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[AdoonkaAlle]

That is the norm for a lot of Eastern cultures and what is crazy is how these incels and so called 'brothers' influenced by them are trying to bring that into the deen. That is why Muslim women need to be extra vigilant. From looking at the UK dawah scene which is mostly spearheaded by mere Islamic speakers who don't have any more Islamic knowledge than the women they critique and the constant twisting and distortion, is concering.

BTW, i have no issues with critism and constructive feedback. But its important for someone to listen to it themselves and verify. If you had criticism against them which you felt was valid and voiced in a respectful manner, I don't think most will have an issue as it is clearly coming from a place of honesty. Constantly calling women Fasiq, Kufr and wh0res for doing and having opinions they personally disagree with creates the narrative that men are the owners of the deen and that women are simply on the fringe which is why it’s so easy for them to quickly make takfir on us for any tiny perceived wrong doing. Hence why they have recently started targeting Practicing sisters now as a way to mock and question their commitment to Islam . These men can talk about their roadman and playboy Jahiliya days with no pushback and suspiciousness because in their eyes they’re the ‘owners’ of Islam whilst women need to be constantly watched.

Even though i agree that a significant proportion of hatred & injustices towards women is a result of men and cultural norms. This however isn't the major reason why men adopt a negative outlook on women as in the west power & authority of the average man has been relegated to a subservient position by secular liberal ideologies. Furthermore adoption of secular framework under the guise of feminism by muslim women has only led to worsening of relationship between the genders and also cohesion within the muslim community.

It is against this backdrop that we the rise of men influenced by incel rhetoric, if muslim women can cherry pick what suits them from feminist ideology why can't men ? why is the hatred of men not a problem but that of women is ? Feminism has had a deeper impact and devasting consequences for the muslim community than the incel movement as the former is propagated through law, education, culture etc while the latter isn't. Yet despite this it's hardly addressed by muslim women as a source of problem that we face in the west.

The main culprit of women's injustice is either blamed on men or culture, rarely is adoption of secular worldview ever brought up. This lack of accountability on women's part further reinforces the view that men have of women which is in the eyes of women men are nothing more than enemies to be fought. The end result of it is that men simply reciprocate the actions & views launched against them.

If muslim women are against incel, redpill movements etc because it's goes against islam then they should be equally against feminism. Equally muslim men should be against redpill ideology for the exact same reason they're against feminism. Laakin reality on the ground is that each gender cherry picks whatever suits their nafs and fight under this basis.

At the heart of this gender hostility is a battle of ideology and until both genders take a step back and reflect on the views they've internalised which are alien to diinteena there's never going to be any step forward.

You're not going to agree with me but gender has always been at the forefront and sexism is/has always been a massive issue. There is a reason why the Prophet s.a.w in his last sermon emphasized on treating women well for he knew that his Ummah struggles with that due to most people's previous jahiiya cultures that some time seeps in. I'm not saying women are angels, they can be just as terrible or worse but obviously we live in a male dominate society and in Islam and most cultures men are the leaders, hence as the leaders we expect protection and understanding rather than what we're seeing in the overall Muslim community as a lack of this from one’s leaders can have devastating consequences as obviously those that are being led are in a more vulnerable position.

Every society has some form of sexism, Somalis included but what I find concerning

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The reason why i don't agree is simply because the problems that we see today is a result of this gender centric problematisation of issues affecting women. It's a worldview adopted from secular feminism which reinforces us to talk about muslim women on feminism's terms rather than Islam's term ordained by Allah.

Sexism comes no where near the kufr & shirk embodied in what secular feminism advocates for. As a muslim living in a gaalo land why is sexism prioritised more so than the ideologies of kufr ?

The Prophet ﷺ didn’t simply emphasise about treating women only but He also talked about the rights of men and obligations women have towards men & vice - versa. This is more encompassing than just a gender centric discourse where one only talks about rights without obligations and accountability. Think of men who only talk about women obeying them without giving any thought of their responsibilities and the rights that women have over them, will women entertain them ?

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah’s trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

Our rights, freedoms, obligations etc all of it is based on the submission to Allah SWT. Deviation from this reference point to other paradigms only leads to more problems, just look at gaalada who championed for this. Sexualisation & objectification of women has reached astronomical levels, rape has increased, so if it didn't work for them why would it work for muslim women ?

Men are the major victims of male violence, yet this is hardly ever mentioned in such discourses regarding injustices that are prevalent in muslim countries. Portraying societal issues as if women are the only victims and worthy of our support is very problematic. A somali male is expected to live, fight and die for his qabil for the benefit of a few odayaal, does his life not matter ?

Why should somali men fight for the rights of somali women at the expense of their own rights ? If somali women don't give a damn about them why should somali men care ? This is the end result of gender centric prioritization of societal issues. It only leads to polarization and divisiveness between the genders.

 

[Angelina]

Even though i agree that a significant proportion of hatred & injustices towards women is a result of men and cultural norms. This however isn't the major reason why men adopt a negative outlook on women as in the west power & authority of the average man has been relegated to a subservient position by secular liberal ideologies.

I’d see where you were coming from if the Muslim community wasn’t still traditional. Muslim men in the West hardly deal with the effects of feminism that white gaal men deal with, so using that stick to attack women is merely an excuse.

Facts:

1. The Muslim community hardly record their marriages, therefore men hardly pay alimony.

2. In the Somali community in particular, older gen Somali women even hardly ask for child support which is why it’s easier for men to move on and take on second wives. They’re not crippled by payments like cadaan men.

3. Muslim men also don’t have the incel problem that gaal men have. As a Somali, Pakistani or Arab, you can easily go back home and marry a local woman who fits your preferences.

So looking at all of that, why do Muslim men behave as though they have the issues white men do and internalize and use that to punish Muslim women when on average we don’t behave like cadaan gaal women and on average we’re still somewhat traditional?

It is against this backdrop that we the rise of men influenced by incel rhetoric, if muslim women can cherry pick what suits them from feminist ideology why can't men ?

What have Muslim women cherry picked walal? Even our Islamic rights are controversial, let alone any additional feminist rights. You need to be a bit more specific here

why is the hatred of men not a problem but that of women is ? Feminism has had a deeper impact and devasting consequences for the muslim community than the incel movement as the former is propagated through law, education, culture etc while the latter isn't.

Because hatred of women is usually met with violence. Every week 3 women are murdered and there is an increase. Back home you have acid attacks, forced marriages and the list goes on.

Yet despite this it's hardly addressed by muslim women as a source of problem that we face in the west.

What issues do Muslim men have in the West though? Your culture is different to cadaan men. Our women are different?

Do you Muslim women sleep around like gaal women?

Do Muslim women get alimoney from men?

I need you to be more specific as to what Muslim women do and how feminism has impacted the Muslim community on average because right now basic Islamic rights just as the right for a woman not to live with her in-laws is real controversial issue amongst the biggest Muslim community in the West such as the Asians and which shows how traditional our communities are.

The main culprit of women's injustice is either blamed on men or culture, rarely is adoption of secular worldview ever brought up.

it is though and it would be dishonest for you to not see it. We live in man’s world and the injustices I’m talking about is the ones found in the Muslim communities. Cadaans have their own separate issues and what is disappointing and telling is the only way you can talk about injustices of men is by taking on the issues faced by gaal men which YOU a Muslim man with your own culture and deen do not face.

This lack of accountability on women's part further reinforces the view that men have of women which is in the eyes of women men are nothing more than enemies to be fought. The end result of it is that men simply reciprocate the actions & views launched against them.The only thing you can talk about is what gaal western women do. Talk specifically about the Somali community, Asian community and Arab communities. Do not conflate us with cadaan women as that is dishonest. We might live in the West but we’re still governed by own micro communities.

If muslim women are against incel, redpill movements etc because it's goes against islam then they should be equally against feminism.

Muslim women still do not have their God given rights yet and you’re here talking about feminism. Muslim redpill are trying to take away our rights to simple rights such as working and the right for men to restrict and beat us. That is a direct threat to a woman’s life.

Equally muslim men should be against redpill ideology for the exact same reason they're against feminism. Laakin reality on the ground is that each gender cherry picks whatever suits their nafs and fight under this basis.

Not true because issues such as

1. Not living with in-laws
2. Wanting husbands to help
3. The right to not want to be in polygamous unions
4. Rampant double standards.
5. Women working.

Those are what Muslim women talk about and we’re called ‘feminism’ for that.

be specific about the extra ‘rights’ do actual Muslim women ask for and how are Muslim men impacted?

At the heart of this gender hostility is a battle of ideology and until both genders take a step back and reflect on the views they've internalised which are alien to diinteena there's never going to be any step forward.

No, we do not have the same clout or lead as men. We’re not on equal footing as in many Muslim societies women don’t even get their Islamic rights. You’re from a society in which many women don’t even get justice for being raped. So why act like we’re are equal?!

Sexism comes no where near the kufr & shirk embodied in what secular feminism advocates for. As a muslim living in a gaalo land why is sexism prioritised more so than the ideologies of kufr ?

Because you’re now having a conversation with a conservative Muslim woman who doesn’t believe in any of the shirk and Kufr. So why are you having this conversation with me when I talk about women’s rights? Isn’t that text book gaslighting?

practising Muslim women talk about the sexism found in the Muslim community and you talk to me like I’m a gaal woman who believes in transgender and LGTB or whatever.

I’m talking about the rampant mistreatment of 50% of the Ummah which is a huge issue back home and in our respective communities.

The Prophet ﷺ didn’t simply emphasise about treating women only but He also talked about the rights of men and obligations women have towards men & vice - versa.

LOL, he sure did. Arabia was a time in which daughters were buried and forced into marriages and treated like cattle. Why do we have hadiths in which parents are promised heaven for raising 4 daughters but not sons? Because men were simply valued more and that is still an issue in Asiatic cultures. To deny this is to deny reality





LOL that is the experience of women we are constantly told the rights of men with hardly any emphasis on our rights. Right now in the Muslim community our rights are controversial.

This is more encompassing than just a gender centric discourse where one only talks about rights without obligations and accountability. Think of men who only talk about women obeying them without giving any thought of their responsibilities and the rights that women have over them, will women entertain them ?




Our rights, freedoms, obligations etc all of it is based on the submission to Allah SWT. Deviation from this reference point to other paradigms only leads to more problems, just look at gaalada who championed for this. Sexualisation & objectification of women has reached astronomical levels, rape has increased, so if it didn't work for them why would it work for muslim women ?

I don’t see myself as a feminist and this the huge crux of the issue. Any woman that talks about the rights of women and the lack of in the Muslim community is labeled feminist even when we’re called wh0res and fasiqs and are bashed with double standards.

