The origin of the name Somali

[Samaalic Era]

If there was a Daarood he lived at least 40 generations ago, the length of the longest lineages, which places him between 1200 to 1300 years ago, or between 700 and 800 CE.

However the first Tanade Boqor is supposedly his grandson, which isn't likely in my opinion since how on earth can you have a kingdom when the entire clan population would have only been maybe a dozen people by that point.

Personally I think the clans are quite ancient, and that Daarood and the Sagaalka Samaale were all established already as clans by 700 CE, but there were no lineages yet, so the lineages started around the arrival of Islam starting with the leaders of the clans, with subject clans over time being adopted into the main branches.

The process of "lineageization" didn't happen at the same time but was slowly established so not all lineages are the same length, those that began later are shorter, not only because of lineage skipping but because of later starts.

What is the link between Samaale and Darood and what is their relation?

 

[James Dahl]

What is the link between Samaale and Darood and what is their relation?

Despite various clues and the Waaqist origin of the Daarood origin story (climbing down from the Wagar tree on the shoulders of Dir) the origins of the Daarood clan have been thoroughly Arabized, so like Isaaq their true origins are obscure.

 

[James Dahl]

Somalis of Yemeni origin seem to be limited to the Carab Saalax (who are Mehris) and certain Reer Banaadir clans especially the Reer Fiqi who are Ximyar of the Xadramawt lineage.

Historically Zeila had a larger Yemeni population even including some Yemeni Jews, but I don't think this is the case anymore.

 

[Factz]

If there was a Daarood he lived at least 40 generations ago, the length of the longest lineages, which places him between 1200 to 1300 years ago, or between 700 and 800 CE.

However the first Tanade Boqor is supposedly his grandson, which isn't likely in my opinion since how on earth can you have a kingdom when the entire clan population would have only been maybe a dozen people by that point.

Personally I think the clans are quite ancient, and that Daarood and the Sagaalka Samaale were all established already as clans by 700 CE, but there were no lineages yet, so the lineages started around the arrival of Islam starting with the leaders of the clans, with subject clans over time being adopted into the main branches.

The process of "lineageization" didn't happen at the same time but was slowly established so not all lineages are the same length, those that began later are shorter, not only because of lineage skipping but because of later starts.

Wrong, Somalis have always practised tribes and lineage system. When Islam came, Somalis began arabizing their lineage.

Here is the non-Arabized version of Gadabursi lineage.

Fake Qurayshized Dir lineage:

Somalis are not bastards and ancient Somalis were also mentioned for practising tribalism and having their own city-states so this alone should prove that this is part of our culture and there is nothing new about it.

 

[Samaalic Era]

Despite various clues and the Waaqist origin of the Daarood origin story (climbing down from the Wagar tree on the shoulders of Dir) the origins of the Daarood clan have been thoroughly Arabized, so like Isaaq their true origins are obscure.

Despite various clues and the Waaqist origin of the Daarood origin story (climbing down from the Wagar tree on the shoulders of Dir) the origins of the Daarood clan have been thoroughly Arabized, so like Isaaq their true origins are obscure.

Where is the location of this Wagar tree. I would like to visit this place myself sometime

 

[James Dahl]

I don't believe so, I think the arabization is a much later phenomenon. Somali clan organization is more hierarchical than traditional Cushitic clan organization like you see in Rendille or Oromo clans and lineage is less important in traditional Cushitic clans and things like moiety, age grade and age set are more important.

I believe the first change in arabization with Islam was a change in clan structures to be oriented more around individual clan leaders rather than age grades and age sets, and with this came the political importance of abtirsi, of lineage, and this is when the abtirsi practice began. It was only much later that these lineages were arabized for political purposes to add "baraka" to kingly lineages to help reinforce their rule as Somali clans moved to kingdoms and states in the middle ages.

 

[James Dahl]

Where is the location of this Wagar tree. I would like to visit this place myself sometime

There are wagar trees all over east Africa, they look like this:

In the ancient Waaqist religion they are sacred, they are the connection between heaven and earth and between Waaq and mankind.

The practice of making protection charms out of wagar wood for children is one of many holdovers that have survived the change from Waaqism to Islam.

 

[Apollo]

I don't believe so, I think the arabization is a much later phenomenon. Somali clan organization is more hierarchical than traditional Cushitic clan organization like you see in Rendille or Oromo clans and lineage is less important in traditional Cushitic clans and things like moiety, age grade and age set are more important.

I believe the first change in arabization with Islam was a change in clan structures to be oriented more around individual clan leaders rather than age grades and age sets, and with this came the political importance of abtirsi, of lineage, and this is when the abtirsi practice began. It was only much later that these lineages were arabized for political purposes to add "baraka" to kingly lineages to help reinforce their rule as Somali clans moved to kingdoms and states in the middle ages.

