The One Who Believes In Secularism Is A Kafir - Shaykh Salih Al-Fawzan

[Lord]

Honesy i dont really care if you guys want to follow sharia. But lets be real, without freedom of speech and innovation you cant compete with the rest of the world. Clearly our role models have all failed. Dont forget that centralized power elimates talent. Individuism is the only way out of poverty.

Realistically this is what athoritarianism leads to.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Saudi is a Muslim country ruled by Muslims
So is Somalia, Pakistan , Senegal and everywhere else.

It was the extreme philosophy of the likes of Sheikh Fawzan that led Ibn Baz make a fatwa saying that Iraq was a kaffir country and that gulf war was a war betwen two kaffirs.

Judging by what Allah has revealed has different connotations. It means in one sense that you choose taghut as your guiding philosophy. All laws are man made laws. Islam has no problem with men making laws. There is a principle in fiqh termed as "Islahul Mubah" meaning restricting or regulating the permissible. In Islam, a girl can be married at 15 according to sharia but a country can decide to make the age of marriage 19 because a 15 year old today is pretty much retarded. That isn't going against what Allah revealed.

Judging by other than what Allah has revealed can be found on a subtle level in many politicians that rule in the Muslim world largely because of their own religious ignorance or (in some cases) nifaq. HOWEVER, the real version of this are those who when they set forth laws are either completely devoid of or antithetical towards Islamic principles such as Soviet era "Muslim" dictators and some Arab leaders today. To believe that Allah and his book should have no role in guiding your rule is to be a kaffir.

Nevertheless, the form of selecting a leader or passing laws does not make a country kaffir. A Muslim nation can be a kingdom, a dictatorship or a republic or a khilafa. Islam takes no issue with that. What Islam takes issue with is the leaders who after colonialism are virtual kaffirs.

My uncle tells me a story about being in a stadium event in a country 95% Muslim. The president was at the event and when maghrib reached, my uncle got up and went to go pray. Not a single soul stood up to go Pray with him. That illustrated to him that a good portion of those individuals ruling were zindeeqs munafiqs and virtual kaffirs. This is the problem that we have in the Muslim world. "Sheikhs" like fawzan who unknowingly serve as stooges for political figures and have very little understanding of the world, leaders that are kaffirs in every way but their name, and young salafis who likr Omar del sur who are well meaning but have limited understanding of usul ud deen or usul ul fiqh.

What does half of this have to do with the topic?

"My uncle tells me a story about being in a stadium event in a country 95% Muslim. The president was at the event and when maghrib reached, my uncle got up and went to go pray. Not a single soul stood up to go Pray with him. That illustrated to him that a good portion of those individuals ruling were zindeeqs munafiqs and virtual kaffirs."

What does any of that have to do with the subject?

So some people in a stadium didn't pray with your uncle. Also, there are corrupt Muslim rulers. Therefore- secularism is okay???

"young salafis who likr Omar del sur"

How young am I exactly? You think I'm young because I don't believe in secularism? When I'm older and wiser (insha'Allah), I'll become Westernized and believe that secularism is okay? Being an old wise person is about being Westernized?

So let me get this straight. Believing in shariah and in Islamic government is a Western colonial plot. I am a young naïve person who is an unwitting stooge of Western colonialism, due in part to my lack of knowledge of real Islam. Real Islam is about being Westernized and we need to fight Western colonialism by becoming Westernized and believing in Western liberal democracy.

 

[Lord]

What does half of this have to do with the topic?

"My uncle tells me a story about being in a stadium event in a country 95% Muslim. The president was at the event and when maghrib reached, my uncle got up and went to go pray. Not a single soul stood up to go Pray with him. That illustrated to him that a good portion of those individuals ruling were zindeeqs munafiqs and virtual kaffirs."

What does any of that have to do with the subject?

So some people in a stadium didn't pray with your uncle. Also, there are corrupt Muslim rulers. Therefore- secularism is okay???

"young salafis who likr Omar del sur"

How young am I exactly? You think I'm young because I don't believe in secularism? When I'm older and wiser (insha'Allah), I'll become Westernized and believe that secularism is okay? Being an old wise person is about being Westernized?

So let me get this straight. Believing in shariah and in Islamic government is a Western colonial plot. I am a young naïve person who is an unwitting stooge of Western colonialism, due in part to my lack of knowledge of real Islam. Real Islam is about being Westernized and we need to fight Western colonialism by becoming Westernized and believing in Western liberal democracy.