Men are the major victims of male violence, yet this is hardly ever mentioned in such discourses regarding injustices that are prevalent in muslim countries. Portraying societal issues as if women are the only victims and worthy of our support is very problematic. A somali male is expected to live, fight and die for his qabil for the benefit of a few odayaal, does his life not matter ?

Yes male on male violence.

women on the other hand are much more likely to be murdered by the men who are supposed to protect them, their husbands and partners.

Using male on male violence to silence the issues faced by women is real gaslighting because you KNOW the world is hostile to women.

As a father whose safety would you fear for? Your son or daughter? Why do women need extra protection such as mAhrams when traveling and they need their fathers permission to marry? Fathers are meant to do background checks on potential husbands? Why? Because the woman is at the mercy of her husband. The deen and society knows this, yet you’re behaving as though men and women are the same?! Looool

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I’d see where you were coming from if the Muslim community wasn’t still traditional. Muslim men in the West hardly deal with the effects of feminism that white gaal men deal with, so using that stick to attack women is merely an excuse.

Facts:

1. The Muslim community hardly record their marriages, therefore men hardly pay alimony.

2. In the Somali community in particular, older gen Somali women even hardly ask for child support which is why it’s easier for men to move on and take on second wives. They’re not crippled by payments like cadaan men.

3. Muslim men also don’t have the incel problem that gaal men have. As a Somali, Pakistani or Arab, you can easily go back home and marry a local woman who fits your preferences.

So looking at all of that, why do Muslim men behave as though they have the issues white men do and internalize and use that to punish Muslim women when on average we don’t behave like cadaan gaal women and on average we’re still somewhat traditional?


What have Muslim women cherry picked walal? Even our Islamic rights are controversial, let alone any additional feminist rights. You need to be a bit more specific here

Because hatred of women is usually met with violence. Every week 3 women are murdered and there is an increase. Back home you have acid attacks, forced marriages and the list goes on.



What issues do Muslim men have in the West though? Your culture is different to cadaan men. Our women are different?

Do you Muslim women sleep around like gaal women?

Do Muslim women get alimoney from men?

I need you to be more specific as to what Muslim women do and how feminism has impacted the Muslim community on average because right now basic Islamic rights just as the right for a woman not to live with her in-laws is real controversial issue amongst the biggest Muslim community in the West such as the Asians and which shows how traditional our communities are.

it is though and it would be dishonest for you to not see it. We live in man’s world and the injustices I’m talking about is the ones found in the Muslim communities. Cadaans have their own separate issues and what is disappointing and telling is the only way you can talk about injustices of men is by taking on the issues faced by gaal men which YOU a Muslim man with your own culture and deen do not face.


Muslim women still do not have their God given rights yet and you’re here talking about feminism. Muslim redpill are trying to take away our rights to simple rights such as working and the right for men to restrict and beat us. That is a direct threat to a woman’s life.



Not true because issues such as

1. Not living with in-laws
2. Wanting husbands to help
3. The right to not want to be in polygamous unions
4. Rampant double standards.
5. Women working.

Those are what Muslim women talk about and we’re called ‘feminism’ for that.

be specific about the extra ‘rights’ do actual Muslim women ask for and how are Muslim men impacted?

No, we do not have the same clout or lead as men. We’re not on equal footing as in many Muslim societies women don’t even get their Islamic rights. You’re from a society in which many women don’t even get justice for being raped. So why act like we’re are equal?!

Because you’re now having a conversation with a conservative Muslim woman who doesn’t believe in any of the shirk and Kufr. So why are you having this conversation with me when I talk about women’s rights? Isn’t that text book gaslighting?

practising Muslim women talk about the sexism found in the Muslim community and you talk to me like I’m a gaal woman who believes in transgender and LGTB or whatever.

I’m talking about the rampant mistreatment of 50% of the Ummah which is a huge issue back home and in our respective communities.

LOL, he sure did. Arabia was a time in which daughters were buried and forced into marriages and treated like cattle. Why do we have hadiths in which parents are promised heaven for raising 4 daughters but not sons? Because men were simply valued more and that is still an issue in Asiatic cultures. To deny this is to deny reality





LOL that is the experience of women we are constantly told the rights of men with hardly any emphasis on our rights. Right now in the Muslim community our rights are controversial.


I don’t see myself as a feminist and this the huge crux of the issue. Any woman that talks about the rights of women and the lack of in the Muslim community is labeled feminist even when we’re called wh0res and fasiqs and are bashed with double standards.


Yes male on male violence.

women on the other hand are much more likely to be murdered by the men who are supposed to protect them, their husbands and partners.

Using male on male violence to silence the issues faced by women is real gaslighting because you KNOW the world is hostile to women.

As a father whose safety would you fear for? Your son or daughter? Why do women need extra protection such as mAhrams when traveling and they need their fathers permission to marry? Fathers are meant to do background checks on potential husbands? Why? Because the woman is at the mercy of her husband. The deen and society knows this, yet you’re behaving as though men and women are the same?! Looool

In my previous post i tried my best to give you a nuanced view especially from a male's perspective as to why men in general are indifferent to the current women's rights discourse & why some men display hostility towards women.

Your response has been to dismiss men and their experiences and portray them as oppressors while women are the oppressed. I ask why the hatred of men is ok and you replied as follows

Because hatred of women is usually met with violence. Every week 3 women are murdered and there is an increase. Back home you have acid attacks, forced marriages and the list goes on.

So according to the above logic all men deserve to be hated because some men are violent and murder women ? Who said hatred of men doesn't lead to violence ? You judge men simply on the basis of their gender and not their actions and act bewildered as to why men will reciprocate in a similar fashion ? is this islam ? how come men's islamic right to be treated fairly and justly doesn't matter laakin for women it matters ?

Similarly i ask why sexism takes precedence when it hasn't the same impact of kufr & shirk of secular feminism in gaalo countries that muslim women are exposed to. This is your reply

Because you’re now having a conversation with a conservative Muslim woman who doesn’t believe in any of the shirk and Kufr. So why are you having this conversation with me when I talk about women’s rights? Isn’t that text book gaslighting?

practising Muslim women talk about the sexism found in the Muslim community and you talk to me like I’m a gaal woman who believes in transgender and LGTB or whatever.

I’m talking about the rampant mistreatment of 50% of the Ummah which is a huge issue back home and in our respective communities.

Is it not a fact that a lot of muslim women are taking off their hijabs, support & advocate for lgbt, become modernists, lose their deen due to adopting secular feminism ?

Why is this not an important topic despite the damage it causes far surpasses that of sexism, that was my question. I didn't talk to you as a gaal nor implied anything of the sort merely pointing out the disparity in prioritising minor issues over major ones .

What forces you to focus solely on the minor issues but not major ones ? A muslim man being sexist towards a muslim women can in no way be compared to a muslim woman supporting the right of muslim women to remove hijab, right to have zina, support lgbt, leave the deen etc.

When men go beyond the limits of islam you are very insistent to hold them accountable but when women do the same there's silence why is this ? you speak of double standards of men yet you're guilty of it as well.

If feminism was compatible with islam then why in the world are gaalo feminist against islam then ? are they against diinta simply because muslim men are sexist or is that they believe that islam doesn't align with the secular values of women ?

Ruunti there's a lot to be said here about the views you hold laakin based on our previous discussions i do believe that you need to take a step back and reflect on your biases.

 

[Angelina]

In my previous post i tried my best to give you a nuanced view especially from a male's perspective as to why men in general are indifferent to the current women's rights discourse & why some men display hostility towards women.

Your response has been to dismiss men and their experiences and portray them as oppressors while women are the oppressed. I ask why the hatred of men is ok and you replied as follows

If I’m being dismissive, at least tell me how and what Muslim men deal with? Actually try and educated me instead of just throwing around accusations. You’ve not listed anything, where as I clearly did.

The discourse about women’s rights is based on Western women and I asked how does that have to do with Muslim women in Muslim spaces and Muslim countries. Your inability to answer this is very telling indeed.

So according to the above logic all men deserve to be hated because some men are violent and murder women ?

I’ve never said that. If that is what you got from this exchange then this whole conversation is a lost cause.

If women talking about the sexism they face in the Muslim community is distorted to hatred of men then we have a long way to go.

I don’t believe that men should be hated. They’re our brothers, husbands and sons and our fellow believers. Where did you even get the idea of ‘hatred’ from?

Who said hatred of men doesn't lead to violence ? You judge men simply on the basis of their gender and not their actions and act bewildered as to why men will reciprocate in a similar fashion ? is this islam ? how come men's islamic right to be treated fairly and justly doesn't matter laakin for women it matters ?

First and foremost, I never claimed that men’s rights don’t matter. But mens rights in Islamic spaces are already upheld. If you feel that mens rights aren’t uphold, what specific rights are they not given? Are men as vulnerable as women?

Hatred of men from women doesn’t lead to violence as women simply don’t have the strength to inflict it. This is a fact arguing against that is a joke. Throughout history and even now, it is usually men killing women and hardly the other way around. The % of women murderers in general is incredibly low and that is in every society.

What exactly are you arguing?! As a man you’re 10x more likely to be killed and harmed by other men. We’re not talking about men vs male violence here.

So let’s stick to the topic. What is funny is that you’ve inherited this Western mentality that men and women are exactly the same and of the same strength and social influence. It’s to the point that you’re denying basic realities.

Similarly i ask why sexism takes precedence when it hasn't the same impact of kufr & shirk of secular feminism in gaalo countries that muslim women are exposed to. This is your reply

When have I ever claimed that sexism takes precedence over Kufr. We all know that Kufr is even worse than murder. Any Muslim will tell you that Kufr is worse, but do you know how silly you sound right now. Imagine if someone was murdered or abused and I then said that it doesn’t matter as Kufr is worse?!

What exactly does that have to do with overall conversation walaal? I’m at a loss. Not once did I claim that, yet you are bringing in random issues to try and dismiss another issue. It’s lazy behavior.

Is it not a fact that a lot of muslim women are taking off their hijabs, support & advocate for lgbt, become modernists, lose their deen due to adopting secular feminism ?

A very small minority when we look at the overall community and there is no denying that this is something that needs to be battled. But does that mean because some want to transgress against their Lord and nafs, we shouldn’t look into those that transgress against others?!

But my question is, why do you think it’s one or the other? Why can’t we also look at those that have internalized gaal ideologies and look into sexism?

Your whole argument seems to be that because some women have taken of their hijab that means women’s rights isn’t an issue in the Muslim community? How is that common sense. Against I’m disappointed

Why is this not an important topic despite the damage it causes far surpasses that of sexism, that was my question. I didn't talk to you as a gaal nor implied anything of the sort merely pointing out the disparity in prioritising minor issues over major ones .

I never once claimed it isn’t an important topic. You’re tugging at straws now because the only way you can dismiss my argument is by bringing in other topics to suggest we shouldn’t look at sexism in the Muslim community. Well I say as a community we can look at various issues. We shouldn’t limit ourselves.