Afro-Asiatic populations in general have strong patriarchal structures. For instance, E-M78 used to dominate the Maghreb (see Taforalt results) until the E-M81 tribe arose later (2,900 YBP) and took over the Maghreb. This was all pre-Arab times.

 

[roble]

Where is the location of this Wagar tree. I would like to visit this place myself sometime

weger thats the budh women carry after they give birth, traditionally it chases the devil .
its hard more like mahogany.

 

[James Dahl]

Afro-Asiatic populations in general have strong patriarchal biases. For instance, E-M78 used to dominate the Maghreb (see Taforalt results) until the E-M81 tribe arose later (2,900 YBP) and took over the Maghreb. This was all pre-Arab times.

Oh yes absolutely and Cushitic people are no exception, even very traditional Rendille and Oromo clans that are still Waaqist and very patriarchal, the difference isn't in that respect but rather in terms of organization. Cushitic traditional society is more.. "collectivist" is the wrong word but it's hard to find a word for it, it's organized around age sets and age groups where there are these mini-societies of men of the same age group and generation who collectively rule the tribe for a set period of time before handing over power to the next generation.

Somali clans are sort of a compromise between this radical egalitarianism and Arab style totalitarianism where the tribe's Shaykh is an absolute ruler. The Somali clan leaders are expected to lead clans more indirectly and the clan Shir takes precedence where decisions are made collectively.

 

[Factz]

I don't believe so, I think the arabization is a much later phenomenon. Somali clan organization is more hierarchical than traditional Cushitic clan organization like you see in Rendille or Oromo clans and lineage is less important in traditional Cushitic clans and things like moiety, age grade and age set are more important.

I believe the first change in arabization with Islam was a change in clan structures to be oriented more around individual clan leaders rather than age grades and age sets, and with this came the political importance of abtirsi, of lineage, and this is when the abtirsi practice began. It was only much later that these lineages were arabized for political purposes to add "baraka" to kingly lineages to help reinforce their rule as Somali clans moved to kingdoms and states in the middle ages.

False again, you need to stop making your own theories. In the nomadic society, there is something called kinship and you are kin to people who share similar lineage with you. Have you studied the xeer system? It's a pre-Islamic system and a law built around tribalism. You can tell which territory or livestock animals are owned by clan A or clan B. This has always been a Somali thing. The only thing that was Arabized was our lineage after we became Muslims and it could be a political thing as you said. I've given a Somali source of Gadabursi original lineage before Islam came.

Oromos and Rendille have tribes and other nomadic Cushitic groups practise paternal lineage system and it has nothing to do with Arab influence.

 

[James Dahl]

False again, you need to stop making your own theories. In the nomadic society, there is something called kinship and you are kin to people who share similar lineage with you. Have you studied the xeer system? It's a pre-Islamic system and a law built around tribalism. You can tell which territory or livestock animals are owned by clan A or clan B. This has always been a Somali thing. The only thing that was Arabized was our lineage after we became Muslims and it could be a political thing as you said. I've given a Somali source of Gadabursi original lineage before Islam came.

Oromos and Rendille have tribes and other nomadic Cushitic groups practise paternal lineage system and it has nothing to do with Arab influence.

I've studied Xeer, but Xeer is not exactly pre-Islamic it is an organic legal system that developed over centuries of custom and unwritten rules of conduct between clans. There is no single Xeer and it is a series of mostly unwritten conventions and customs.

The Gadabursi lineage you posted has also been Arabized though you see how it ends at Abu Talib. There is a lineage "under" it which traces to Kush and then Nux, but this is also not an original abtirsi either because Kush son of Nux certainly did not live 800 years ago. The Gadabursi abtirsi is quite old and it's one of the older Dir lineages, but if it's accurate then who lived in Dir lands more than 800 years ago? Clearly the same people did, but there's no room in the abtirsi for them to exist.

 

[Factz]

I've studied Xeer, but Xeer is not exactly pre-Islamic it is an organic legal system that developed over centuries of custom and unwritten rules of conduct between clans. There is no single Xeer and it is a series of mostly unwritten conventions and customs.

The Gadabursi lineage you posted has also been Arabized though you see how it ends at Abu Talib. There is a lineage "under" it which traces to Kush and then Nux, but this is also not an original abtirsi either because Kush son of Nux certainly did not live 800 years ago. The Gadabursi abtirsi is quite old and it's one of the older Dir lineages, but if it's accurate then who lived in Dir lands more than 800 years ago? Clearly the same people did, but there's no room in the abtirsi for them to exist.

