles. That would be absurd.

What do you mean by metaphysical phenomena? Because our mind is still subjected to the immutable laws of physics.

 

[Burhan]

I've read about the cosmological collapse, is just a suggested theory that came about through the argument wether the universe will forever keep expanding or stop expanding or eventually cease to exist/collapse in it self, but to me that creates a paradox if this universe collapses in it self will there be a new big bang ? and start up a new universe again and also the physicists are saying this process might take tens of billions of years maybe even trillions of years before the universe collapses in it self or just stop expanding but all of this is mere speculation nothing more, but nonetheless a speculation that concides with the folding up of the universe that is mentioned in the Quran did I sense a twinge of bias confirmation ? maybe...

Anyway I didn't come on here to convince any one of anything, and even if I wanted to do so it would be a futile effort as I learned the hard way you can't convice no one of nothing, but to me religion is not for me.

You are reasonable. Anyone comfortable in their own skin and choices is also comfortable to let others be themselves. You show that characteristic. Unlike some who are making a career out of arguing with others about their religion on a daily basis and parrot material from wikis and other sources.

Since religion is not for you, I wish you good luck and I have no further discussion with you on the subject. I am cool with others being without faith. It doesn't concern me or bother me. As long as people are not commenting derisively on what is not for them, others should have no reason to bother them either. Respect is mutual.

 

[Inquisitive_]

@simulacrum

What a charlatan cheap way of trying to pass this off like some disagreement in the Europhile community, the determinism camp is 90%+, hilarious how you are accepting partial determinism and the rest of the fancy semantic, to tip-toe around the issue like the apologist that you are.

Determinism is everything including your behaviour and choices you make, when we discuss free-will, no one assumes race, parents, colour, but only about the 'choices' and the free 'will' you over those chemical reactions taking place, to separate them is absurd.

In your Europhile community upwards 90%+ the believe is that everything is determined as Sam Harris clearly puts it, Dawkins and Hawkins arrive at the same conclusions after mindless walking around the block hoping no one sees them.

Heisenberg is a physicist, so his whole theory and quantum malarky is not coming from biological quantum stand point, his principle is refused by his own Europhile overlord's and he is just less then 1% of those that hold his view in the Europhile God community.

It's funny how you turn to that 1%, ignore the rest, then try to argue like a cheap charlatan that we are partially determined, drifting off into the lunacy about genes, race, colour and parents, totally ignoring choice, will and behaviour, pathetic absolutely pathetic, then again I didn't expect more from the Europhile community anyway, the brain parasite has altered your mind.

@Layth

He went from "we have free will" then when exposed said "we are partially determined", then seperate his molecular make up, trying to do something that was never done before, to state that this part of atom/molecules dealing with race, colour and parents are determined, while the molecular/atoms dealing with choice, behaviour are 'free will'

This is the worst form of blind believe, not even his Europhile overlord God's argue these positions, incredible, just incredible.

 

[Layth]

@Layth The reason I mentioned the fact that not all scientists are in agreement with each other is to show that there isn't such thing as 100 procent consensus on various subjects, the same with Muslims. Proof>> The muslim scholar in the past and other muslims who believe in evolution, interpretation of scriptures>>>10000000 denominations.

Looks like I was on to something when I describing the critical condition that your mind is in.


The Muslims' core world-views and stance on various of matters are uniform. The same cannot be said for atheists. It's outrageously flawed to compare yourself to Muslims in this regard.

Scientists are in discord regarding the main scientific theories that are literally responsible for shaping one's core world-view. Many of which you'd be forced to blindly accept since it's impossible for you to be well-versed enough in those areas to formulate opinions. Thus, your world-view revolves around blind-following false Gods, capiche?

What if every scientist rejected the evolution theory in union tomorrow because a new theory has been conjured up that's perhaps more convincing (according to them anyway)? You'd follow suit right? Even though you don't understand what the new theory is all about and never will... Nor did you understand the old theory that has been discarded.

You left Islam for these scientific theories when scientists will themselves leave these theories for other theories tomorrow.

That's why I made this statement:

you're susceptible to being pushed to whatever direction the wind is blowing for the day.