What forces you to focus solely on the minor issues but not major ones ?

50% of believers being oppressed isn’t minor. Women being looked down upon, subject to double standards, women back home in places like Arabia and South Asia, Somalia ect dealing with forced marriages, being forced to marry their rapist and a host of issues ect isn’t ‘minor’. The normalization of taking people’s rights isn’t minor.

Here lies the crux of the issue. You really do believe that oppression of humans is minor. It’s a scary mentality to have and is one the reasons why women in Islamic spaces will struggle for a long time. Authobillah, the lack of compassion is glaring to tbh and I’m really disappointed in you tbh.

A muslim man being sexist towards a muslim women can in no way be compared to a muslim woman supporting the right of muslim women to remove hijab, right to have zina, support lgbt, leave the deen etc.

Wow, re-read what you wrote. So your whole premise is that because some women go against Islam, men oppressing them is minor? Can I abuse, murder, slander and disrespect and the say hey, some from those groups have been engaging in unIslamic behavior, hence my behavior is minor?

understand that when a Muslima takes off her hijab she is transgressing against herself, but oppressing another human being is transgressing against others.

You’re trying to compare the incomparable and that is where your whole argument falls short and you behave as though being against oppression means you’re not against other haram activities.

Remember oppressing a fellow Muslim isn’t minor. If maybe you saw your sisters in Islam as people and a believe like you, you wouldn’t come up with such a terrible take.

If feminism was compatible with islam then why in the world are gaalo feminist against islam then ?

Where did I say feminism is compatible with Islam? Where did I say I was a feminist?

You’ve behaved exact the same way as those misogynistic men who scream feminist when women talk about the issues they face in Islamic spaces, by

1. accusing me of feminism by how is feminism compatible with Islam.

2. Accusing me of not caring about LGTB and lack of hijab ect.

3. your whole argument is to suggest that oppression against other humans isn’t important because some women take off their hijab and believe in haram ideologies.

Ruunti there's a lot to be said here about the views you hold laakin based on our previous discussions i do believe that you need to take a step back and reflect on your biases.

I don’t think you realize how biased you are tbh and your argument hinges on you either lying about me saying that I don’t care about people following haram ideologies when I clearly said as Muslim woman I’m against that. Really fits into the argument I made previously in which All Muslim women even the practicing ones are accused and looked at as being some sort of shaytaans that are okay with clear cut haram simply because they care about their fellow women being mistreated.

I’d say fear Allah and re-read what you wrote and think about what you’re accusing me of. Also, you seem to think oppressing individuals are minor issues which is messed up to the core tbh.

You still haven’t went into detail about the oppressions Muslim men face at the hands of Muslim women. You behave as though men and women are equal and of equal strength and social significance.

Again, you can’t come up with a logical counter argument without accusations and that sums up the experience of Muslim women in Muslim spaces.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

If I’m being dismissive, at least tell me how and what Muslim men deal with? Actually try and educated me instead of just throwing around accusations. You’ve not listed anything, where as I clearly did.

The discourse about women’s rights is based on Western women and I asked how does that have to do with Muslim women in Muslim spaces and Muslim countries. Your inability to answer this is very telling indeed.



I’ve never said that. If that is what you got from this exchange then this whole conversation is a lost cause.

If women talking about the sexism they face in the Muslim community is distorted to hatred of men then we have a long way to go.

I don’t believe that men should be hated. They’re our brothers, husbands and sons and our fellow believers. Where did you even get the idea of ‘hatred’ from?

First and foremost, I never claimed that men’s rights don’t matter. But mens rights in Islamic spaces are already upheld. If you feel that mens rights aren’t uphold, what specific rights are they not given?

Hatred of men from women doesn’t lead to violence as women simply don’t have the strength to inflict it. This is a fact arguing against that is a joke. Throughout history and even now, it is usually men killing women and hardly the other way around. The % of women murderers in general is incredibly low and that is in every society.

What exactly are you arguing?! As a man you’re 10x more likely to be killed and harmed by other men. We’re not talking about men vs male violence here.

So let’s stick to the topic.


A very small minority when we look at the overall community and there is no denying that this is something that needs to be battled.

But my question is, why do you think it’s one or the other? Why can’t we also look at those that have internalized gaal ideologies and look into sexism?

Your whole argument seems to be that because some women have taken of their hijab that means women’s rights isn’t an issue in the Muslim community?


I never once claimed it isn’t an important topic. You’re tugging at straws now because the only way you can dismiss my argument is by bringing in other topics to suggest we shouldn’t look at sexism in the Muslim community. Well I say as a community we can look at various issues. We shouldn’t limit ourselves.

50% of believers being oppressed isn’t minor. Women being looked down upon, subject to double standards, women back home in places like Arabia and South Asia, Somalia ect dealing with forced marriages, being forced to marry their rapist and a host of issues ect isn’t ‘minor’. The normalization of taking people’s rights isn’t minor.

Here lies the crux of the issue. You really do believe that oppression of humans is minor. It’s a scary mentality to have and is one the reasons why women in Islamic spaces will struggle for a long time. Authobillah, the lack of compassion is glaring to tbh and I’m really disappointed in you tbh.

Wow, re-read what you wrote. So your whole premise is that because some women go against Islam, men oppressing them is minor? Can I abuse, murder, slander and disrespect and the say hey, some from those groups have been engaging in unIslamic behavior, hence my behavior is minor?

understand that when a Muslima takes off her hijab she is transgressing against herself, but oppressing another human being is transgressing against others.

You’re trying to compare the incomparable and that is where your whole argument falls short and you behave as though being against oppression means you’re not against other haram activities.

Remember oppressing a fellow Muslim isn’t minor. If maybe you saw your sisters in Islam as people and a believe like you, you wouldn’t come up with such a terrible take.




Where did I say feminism is compatible with Islam? Where did I say I was a feminist?

You’ve behaved exact the same way as those misogynistic men who scream feminist when women talk about the issues they face in Islamic spaces, by

1. accusing me of feminism by how is feminism compatible with Islam.

2. Accusing me of not caring about LGTB and lack of hijab ect.

3. your whole argument is to suggest that oppression against other humans isn’t important because some women take off their hijab and believe in haram ideologies.



I don’t think you realize how biased you are tbh and your argument hinges on you either lying about me saying that I don’t care about people following haram ideologies when I clearly said as Muslim woman I’m against that.

I’d say fear Allah and re-read what you wrote and think about what you’re accusing me of. Also, you seem to think oppressing individuals are minor issues which is messed up to the core tbh.


You still haven’t went into detail about the oppressions Muslim men face at the hands of Muslim women. You behave as though men and women are equal and of equal strength and social significance.

Your approach to this entire discussion is very problematic as gender is the important criteria that determines who's guilty & oppressive and who's the victim & oppressed. Men are the oppressors and women the oppressed that's why it's was very easy of you to dismiss men & their experiences.

I asked a very simple question why is hatred of men ok but hatred of women isn't, this was your response

Because hatred of women is usually met with violence. Every week 3 women are murdered and there is an increase. Back home you have acid attacks, forced marriages and the list goes on.

When i expanded on the logical conclusion of having such views amounts to, this is what you had to say

I’ve never said that. If that is what you got from this exchange then this whole conversation is a lost cause.

If women talking about the sexism they face in the Muslim community is distorted to hatred of men then we have a long way to go.

I don’t believe that men should be hated. They’re our brothers, husbands and sons and our fellow believers. Where did you even get the idea of ‘hatred’ from?

I had to ask you twice why the hatred of men was ok before you managed to give a valid a response to my question (green part) why is this ? why couldn't you state this from the get go ? wasn't this not a clear cut example of your dismissal of men ? Even more astounding is how you managed to equate my question of asking why is it ok to hate men to distorting women's issues.

Feminism just like red pill ideology leads to the hatred and demonisation of the opposite gender, it's very hypocritical of muslim women to focus on the hatred of their gender when they espouse the same level of hatred towards muslim men

My earlier point still stands, if islam is truly important to us as we claim then it's only fair to be against any ideology that goes against it

If muslim women are against incel, redpill movements etc because it's goes against islam then they should be equally against feminism. Equally muslim men should be against redpill ideology for the exact same reason they're against feminism. Laakin reality on the ground is that each gender cherry picks whatever suits their nafs and fight under this basis.

Living in a wadaan gaal ah you can't seriously expect me to believe that a muslim man being sexist to a muslim woman is so problematic & wide spread that it takes precedence over ideologies of kufr that muslim women are exposed to ?

There are laws & regulations that a muslim woman can use to protect herself against sexism tell me what laws are there protecting muslim women from supporting lgbt, coming out as gay, taking hijab off, engaging in zina etc ?

If the islamic beliefs that stops a woman from engaging in haram activities, kufr etc that are prevalent and promoted at every level from childhood to adulthood in these countries is attacked and negated by secular ideologies tell me what more could be important than this ?

Sexism from muslim men isn't the number one injustice that muslim women face living in gaalo countries my question is why does this take priority then ? what forces muslim women to prioritise sexism from muslim men over ideologies that promote zina, removing their hijab ?

I agree with you one thing & that this conversation is a lost cause as long as you continue projecting your gender biases and assumptions that forces you to display contradictions in holding yourself accountable.

 

[Periplus]

you can't seriously expect me to believe that a muslim man being sexist to a muslim woman is so problematic & wide spread that it takes precedence over ideologies of kufr that muslim women are exposed to ?

I mean when sexism generally goes hand in hand with violence, I would assume any sane person will call that a big problem.

Feminism just like red pill ideology leads to the hatred and demonisation of the opposite gender

You say this but you rarely push back against redpill thinking….

 

[Angelina]

Your approach to this entire discussion is very problematic as gender is the important criteria that determines who's guilty & oppressive and who's the victim & oppressed. Men are the oppressors and women the oppressed that's why it's was very easy of you to dismiss men & their experiences.

On a mass scale. Men are the oppressors of women and other men are the oppressors of men. As a man you’re much more likely to oppressed and harmed by other men. Do you as a man look over your shoulders at night fearing women? Do you fear rape from women? Do you fear that it will be a woman to physically attack you?

Why do you deny this glaring fact. You know this and society knows this, yet you’re arguing with me for what? To win a debate?