I think his point still stands. But How are you going to fight back? There is nothing in western values that tells you not belive in allah or hate gays.. You can do everything you want.

Why is it so hard för you mind your own business.

Freedom. Beats in every mans heart and what you guys are trying to promote will only cause harm to people.

 

[Omar del Sur]

@MuslimManMe can you show me the fatwa where Sheikh Ibn Baz declared Iraq a kaffir country? It's okay if it's in Arabic. I can take a look at the Arabic.

Furthermore- how would that have any bearing on whether we should accept secularism?

Since when does Islamic legislation derive from "Did you know Sheikh Ibn Baz did such-and-such in the early 90's?" ".... so this one time my uncle was in a stadium"

The rulings come from Quran and Sunnah. It has nothing to do with anecdotes about famous scholars or peoples' relatives. You could prove Sheikh Ibn Baz was torturing and killing puppies- it would make no difference in terms of Islamic legislation.

 

[Omar del Sur]

I think his point still stands. But How are you going to fight back? There is nothing in western values that tells you not belive in allah or hate gays.. You can do everything you want.

Why is it so hard för you mind your own business.

Freedom. Beats in every mans heart and what you guys are trying to promote will only cause harm to people.

Thank you for clarifying that you are in defense of Western values.

Me, I consider Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as Rasool Allaah. If you want to consider Thomas Jefferson and "Enlightenment"-era European philosophers with powdered wigs as messengers of Allah, that's your decision.

 

[bobsburger]

I think his point still stands. But How are you going to fight back? There is nothing in western values that tells you not belive in allah or hate gays.. You can do everything you want.

Why is it so hard för you mind your own business.

Freedom. Beats in every mans heart and what you guys are trying to promote will only cause harm to people.

Freedom to follow your lusts and desires will cause destruction in society. People are a creation with a creator. So it would be logical to have a system designed for them to operate. I will not "mind my business" because if they bring evil doing to society ALL of the people will feel it's negative effects whether they did it or not. So you can't be a bystander. Islam is not a religion as some may assume it is a COMPLETE way of life from first man to last. There is no such thing as "sharia is outdated" because humans have been the same since the beginning and the law does not need to change as human nature never changes. We follow Allah's law as he is the creator and he knows what is best for us and society at large.

 

[Giftxo]

Has every Islamic country survived with the sharia law currently though? If y’all are into it it’s your own opinion. But in our age of time sharia law wouldn’t really work

 

[Lord]

Freedom to follow your lusts and desires will cause destruction in society. People are a creation with a creator. So it would be logical to have a system designed for them to operate. I will not "mind my business" because if they bring evil doing to society ALL of the people will feel it's negative effects whether they did it or not. So you can't be a bystander. Islam is not a religion as some may assume it is a COMPLETE way of life from first man to last. There is no such thing as "sharia is outdated" because humans have been the same since the beginning and the law does not need to change as human nature never changes. We follow Allah's law as he is the creator and he knows what is best for us and society at large.

I dont think anyone who cause harm to others should not be punished, but as long as they are not harming you in anyways i dont see a problem. You are free to follow sharia as much as you please. Also you may want to be clear about what kind of evil are you talking about and how it effect you.

 

[Lord]

Thank you for clarifying that you are in defense of Western values.

Me, I consider Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as Rasool Allaah. If you want to consider Thomas Jefferson and "Enlightenment"-era European philosophers with powdered wigs as messengers of Allah, that's your decision.

THATS cynical but you are welcome.

 

[al-Mu'tamid المعتمد]

Has every Islamic country survived with the sharia law currently though? If y’all are into it it’s your own opinion. But in our age of time sharia law wouldn’t really work

It did read history. Infact modern countries like Saudi still implements sharia.

 

[Invader]

Honesy i dont really care if you guys want to follow sharia. But lets be real, without freedom of speech and innovation you cant compete with the rest of the world. Clearly our role models have all failed. Dont forget that centralized power elimates talent. Individuism is the only way out of poverty.

Realistically this is what athoritarianism leads to.

Freedom of speech is fine as long at it doesn’t include bashing religion. We are a democracy you know

 

[Invader]

Has every Islamic country survived with the sharia law currently though? If y’all are into it it’s your own opinion. But in our age of time sharia law wouldn’t really work

They did prior to colonialism once colonised they were forced to adopt their colonisers system.

 

[al-Mu'tamid المعتمد]

@Asli @Kenpachi

Because the Quran has meanings that are deeper thsn the apparent and you dont derive rulings from a single Quran verse if youdon't know it's relationship to other verses. Ill present two examples from one Surah to get you thinking before you just present Quran verses nilly willy.