In before someone says "how can someone's worldview be shaped by a theory they don't understand". It can (though vaguely), just like our intellectually incapacitated friend simulacrum here believes in evolution, but only grasps it at a superficial level, if at all. For example, any Europhile can say "WE WUZ APEZ" but that doesn't mean they understand the evolution theory and what consists of it at a deeper level.

I know the main point you were making was that views of atheists differ, but I've stated the above because I personally made it a point to make mention of those facts.

You asserted there is ''hardly'' any consensus in mainstream scientific theories. When did I say this? Since when is free will a scientific theory? I'll dismiss this as being deliberately obtuse. Because you can't be this dense sxb. KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

Free will was not included in that categorization. Show me where I said freewill is a scientific theory? #Awkward

You didn't have to explicitly state the fact that there's hardly any consensus in mainstream scientific theories. Everyone knows this, at least that's what I thought. For instance, do you know how many different versions of the evolution theory there are alone?

Doqon waxid

Then you went onto say that at least Muslims have a core worldview. KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK Of course you have an unchanging worldview when impugning is going to get you killed. Science, conversely, promotes criticism because that's the only way progress is made. Look at the difference of performance in terms of technology between the Europhiles and the Islamic world. Need I say more?

Why don't we look at the difference of performance between the Europhiles & the Muslim world during the first half of the 2nd millennium and a few centuries before that? Muslims are not behind due to the teachings of their religion, rather they're behind as a result of neglecting the teachings of Islam which encourages Muslims to excel in all spheres, including science.

The core, unchanging worldview of Muslims does not handicap scientific progression. My evidence is the Islamic golden age. Next

You might (foolishly) say "b-but Muslims are told to believe Allah created the earth, so they can't investigate, period". The exact opposite is true. It would actually be a noble endeavor (even Islamically) to investigate the origins of the universe since it could be a means of confirming what was said in the scripture and strengthening our faith in Allah (SWT).

It's permitted in Islam to freely criticize a scientific theory. Criticism is encouraged in this realm.

Here's a crazy fact: it was actually not the catholic church that took the initiative to order Galileo to be ostracized. That was originally the idea of other scientists (those so-called people who encourage free-thought). Just like how @Inquisitive_ is attacked on this forum for having a different opinion regarding the figure of the earth. Political correctness & free thought/speech are an oxymoron.

I'm not going to answer you back in molecules and particles.

Now you're assuming that in theory, it's possible to explain free will in a molecular/particle/physical level which there's simply no evidence for. Hence why Inquisitive made the assumption that you won't believe in the notion of free will, since there's simply no observable evidence for it.

Because our mind is still subjected to the immutable laws of physics.

You've indirectly assumed that free will is a function of the mind which is in turn (as you claim) "immutable to the laws of physics."

YOU'VE JUST CLAIMED THAT FREE WILL DOESN'T EXIST LOL!


Free will is either an aspect of the immaterial soul or part of our biological makeup (which means we don't really have free will). Choose one

Inquisitive, I think this Europhile is officially brain dead.

Edit:

 

[The_Cosmos]

Looks like I was on to something when I describing the critical condition that your mind is in.


The Muslims' core world-views and stance on various of matters are uniform. The same cannot be said for atheists. It's outrageously flawed to compare yourself to Muslims in this regard.

Scientists are in discord regarding the main scientific theories that are literally responsible for shaping one's core world-view. Many of which you'd be forced to blindly accept since it's impossible for you to be well-versed enough in those areas to formulate opinions. Thus, your world-view revolves around blind-following false Gods, capiche?

What if every scientist rejected the evolution theory in union tomorrow because a new theory has been conjured up that's perhaps more convincing (according to them anyway)? You'd follow suit right? Even though you don't understand what the new theory is all about and never will... Nor did you understand the old theory that has been discarded.

You left Islam for these scientific theories when scientists will themselves leave these theories for other theories tomorrow.

That's why I made this statement:


In before someone says "how can someone's worldview be shaped by a theory they don't understand". It can (though vaguely), just like our intellectually incapacitated friend simulacrum here believes in evolution, but only grasps it at a superficial level, if at all. For example, any Europhile can say "WE WUZ APEZ" but that doesn't mean they understand the evolution theory and what consists of it at a deeper level.