It’s this manipulativeness that I hate and the faux outrage of outlining the reality that you know all to well. There is a reason why you’d be protective over your daughters compared to your sons, yet me being honest about the vulnerability of women is something you can’t admit. Be honest

I asked a very simple question why is hatred of men ok but hatred of women isn't, this was your response



When i expanded on the logical conclusion of having such views amounts to, this is what you had to say

I said this, because women hating men doesn’t result in death or oppression, especially back home. This is a fact. There is no denying that hating men creates societal issues such women refusing to marry, disrespect and raising kids in unstable environments. But to suggest that the consequences of hating men is the same as hating women is a joke because ultimately men and women aren’t equal. We don’t have the strength that men do, Women don’t have policies that subject men. In Islamic and Eastern societies and Muslim communities in general, we don’t have that power. You deny basic realities of the difference of men and women to merely argue Authobillah. Soon you’ll deny that men are stronger, the leaders in society and that women are weaker and more vulnerable: all to merely argue.


there is no denying that if women did have the opportunity to inflict harm, they might be just as bad. But the reality is that women don’t on average haram men. Unfortunately they are much more likely to be oppressive towards their children due to power over them and proximity.

I had to ask you twice why the hatred of men was ok before you managed to give a valid a response to my question (green part) why is this ? why couldn't you state this from the get go ? wasn't this not a clear cut example of your dismissal of men ? Even more astounding is how you managed to equate my question of asking why is it ok to hate men to distorting women's issues.

Feminism just like red pill ideology leads to the hatred and demonisation of the opposite gender, it's very hypocritical of muslim women to focus on the hatred of their gender when they espouse the same level of hatred towards muslim men

We’re not talking about feminism. The fact that you need to talk about feminism when we’re talking about the rights of women is very telling.

Also, I can tell you how sexism against women affects Muslim women, but till now you haven’t been able to tell me the specific sexism Muslim men face. I can’t tell take you seriously when you can’t even do that as you can’t even fully argue against my point.

My earlier point still stands, if islam is truly important to us as we claim then it's only fair to be against any ideology that goes against it
I’m completely okay with that stance. But equating women’s rights in an Islamic framework with feminisms is problematic. You’re doing this to dismiss and diminish my point. I’ve never once said I agree with feminism. I believe in a woman’s rights that still takes into account Islamic norms, such as men being the lead of the household ect which feminism is vehemently against such as obedience ect.

Living in a wadaan gaal ah you can't seriously expect me to believe that a muslim man being sexist to a muslim woman is so problematic & wide spread that it takes precedence over ideologies of kufr that muslim women are exposed to ?

I’m talking about Muslim spaces and Muslim countries. Our norms and values are different to gaals. Asian girls still deal with honor killing and having to live with in-laws and being their personal maids. Arabs also have their own cultural hangups. As Somalis we have men who engage in polygamous unions without being able to afford it and some running back home and running out on their children. Women don’t ask for child support and our shamed for going to the courts. Half of the time older gen Somalis don’t even have the language skills to find help and usually the men run back home so that wouldn’t even do anything. That is a stark contrast to white women getting alimony. So why are we brushed with the same brush when our life experiences are so different?

My issue is that when women bring this up, they’re dismissed, ignored or the men simply justify it by using Islam and twisting it. Their is no accountability in our respective communities similarly to how you could argue there is no accountability for Western women. What is sad is that Muslim women in the West are beaten using the same yard stick as cadaan women.

We don’t/can’t live our lives as an cadaan Kafiirah and Alhamdulliah for that. so using the whole women in the West not having accountability with regards to us is laughable as we both know that due to double standards, it is socially acceptable for a man to have a past but a Muslima in such a situation would be find it hard to marry and be ostracized. Hence, the real reality is that their isn’t any accountability for men. There aren’t any checks in place for men or any fear of ostracization of issues to their

There are laws & regulations that a muslim woman can use to protect herself against sexism tell me what laws are there protecting muslim women from supporting lgbt, coming out as gay, taking hijab off, engaging in zina etc ?

Laws? Even In Muslim countries their aren’t laws protecting people from negative beliefs as that is based on your nafs. So what are you getting at? You can’t regulate people in that manner. There isn’t a police that knocks on every door asking people what their views are or if they prayed. Rather confusing what you’re asking tbh.

If the islamic beliefs that stops a woman from engaging in haram activities, kufr etc that are prevalent and promoted at every level from childhood to adulthood in these countries is attacked and negated by secular ideologies tell me what more could be important than this ?

I never said it wasn’t important. Why is it one or the other? Is that the only you can come up with any form of argument? Why are you talking to me like I’m a secularist who believes that LGTB ect is okay or that I don’t believe we shouldn’t have laws in place to protect men and women from this?!

Sexism from muslim men isn't the number one injustice that muslim women face living in gaalo countries my question is why does this take priority then ? what forces muslim women to prioritise sexism from muslim men over ideologies that promote zina, removing their hijab ?

These ideologies are based on consumption and making sure kids aren’t exposed to that. BOTH men and women are susceptible to these ideologies and it is up to us as parents and a communities to protect our children. I don’t know why you’re creating the narrative that women are more at risk, when it common to see men engage in the most haram activities with hardly any push back in the community.

Also, We need to come together as men and women and we can only do that If we value each other. The issue is that in the Muslim community, one gender clearly isn’t. That isn’t to suggest that men are never oppressed or that they don’t have their own host of issues. I’m very aware that life isn’t black and white, but right now I’m specifically talking about sexism.

I agree with you one thing & that this conversation is a lost cause as long as you continue projecting your gender biases and assumptions that forces you to display contradictions in holding yourself accountable.

Accountability in what though? Your whole argument is that because there are woman who take of their hijab and fall for kufr ideologies that means sexism isn’t an issue and that some men shouldn’t be held accountable?

You do know that as a community we can tackle various issues right? Why use one issue to dismiss and push aside another? I never once said that gaal idealogy isn’t harmful, yet your whole take hinges upon on you lying or distorting my point to pretend that I’m okay with that.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

I mean when sexism generally goes hand in hand with violence, I would assume any sane person will call that a big problem.

Very convenient of you to leave out "living in wadan gaal ah" my point still stands nonetheless secular ideologies which contradict diinta & ultimately lead to negation of a woman's belief in islam if far more problematic and harmful to muslim women than any sexism coming from a muslim man in these countries.

There are laws in the above countries that a muslim woman use to her advantage regarding sexism can the same be said about secular ideologies ?

You say this but you rarely push back against redpill thinking….

why is this do you think ? red pill, incel etc is a recent phenomenon, i've been defending muslim women from similar accusations way before such terms became a thing here. What about you sxb do you reflect on your biases ?

 

[Periplus]

Very convenient of you to leave out "living in wadan gaal ah" my point still stands nonetheless secular ideologies which contradict diinta & ultimately lead to negation of a woman's belief in islam if far more problematic and harmful to muslim women than any sexism coming from a muslim man in these countries.

There are laws in the above countries that a muslim woman use to her advantage regarding sexism can the same be said about secular ideologies ?

Isn’t sexism a perfect example of a secular ideology that contradicts the deen?

Regardless, is an issue of Imaan bigger problem than an issue that physically harms/kills our women?

Imaan is a personal issue, you can surround someone with Islam and they will still go astray.

However, we can change sexism with education and campaigns.

why is this do you think ? red pill, incel etc is a recent phenomenon, i've been defending muslim women from similar accusations way before such terms became a thing here. What about you sxb do you reflect on your biases ?

Attach any examples during this calendar year.

I regularly reflect on biases and admit to them, however, I do not profess my online persona on being a god-fearing/serving person.

So you could argue that the standards for you are different to mine.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

On a mass a scale. Men are the oppressors of women and other men are the oppressors of men. As a man you’re much more likely to oppressed and harmed by other men.

why do you deny this glaring fact. You know this and society knows this, yet you’re arguing with me for what? To win a debate?

I said this, because women hating men doesn’t result in death or oppression, especially back home. This is a fact. There is no denying that hating men creates societal issues such women refusing to marry, disrespect and raising kids in unstable environments. But to suggest that the consequences of hating men is the same as hating women is a joke because ultimately men and women aren’t equal. We don’t have the strength that men do, Women don’t have policies that subject men. In Islamic and Eastern societies and Muslim communities in general, we don’t have that power. You deny basic realities of the difference of men and women to merely argue Authobillah. Soon you’ll deny that men are stronger, the leaders in society and that women are weaker and more vulnerable: all to merely argue.

there is no denying that if women did have the opportunity, they might be just as bad. But the reality is that don’tWomen Unfortunately are much more likely to be oppressive towards their children due to power over them and proximity.

We’re not talking about feminism. The fact that you need to talk about feminism when we’re talking about the rights of women is very telling.

Also, I can tell you how sexism against women affects Muslim women, but till now you haven’t been able to tell me the specific sexism Muslim men face. I can’t tell take you seriously when you can’t even do that as you can’t even fully argue against my point.

My earlier point still stands, if islam is truly important to us as we claim then it's only fair to be against any ideology that goes against it
I’m completely okay with that stance. But equating women’s rights in an Islamic framework is problematic. You’re doing this to dismiss and diminish my point.

I’m talking about Muslim spaces and Muslim countries. Our norms and values are different to gaals. Asian girls still deal with honor killing and having to live with in-laws and being their personal maids. Arabs also have their own cultural hangups. As Somalis we have men who engage in polygamous unions without being able to afford it and some running back home and running out on their children. Women don’t ask for child support and our shamed for going to the courts. Half of the time older gen Somalis don’t even have the language skills to find help and usually the men run back home so that wouldn’t even do anything. That is a stark contrast to white women getting alimony. So why are we brushed with the same brush when our life experiences are so different?

My issue is that when women bring this up, they’re dismissed, ignored or the men simply justify it by using Islam and twisting it. Their is no accountability in our respective communities similarly to how you could argue there is no accountability for Western women. What is sad is that Muslim women in the West are beaten using the same yard stick as cadaan women.

We don’t/can’t live our lives as an cadaan Kafiirah and Alhamdulliah for that. so using the whole women in the West not having accountability with regards to us is laughable as we both know that due to double standards, it is socially acceptable for a man to have a past but a Muslima in such a situation would be find it hard to marry and be ostracized.

Laws? Even In Muslim countries their aren’t laws protecting people from negative beliefs as that is based on your nafs. So what are you getting at? You can’t regulate people in that manner. There isn’t a police that knocks on every door asking people what their views are or if they prayed. Rather confusing what you’re asking tbh.

I never said it wasn’t important. Why is one or the other? Is that the only you can come up with any form of argument? Why are you talking to me like I’m a secularist who believes that LGTB ect is okay or that I don’t believe we shouldn’t have laws in place to protect men and women from this?!

These ideologies are based on consumption and making sure kids aren’t exposed to that. BOTH men and women are susceptible to these ideologies and it is up to us as parents and a communities to protect our children. We need to come together as men and women and we can only do that If we value each other. The issue is that in the Muslim community, one gender clearly isn’t. That isn’t to suggest that men are never oppressed or that they don’t have their own host of issues. I’m very aware that life isn’t black and white, but right now I’m specifically talking about sexism.