Every traditional system evolves but that's not the point. Xeer is an ancient law system that adopted some Islamic law and civil law over time. Somali society is traditionally structured around a clan-based system, subdivided into sub-clans and then lineages. The whole bases of Xeer was to establish law and order between the tribes.

No, the Gadabursi source I posted presented the original Somali names for the current fake Arab names. Somali tribes have been mentioned during pre-Islamic times. They are Jiddu, Garre, Tunni, Madigan, Yibir and Dir.

My point is the Somalis are traditionally nomads (kinship society) so they've always practised patrilineality system and my other point is due to Somalis converting to Islam. They Arabized their lineage in order to establish closer ties with the Arabs. You're saying Somalis never practised patrilineality system when our Cushitic nomadic brethrens who aren't Muslims have a tribal base society too so you're wrong in this regard.

 

[James Dahl]

I think we're talking about different things, you're arguing against something I'm not saying. There is a difference between being a patrilinear society and organizing your clans along lineage lines, that's the difference. There was a difference between those two things prior to Islam, and after the two concepts were merged together into one concept.

If abtirsi were truly unbroken and there wasn't a "reset" that occurred about 800 years ago, you would have abtirsi that are 60, 70, 80 generations long or more.

 

[Factz]

I think we're talking about different things, you're arguing against something I'm not saying. There is a difference between being a patrilinear society and organizing your clans along lineage lines, that's the difference. There was a difference between those two things prior to Islam, and after the two concepts were merged together into one concept.

If abtirsi were truly unbroken and there wasn't a "reset" that occurred about 800 years ago, you would have abtirsi that are 60, 70, 80 generations long or more.

No, you said something about Somalis adopting a paternal lineage system from the Arabs. That's what I disagreed on because when you look at the Cushitic nomadic groups, they also practise the same thing Somalis have, even the non-Muslims. That is what I'm arguing about.

When you read Haji Ibrahims book. He says the Somali lineage was reseted because they are claiming to be the descedents of Prophet Muhammed (PBUH). He explains the abtirsi changes after Somalis adopted Islam. Another thing, even with the current lineage system we have. They originally had Somali names. It's complicated because Somali tribes have been recorded in the ancient times.

 

[James Dahl]

This is true, however the lineages in non-Somali Cushitic people have no political or social implications. Your lineage if you are a Rendille or an Oromo has no bearing on what your clan is, who you can marry or who is in charge of the clan. It mostly has significance for certain religious ceremonies or for historical records.

The change I'm referring to is where clan membership and clan leadership are determined by lineage rather than by moiety and age set. This is an adoption of Arab tribal customs into Cushitic clan structure which was a fundamental shift.

 

[NFD]

This is true, however the lineages in non-Somali Cushitic people have no political or social implications. Your lineage if you are a Rendille or an Oromo has no bearing on what your clan is, who you can marry or who is in charge of the clan. It mostly has significance for certain religious ceremonies or for historical records.

The change I'm referring to is where clan membership and clan leadership are determined by lineage rather than by moiety and age set. This is an adoption of Arab tribal customs into Cushitic clan structure which was a fundamental shift.

I'm confused. Are you saying Somalis didnt have clan based groupings as we see today but were organized into groups based on age sets?

 

[NFD]

I think "Somali" was originally not a tribal name but an early word for of "Geeljire", and only rural pastoral tribes were called Somali, urban Somali clans are not referred to as such historically as that was not their occupation. Later on it took on a more general meaning.

That's an interesting theory. Somalis can't agree on anything but agreed to a name for all of us that urban peoples agreed to as well?

It's weird to me how this name wasn't mentioned until fairly recently but we're an old group. When did we agree to be Somalis?

 

[James Dahl]

I'm confused. Are you saying Somalis didnt have clan based groupings as we see today but were organized into groups based on age sets?

Yes, though this is an extrapolation based on related peoples to Somali people who's Waaqist social organization was recorded by historians (Oromo, Rendille) and those who are still largely Waaqist today and still live in a traditional Cushitic society (Rendille and Borana Oromo).

No historical records of the social organization of ancient Somali people prior to Islam survive, though some customs survive into the Islamic era as customs like using wagar wood as a protection from evil.

 

[NFD]

Yes, though this is an extrapolation based on related peoples to Somali people who's Waaqist social organization was recorded by historians (Oromo, Rendille) and those who are still largely Waaqist today and still live in a traditional Cushitic society (Rendille and Borana Oromo).

So clan names existed they just werent that relevant? Thats interesting and seems a more peaceful way to organize us.