I know the main point you were making was that views of atheists differ, but I've stated the above because I personally made it a point to make mention of those facts.


Free will was not included in that categorization. Show me where I said freewill is a scientific theory? #Awkward

You didn't have to explicitly state the fact that there's hardly any consensus in mainstream scientific theories. Everyone knows this, at least that's what I thought. For instance, do you know how many different versions of the evolution theory there are alone?

Doqon waxid


Why don't we look at the difference of performance between the Europhiles & the Muslim world during the first half of the 2nd millennium and a few centuries before that? Muslims are not behind due to the teachings of their religion, rather they're behind as a result of neglecting the teachings of Islam which encourages Muslims to excel in all spheres, including science.

The core, unchanging worldview of Muslims does not handicap scientific progression. My evidence is the Islamic golden age. Next

You might (foolishly) say "b-but Muslims are told to believe Allah created the earth, so they can't investigate, period". The exact opposite is true. It would actually be a noble endeavor (even Islamically) to investigate the origins of the universe since it could be a means of confirming what was said in the scripture and strengthening our faith in Allah (SWT).

It's permitted in Islam to freely criticize a scientific theory. Criticism is encouraged in this realm.

Here's a crazy fact: it was actually not the catholic church that took the initiative to order Galileo to be ostracized. That was originally the idea of other scientists (those so-called people who encourage free-thought). Just like how @Inquisitive_ is attacked on this forum for having a different opinion regarding the figure of the earth. Political correctness & free thought/speech are an oxymoron.


Now you're assuming that in theory, it's possible to explain free will in a molecular/particle/physical level which there's simply no evidence for. Hence why Inquisitive made the assumption that you won't believe in the notion of free will, since there's simply no observable evidence for it.


You've indirectly assumed that free will is a function of the mind which is in turn (as you claim) "immutable to the laws of physics."

YOU'VE JUST CLAIMED THAT FREE WILL DOESN'T EXIST LOL!


Free will is either an aspect of the immaterial soul or part of our biological makeup (which means we don't really have free will). Choose one

Inquisitive, I think this Europhile is officially brain dead.

Edit:

You have regurgitated claims of ignorance against someone without any real evidence. You have also made arguments for religion which in reality is arguments against religion.

There is a consensus amongst the scientific community that evolution is a fact of science. This is not an argument for evolution but an argument against the claim that scientists are in discord regarding the main scientific theories. The consensus is comprised of all the major scientific communities around the world and the percentage is around 98% in favour of evolution. This is of course built upon the astounding evidence for evolution with which whom you deny because of its clear conflict with your strong held religious beliefs. Muslims don't make a big deal about Germ theory, atomic theory, theory of gravity and some would even claim that the Big Bang theory is described in the Quran. There's an interesting cognitive dissonance in claiming not to be a blind follower but conveniently denying that which does not support your religious presumptions even though they contradict the evidence. What's more interesting is how you make the claim that we are blind followers of science whilst completely, out of lack of self awareness, ignoring how your religion is built upon blind faith. There is no evidence Muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse, no evidence for incest mating via Adam's children giving birth to humanity, no evidence that Moses split the sea, Solomon spoke to ants, Moe splitting the Moon and the biggest one, no evidence for the existence of God. Faith is by definition meant to be blind because otherwise it wouldn't be faith, it would be reality that is backed by evidence.

http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2016/02/FT_16.02.12_darwinDay_420px.png

You made the point that science and changes whilst religion stays the same, implying that it's almost a disadvantage against science when in reality that is its biggest advantage. Science is built on evidentiary integrity which basically means that science works on evidence. If a widely held belief among scientists that was previously supported by evidence is later on rebuked by new evidence, science gladly changes its position. That is why we owe science so much. The very internet that we all use is a product of science. I read somewhere that it was first invented as a means for scientists to communicate with each other irregardless of their location. It was a means to exchange data. Nonetheless, it was invented thanks to the scientific method. Now, compare this to religion. What has religion given humans that can be scaled on the level of science? Religion, addressing Islam and Abrahamic faiths, are built on arrogance and a false, narcissistic sense of specialty. In Islam the stars are lamps adorned to beautify the sky and shooting stars are missiles intended to be thrown at 'evil devils' to stop them peaking into the affairs of heaven. Another verse espouses the false and nonsensical belief that the Earth was created before the heavens.