Accountability in what though? Your whole argument is that because there are woman who take of their hijab and fall for kufr ideologies that means sexism isn’t an issue and that some men shouldn’t be held accountable?

You do know that as a community we can tackle various issues right? Why use one issue to dismiss and push aside another? I never once said that gaal idealogy isn’t harmful, yet your whole take hinges upon on your lying or distorting my point to pretend that I’m okay with that.

Could you for once take a step back and stop deflecting away the unislamic beliefs that you hold. it's just getting worse, now you claim that women can't oppress men simply because men have a degree of superiority ? women are incapable of dhulm towards men because they're weaker physically ? a woman kicking, biting, punching a man isn't dhulm because it lacks the same level of impact than when a man does it ? as such it's okay to hate, insult and abuse men ?

So you judge innocent men to be oppressors because of their physicality & the fact that other men oppress women? I'm an oppressor because a man somewhere oppressed a woman ? You've internalised foreign ideas contrary to diinta and judge men based on them. Your hate men yet want them to care and fight for your rights, why should they when you completely dismiss and view them as agents of oppression ?

Islamic notions of justice is out the window when it relates to the treatment of men yet when it comes to women you want them ? you point fingers at men for going against islam in how they treat women but remain completely silent when you & other women contradict diinta in how you treat men.

I'm not dismissing anything merely pointing out the inconsistencies in your actions , stop using the oppression & injustice of other women to justify your unislamic views. You can't cherry pick what you want from feminist discourse and have problems when muslims men do the same for red-pill ideology. You're in the same boat as the people you accuse yet remain oblivious to this. Hatred of men is fine because men are superior and have the ability to oppress women far more than vice-versa.

 

[Angelina]

Could you for once take a step back and stop deflecting away the unislamic beliefs that you hold. it's just getting worse,

Please point to the unIslamic beliefs. What did I say that is downright haram?

now you claim that women can't oppress men simply because men have a degree of superiority ? women are incapable of dhulm towards men because they're weaker physically ?

Anyone is capable of dhulm, but men statistically and socially men are much more likely to be physically abusive towards women than the other way around. That is a fact. You’re arguing with me over facts. It is a also a fact that women are more vulnerable. You know this, so stop feigning ignorance.

a woman kicking, biting, punching a man isn't dhulm because it lacks the same level of impact than when a man does it ? as such it's okay to hate, insult and abuse men ?

Women on average aren’t as violent, women tend to be emotionally abusive. I’m talking averages here. Of course there are violent and unhinged women, but guess what? Women murdering men is a tiny and I mean tiny percentage to men killing women.

So you judge innocent men to be oppressors because of their physicality & the fact that other men oppress women?

When and where did I ever say that all men are the same. You’re being emotional right and now and putting words in my mouth.
Show me where I said this now. Show me now.

I'm an oppressor because a man somewhere oppressed a woman ?

Again, stop being emotional. Where and when did I say you’re an oppressive. Since when are all men abusive? I’m talking about the general sexism we see in society but now you want to make it personal and resort to illogical points. Show me where I said you and all other men are all abusive.

These are the facts:

1. Women are much more likely to be killed by a man.

2. A man is much more likely to be killed and oppressed by a fellow man.

these are statistical facts in which multiple studies show this, in nearly every society.

You've internalised foreign ideas contrary to diinta and judge men based on them. Your hate men yet want them to care and fight for your rights, why should they when you completely dismiss and view them as agents of oppression ?

What foreign ideals?

1. Women are more vulnerable? Facts
2. Women are much more likely to killed by their parents? Facts
3. Men are much more likely to harmed by other men? Facts.

When the prophet s.a.w spoke about DS why did he talk about men hitting women and not the other way around?

I’m not saying that women don’t beat men, but it isn’t as common and women simply aren’t as strong as men, hence why all the hadiths we have of hitting spouses is usually about a man hitting his wife? Why? Answer this please? I love the fact that you’re feigning ignorance.

Islamic notions of justice is out the window when it relates to the treatment of men yet when it comes to women you want them ? you point fingers at men for going against islam in how they treat women but remain completely silent when you & other women contradict diinta in how you treat men.

More lies and straw men. You can’t debate with me without adding words to my mouth as you simply don’t have a counter argument. Lol, now you’re accusing me of mistreating men Authobillah. You see everything in this world.

I’ve said time and time again, tell me how women on a general scale oppress men in Islamic communities. I will happily listen. Are forced marriages against men rampant, are men cheated from inheritance by women, is DS against men high?

Actually tell me and I’m all ears.

I'm not dismissing anything merely pointing out the inconsistencies in your actions , stop using the oppression & injustice of other women to justify your unislamic views.

What unIslamic views. What did I say haram?

1. Saying that sexism is an issue in Islamic spaces? Is that haram?

2. Saying that women are much more likely to be attacked and killed by man, is that haram?

3. Saying that men are more likely to be oppressed by other men than women? Is that haram?

Tell me specifically what I said is haram?

You can't cherry pick what you want from feminist discourse and have problems when muslims men do the same for red-pill ideology.

I’m talking about mistreatment of women in Islamic spaces and you’re literally denying or dismissing by weaponizing feminism. I made it very clear to you, I don’t see myself as a feminist as feminism goes against beliefs such as obedience to husbands and men being the head of the household.

Therefore it seems to me arguing that women are more vulnerable which is a fact, much more likely to go through DS and that they are socially less valued is ‘feminist’? Do you actually hear yourself?

You're in the same boat as the people you accuse yet remain oblivious to this. Hatred of men is fine because men are superior and have the ability to oppress women far more than vice-versa.

In what ways, all you seem to do is throw baseless accusations by putting words in my mouth.

1. first you try to argue that I don’t care about outside gaal influences like LGTB with no proof.

2. Now you accuse me of believing all men are abusive when I didn’t say that at all.

3. Deny actual statistical facts and realities of women being more vulnerable than men. Even your own deen acknowledges that women are more vulnerable, yet you deny it to merely argue

There is a running theme here and that is you can’t argue a point without adding, twisting and using strawman points.

I’ve asked you questions, actually answer them instead of emotional ranting and saying things I never said.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Isn’t sexism a perfect example of a secular ideology that contradicts the deen?

Regardless, is an issue of Imaan bigger problem than an issue that physically harms/kills our women?

Imaan is a personal issue, you can surround someone with Islam and they will still go astray.

However, we can change sexism with education and campaigns.

Depends ? discrimination based on gender has existed since prehistoric times, what has changed however is definition of it. Even though there maybe some overlap between what islam considers to be sexist there's definitely big differences when it comes to the secular notions of it.

For example islam only allows certain roles for men only like leader of a nation, imam of a mosque this would definitely be considered to be a form of gender discrimination ie sexism there's more examples where the 2 worldviews don't align. In my discussion with angelina i believe we were both referring to the islamic definition of it


Sexism doesn't lead to mass killing of women furthermore kufr does indeed harm women. Is it nor true that secular liberalism has led to sexualisation & objectification of women, take for instance ography, rise of abortions, STD's etc. So how come these aren't an issues here

Is a person's akhriiqa worth more than this dunya ? of course it is as this world is a temporary world laakin the hereafter isn't

Attach any examples during this calendar year.

I regularly reflect on biases and admit to them, however, I do not profess my online persona on being a god-fearing/serving person.

So you could argue that the standards for you are different to mine.

Don't need to look far this thread page 11 i believe. The more reflective and conscious you're of your actions & beliefs the easier it becomes to look at things properly & stay away from things that aren't allowed. Easier said than done though as we're prone to make mistakes, this is where tawbah comes in

 

[Angelina]

Depends ? discrimination based on gender has existed since prehistoric times, what has changed however is definition of it. Even though there maybe some overlap between what islam considers to be sexist there's definitely big differences when it comes to the secular notions of it.

For example islam only allows certain roles for men only like leader of a nation, imam of a mosque this would definitely be considered to be a form of gender discrimination ie sexism there's more examples where the 2 worldviews don't align. In my discussion with angelina i believe we were both referring to the islamic definition of it

yes we are. I have no issues with men being the head of society, women obeying their husbands in what is right and not harmful as Allah instructed and the husband being the head of the household. Due to these beliefs that contradict feminism, I don’t see myself as one and never will.

Sexism doesn't lead to mass killing of women furthermore kufr does indeed harm women. Is it nor true that secular liberalism has led to sexualisation & objectification of women, take for instance ography, rise of abortions, STD's etc. So how come these aren't an issues here

it does, and your ignorance is showing. Simply looking at the honor killing statistics in South Asia is enough. Along with DS levels in which 3 women are killed per week in the UK alone by their husbands/spouses. Also, in Somaliland they only changed the law of rapist being able to get away with it if he marries his victims. Then you have forced marriages with young girls and girls getting married off at like 12-13 before they have fully developed. Those are real Issues.

Also, the rise of P0rnography is indeed linked to sexism. Most of these videos on this disgusting corn sites are in fact of underaged groomed girls who being r-worded. With regards to prostitution, 70% are trafficked women from poor countries who have been lied about getting other types of normal jobs.

Objectification of women in indeed sexism. Who makes money from the images of women? Who own these multimillion dollar companies? Radical feminists are against objectification of women and regards as a modern form of oppression against Western women.

Many of the things you’ve listed are indeed sexism.

Is a person's akhriiqa worth more than this dunya ? of course it is as this world is a temporary world laakin the hereafter isn't

That is literally equivalent to me saying that we shouldn’t worry about r-word victims and other social issues of oppression because people are falling for secularism. That sounds illogical and above all unhinged. You’re comparing apples and oranges and you’re behaving as though we can’t look at both issues.

Don't need to look far this thread page 11 i believe. The more reflective and conscious you're of your actions & beliefs the easier it becomes to look at things properly & stay away from things that aren't allowed. Easier said than done though as we're prone to make mistakes, this is where tawbah comes in

But you don’t look at thinks properly. You’re unaware of the scale of sexism found in Muslim societies and the issues that Muslimas face. Then when we voice it and try to find solutions in Islamic manners and only want our God given rights you accused me of things I didn’t utter.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Please point to the unIslamic beliefs. What did I say that is downright haram?

Anyone is capable of dhulm, but men statistically and socially men are much more likely to be physically abusive towards women than the other way around. That is a fact. You’re arguing with me over facts. It is a also a fact that women are more vulnerable. You know this, so stop feigning ignorance.

Women on average aren’t as violent, women tend to be emotionally abusive. I’m talking averages here. Of course there are violent and unhinged women, but guess what? Women murdering men is a tiny and I mean tiny percentage to men killing women.

When and where did I ever say that all men are the same. You’re being emotional right and now and putting words in my mouth.
Show me where I said this now. Show me now.


Again, stop being emotional. Where and when did I say you’re an oppressive. Since when are all men abusive? I’m talking about the general sexism we see in society but now you want to make it personal and resort to illogical points. Show me where I said you and all other men are all abusive.