˹“Gather the wrongdoers (WA AZWAJUHUM), and whatever they used to worship
instead of Allah, then lead them ˹all˺ to the path of Hell."

37:22 - 33

You reading this verse you would think it means gather the wrongdoers and their wives (Azwajuhum). The meaning however is gather the wrongdoers and their partners from the Shayateen ul Jinn. Meaning the wrongdoer and his demonic partner (not his wife) will be tossed in hell.

And the 158th verse
Allah says
They claim that He has kinship with the jinn, yet the jinn themselves know that they will be brought before Him.

You would think it wad referring to Jinn and youd be wrong. It refers to the Malaika who can also be termed as Jinn because they are hidden beings.

It's pretty clear to me. Denying to use the legislation of Allah and instead use that of people is a clear sign of disbelief. This does not take a person out of the fold of Islam but it's still a severe sin just like the scholars said.

Ibn Abbas was asked about Allah's statement, وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم (And whosoever does not judge...). He said, `It is an act of Kufr.'

Ibn Tawus added, `It is not like those who disbelieve in Allah, His angels, His Books and His Messengers.'

Ath-Thawri narrated that Ibn Jurayj said that Ata said, `There is Kufr and Kufr less than Kufr, Zulm and Zulm less than Zulm, Fisq and Fisq less than Fisq.'''

 

[Omar del Sur]

secularist: "Why don't you wahhabis mind your own business! Quran and Sunnah? Get this your thick skull, wahhabis: only God can judge me! *sends text message to random girl for private dawah session* What people do is their own business! Of course, I am a proud Muslim but what people do is their business. Justify why should it be permissible to believe in sharia."

Believing in sharia is part of believing in the din. Islam is based on Quran and Sunnah, not what random people think.

You secularists are defenders of "freedom" when it comes to zina but act like it's a crime to believe in Quran and Sunnah. So zina is permissible but believing in Quran and Sunnah is haraam?

If you don't believe in Quran and Sunnah that's your problem.

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

-Surah An-Nisa 4:59

So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part?

-Surah Al-Baqarah 2:85

To me is my way and if you want to call yourself a Muslim and only believe in the bits and parts of the din you like then to you is whatever it is you're following.


It doesn't matter whether you think sharia makes sense- it's part of the din whether you think it makes sense or you think it's fine for people to run around committing zina. We have to follow what the din teaches regardless of whether we think it makes sense to our limited intellects. Allah knows best.

Whether we know why pork is prohibited or not- we have to avoid it. Then science nowadays tells us all kinds of diseases that can come from pork. But if you really don't grasp how things like widespread zina can impact the society- this hadith makes it clear.

Al-Nu’man ibn Bashir reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “The parable of those who respect the limits of Allah and those who violate them is that of people who board a ship after casting lots, some of them residing in its upper deck and others in its lower deck. When those in the lower deck want water, they pass by the upper deck and say: If we tear a hole in the bottom of the ship, we will not harm those above us. If those in the upper deck let them do what they want, they will all be destroyed together. If they restrain them, they will all be saved together.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 2361

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Bukhari

Hadith on Limits: Parable of society like a ship

abuaminaelias.com

 

[Lord]

Freedom of speech is fine as long at it doesn’t include bashing religion. We are a democracy you know

Honestly i could brag about this but im using a Phone and I dont have the energy. Sharia in not compatible democracy. Atleast thats what i understöd but you are welcome to correct me @Omar del Sur

Acording to your logic tunisia, algeria and all kufr

 

[Invader]

Honestly i could brag about this but im using a Phone and I dont have the energy. Sharia in not compatible democracy. Atleast thats what i understöd but you are welcome to correct me @Omar del Sur

Acording to your logic tunisia, algeria and all kufr

Islam is the state religion for Algeria and prohibits state institutions from behaving in a manner incompatible with Islam.

Also the first president forced secularisation in the country in Tunisia without approval from the people.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Honestly i could brag about this but im using a Phone and I dont have the energy. Sharia in not compatible democracy. Atleast thats what i understöd but you are welcome to correct me @Omar del Sur

Acording to your logic tunisia, algeria and all kufr

What is even this concept of country-takfir?

There is the concept of whether a country is dar ul-Islam and there is dispute whether a country is dar-ul-Islam based on sharia or based on its population being Muslim.

Furthermore, according to my logic, Algeria is kufr? Algeria is a form of disbelief?

Did you mean to write kaffir? How can a country be a kaffir? A non-Muslim country?