And We have certainly beautified the nearest heaven with stars and have made [from] them what is thrown at the devils and have prepared for them the punishment of the Blaze.

Quran 67:5

The commentating on this verse verifies how absurd and unscientific that claim really is. It also backs up my point of narcissism. The stars are not there for our petty human adornment.

Another Quranic verse claiming that sperm originated between the backbone and the ribs.

He is created from a drop emitted- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs
Qur'an 86:6-7

Praise be to Allah.

The Holy Qur’an indicates in two places that the earth was created before the heavens. That is in the verses in which Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything”

[al-Baqarah 2:29]

And:

“Say (O Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)): Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days and you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the ‘Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four Days equal (i.e. all these four days were equal in the length of time), for all those who ask (about its creation).

Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: ‘Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.’ They both said: ‘We come, willingly’”

[Fussilat 41:9-11].

"Al-‘Allaamah Muhammad al-Ameen ash-Shinqeeti (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

First of all, it should be understood that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) was asked about reconciling between the verse in Soorah Fussilat and the verse in an-Naazi‘aat, and he responded by saying that Allah, may He be exalted, created the earth first, before the heaven, but it was not spread. Then He rose over towards the heaven and fashioned it as seven heavens in two days, then He spread the earth after that, and placed in it mountains, rivers and so on."

From: https://islamqa.info/en/70217

There are more but I won't clog the post with needless scientific errors. I'll just make my point.

Science changes according to evidence, whilst religion demands the evidence conform to it. Needless more to say, that was an ignorant thing to claim from your part about science.

 

[simulacrum]

@Layth you are just proving my point with this

Any denomination that adheres strictly to the Qur'an and Sunnah, using it as the basis for drawing rulings will never stray. Most of the "other" denominations of Islam directly contradict the Qur'an and Sunnah (e.g. Shia's hit themselves when self-harm is explicitly forbidden in the Qur'an).

It is a good comparison because there are so many disputes when it comes to interpretations of Quranic texts. It doesn't matter whether there is one way of viewing Islam or whether the content itself isn't subject to change as a result of these disputes, that's completely irrelevant. I'm not interested in the disputes, I'm merely pointing out that there isn't a consensus among Muslims. This isn't rocket science. Anyone can understand that people don't agree with each other 100% procent, even if the majority has the correct view. Now, if Muslims accepted criticism in this theological realm, maybe they would stop bombing each other.

What if every scientist rejected the evolution theory in union tomorrow because a new theory has been conjured up that's perhaps more convincing (according to them anyway)? You'd follow suit right? Even though you don't understand what the new theory is all about and never will... Nor did you understand the old theory that has been discarded


Yeah...Indeed hypothetically you are right. History has shown that theories are subject to being revised, rejected or completely disproved with the advent of new information. In that sense, I'd have to accept.You make it seem like that I'd lose sleep over it. I don't see science as a religion. I welcome new information. This dhogon thinks that changes in scientific theories will suddenly make me believe in a God again

As if the theory of evolution was the sole reason I left the deen. Wallahi you are killing me sxb. Most atheists don't even have a firm grasp of all the fundamental scientific theories as you mentioned. Telling them that something has changed with their worldview won't make them come back crawling to the religion of their parents nor affect them in any kind of way. BRB calling sick tomorrow because the theory of evolution has been discarded.


The core, unchanging worldview of Muslims does not handicap scientific progression. My evidence is the Islamic golden age.

Horta weren't you the one saying that the djinns are behind modern technology?. I rest my case


Free will is either an aspect of the immaterial soul or part of our biological makeup (which means we don't really have free will)


True, As I've already said. The fundamental part that directly influences the wide range of choices we can make, are biologically determined (genes, environment etc).So we don't have free will in its broadest sense of the concept.However, there are scientists and philosophers who are arguing for compatibility and others who are invoking Heisenberg Uncertainty principle to argue for free will. The iffy thing about it is that they need to clearly and distinctly define what they mean by free will.

I've already chosen for a practical stance, if you bothered to read it. By the way there is no such thing as ''immaterial soul''. Dualism was buried a long time ago in the scientific community sxb Descartes is still my nigga though