These are the facts:

1. Women are much more likely to be killed by a man.

2. A man is much more likely to be killed and oppressed by a fellow man.

these are statistical facts in which multiple studies show this, in nearly every society.

What foreign ideals?

1. Women are more vulnerable? Facts
2. Women are much more likely to killed by their parents? Facts
3. Men are much more likely to harmed by other men? Facts.

When the prophet s.a.w spoke about DS why did he talk about men hitting women and not the other way around?

I’m not saying that women don’t beat men, but it isn’t as common and women simply aren’t as strong as men, hence why all the hadiths we have of hitting spouses is usually about a man hitting his wife? Why? Answer this please? I love the fact that you’re feigning ignorance.


More lies and straw men. You can’t debate with me without adding words to my mouth as you simply don’t have a counter argument. Lol, now you’re accusing me of mistreating men Authobillah. You see everything in this world.

I’ve said time and time again, tell me how women on a general scale oppress men in Islamic communities. I will happily listen. Are forced marriages against men rampant, are men cheated from inheritance by women, is DS against men high?

Actually tell me and I’m all ears.

What unIslamic views. What did I say haram?

1. Saying that sexism is an issue in Islamic spaces? Is that haram?

2. Saying that women are much more likely to be attacked and killed by man, is that haram?

3. Saying that men are more likely to be oppressed by other men than women? Is that haram?

Tell me specifically what I said is haram?

I’m talking about mistreatment of women in Islamic spaces and you’re literally denying or dismissing by weaponizing feminism. I made it very clear to you, I don’t see myself as a feminist as feminism goes against beliefs such as obedience to husbands and men being the head of the household.

Therefore it seems to me arguing that women are more vulnerable which is a fact, much more likely to go through DS and that they are socially less valued is ‘feminist’? Do you actually hear yourself?

In what ways, all you seem to do is throw baseless accusations by putting words in my mouth.

1. first you try to argue that I don’t care about outside gaal influences like LGTB with no proof.

2. Now you accuse me of believing all men are abusive when I didn’t say that at all.

3. Deny actual statistical facts and realities of women being more vulnerable than men. Even your own deen acknowledges that women are more vulnerable, yet you deny it to merely argue

There is a running theme here and that is you can’t argue a point without adding, twisting and using strawman points.

I’ve asked you questions, actually answer them instead of emotional ranting and saying things I never said.

You've not answered the very simple question that i asked, why i had to repeat my question 2 before i got a valid response from you ? The first 2 times i asked why it was ok to hate men you stated the following reasoning

1. Because hatred of women is usually met with violence

When i finally asked again why you weren't able to give a valid answer for the first 2 times, this was your reply

I said this, because women hating men doesn’t result in death or oppression, especially back home. This is a fact. There is no denying that hating men creates societal issues such women refusing to marry, disrespect and raising kids in unstable environments. But to suggest that the consequences of hating men is the same as hating women is a joke because ultimately men and women aren’t equal.

Other than trying to justify hatred of men, how is your answer relevant to the question i asked ? i asked why couldn't you just say that hatred of men is wrong from the get go, your reply was to offer an explanation that justifies hatred of men. In the above explanation you affirm the problems associated with hating men and conclude that hating women is more detrimental & that there's no similarity with hating men.

Here's the thing i never asked you about the consequences of hating men or which of the 2 was worse. I asked why did you not say that hatred of men was wrong from the beginning ? Now the only logical point that can be drawn from your reply is that it answers the question why hatred of men is justified while hatred of women isn't.

How is the above consistent with your statement that hatred of men is wrong ? did you even mean it when wrote that ? if yes then why are offering explanations that justifies hatred of men ? something has to give


This is why i said you were inconsistent in your actions & beliefs. mind you this is just one issue. You make continuous assumptions about things i've not asked or stated all in the attempt to deflect away accountability & your true reasons underlying your support & rejection of certain views.

You talk about men's double standards yet you're guilty of it as well, what does this accomplish ? Nothing this entire discussion proves that gender centric discourses only leads to further polarisation, male readers reading will support me while the female users will support you. That's about it, we're were we started and this will never change as along as we project our biases and make judgments based on them

 

[Angelina]

You've not answered the very simple question that i asked, why i had to repeat my question 2 before i got a valid response from you ? The first 2 times i asked why it was ok to hate men you stated the following reasoning

1. Because hatred of women is usually met with violence

When i finally asked again why you weren't able to give a valid answer for the first 2 times, this was your reply



Other than trying to justify hatred of men, how is your answer relevant to the question i asked ? i

That wasn’t justification in the slightest. I was showing that the hatred of women is not the same as men are simply not hated in that way by women since they’re usually oppressed by other men. My whole point is, men are usually attacked and oppressed by other men.
Why is that a hard concept for you to understand or am I simply not expressing myself properly?

asked why couldn't you just say that hatred of men is wrong from the get go, your reply was to offer an explanation that justifies hatred of men.

Of course, it’s wrong and I said it the second time once I understood what you were getting at. But noting that men and women aren’t the same and that as a man your oppresser is much more likely to be a man isn’t justification. That is YOU merely being uncomfortable with reality as your WHOLE arguement goes out the window.

You’re trying to claim ‘reverse sexism’ as a counter argument as to why I a woman shouldn’t focus on sexism against women. That is to be frank laughable as sexism towards men from women is hardly a societal issue in the Muslim community as most issues impacting men are usually in the hands of other men. I even asked you to show me examples of general female oppression and you weren’t even able to give me an example.

if I’m mistaken show me an example?

In the above explanation you affirm the problems associated with hating men and conclude that hating women is more detrimental & that there's no similarity with hating men.

Men simply aren’t hated by women the same way as men are oppressed and attacked by other men. That is a fact. Every statistic would/agree with me. Therefore what is controversial about
I’m saying?

That does not mean I believed that hating men Is acceptable whatsoever. I want women and men to be treated in dignity and that believing men and women to work together for the sake of the

Here's the thing i never asked you about the consequences of hating men or which of the 2 was worse.

Well that is how I understood it. You will never catch me thinking that hating men is acceptable. I don’t, I even said men are our fathers, brothers and husbands. I don’t think there is anything better than a good, God fearing man and I have no issues with Islamic concepts such as obedience to one’s husband ect.

I asked why did you not say that hatred of men was wrong from the beginning ? Now the only logical point that can be drawn from your reply is that it answers the question why hatred of men is justified while hatred of women isn't.

Not logical at all. As I’ve said twice that I didn’t. Also, hatred of men literally had nothing to do with the initial arguments. Also, whenever, a woman talks about sexism towards women, why would you quickly change the conversation to hatred of men? Why? That is literally the equivalent of a white person bring up racism against them, when a black man talks about racism.

How is the above consistent with your statement that hatred of men is wrong ? did you even mean it when wrote that ? if yes then why are offering explanations that justifies hatred of men ? something has to give

justification? No I was merely showing you that men and women aren’t the same and using the whole hatred of men argument is neither here nor there. As a man you’re generally oppressed by other men. So why bring it up?

This is why i said you were inconsistent in your actions & beliefs. mind you this is just one issue. You make continuous assumptions about things i've not asked or stated all in the attempt to deflect away accountability & your true reasons underlying your support & rejection of certain views.

That isn’t justification whatsoever and to read it that way is gross distortion. I’ve made it clear that man are rarely attacked or harmed by womens hatred, they are oppressed and harmed by other men’s hatred.

please explain how that fact is a form of justification. It is either you’re delusional and have issues with actual facts or you’re not fully comprehending what I’m writing

You talk about men's double standards yet you're guilty of it as well, what does this accomplish ?

Double standards in what aspect.
Simple question:

Do you think my overall point of men mostly being effected by other men’s hatred and violence rather than womens and women being effected by men a double standard?

Yes or no? Because if you do, you clearly have issues with reality and I can show you various studies

Nothing this entire discussion proves that gender centric discourses only leads to further polarisation, male readers reading will support me while the female users will support you.

No, what is polarizing is the inability to understand and accept certain facts.

1. men are impacted by other mens violence and hatred.

2. Women are mostly impacted by men’s oppression and violence:

You regard those two statements as double standards. Yet that is the reality on the ground in most countries around the world. Why is that controversial?

That's about it, we're were we started and this will never change as along as we project our biases and make judgments based on them

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

That wasn’t justification in the slightest. I was showing that the hatred of women is not the same as men are simply not hated in that way by women since they’re usually oppressed by other men. My whole point is, men are usually attacked and oppressed by other men.
Why is that a hard concept for you to understand or am I simply not expressing myself properly?


Of course, it’s wrong and I said it the second time once I understood what you were getting at. But noting that men and women aren’t the same and that as a man you’re oppresser is much more likely to be a man isn’t justification. That is YOU merely being uncomfortable with reality as your WHOLE arguement goes out the window.

Men simply aren’t hated by women the same way as men are oppressed and attacked by other men. That is a fact. Every statistic would/agree with me. Therefore what is controversial about
I’m saying?

That does not mean I believed that hating men Is acceptable whatsoever. I want women and men to be treated in dignity and that believing men and women to work together for the sake of the


Well that is how I understood it. You will never catch me thinking that hating men is acceptable. I don’t, I even said men are our fathers, brothers and husbands. I don’t think there is anything better than a good, God fearing man and I have no issues with Islamic concepts such as obedience to one’s husband ect.

Not logical at all. As I’ve said twice that I didn’t. Also, hatred of men literally had nothing to do with the initial arguments. Also, whenever, a woman talks about sexism towards women, why would you quickly change the conversation to hatred of men? Why? That is literally the equivalent of a white person bring up racism against them, when a black man talks about racism.

justification? No I was merely showing you that men and women aren’t the same and using the whole hatred of men argument is neither here nor there. As a man you’re generally oppressed by other men. So why bring it up?


That isn’t justification whatsoever and to read it that way is gross distortion. I’ve made it clear that man are rarely attacked or harmed by womens hatred, they are oppressed and harmed by other men’s hatred.

please explain how that fact is a form of justification. It is either you’re delusional and have issues with actual facts or you’re not fully comprehending what I’m writing

Double standards in what aspect.
Simple question:

Do you think my overall point of men mostly being effected by other men’s hatred and violence rather than womens and women being effected by men a double standard?

Yes or no? Because if you do, you clearly have issues with reality and I can show you various studies



No, what is polarizing is the inability to understand and accept certain facts.

1. men are impacted by other mens violence and hatred.

2. Women are mostly impacted by men’s oppression and violence:

You regard those two statements as double standards. Yet that is the reality on the ground in most countries around the world. Why is that controversial?

Yes it was a justification for the hatred of men, how convenient of you to claim now that's how you understood it when you didn't even bother to explain yourself or ask me despite the mulitple times i asked you that question.