I mean I guess a secular country with Muslim population is Muslim in one way and not in another way. You think I go and make takfir on countries and declare everyone in that country a kaffir?

 

[المهندس]

Scholars of the Sunnah are clearly stating an ijmaa (consensus), it doesn't get more clear than this.



Sheikh ul-Islam ibn Taymiyyah (ra) stated:

قال شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية رحمه الله تعالى: ‘والإنسان متى حلّل الحرام المجمع عليه أو حرّم الحلال المجمع عليه أو بدّلالشرع المجمع عليه؛ كان كافراً باتّفاق الفقهاء

“Whenever a person makes Halaal what is Haraam by consensus or makes Haraam what is Halaal by consensus or replaces the Shari’ah that is agreed upon by consensus, then he is a Kafir by the agreement of the scholars of Fiqh.” [Majmu al-Fatawa, 3/267]


al-Imam ibn Hazam (ra) stated:

قال ابن حزم رحمه الله تعالى: ‘من حكم بحكم الإنجيل ممّا لم يأت بالنص عليه وحيٌ في شريعة الإسلام؛ فإنّه كافر مشركخارج عن الإسلام

“Whoever rules by torah and injil in issues where there is no text from revelation in the Shari’ah of Islam; then he is a Kafir Mushrik outside of Islam. With the consensus of the Fuqaha [scholars of Fiqh].” [Ihkaam al-Ahkaam fi Usuol Al-Ahkaam, 5/153]


Ibn Kathir regarding the laws of the tartars in his time.

قال الحافظ ابن كثير رحمه الله: ‘فمن ترك الشرع المحكم، المنزل على محمد بن عبد الله خاتم الأنبياء وتحاكم إلى غيره منالشرائع المنسوخة كفر فكيف بمن تحاكم إلى الياسق وقدمها عليه؟ من فعل ذلك كفر بإجماع المسلمين

“Whoever does that, he has disbelieved by the Ijmaa of the Muslims.” [al-Bidayyah Wa’l Nihayyah, 13/118-119]


Ibn Kathir said:
So whoever abandons the perfect and clear legislation sent down to Muhammad bn ‘Abdullãh, the seal of the Prophets, and refers to other than it, from among the abrogated laws (i.e. the past revelations) has disbelieved. What then is the case of he who refers to al-Yãsã [4] , giving preference to it? Whoever does that has disbelieved according to the consensus of the Muslims. Allãh (تعالي) says: ‘Do they then seek the judgement of Jãhilīyah? And who is better in judgement than Allãh for a people who have certainty (of faith)’ (Al-Mã’idah: 50). And He (تعالي) says: ‘But no by your Lord, they do not believe, until they make you judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your rulings, and accept (them) in full submission.’ (An-Nisã’: 65). Allãh Al-Azīm has spoken the truth.”

(Al-Bidãyah wan-Nihãyah, Dãrul-Manãr: 13/111)


Imam Shawkani:
They refer for judgement to those among them who know the rulings of taaghoot (falsehood) concerning all matters that they come across, without anyone denouncing them and without their feeling any shame before Allah or His slaves



Undoubtedly this is kufr, disbelief in Allah and His shari'ah which He enjoined through his Messenger and chose for His slaves in His Book and on the lips of His Messenger. Indeed, they have disbelieved in all the laws from Adam (عليه السلام) to the present.
( Risaalah ad-Dawaa' al-'Aajil fi Daf al-'Adw was-Saa'il, included in Ar- Rasaa'il as-Salafiyah by Ash-Shawkaani, Pp. 33-34.)

 

[Lord]

What is even this concept of country-takfir?

There is the concept of whether a country is dar ul-Islam and there is dispute whether a country is dar-ul-Islam based on sharia or based on its population being Muslim.

Furthermore, according to my logic, Algeria is kufr? Algeria is a form of disbelief?

Did you mean to write kaffir? How can a country be a kaffir? A non-Muslim country?

I mean I guess a secular country with Muslim population is Muslim in one way and not in another way. You think I go and make takfir on countries and declare everyone in that country a kaffir?

Sorry im feeling rather tired. What im trying to understand is do you support democracy?

If not what does that make all muslim country that are Democratic and its citizens which btw the way somalia seem to be heading.

Im honestly just trying to be realistic and understand what you are advocating för.

 

[Lord]

Islam is the state religion for Algeria and prohibits state institutions from behaving in a manner incompatible with Islam.

Also the first president forced secularisation in the country in Tunisia without approval from the people.