You perfectly understood what i was asking as in every single time you replied back you always added an explanation why hatred of men can't be compared to that of women. Even after i asked why you didn't affirm hatred of men was wrong from the start you never bothered to ask me to explain what hatred of men nor did you state that there was a misunderstanding


Why is hatred of men okay ?, What are the Consequences of hating men ?, and Which is worse hatred of men or hatred of women ? are totally different questions i was waiting for you to see if you were going to own up to your mistakes


This is not the first time you completely dismiss hatred of men as something trivial despite you affirming & acknowledging that it's bad. Remember the thread of FDS female version of red pill ideology , you kept on asking me what was bad about their advice even though you mentioned 2 very good reasons ie they supported zina & hatred of men. The extent that you're willing to give benefit of the doubt and overlook clear cut problematic views all on the basis of gender is my contention with you.

This is also the same reason why you had problems when i stated that muslim women should be equally against feminism just like they're against red pill ideology.


In this thread you trivialise & dismiss hatred of men by comparing it to the extreme cases of violence towards women to shut down any attempt of discussion. You had the audacity to even claim that hatred of men doesn't lead to death of men

You are very dismissive towards men and belittle their trials & hardships, there's no islamic principles, beliefs etc that propagates such views of men. Question is where did you adopt them from ?

 

[Angelina]

Yes it was a justification for the hatred of men, how convenient of you to claim now that's how you understood it when you didn't even bother to explain yourself or ask me despite the mulitple times i asked you that question.

Strawman argument. Never said I hated men. You have nothing to go on than mere accusations. I even said:



My point was never that hating men is acceptable it was very much a case of me explaining that men aren't

You perfectly understood what i was asking as in every single time you replied back you always added an explanation why hatred of men can't be compared to that of women.

You asked why isn't hatred of men a problem, I thought you meant why isn't it a problem as in an actual issue in society. My intention wasn't to say it is okay, intention was to articulate that it isn't an issue as men's issue and oppression usually stem from other men. Men are for example much more likely to be murdered, but not due to sexism as they're murdered by other men ect. Wallahi, Allah being my witness that was my intention.


This is what I asked you after you asked me the questions:

I made it clear that I felt like you were throwing around accusations, my intentions wasn't to to justify hatred of men, it was to say that men aren't mistreated by women the way men mistreat women, hence why I asked you what men go through generally on a societal level by the hands of women. Yet you couldn't even answer without faux outrage. I actually would have taken note, yet you did not want to eleborate or discuss your point further.

Why is hatred of men okay ?, What are the Consequences of hating men ?, and Which is worse hatred of men or hatred of women ? are totally different questions i was waiting for you to see if you were going to own up to your mistakes

When did I say hatred of men is okay?! Another point was that is a silly question used to deflect and undermine the sexism women suffer.

That is equivalent to a black person talking about racism and then a white person starts asking about white people hated. It’s a mere gaslighting tactic and I won’t fall for it.

Afterwards I even said that men are our brothers, fathers and husbands, yet here you are STILL trying to run with that accusations because you literally do not have a leg to stand on.

This is not the first time you completely dismiss hatred of men as something trivial despite you affirming & acknowledging that it's bad.

You’ve not answered any of my questions. When YOU asked if hating men was wrong. Its wrong, wrong and wrong. Are you still going to accuse me Aduunka because you have 0 points.
I eventually told you it’s wrong, but you haven’t answered mine:

1. Do you deny that men usually suffer hatred and oppression at the hands of other men rather than women?

2. if you know this to be true, why bring up reverse sexism when a woman is talking about the issues women face in the community?

3.what are your intentions? To dismiss, disarm? To act like men and women are the same and that men too are lined up in DV centres like women? What exactly, because your whole argument hinges upon the idea that men and women oppress each other equally, but reality makes your argument fall apart.

Remember the thread of FDS female version of red pill ideology , you kept on asking me what was bad about their advice even though you mentioned 2 very good reasons ie they supported zina & hatred of men.
The extent that you're willing to give benefit of the doubt and overlook clear cut problematic views all on the basis of gender is my contention with you.

This is also the same reason why you had problems when i stated that muslim women should be equally against feminism just like they're against red pill ideology.


In this thread you trivialise & dismiss hatred of men by comparing it to the extreme cases of violence towards women to shut down any attempt of discussion. You had the audacity to even claim that hatred of men doesn't lead to death of men

Nope you’re a liar. That is my issue.

I’ll ask you again, do you deny that men suffer oppression and hatred at the hands of other men more generally? If you deny this, this tells me how much of a liar you are. You know once you admit to this, all of your paragraphs and waffling was for nothing.

The reality is that men do not suffer sexism from women the way women do men. That is a fact. That was my whole point from the very beginning and Allah is my witness and if YOU think that is me justifying male hatred then you're a denier of truth.

Trying to act like men and women are the same in that matter is gaslighting and evading reality and I will not stand for that. Answer that question first and foremost. Instead of beating around the bush.

You are very dismissive towards men and belittle their trials & hardships, there's no islamic principles, beliefs etc that propagates such views of men. Question is where did you adopt them from ?

The trails and tribulations of men is usually in the hands of the other men. You’re denying actual statistical evidence. There is no denying that there are hateful and abusive women out there, but generally a man is much more likey to be hurt and mistreated by another man. Again, aduunka do you deny this? Answer that question, we'll see how honest of a person you are. When society, statistics and anecdotes say otherwise and it is a fact you know deep down but you continue this shameful charade for argument sake, it is clear something is wrong. Men and women are not the same, women have always been more at the mercy of men than the other way around.

Explain to me how that contradicts Quran and Sunnah, what I just said?

I will not let you manipulate and browbeat me.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Strawman argument. Never said I hated men. You have nothing to go on than mere accusations. I even said:



My point was never that hating men is acceptable it was very much a case of me explaining that men aren't

You asked why isn't hatred of men a problem, I thought you meant why isn't it a problem as in an actual issue in society. My intention wasn't to say it is okay, intention was to articulate that it isn't an issue as men's issue and oppression usually stem from other men. Men are for example much more likely to be murdered, but not due to sexism as they're murdered by other men ect. Wallahi, Allah being my witness that was my intention.


This is what I asked you after you asked me the questions:

View attachment 241270
I made it clear that I felt like you were throwing around accusations, my intentions wasn't to to justify hatred of men, it was to say that men aren't mistreated by women the way men mistreat women, hence why I asked you what men go through generally on a societal level by the hands of women. Yet you couldn't even answer without faux outrage. I actually would have taken note, yet you did not want to eleborate or discuss your point further.


When did I say hatred of men is okay?! Another point was that is a silly question used to deflect and undermine the sexism women suffer.

That is equivalent to a black person talking about racism and then a white person starts asking about white people hated. It’s a mere gaslighting tactic and I won’t fall for it.

Afterwards I even said that men are our brothers, fathers and husbands, yet here you are STILL trying to run with that accusations because you literally do not have a leg to stand on.

You’ve not answered any of my questions. When YOU asked if hating men was wrong. Its wrong, wrong and wrong. Are you still going to accuse me Aduunka because you have 0 points.
I eventually told you it’s wrong, but you haven’t answered mine:

1. Do you deny that men usually suffer hatred and oppression at the hands of other men rather than women?

2. if you know this to be true, why bring up reverse sexism when a woman is talking about the issues women face in the community?

3.what are your intentions? To dismiss, disarm? To act like men and women are the same and that men too are lined up in DV centres like women? What exactly, because your whole argument hinges upon the idea that men and women oppress each other equally, but reality makes your argument fall apart.


Nope you’re a liar. That is my issue.

I’ll ask you again, do you deny that men suffer oppression and hatred at the hands of other men more generally? If you deny this, this tells me how much of a liar you are. You know once you admit to this, all of your paragraphs and waffling was for nothing.

The reality is that men do not suffer sexism from women the way women do men. That is a fact. That was my whole point from the very beginning and Allah is my witness and if YOU think that is me justifying male hatred then you're a denier of truth.

Trying to act like men and women are the same in that matter is gaslighting and evading reality and I will not stand for that. Answer that question first and foremost. Instead of beating around the bush.


The trails and tribulations of men is usually in the hands of the other men. You’re denying actual statistical evidence. There is no denying that there are hateful and abusive women out there, but generally a man is much more likey to be hurt and mistreated by another man. Again, aduunka do you deny this? Answer that question, we'll see how honest of a person you are. When society, statistics and anecdotes say otherwise and it is a fact you know deep down but you continue this shameful charade for argument sake, it is clear something is wrong. Men and women are not the same, women have always been more at the mercy of men than the other way around.

Explain to me how that contradicts Quran and Sunnah, what I just said?

I will not let you manipulate and browbeat me.

Like i stated earlier you make assumption on things that i've not even mentioned or even denied. Take for instance male on male violence this is what i stated on #281

This is was your reply #282

Notice you how you dismiss my main point regarding the prioritization of oppression ? You affirm that men are victims of oppression laakin when i ask why men should give priority to women's oppression. You immediately shut the discussion by claiming it's an attempt to silence issues faced by women ? Why is this ?

Nobody is stopping you from talking about issues affecting you just don't dictate to men that their oppression is trivial compared to yours. If i'm more likely to be oppressed & killed by a fellow man why should i prioritise your issues ? After all you're a random woman not related to me so other than women from my family why should i care about any random woman out there ?

Would you prioritise the safety of a random woman over women in your family ? Why would i as a father fear for the safety of a random woman over the safety of my own son ? The deen doesn't tell me to fear for the safety of a random woman over my own son, so my question still stands. What kind of a father would i be if i cared for the safety of a random woman over my own flesh & blood ?


Just because a father would fear for the safety of his daughter over his son doesn't equate to the father prioritising safety of random girls over his own son. So your analogy of using the family is completely flawed as it doesn't apply to my question

That's why i stated gender centric approach to dealing with issues only leads to more problems. If you ONLY care about what happens to your gender, men will do exactly the same


Had i not asked multiple times , laid out the logical conclusions of your views, took the time to explain what i asked & relevance of your replies we would've never come to any sort of conclusion regarding your replies. Anyone reading it would've come to the same conclusion prior to the clarification above. I don't know what your intention is & can only comment on what's in front of me & not your heart.

 

[Angelina]

Like i stated earlier you make assumption on things that i've not even mentioned or even denied. Take for instance male on male violence this is what i stated on #281

View attachment 241295

This is was your reply #282

View attachment 241296

Notice you how you dismiss my main point regarding the prioritization of oppression ? You affirm that men are victims of oppression laakin when i ask why men should give priority to women's oppression. You immediately shut the discussion by claiming it's an attempt to silence issues faced by women ? Why is this ?

Because right now, the whole discussion was to talk about sexism faced by women in Islamic spaces? That was a clear diversion tactic and a way to diminish women's issues.

Post in thread 'Somali girl speaks on her brother getting killed by gang violence and dissed in music'

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/somali-girl-speaks-on-her-brother-getting-killed-by-gang-violence-and-dissed-in-music.138199/post-3424980

Look at this example, not once did I mention women as we women are hardly victims of gang violence in the UK. If someone bought women up when we're talking about what young men are facing, i'd be confused.

IF we were talking about male issues like men facing more violence such as knife crime ect why would I bring up women? I assure you I wouldn't.

Literally, in the thread about boys and hood violence and I didn't talk about women whatsoever, why? Because I was dedicating that moment to the issues faced by young men.

That was me being respectful. I care about an array of societal issues. But I find infuriating is that many brothers sinply cannot talk about infringement of women without trying to bring in feminism, male rights ect. Lets be compassionate and focus on all of our issues and remember there is a time and place.

Nobody is stopping you from talking about issues affecting you just don't dictate to men that their oppression is trivial compared to yours.

Male issue isn't trivial. I merely pointed out that as a man your biggest oppressors are other men. Mentioning that isn't trivializing. In another recent thread when others were bashing young boys that joined gangs, I was quick to talk about how they're groomed and the issues of boys growing up in poor areas and how the effects can be terrible. Not once did I mention women.

If i'm more likely to be oppressed & killed by a fellow man why should i prioritise your issues ? After all you're a random woman not related to me so other than women from my family why should i care about any random woman out there ?

Because as a community we can talk about various things and this isn't about priorities. I as a woman with younger brothers and cousins who once grew up in a working class area which I talked about in another thread would often be scared shitless for them. At times more so for them than my sisters. That is the thing, as a community we can work together without shutting each other down.


It might have come across as though I was dismissing male issues in general, but I was not. I was looking purely at sexism against men from women, but as we both know men have various issues, especially working class boys which im all too aware of and invested in.

Would you prioritise the safety of a random woman over women in your family ? Why would i as a father fear for the safety of a random woman over the safety of my own son ?

The thing is, as a father sadly you'll priotise the safety of your daughter over son because you know that women are weaker and if preyed upon by a man, wouldn't be able to defend herself. Also, you'll also be more concerned about her marriage than your son as a woman is at the mercy of her husband more so than the other way around.

It is to your benefit that sexism is reduced as the likelihood of your daughters going through certain things are lower.

Similarly it is to my benefit that the root cases of knife crime, male violence ect is low because as a sister, potential mother InshaAllah, I can feel more relief knowing that my sons can be out there and not be attacked by holigans.

The deen doesn't tell me to fear for the safety of a random woman over my own son, so my question still stands. What kind of a father would i be if i cared for the safety of a random woman over my own flesh & blood ?

The deen tells us to care about the safety of all. Simply understanding that women are more at the mercy of men doesn't take away the fact that your sons can have their own trails and tribulations. But my point is those trails,God forbid will rarely be the hands of a woman, although yes some women are emotionally and mentally abusive and that is a conversation to be had.

Just because a father would fear for the safety of his daughter over his son doesn't equate to the father prioritising safety of random girls over his own son. So your analogy of using the family is completely flawed as it doesn't apply to my question

I never said that. It is Illogical for anyone to prioritize the safety of randoms over family. For all my championing of women's rights, my brothers safety is more important than a random woman. That is simply human nature and that isn't here nor there.

I used family to show you that you'll worry more about your daughters because you KNOW women on average are more vulnerable. That is it and it is an easy concept to understand.

Remember when the Prophet s.a.w used an example of a man's sisters and daughters to talk about the gravity of Zina? That is a tactic to use to get men to think about the overall society as something that effects random wonen can easily impact your own daughters. Hence, it was a way for me to get you to think.

That's why i stated gender centric approach to dealing with issues only leads to more problems. If you ONLY care about what happens to your gender, men will do exactly the same

I never said i only care about my gender. If I only cared about my gender I wouldn't be writing paragraphs about issues impacting boys. When I did, i never once mentioned women because now was the time due to the nature of the topic to concern myself with men's issues without hijaking the topic.

Had i not asked multiple times , laid out the logical conclusions of your views, took the time to explain what i asked & relevance of your replies we would've never come to any sort of conclusion regarding your replies.

Anyone reading it would've come to the same conclusion prior to the clarification above. I don't know what your intention is & can only comment on what's in front of me & not your heart.

I had tunnel vision and was merely looking and male and female dynamic. That is it. I'm fully aware that men in this dunya have a whole host of issues. I think as a community we can talk about sexism and talk about the male issues. We can and should do both. Like I said, I genuinely often worry about young Somali boys and being in a working class area and visiting family in estates, I've seen boys be groomed by this druggie shaytans and i'm the first to say that this is standard grooming and half of the time these boys haven't even reached 13, so how can we bash them?

I simply want the men in our communities to give us that same compassion and when we are talking about women's issues, we are not met with 'whataboutism' as a tactic to diminish our issues. Like imagine if I turned around and said boys being groomed is a minor issue because there are bigger issues of boys falling into zina or internalising kufr ideologies? I would be seen as incredibly uncompassionate and strange.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Because right now, the whole discussion was to talk about sexism faced by women in Islamic spaces? That was a clear diversion tactic and a way to diminish women's issues.

Post in thread 'Somali girl speaks on her brother getting killed by gang violence and dissed in music'

https://www.somalispot.com/threads/somali-girl-speaks-on-her-brother-getting-killed-by-gang-violence-and-dissed-in-music.138199/post-3424980

Look at this example, not once did I mention women as we women are hardly victims of gang violence in the UK. If someone bought women up when we're talking about what young men are facing, i'd be confused.

IF we were talking about male issues like men facing more violence such as knife crime ect why would I bring up women? I assure you I wouldn't.

Literally, in the thread about boys and hood violence and I didn't talk about women whatsoever, why? Because I was dedicating that moment to the issues faced by young men.

That was me being respectful. I care about an array of societal issues. But I find infuriating is that many brothers sinply cannot talk about infringement of women without trying to bring in feminism, male rights ect. Lets be compassionate and focus on all of our issues and remember there is a time and place.

Male issue isn't trivial. I merely pointed out that as a man your biggest oppressors are other men. Mentioning that isn't trivializing. In another recent thread when others were bashing young boys that joined gangs, I was quick to talk about how they're groomed and the issues of boys growing up in poor areas and how the effects can be terrible. Not once did I mention women.

Because as a community we can talk about various things and this isn't about priorities. I as a woman with younger brothers and cousins who once grew up in a working class area which I talked about in another thread would often be scared shitless for them. At times more so for them than my sisters. That is the thing, as a community we can work together without shutting each other down.


It might have come across as though I was dismissing male issues in general, but I was not. I was looking purely at sexism against men from women, but as we both know men have various issues, especially working class boys which im all too aware of and invested in.

The thing is, as a father sadly you'll priotise the safety of your daughter over son because you know that women are weaker and if preyed upon by a man, wouldn't be able to defend herself. Also, you'll also be more concerned about her marriage than your son as a woman is at the mercy of her husband more so than the other way around.

It is to your benefit that sexism is reduced as the likelihood of your daughters going through certain things are lower.

Similarly it is to my benefit that the root cases of knife crime, male violence ect is low because as a sister, potential mother InshaAllah, I can feel more relief knowing that my sons can be out there and not be attacked by holigans.



The deen tells us to care about the safety of all. Simply understanding that women are more at the mercy of men doesn't take away the fact that your sons can have their own trails and tribulations. But my point is those trails,God forbid will rarely be the hands of a woman, although yes some women are emotionally and mentally abusive and that is a conversation to be had.

I never said that. It is Illogical for anyone to prioritize the safety of randoms over family. For all my championing of women's rights, my brothers safety is more important than a random woman. That is simply human nature and that isn't here nor there.

I used family to show you that you'll worry more about your daughters because you KNOW women on average are more vulnerable. That is it and it is an easy concept to understand.

Remember when the Prophet s.a.w used an example of a man's sisters and daughters to talk about the gravity of Zina? That is a tactic to use to get men to think about the overall society as something that effects random wonen can easily impact your own daughters. Hence, it was a way for me to get you to think.

I never said i only care about my gender. If I only cared about my gender I wouldn't be writing paragraphs about issues impacting boys. When I did, i never once mentioned women because now was the time due to the nature of the topic to concern myself with men's issues without hijaking the topic.



I had tunnel vision and was merely looking and male and female dynamic. That is it. I'm fully aware that men in this dunya have a whole host of issues. I think as a community we can talk about sexism and talk about the male issues. We can and should do both. Like I said, I genuinely often worry about young Somali boys and being in a working class area and visiting family in estates, I've seen boys be groomed by this druggie shaytans and i'm the first to say that this is standard grooming and half of the time these boys haven't even reached 13, so how can we bash them?

I simply want the men in our communities to give us that same compassion and when we are talking about women's issues, we are not met with 'whataboutism' as a tactic to diminish our issues. Like imagine if I turned around and said boys being groomed is a minor issue because there are bigger issues of boys falling into zina or internalising kufr ideologies? I would be seen as incredibly uncompassionate and strange.

How can it be diversion when I already addressed the attack on the sister's podcast & stated that it was nothing more slander, an attack to discredit them etc.

Even when i'm in agreement with you regarding the attack on the sister's podcast you still claim that i'm belittling their issues simply because i questioned you about your selective prioritisation of women's issues. Did i ever once question anything about the attack on the sisters ? isn't this not a good example of being dismissive ?

Why is it that any time a man asks a question regarding questionable actions, views that women hold the response is to shut down and discredit the man ? are all men the same ? can there ever be a man who has valid criticisms ?


After addressing the issues i moved on and this is when you quoted my following post

This is where our disagreement comes in, your insistence on continuation of the gender centric paradigm and my objection to it. The sole reason why i kept on asking why should men prioritise women's issues over their own issues is because this is exactly what gender centric discourses reinforces

Prioritisation of rights based solely on the basis of gender is very problematic as gender becomes the reference point on how we seek our rights and interact with the opposite sex. If i as a man believe that women are oppressive to me how do you think i will interact with them ?

It's very easy to distinguish between a case of whataboutism and a genuine critique. For example i didn't not shy away from addressing the attack on the sisters, i didn't approve of such actions nor did i deflect by bringing into the discussion the issues of men while i was addressing it. I began speaking about it after finishing addressing the specific case about the sisters.

Not every instance of someone introducing men's or women's issues into a discussion can be labelled as "whataboutism" that's why it's important not to accuse people carelessly. As false accusations of whataboutism can be itself a mechanism of deflecting away valid views, criticisms etc

I totally understand your point and share your concerns about the general negativity & hostility towards women displayed by some men laakin you need to remember that they don't constitute a majority.